When to communicate boundries?

[Depression = 72% of members]

Question for everyone... .I am making a list of boundries i am going to implement as i read the book 'Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist'.  Example... i will not 'own' my wifes emotions anymore.  Our current event started because my wife felt my kids were acting bad.  I disagreed but tried to validate that i could understand her feelings.  I encouraged her to just just do what SHE wanted to and not worry about the kids.  She wanted me to 'stand up for her' and confront the kids.  I refused because i didnt feel like she felt.   In reality i was protecting myself and my kids because if she went to them she would likly tick them off and then she would get mad at them and the spiral would start. Now what i think i should have done is tell her that since i didnt feel as she felt, that she should talk to the kids about it herself... .solve her own emotions rather than expecting me to do it for her.  I should have let her try to solve her emotions.  I think it still would have ended bad but at least i would have started letting her be responsibe for what she felt.

I dont go home right now.  She demanded i leave because of all this.  We communicate in email now.  I think we are both afraid of what happens when we actually talk... .email is safer.

She wants me to appoligize for not 'standing up for her'. 

Now for the question... .Should i respond in email with my boundry saying that I will no longer own what she feels and be expected to fix it... .if she feels something then she is the one responsibe to fix it'  or should i just say  nothing, not respond or appoligize,  and wait for it to 'get better' (not sure it will get better at this point) and then give her my new boundries when the emotions of an event are not raging?  Truthfully, if things were going good and i told her that boundry, it would turn bad very quickly.  She is extreemly sensative about me not 'standing up for her'

I guess my question is how and when should i communicate my new boundries?  Is it ok to start communicating them in the middle of an 'event'?  In reality i am responding to her demand of an appoligy by saying 'i will not appoligise for not trying to fix your emotions... .it is not my responsibility... .it is yours.  From this point forward I will no longer 'own' your emotions.  If you have a problem with our kids, the neighbors, our friends, my friends, my family, etc then you need to talk to them.  I wont be the middle man'

Thoughts?

[HEisable]

Question for everyone... .I am making a list of boundries i am going to implement as i read the book 'Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist'.  Example... i will not 'own' my wifes emotions anymore.  Our current event started because my wife felt my kids were acting bad.  I disagreed but tried to validate that i could understand her feelings.  I encouraged her to just just do what SHE wanted to and not worry about the kids.  She wanted me to 'stand up for her' and confront the kids.  I refused because i didnt feel like she felt.   In reality i was protecting myself and my kids because if she went to them she would likly tick them off and then she would get mad at them and the spiral would start. Now what i think i should have done is tell her that since i didnt feel as she felt, that she should talk to the kids about it herself... .solve her own emotions rather than expecting me to do it for her.  I should have let her try to solve her emotions.  I think it still would have ended bad but at least i would have started letting her be responsibe for what she felt.

I dont go home right now.  She demanded i leave because of all this.  We communicate in email now.  I think we are both afraid of what happens when we actually talk... .email is safer.

She wants me to appoligize for not 'standing up for her'. 

Now for the question... .Should i respond in email with my boundry saying that I will no longer own what she feels and be expected to fix it... .if she feels something then she is the one responsibe to fix it'  or should i just say  nothing, not respond or appoligize,  and wait for it to 'get better' (not sure it will get better at this point) and then give her my new boundries when the emotions of an event are not raging?  Truthfully, if things were going good and i told her that boundry, it would turn bad very quickly.  She is extreemly sensative about me not 'standing up for her'

I guess my question is how and when should i communicate my new boundries?  Is it ok to start communicating them in the middle of an 'event'?  In reality i am responding to her demand of an appoligy by saying 'i will not appoligise for not trying to fix your emotions... .it is not my responsibility... .it is yours.  From this point forward I will no longer 'own' your emotions.  If you have a problem with our kids, the neighbors, our friends, my friends, my family, etc then you need to talk to them.  I wont be the middle man'

Thoughts?

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[Daniell85]

I am kind of having trouble with this myself. My boyfriend has heard the boundaries from me over the years.

