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Author Topic: Wife says she doesn't want me to say romantic stuff during sex  (Read 527 times)
maxsterling
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« on: September 02, 2015, 06:58:13 PM »

Here's a new one:

Wife says she doesn't want me to say romantic stuff during sex, including "I love you".  She says she wants sex to be "primal".  :)uring sex last night, she kept telling me to "stop saying stuff" or "thinking stuff", yet I was silent.  All in all it was a really awkward experience, and I feel really weird about it today.  Really weird.  She tells me that being romantic is a turn off for her.  She also says I am judging her and not letting her be who she wants, and I am shaming her.  Again, I said barely ANYTHING, just silence after she said she does not like to hear romantic stuff.  

I see where this fits in with BPD push/pull and the shame cycle.  But at some points I was just completely uncomfortable, with her claiming I was lying if I said I like dirty sex (?).  Other times she has made comments like she wants to "violate" me.  

And darn - I was starting to feel quite positive and good about things, about enforcing boundaries, and about my own self-care.  And today all day I feel like I was sexually abused... .

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Sunfl0wer
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« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2015, 07:11:39 PM »

Excerpt
And darn - I was starting to feel quite positive and good about things, about enforcing boundaries, and about my own self-care.  And today all day I feel like I was sexually abused....

Max, it sounds like you do not agree/appreciate the parameters set re sex.

This sounds like a violation of what is acceptable to you.

Leaving sex... .  Feeling as tho you have been abused... .Is NOT ok!

Please decide what is ok for YOU in regards to sex, and find a way to set a boundary around that.

Performing in a way that feels abusive will only reinforce a sense of abuse in this dynamic!

(For both of you)

Is this an area that has been approached in you group sessions?  If so, what were the recommendations?

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Skip
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« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2015, 07:55:21 PM »

You weren't sexually abused max.

I hope this is not feeling invalidating, I don't mean to be at all.  I'm trying to help.  We have to be careful what we call abuse or we start victimizing ourselves.

She wanted this style of sexual relation yesterday. Men and women do this and many other thinngs in the course of a relationship.

If you don't like it, wait a few days and explore it with her. What is it al about.  Can there be a mix? Taking turns? Can you connect with it?  Etc.

What do you think?

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Ceruleanblue
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« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2015, 08:01:37 PM »

Not sure if you remember all of my story, but BPDh has always gotten off on hurting me sexually. I'm not talking the normal small hurts I've had with other partners. I get that sex can be rough, but I think both partners have to be on board! I'd always address it, he'd deny it. He used to do tons of porn, but he gave it up(he says) because it was a deal breaker for me.

Well, when we separated one of his things was he wanted to get into BDSM. Doesn't that tie right into painful sex(or the idea of it). I researched, set boundaries, said it was to be just between he and I, and one time he whipped me too hard. I didn't really complain, just made mention of it. Well, shortly after that, all interest fell away for him. He still likes to dominate and hurt me during sex however. I'd love to have rough sex, like I've had in the past, but I don't trust him enough with him already having such a predilection towards it.

Plus, he doesn't want me to be ME during sex, he complains if I am not acting and sounding like a porn star. It's gross, to say the least, and like you, it makes the whole thing NOT romantic, and awkward feeling to me.

I'd bet a lot of people with BPD lean towards the extreme sexually. I mean, it just seems like they do a lot of things impulsively and to the extreme, so why wouldn't sex be the same?
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HappyNihilist
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« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2015, 08:50:37 PM »

max, I'm sorry this left you feeling so uncomfortable and confused. Sex is an important part of a relationship, and it's distressing when something happens to make us feel uncertain in that area of a relationship.

It's difficult to refocus and have a discussion on sex while in the middle of it. I'd recommend bringing it up with her outside of the bedroom.

You didn't say that she asked for painful or degrading acts. Maybe she does want something like that, maybe not. She wants 'primal' sex where you don't overthink things. This can be any number of possible interests, including just a desire for the occasional breathless, animalistic romp.

The best way to find out what she's thinking is to ask. Explore this with her in a neutral setting (i.e., not in bed). Let her talk about what she wants, without asking her 'why.'

Once you have a clearer idea of what she's interested in, then you can more accurately assess it and see how it might work or not work with your own needs and boundaries.
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« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2015, 12:01:04 AM »

You weren't sexually abused max.

I hope this is not feeling invalidating, I don't mean to be at all.  I'm trying to help.  We have to be careful what we call abuse or we start victimizing ourselves.

She wanted this style of sexual relation yesterday. Men and women do this and many other thinngs in the course of a relationship.

If you don't like it, wait a few days and explore it with her. What is it al about.  Can there be a mix? Taking turns? Can you connect with it?  Etc.

