Nearing the Moment of Truth?

[ptilda]

It seems like uBPDh is setting himself up to come home. He's telling everyone (mutual friends and family) that's what he wants, and now he's offering to help with bills and pay for food, and is offering to "taste" my attempts at Haitian cooking which pretty much means some sort of dating for us.

There's now an empty bedroom in the loft since my niece moved out, and an enormous walk-through closet (she used it as her closet AND her toddler's room since it fit a toddler bed nicely on one side with room for a dresser at the end) that he could turn into his recording studio and office. This could be a good first step (after some initial dating). My question is, how do I breach the subject of counseling? He insists that he doesn't share "his stuff" with people. He agreed to see the Haitian pastor at first, but then backed out last minute. Therapy isn't even an option at this point I think.

Anyone have advice on this? I have considered options such as telling him I'm going for counseling from the Haitian pastor to help me better understand him as a Haitian man, set up therapy for myself and keep the door open for him to come, ask him if he has a preference of who to talk to? I know it's going to be a battle, but I don't know if we can survive without it.

Have out there in BPD world been ok taking back your prodigal SO without counseling right away? Do I need to insist on this?

Just being preemptive.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[formflier]

 

I would not broach this with him... .let him continue his momentum.

Be glad that he decides to come home... but not overjoyed. 

The key is to "stay inside" "be more centered than him".

At some point he will agree to go to counseling... .and probably back out... .the key is that you go... .don't argue with him about it.

I'm not saying it should or will be this way forever... .

And there could be a boundary that you need/want to set in the future of I will not be with a man that is not "treating" his issues... .

But... .I think that is a ways off... .

FF

[formflier]

 

Keep your mental health work to yourself... .

FF

[babyducks]

hi ptilda

It seems like uBPDh is setting himself up to come home.

how do you feel about that?   Do you feel like you are ready?  If I remember right you guys had some gut wrenching stuff occur before he left.   

My question is, how do I breach the subject of counseling? He insists that he doesn't share "his stuff" with people. He agreed to see the Haitian pastor at first, but then backed out last minute. Therapy isn't even an option at this point I think.

I'm not sure I am completely understanding you,  do you want his moving back to be conditional on some type of therapy?   That's a fine boundary, if that is the one you've chosen.   I just want to be sure I'm understanding correctly.

Anyone have advice on this? I have considered options such as telling him I'm going for counseling from the Haitian pastor to help me better understand him as a Haitian man, set up therapy for myself and keep the door open for him to come, ask him if he has a preference of who to talk to? I know it's going to be a battle, but I don't know if we can survive without it.

I would absolutely avoid the Haitian pastor/Haitian man route, as that could be seen as wickedly invalidating.   

I would also not ask his preference as to who you talk to.   

I would go with option three, set up therapy for yourself with someone you pick yourself without involving him at all.     Let me explain why.   First, you've described him as very much an isolationist and this is going to be a breach of the citadel walls to have a mental health professional anywhere near his personal life,  likely he will react.  I would concentrate on minimizing conflict.   Second,   I would separate all the individual bits and pieces of this and put them all in their own unique buckets and maintain boundaries between them.   The cultural stuff is important and belongs in it's own bucket, the trauma you have been through is important and deserves it's own bucket, his issues need their own bucket, and your couples issues get their own bucket.   Deal with one bucket at a time. 

I also want to really point out that having your own counselor, therapist, whoever you choose is very important because he/she ends up being an advocate for you ALONE. There is no comingling of loyalties or agendas.  I can't tell you how wonderful it was to have some one in my corner who had my back.   My P's job was to look out for me.  When I was being stupid she would tell me, but mostly she helped me look out for me.  Man that was nice.   

Have out there in BPD world been ok taking back your prodigal SO without counseling right away? Do I need to insist on this?

Just being preemptive.

It's very hard to get some one else to agree to counseling or therapy and have it be productive.   You can lead a horse to water but... .

It looks like even trying the topic of counseling may be premature as your husband's trust issues are still very much in evidence.   You can model the way, go first and as you build a comfort level and knowledge base introduce it further down the road.   Much further down the road.

As to how to discuss it.   I am a big fan of the Yale communication model which goes like this:

When event happens/event happened I feel, I felt  this emotion these emotions so I will take this action.

Using your story to fill in the blanks of the example,

When you and I split up I felt really horrible, so I will be going to see therapist XYZ for a while to talk about and work on my issues.

A Yale statement is pretty hard to argue with.   It's full of "I" statements which are difficult to refute.  I am going to guess he will react to that and then it will be up to you to hold the course, stay steady and do what you said you were going to do.   Likely he will push against that a little, testing.   

'ducks

[formflier]

Deal with one bucket at a time. 

I like this... .

Much better analogy that small bites at a time... .this helps organize things.  Shows that issues that were probably comingled... .really are separate... .more manageable.

FF

[ptilda]

So I brought it up. I actually brought it up because he keeps talking about immigration and whatnot and so I said we will need to show them a minimum of 6 months counseling for them to even consider that this is not fraud in the event that we cannot verify we are in a legitimate marriage a year-and-a-half from now when we have our interview. I also told him that this will make it easier in the divorce proceedings to show them that we are working on our own to try to fix things and if they aren't working it's a legitimate issue and not just . . . say, stubbornness! haha

He again asserted that he tried over and over to get me to counseling and I refused (he set up ONE session for me which I attended, and I attended the second one as well, but he never went again. He refused any other attempt at counseling, intervention, inter-mediation, therapy, or anything of the sort). He said "let's wait for the judge to decide" and out comes the accusations over and over and so many things and lie after lie and I'm feeling sick and exhausted and can barely answer back. I got myself caught up for a minute there, but I think I got control of it later.