He has cheated and continues to try and get me to be ok with him violating boundaries in his actions with other women. I am not ok about it. So we are not talking because I cannot stay calm and polite currently with him due to not protecting myself ( by enforcing my boundaries with him) over the long term.

He told me a couple of weeks ago that he knows how to restore trust between us, but he doesn't "understand why you need it the way you say you do?"

I was advised here that not backing up my boundaries with him puts him in the driver's seat and he will take me over the edge with him until I start enforcing those boundaries.

Ok, I am on board with that totally. Due to his question, I am kind of left with the feeling that this guy literally does not understand anything about boundaries. He doesn't appear to have any of his own.

I keep thinking a discussion needs to take place with him about this, and what is the best way to do it without coming across as demanding or ultimatums or threats?  I am pretty upset atm, so I don't see me trying to talk to him anytime soon. Not sure I can even really call him my boyfriend anymore... .He is waiting for me to calm down and give him an answer. 

[babyducks]

I don't think I have enough information to voice any thoughts yet.  Let me ask a question instead please,  why do think it would be helpful to inform your wife of your boundary?

[MaroonLiquid]

I'm a firm believer in just setting your boundary with yourself and enforcing it.  Telling them gives them chances to either shoot holes in it or see how far they can push it.  I set a boundary that I would have no unhealthy communication with my wife.  I didn't tell her, I just set it and started enforcing it.  I have said before that I would not be abused verbally.  A few minutes ago I had to hang up on her because she lashed out at me.  She didn't yell, but it was still unhealthy.  I think there are times where you have to tell them.  But not every time. 

[TheRealJongoBong]

Due to his question, I am kind of left with the feeling that this guy literally does not understand anything about boundaries. He doesn't appear to have any of his own.

I believe you just hit the nail on the head. Our partners don't have any boundaries, that's why we need to make them ourselves. For HEisable, outlining boundaries when your partner is in peak rage is probably not the best option. I personally cannot communicate anything with my wife when she is in the moment. If I wait until she is more lucid I have a better chance of getting my point across. Also, if she is more lucid I am less likely to start buying into the BS she may start up with, because I am more calm. Your response here

"I will not apoligise for not trying to fix your emotions... .it is not my responsibility... .it is yours.  From this point forward I will no longer 'own' your emotions.  If you have a problem with our kids, the neighbors, our friends, my friends, my family, etc then you need to talk to them.  I wont be the middle man"

is perfect. Have your exit plan prepared in advance, you might need it.

[Daniell85]

I'm not sure that is a boundary he actually has to inform his wife. He can make it to himself, and as each instance comes up, enforce it by stepping out of the drama triangle.

[formflier]

  why do think it would be helpful to inform your wife of your boundary?

Same thoughts... .questions... .


Basic theory... .a boundary controls something you own.  You are not required to ask permission... or inform people what you do with your stuff.

I'm not saying don't tell her... .but if you are going to tell her... .please work it out on the boards (here) first.

Many times it matters "how" we say things.

Boundaries are most effective because of what we do... .not what we say

FF

[babyducks]

'i will not appoligise for not trying to fix your emotions... .it is not my responsibility... .it is yours.  From this point forward I will no longer 'own' your emotions.  If you have a problem with our kids, the neighbors, our friends, my friends, my family, etc then you need to talk to them.  I wont be the middle man'

Thoughts?

Hi Heisable,

I am with MaroonLiquid,  set the boundary for yourself and enforce it.   Don't share it.

I would also not share it using the language you have shared here, and let me explain why.

"I will not apologize for not trying to fix your emotions... ." is very very invalidating.  You are point blank telling your wife she is broken.   

'it is not my responsibility... it is yours."    While this is true, its also can be perceived as harsh.   Have you looked at the lesson about communication?   How you convey the message, is just as important as what the message is.

"From this point forward I will no longer 'own' your emotions."  This is definitely something you should keep private to yourself.   It invalidates your wife.