What do you think?

Skip, Max said he FELT like he was sexually abused. "Sexual abuse refers to any action that pressures or coerces someone to do something sexually they don’t want to do". His wife wanted him to have sex HER way, not HIS way, so she wanted him to do something sexually that he didn't want to do. Those are his feelings and he's entitled to feel that way.

Max's wife told him to "stop thinking stuff". That's controlling behavior and abusive. She accused him of judging her and shaming her, but she doesn't live in his head. She could not possibly know what he was thinking unless he told her. And if she has made comments like she wants to "violate" him, that IS abuse if it is something he has told her he isn't interested in and she continues to say it. Saying things during sex that are intended to control you IS abuse (unless mutually agreed upon).
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HappyNihilist
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« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2015, 12:18:14 AM »

Skip, Max said he FELT like he was sexually abused.

And this is a valid, real feeling.

However, that doesn't mean that there shouldn't be exploration into that feeling. We can ask ourselves if our feelings are appropriate for the situation - that doesn't mean that our feelings are invalid.

I encourage you, max, to look deeper into that feeling. What about the situation made you feel like you had been sexually abused? What do you think you can do to help prevent feeling that way in the future (e.g., boundaries, communication, etc.)?

"Sexual abuse refers to any action that pressures or coerces someone to do something sexually they don’t want to do". His wife wanted him to have sex HER way, not HIS way, so she wanted him to do something sexually that he didn't want to do.

A spouse wanting to have sex their way instead of the other spouse's way is not sexual abuse.

Based on that perception, then max wanting to have sex HIS way instead of HER way could be considered 'pressuring her to do something sexually that she didn't want to do.' And that's not a fair statement by any means, either.

Wanting does not equal coercing, regardless of the situation.

Max's wife told him to "stop thinking stuff". That's controlling behavior and abusive.

Asking for a partner to 'stop thinking' and 'be primal' during sex is not abusive. It's the expression of a sexual desire. Yes, it may be done clumsily and yes, it may be hurtful, confusing, uncomfortable.

And certainly you have every right not to want to indulge in your wife's desires, if you feel that they are in conflict with your values and boundaries. However, the best way to assess the situation is by gaining knowledge. If you don't understand exactly what it is she's asking for, then you can't be expected to know how to respond to it.
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« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2015, 03:24:37 PM »

We will have at agree to disagree on this. Telling people to stop thinking things is controlling and abusive in every book I have ever read and IMO. Saying you want to violate someone is a threat. Not to mention that Max states he was silent when she kept telling him to "stop saying stuff", so she is accusing him of things he isn't doing. People with PDs don't get a free pass on being abusive.

Should Max address this with his wife? Sure. But that doesn't mean it wasn't abusive or that his feelings were not appropriate for the situation.
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Sunfl0wer
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« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2015, 06:01:25 PM »

This seems like such a delicate/sensitive topic.

I feel cautious to reply, however, I do want to add something.

I feel more cautious of you, Max, confronting your wife on this topic. (Than not confronting her)

I do not see any good to come of that. 

IMHO, your wife is not reasonable.  She does not want to confront or take responsibility for her behavior.  Expressing your hurt/uncomfortable feelings, is likely to be an invitation for more feelings of her to wanting to "violate" you, and/or you to feel abused.  She has little regard for you as a human with his own feelings, thoughts and emotions.  Confronting her with any of these things she already rejects, will likely escalate your current situation.

(There are some situations where it is best to voice your opinions, I do not feel this is one of them.)

I feel that the best course of action is one where you begin to internally decide on some boundaries, how you will and won't be treated, and take responsibility for your own feelings of being "a victim." (I hope this does not sound derogatory, not my intent at all.).

You need to decide what you will and will not accept.  What you want and don't, and begin to start protecting yourself so you feel empowered with enforcing boundaries, vs feeling violated for not having them.

All of this is completely independent of her, and only has to do with you.

It will help to decide ahead of time, what your conditions are for sex (conversations, behavior, and all interactions, etc) , so you know when you will just walk away.

It sounds like you were feeling empowered following group T, which is why I asked about that... .and wonder about how you guys have worked on boundary setting.  I think you may likely just be the type of person that benefits from a collaborative thinking out loud safely approach to get there.

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HappyNihilist
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« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2015, 06:22:29 PM »

I feel more cautious of you, Max, confronting your wife on this topic. (Than not confronting her)

I do not see any good to come of that. 

IMHO, your wife is not reasonable.  She does not want to confront or take responsibility for her behavior.  Expressing your hurt/uncomfortable feelings, is likely to be an invitation for more feelings of her to wanting to "violate" you, and/or you to feel abused. 

