Push/Pull and how often it happens?

[Ceruleanblue]

I've read quite a bit about the whole push/pull dynamic, but I'm still left with questions.

My BPD/APD... .I don't even know what disorder he has anymore(as it seems more severe than BPD), seems to do the push/pull frequently. Not just every few days, or weeks, but several times within a single day at times. Not every day, but there are times it does happen every day for a long stretch. Same as with the dysregulations, and painting me black.

I never know which way is up, and it's beyond draining. I've tried to just not react strongly to either, but that doesn't seem to make things better. It's like he wants me kissing his butt when he wants that, then he'll push me away, so he can mope or do his own thing. My feelings or needs don't enter the equation at all(they do to ME though, as I've been looking after me and my needs more since we reconciled last year).

Is this a trait of BPD that DBT can help with? Of course he's not really working his DBT at all, but he's made recent promises to start. I think this is just fear talking though, because he knows I've finally decided his threats of divorce actually sound like ME being released from prison. He's changing tactics for now.

How best to deal with push/pull, and also, how often does your pwBPD display this trait? Is it fast cycling, or more infrequent?

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[maxsterling]

  I feel for you.  I know exactly what you are talking about, and how draining this is.

To answer your question, I sometimes deal with the push and pull literally seconds apart, and even simultaneously, and several times per day is typical.  For example, last night she wanted me to help her grade papers and enter grades into the computer system.  At one point, she became so frustrated and started cursing, and asked me to show her how to use the computer system.  I looked at the computer screen for maybe 15 seconds, she became irate that I had not solved the problem yet, yanked the computer away, and then was frustrated that I was not helping.  Then she demanded I stop looking at the computer screen, and told me to just "go away".  So, I started to get back up, and she then begged me to stay and help.  Yikes. 

My feeling is that the rapid cycle in my wife comes from extreme feelings of anxiety.  Anxiety so extreme she is literally racing and has no idea what she wants or needs.  DBT can likely help with this, but in cases this extreme I feel that medication is probably required here. 

[jynx]

My ex was more of a "runner".  He started out with the silent treatment, I got used to that.  Then he started "disappearing".  Told me that he was punishing me. 

Rapid cycle I remember this a little also.  He was raging at me, I took out my pad and pen and started to write things done that he said was wrong with me.  I read it back to him also, and he agreed. 

He got a phone call from his therapist.  Took short phone call out in the garage, came back in and asked me if I wanted to go out to dinner.  ummm?

My ex's cycles were usually 3 weeks on (in the hate you mode) and maybe a day or two, sometimes just hours (in the I will never leave you mode).

Remember, I was married for 27 years, so it may not be that bad for you. 

I did try all of the tools here, didn't know that then, was just trying to keep myself safe.  It didn't work. 

If I walked away, he followed me, if I told him I would talk about it later, he wouldn't let it go, if I agreed with him, or tried to validate him, he told me I was being sarcastic. 

Again, remember I am from the other side.  I left. 

Take what you can, and leave the rest.

[Ceruleanblue]

I think of all the traits, the push/pull is hardest for me to understand. Well, other than the sick pleasure my husband gets out of hurting me(this is why I question if it's not APD, and not truly BPD). I mean, even the hateful things, I see that he does get sick pleasure or feelings of control when he thinks he's hurt me, but what does he get out of the push/pull?

Maybe they don't do it to get anything, maybe it's just fear based when they are pulling you back, because they think you've pulled away, and maybe it's them keeping their distance out of fear of us getting too close when they push us away? I still have trouble wrapping my mind around that though, because it seems like if it was that simple, they'd figure it out? The constant roller coaster of the push/pull is just dizzying. There is no predictability due to it.

What is so hilarious, is that I chose BPDh in large part because his emotions were so steady and laid back. It's just like a cruel joke. He knew I was looking to avoid an angry man, due to my past marriage of 18 years, so he played the role. Now I know why his son kept saying ":)ad what is up with you, you never act like this". I thought his son was teasing, or trying to make trouble for him, because they were always harassing each other. Now I know, he actually was poking his Dad, because he could see that his Dad was faking "nice", "calm", "patient", "kind", "slow to anger"... .

[cm3557]

The push/pull is really hard to deal with.  Mine used to be longer stretches between where all the sudden he'd flip and say that I "don't actually love him and have lied about everything and am playing games... ." (on and on with accusations) followed with complete cut off of communication.  He'd (like clock work) come back around a week later.

I've also literally had him break up with me over the phone... .then when i hang up and agreed it was over he called 34 times and sent messages and messages about "our love" and "how could *i* do this to HIM?"... .(repeat this over text messaging a few times as well)

Another occasion we had plans and he all the sudden canceled because during that day it took me an hour to respond to one of his text messages.  That was enough to send him down the spiral.  When i got to his house he wouldn't let me inside and wouldn't answer the phone.  Just would text horrible things about how he wasn't letting me in and i don't actually care about him and have just been using and manipulating him.  I stayed at the door a while but then finally said "i'd had it and that we were through".  He showed up at my house, called 86 times, sent 40 text messages using every tactic.  i didn't respond to him that night. he sat outside my house all night.

I was working out of town and he was going to come visit.  we got a hotel room, were looking forward to a romantic weekend... .when he got there, said he didn't want to see me because "i don't love him and he felt like a pathetic idiot" and wouldn't let me in the hotel.  Told me he was going to commit suicide.  So i got the hotel desk manager to let me in.  I was greeted with hostility and him telling me to get out... .when i finally did try to leave, he blocked the door, cried, begged me, told me how much he loved me, then finally pushed me toward the wall and asked if i "wanted to be scared of him"... .

My dear, the list goes ON AND ON of instances like this.  It doesn't stop. 