To answer some questions, I don't know what I feel about him coming back. People who don't know the mental illness say either, "only move forward and forget about the past" (not knowing that's never actually possible with BPD), or say, "why in the world would you want him back?"

I don't know if therapy is a condition for him moving back. I feel like him paying half the rent is a good condition for that! haha

I like the advice on therapy, and that's where I was leaning already.

I'm going to put the exchange on my other thread since it's more relevant to learning to communicate . . .

[babyducks]

So I brought it up. I actually brought it up because he keeps talking about immigration and whatnot ... .

He again asserted that he tried over and over to get me to counseling and I refused (he set up ONE session for me which I attended, and I attended the second one as well, but he never went again. He refused any other attempt at counseling, intervention, inter-mediation, therapy, or anything of the sort). He said "let's wait for the judge to decide" and out comes the accusations over and over and so many things and lie after lie and I'm feeling sick and exhausted and can barely answer back. I got myself caught up for a minute there, but I think I got control of it later.

okay so now you know it's still too soon to bring it up.   He is still entrenched in his version of things and that might not change for a while.    just to give you a frame of reference, my partner and I are 2 years past our large violent argument and she has finally reached the point of being able to tell me that maybe, just maybe there were miscommunications and misinformation around that argument.   

focus on yourself for now, and let him move at his own pace.   concentrate on feeling better and taking care of you.   if he wants to come along for the ride that's alright.   if he doesn't, let him be.

[formflier]

I actually brought it up because he 

You are going to have to be strong... .bring it up when you believe it smart... .productive... healthy. 

Not because he wants to discuss it.

Babyducks had some great scripted lines in the other thread... .can you use those... .or modify them to make them authentic to you.

FF

[ptilda]

I like those scripted lines. One that seems to be working for me (got it from the Eggshells book) is, "I am unwilling to take more than  half the responsibility for the breakdown of our relationship or half of the responsibility for fixing it." Also, "This is OUR relationship (the word "marriage seems to be a trigger for him), we can fix it together." He seems to really be holding on to these. My husband loves to be needed, but he hates to have things demanded of him. He will care for you selflessly all day long if he believes you appreciate him.

Lots of appreciation for what he does for me. Lots of "thank you," but more "I appreciate it so much" seems to ring deeper with him. Positive feedback on his success with school and work is also met well. Asking for advice is huge, but I honestly can't do that much because he gives it without knowing the situation and then gets upset if I don't take it.

But I'll have to practice those canned answers and get used to defaulting.

[formflier]

"I am unwilling to take more than  half the responsibility for the breakdown of our relationship or half of the responsibility for fixing it."

If it works for you... .keep going

Personally... .I've stayed away from "measuring"... .because that tends to lead to debate.  "You are more responsible than me... " type of thing.

But... .here is the thing... .if it is working... .do it until it stops working. 

If it stops working... .don't fret about why... .if it's not obvious right away... .try to find something different that can work.

FF

[ptilda]

"I am unwilling to take more than  half the responsibility for the breakdown of our relationship or half of the responsibility for fixing it."

If it works for you... .keep going

Personally... .I've stayed away from "measuring"... .because that tends to lead to debate.  "You are more responsible than me... " type of thing.

But... .here is the thing... .if it is working... .do it until it stops working. 

If it stops working... .don't fret about why... .if it's not obvious right away... .try to find something different that can work.

FF

The REASON I think it's working is because he is unable to recognize any responsibility on his part. Now he's faced with the reality and is starting to change his tune a bit. I think there's a reason it's in the book. There are some other phrases (in the books and elsewhere) I haven't tried because they don't seem to work for our situation.

[ScorpioLaw]

It seems like uBPDh is setting himself up to come home. He's telling everyone (mutual friends and family) that's what he wants, and now he's offering to help with bills and pay for food, and is offering to "taste" my attempts at Haitian cooking which pretty much means some sort of dating for us.

There's now an empty bedroom in the loft since my niece moved out, and an enormous walk-through closet (she used it as her closet AND her toddler's room since it fit a toddler bed nicely on one side with room for a dresser at the end) that he could turn into his recording studio and office. This could be a good first step (after some initial dating). My question is, how do I breach the subject of counseling? He insists that he doesn't share "his stuff" with people. He agreed to see the Haitian pastor at first, but then backed out last minute. Therapy isn't even an option at this point I think.

Anyone have advice on this? I have considered options such as telling him I'm going for counseling from the Haitian pastor to help me better understand him as a Haitian man, set up therapy for myself and keep the door open for him to come, ask him if he has a preference of who to talk to? I know it's going to be a battle, but I don't know if we can survive without it.

Have out there in BPD world been ok taking back your prodigal SO without counseling right away? Do I need to insist on this?

Just being preemptive.

I knew a friend, Jess from CT. That married a Hatian man. He was very quiet, almost very isolated.

So I also think not only will you be fighting the BPD, but the culture he is from. So I think, breaking down his culture barriers per say would be the first step.

[ptilda]

Agreed. That's why I tried to push for meeting with the Haitian pastor (and did meet with him and his wife myself). Because most Americans look at this with cultural filters and can't understand some of the things that other Haitians find normal.

Unfortunately H saw this as me "ordering around my little boy." So it's a real challenge.

[formflier]

  (and did meet with him and his wife myself)

What did you learn?  How did your outlook change?

[ptilda]

  (and did meet with him and his wife myself)

What did you learn?  How did your outlook change?

The reaction to me calling the police. They said I was right to do it, but both reacted when I told them. In Haiti it's the worst betrayal to call the police on someone. Here the worst betrayal is probably along the lines of calling your wife a stupid b* and hitting her over and over.