I don't recommend confronting her at all. The first thing I would do is ask her what she meant. Just let her explain.

You have a right to your hurt/uncomfortable feelings, max, and you have a right to express them. However, I agree with Sunfl0wer that doing so right now would most likely escalate the situation.

But asking for clarification and listening to her is not confrontational.

Your feelings are valid and real no matter what her intent was. But you can't adequately assess how to respond to her if you don't understand what she's wanting.

This is important for your self-protection. Yes, the situation was confusing and very uncomfortable, but you can take this as an opportunity to learn and try to ensure that you can avoid the same uncomfortable situation later. Because it will come up again. And you don't want to feel hurt and abused again.

The confusion can be eliminated through understanding. Once you understand the situation (what she's asking for), then you can realistically assess whether or not that fits into your values. Then you can establish and communicate your boundaries.

And in having clear boundaries, you can protect and take care of yourself. 
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maxsterling
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« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2015, 10:34:55 AM »

Thanks for the advice, everyone. 

I'm not saying I was sexually abused, but I felt like it.  What i mean by that is that her ways of wanting sex were addressed, and mine dismissed.  Per her, I am not allowed to say romantic stuff during sex, but she requires me to be aggressive in order to be turned on.  And when I said that aggressiveness is a turnoff for me, she claimed I was lying, and that I was only trying to shame her and imply she was a bad person. 

All in all, it felt like I was scared to say "no" to her for fear of verbal or physical abuse, or that she would hurt herself. 

The next day, I just felt non-sexual at all, and had tremendous anxiety of saying "no" to her.  But that evening, I did.  She started talking about her job in a negative way again, and I listened and validated and it turned out to be one of the most constructive conversations we have ever had.  Afterwards, we mutually decided that we were both tired and not in the best of moods for sex, and that was OK.

Last night, we did have sex.  It was certainly awkward for both of us.  Afterwards W said that lately she feels confused when we are intimate, and wishes she wasn't so "screwed up".    I think the issue is that she has issues with sex and emotional closeness.  I was happy to hear her open up about this rather than just blame me. 

All in all, I am starting to understand that if BPD is a spectrum, my wife is on the more severe end, combined with severe anxiety and depression issues.  I used to think she met all DSM criteria except for the dissociation, but now I am starting to see that as a major issue here.  I think that has been what is happening during sex, or what she *wants* to happen, and me saying romantic things is bringing her back to reality.  I'm also recognizing her dysregulations are also dissociation.  Yelling at her students so loud it could be heard down the hall and her completely unaware of it is telling.  I don't think she remembers later how she behaved. 
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« Reply #11 on: September 04, 2015, 12:18:47 PM »

From just this board alone, it seems that sexual issues are common with BPD relationships. Of course that makes sense, since part of BPD is difficulty with emotions, boundaries, fear of abandonment, all which come into play during the most intimate relationships. It makes sense that the relationships that are most effected by BPD are those that are close, and so a sexual relationship that is also emotional would be the most difficult. It also makes sense that a casual, non emotional encounter would be easier for someone with BPD to manage ( by manage I mean their own emotions) than one that is physically and emotionally intimate.

There were issues that were very hurtful to me, but now I realize that they had little to do with me, and much to do with what was going in with my H at the time. I felt like a victim. He was acting according to the term "emotionally abusive" at the time. I wondered how could he do that to me? But in retrospect, he was defending himself against some kind of hurt, imagined or misinterpreted. If I reacted to his behavior, it simply reinforced his feelings. We could stay on that crazy triangle.

This is not to diminish the idea that people can be "victims". There are victims of abuse, the news is full of them. But in a relationship, taking on the victim role can be an invitation on to that triangle. You felt abused Max, but it is very possible that your wife, in the moment, was trying to manage her own discomfort by minimizing the emotions that were overwhelming to her. It may have had nothing to do with you.

Why do we feel emotionally abused? Sometimes it is real- I am a fan of Patricia Evans' books, and I don't think anyone should tolerate abuse of any kind. However, even her books recommend changing our response and how to do that, not to confront the person.  Sometimes it is because the situation triggers our own emotional baggage, and we have trouble regulating that.  I know that my own baggage- with a BPD mom- my own feelings of not being loved, not being good enough, can be triggered by someone close to me- but those are my issues to deal with.

Sex has been a big issue with the two of you. For one, it hasn't been a regular thing, and the other, it is for her, emotionally linked to what sex can lead to and we all know that's how you make a baby. That is an emotional topic for her. ( and you).

You don't have to tolerate feeling abused, but it is possible that this was emotionally stressful for her, and you can let it go and see where letting it go leads to next time.
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