As our relationship has gone on, the splitting has been continuing to get more frequent, but less severe... .no communication cut- off.  But i think that's because i set a FIRM boundary that if he did that, there was no coming back.

its literally INSANE.

Sadly, I think its just unpredictable. I wish i had great advice for you, but truth is, im in the same mess asking the same questions.  Take care of yourself!

[Ysabel]

What I have found  works for me to combat the crazy insanity of hwBPD's push/ pull (more like shove/yank) is to lower my expectations of what he is capable (or willing) to give, and live a very full and rich life outside of our marriage. I still get resentful and sad, lonely for a marriage that is fulfilling emotionally. I talk it out with friends and family, I now never go to him when I am in need or vulnerable because he sees that expression of need as a criticism of him. He never ceases to amaze me with just how self absorbed he is. I can't remember the last time he asked me how I am (I think it was about 6 weeks ago over the phone).

My advice is to determine to be happy regardless of how he is acting, don't spend too much time around him and pursue your education like you have talked about recently. You are a good writer, maybe an English degree!

[unicorn2014]

The push/pull is really hard to deal with.  Mine used to be longer stretches between where all the sudden he'd flip and say that I "don't actually love him and have lied about everything and am playing games... ." (on and on with accusations) followed with complete cut off of communication.  He'd (like clock work) come back around a week later.

I've also literally had him break up with me over the phone... .then when i hang up and agreed it was over he called 34 times and sent messages and messages about "our love" and "how could *i* do this to HIM?"... .(repeat this over text messaging a few times as well)

Another occasion we had plans and he all the sudden canceled because during that day it took me an hour to respond to one of his text messages.  That was enough to send him down the spiral.  When i got to his house he wouldn't let me inside and wouldn't answer the phone.  Just would text horrible things about how he wasn't letting me in and i don't actually care about him and have just been using and manipulating him.  I stayed at the door a while but then finally said "i'd had it and that we were through".  He showed up at my house, called 86 times, sent 40 text messages using every tactic.  i didn't respond to him that night. he sat outside my house all night.

I was working out of town and he was going to come visit.  we got a hotel room, were looking forward to a romantic weekend... .when he got there, said he didn't want to see me because "i don't love him and he felt like a pathetic idiot" and wouldn't let me in the hotel.  Told me he was going to commit suicide.  So i got the hotel desk manager to let me in.  I was greeted with hostility and him telling me to get out... .when i finally did try to leave, he blocked the door, cried, begged me, told me how much he loved me, then finally pushed me toward the wall and asked if i "wanted to be scared of him"... .

My dear, the list goes ON AND ON of instances like this.  It doesn't stop. 

As our relationship has gone on, the splitting has been continuing to get more frequent, but less severe... .no communication cut- off.  But i think that's because i set a FIRM boundary that if he did that, there was no coming back.

its literally INSANE.

Sadly, I think its just unpredictable. I wish i had great advice for you, but truth is, im in the same mess asking the same questions.  Take care of yourself!

can I ask if your still with this person ? I can really relate to what you said and appreciate the descriptions. It sounds like you had good firm boundaries. It's always so helpful to hear others describe behavior I've experienced myself.

[Ceruleanblue]

What I have found  works for me to combat the crazy insanity of hwBPD's push/ pull (more like shove/yank) is to lower my expectations of what he is capable (or willing) to give, and live a very full and rich life outside of our marriage. I still get resentful and sad, lonely for a marriage that is fulfilling emotionally. I talk it out with friends and family, I now never go to him when I am in need or vulnerable because he sees that expression of need as a criticism of him. He never ceases to amaze me with just how self absorbed he is

Yes, I'm doing all this, but I still end up wondering how best to deal with the push/pull. It just seems there would be some way to lessen it, by MY actions? It's weird, but it seems by living my own fuller life(meaning without much involvement from him), and having other people I talk to, instead of him, it seems like it escalates the push/pull? It's almost like he just wants me there, lonely, and alone, full time for when he has need of me. It seems like he gets worried he'll lose me the more independent I become.

Also, my BPDh also sees any needs I have an "neediness", and uses that label to hurt me, or like your BPD  he then feels criticized.

I have a job interview Monday, and I bet if I get the job, he's going to start worrying about men I meet, and worry that I'm moving further from him. Maybe not though. One thing I've learned is that he can be unpredictable.

[MaroonLiquid]

What I have found  works for me to combat the crazy insanity of hwBPD's push/ pull (more like shove/yank) is to lower my expectations of what he is capable (or willing) to give, and live a very full and rich life outside of our marriage. I still get resentful and sad, lonely for a marriage that is fulfilling emotionally. I talk it out with friends and family, I now never go to him when I am in need or vulnerable because he sees that expression of need as a criticism of him. He never ceases to amaze me with just how self absorbed he is

Yes, I'm doing all this, but I still end up wondering how best to deal with the push/pull. It just seems there would be some way to lessen it, by MY actions? It's weird, but it seems by living my own fuller life(meaning without much involvement from him), and having other people I talk to, instead of him, it seems like it escalates the push/pull? It's almost like he just wants me there, lonely, and alone, full time for when he has need of me.

This is the misery loves company aspect of this disorder. 

It seems like he gets worried he'll lose me the more independent I become.

Of course he does.  I believe my wife is in this also with me, however, I continue to be a part as much as I can.

Also, my BPDh also sees any needs I have an "neediness", and uses that label to hurt me, or like your BPD  he then feels criticized.

yeah, because they don't know how, can't, or won't, properly fill that need and it makes them feel guilty.  They have to put that on someone.

I have a job interview Monday, and I bet if I get the job, he's going to start worrying about men I meet, and worry that I'm moving further from him. Maybe not though. One thing I've learned is that he can be unpredictable.

This is his problem and yes, they can be unpredictable.