The last part is fine.   

I would suggest, that some tweaks to the beginning sections so that it looks a little more like this.

You and I see this very differently.  I understand it can feel distressing to be feel unsupported, still in this case I don't share your opinions.  I don't feel responsible to negotiate solutions for you.   If you have a problem with our kids, the neighbors, our friends... .etc

does this makes sense?

[maxsterling]

Regarding your specific issue - I can relate as my wife often complains that I don't "stand up for her".  I just don't understand this, or why she thinks this is my role to fight her battles.  The big issue is with her family (especially dad) where she feels he is insulting her, and I do/say nothing to stop it.  The reality is, if he is insulting her, it is going well under my radar.  It's not like he is screaming or calling her names or being overtly rude.  My feeling is that in these situations, my wife is wanting to me to participate in a "triangle" with me being on one side and her dad on the other.  It's not about me not backing her up, it's about me not participating in the drama triangle (dad is persecutor, her is victim, and she wants me to be rescuer).

My feeling is if I did participate in the triangle, nothing would change except this time I would be involved.  She would still be angry.  There's no possible way to play the role of "rescuer" and meet all of her needs.  Impossible. 

Regarding boundaries in general:  My feeling is it is best just to act when the situation arises, and never use the word "boundary" or state things beforehand.  This will only open up a big can of worms, as the pwBPD will accuse you of being controlling.  And when that happens, your temptation is to JADE, and then things get real bad, real fast.  Another tip is to try avoid using the word "you" when it comes to enforcing a boundary.  That tends to ignite a bomb.  Try to stick to how you feel. 

[HEisable]

Thank you everyone for your thoughts.  I tink there are some great takeaways for me.

I knew my wording of the boundry was wrong. Thanks for rewording it for me.   I usually write what i feel... .dont send it... .rewrite it 10 times and then maybe send it.  This can be good sometimes and bad others.  I feel like there are times when i really should say something but i dont because of fear of what could happen and in the long run i just make it worse.

I like the thought of just enforcing my boundies without communicating them.  That works for most of the boundries.  I can give you 2 examples when it seems to cause more issues if i dont somehow communicate them... .not just enforce them.

The one i posed the question is one.  In reality i have already kind of had this boundry in some ways.  I didnt confront my kids because my wife was upset at them... .i enforced the boundry... .  What i didnt do is tell her why i wasnt going to do it.  That is i believe the source of some of the problem.  Had i communicated why i wasnt going to confront she might start to understand that i am not going to jump in and rescue.  Currently she wants me to tell her i was wrong for not standing up for her.  I can ignore her request and things continue to get worse or i can tell her why (communicate the boundry without calling it a boundry).  Possibly even say i was wrong for not encouraging her to talk to the kids herself.  Communicate that i believe in her ability to deal with it herself and i should have told her that.

In this case i am probably not really communicating the boundry as much as telling her why i enforced the boundry this time.

The 2nd example is that my wife has always tended to run away... .leave the house... .leave the room, etc.  I would eventually go chase her down and try and try to get her to talk and then come back.  If i dont chase her down then later it is an issue because she will say 'why didnt you come after me... .you should have, dont you care?'.  My new boundry is that i will no longer chase her down.  She will have to come back on her own and then we can talk.

The problem is if i dont somehow communicate that i no longer will be responsible to pursue then she will be getting upset because she is waiting for me to come and i dont.  I would rather her say to herself 'he told me he is no longer chasing me down so if i want to talk then i have to return by myself'

Make sense?

[formflier]

  'why didnt you come after me... .you should have, dont you care?'. 

In cases like this... .best not to chase.

Don't debate specifics... .

Give general answers...

"I felt you needed space... ." 

DO NOT explain to her that running away is the wrong way to get your attention... .she will figure it out.

If this doesn't work after a few times...

"Help me understand what you leaving was trying to communicate... "

FF

[byfaith]

my wife will say "you don't take up for me"... .we had a bad blowout on trip out of state this past Friday. Involved me, my wife and mother in law. My wife felt like she was being ganged up on. In reality I had my issues going on in an argument between my wife and I and then my mother in law was spewing some crap from the back seat at my wife.

I didn't "hear" what my mother in law was saying but I did hear a few snippets like "I would have hit her by now" blah blah blah

my mother in law was butting in on the argument my wife and I were having. Anyway I was dealing with my issue with my wife but it culminated with my wife threatening to hit someone.

What happened was after MIL said what she said my wife leaned over and whispered in my ear "take up for me" and I did not. I was told that I had broken her heart.

The next day she told me that she saw me as nothing, not a friend, not a protector and not a confidant and that she was heartbroken. I told her I was sorry for what happened and she told me I didn't mean it and ran out of the room crying hard.

In hindsight I didn't take up for her. Her mom was bad mouthing her. I told my wife last night I could understand how she could have felt being "ganged up on".

But over the past 4 years I have dealt with this "you dont take up for me" thing. It's difficult at times to deal with

[OffRoad]

 HEisable,

I'm coming at this from the viewpoint of a person who wants to have their spouse see their side. IMO, a couple should be mostly a team when dealing with matters: the team doesn't always have to agree, but they do have to respect each others feelings and opinions.

I agree, having her deal with the kids herself is a good idea. By the same token, when most people express their emotions all they really want to to be heard. My thought is that your validation attempts missed the mark. It is evident by what you write that you just plain think your wife was wrong. Except her feelings belong to her, so they aren't wrong.

It's hard to say when I don't know what her problems with the kids are. For all I know, they are being disrespectful to her and you are acting like it is no big deal. That WOULD be a problem for a couple. She should still be the one to deal with it, but if that were the case, you would need to back her up. If she goes to your kids and tells them what her problems are, and then they come back and you take THEIR side, how do you see that playing out?

I remember MIL telling me I had insulted SIL because I said something about her son. I went to apologize to SIL, but SIL told me she wasn't insulted at all. MIL was insulted for some random reason and H told me I was too brusk. He took MIL's side when MIL LIED about who was insulted, as if my manner gave her the right to lie to me and try to make me feel guilty. Circumstances make all the difference.

[babyducks]

  By the same token, when most people express their emotions all they really want to to be heard. My thought is that your validation attempts missed the mark. It is evident by what you write that you just plain think your wife was wrong. Except her feelings belong to her, so they aren't wrong.

I like what OffRoad said here.   What has become clear to me is that my partner never felt heard,  and spent years with people either telling her she had the wrong emotion or too many emotions or need to calm the #$% down.   She is not a stupid women,  she knows she had huge reactions to things, and that her coping mechanism can be faulty.

When I acknowledge her feelings, even when I happen to think they are born from the BPD or from a dsyregulated moment things begin to settle almost immediately.  I don't have to agree with something to validate it.   

What i didnt do is tell her why i wasnt going to do it.  That is i believe the source of some of the problem.  Had i communicated why i wasnt going to confront she might start to understand that i am not going to jump in and rescue.  Currently she wants me to tell her i was wrong for not standing up for her.  I can ignore her request and things continue to get worse or i can tell her why (communicate the boundry without calling it a boundry).  Possibly even say i was wrong for not encouraging her to talk to the kids herself.  Communicate that i believe in her ability to deal with it herself and i should have told her that.

Here is what I do,  it works for me,  your mileage may vary.   I hold very tightly to the truth but I keep it very mild and simple.   To use your case example,  you don't feel like you did anything wrong so I would not apologize.  From what you are describing you feel as if you could have communicated better about what was happening at the moment so you can say that.  You also believe she has the ability to handle these things herself and you could mention that.   

One of the things we work on here in The Lessons is how to diffuse conflict.   Validation goes along way to doing that.   a little invalidation multiples the conflict by a factor of about 5.   try to relax during the conversation.   pwBPD are so sensitive they are excellent at picking up on external signals like frowns, sighs or pauses.