Need help validating

[Jessica84]

So... .I can tell I'm invalidating him. Not on purpose, but I'm validating the way I prefer, not the way he needs... .

When I'm stressed or depressed, here is what I find invalidating:

- calm down

- cheer up

- take a break

- relax

- look on the bright side

- things will get better, have some faith

- it isn't so bad

- don't be down

- etc

Validating me would look more like this:

- that sucks, sorry you're going thru this


My uBPDbf is the opposite. I think he prefers the meaningless platitudes. If someone told me to "relax" when I have a to-do list a mile long, my emotions would escalate! And saying "cheer up" or "hang in there" just seems so dismissive. However well-meaning, all I hear is "blah blah blah, be happy, you're bringing me down".

Reminds me of a few years ago when my non-BPD friend's mom died. Everyone was telling her "she's at peace now" or "in a better place", "she's no longer suffering", etc.  I couldn't do that to her. Those are all nice things to say, but I could tell it was making her feel worse. I did the "she's not in pain anymore" thing, but as soon as I said "this sucks. I'm so sorry. I wish she'd come back!" she felt better. I validated her feelings, rather than saying the "right things".

With BPD, it's not so simple. My bf told me he wants more words of encouragement, he wants me to tell him "everything is going to be ok". How can I know that? I'm no good at making empty assurances. After about 15 minutes of being berated for saying the "wrong words" I replied with "fine, write me a script, tell me exactly what you want to hear"... .he got mad... .but he got over it.

Still, I'd like to do better. I guess I need to figure out a way to validate his negative feelings, while also being encouraging, positive, uplifting... .How do I do that?

Like when he complains about how his new staff is slow and screwing things up at work, all I can think is "sorry, that must be frustrating"... .Or when he is feeling really overwhelmed and up against a deadline, there I go with the "yes, that does sound overwhelming"... .how can I make that sound more positive?

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[thisagain]

I don't think you could do this enough to satisfy him. It doesn't seem like he's really looking for validation, he's looking for you to take on the burden of soothing his unpleasant emotions.

I doubt he'd feel better if you said "that does sound overwhelming but I know you can do it!". He might even start arguing with you about how he CAN'T do it because everything is TERRIBLE and everyone else is screwing things up.

[Jessica84]

LOL! Yep, I can see that exact reaction from him.

But there have been times when I've let the silver lining clichés slip, and gotten very grateful responses - where he's even been apologetic for his negativity and thanked me for being positive and encouraging. I'm just no good at empty Hallmark expressions... .But, they work on him, even if I find them dismissive. So more "cheer up" and less "that sucks" seems to be the answer 

[Cat Familiar]

I've had very similar experiences with my husband, Jessica. Sometimes he's looked at me with this childlike expression and asked if "things would ever be OK?"

I think how the fu@k would I know?

So, at those times I guess he wants ":)on't worry Honey, it will all work out."

Other times he wants, "Yeah, that's really awful."

It's like throwing a dart at a target. Sometimes it hits the bullseye, sometimes it misses and puts a hole in the wall.

[OffRoad]

I go with "I'd be overwhelmed, too! But I have faith that you can figure this out."

I have told this to my son, as well, and he always says "Really? You do?" and I say "Of course I do. You're a capable person!"

Show that you understand how they feel, then toss the ball right back to them so they can hit it out of the ballpark.

[lovers knot]

I agree with OffRoad here. I'd say something similar, as well; "Oh, I can only imagine; I'd totally be overwhelmed by that! But, knowing the person that I know, the capable person that I am familiar with, you will figure it all out, for sure." I basically re-phrased OffRoad's suggestive comment there, I just realized, but I know that it will work for you, and I hope it does.

I've realized over my entire life, I've had a great deal of patience, compassion, empathy, sympathy for Individuals, in general, and before I really understood and discerned the psychological meanings, the deeper aspects, the broader complex spectrum of "Validation," this is something that I have always done with other people! This didn't strike me as true until my 'experience' with my dear friend who has BPD and all of my investigative research and studies into it all.

Some people are just naturally "understanding," and will validate naturally, but a true friend will always speak the Truth, as well, but always in a loving manner.

One thing that I've pondered often is the idea of validating for the sake of trying to keep the connection together, even if you don't believe in what you're validating. Minor example would be saying, "It's okay," when in reality it's NOT "okay." Hurtful behavior is torturous. But, validating for THEIR own benefit, or because you care enough to try and keep the connection going, or to repair the connection, whatever it may be, isn't always easy.

Another example would be shrugging off having been given the ST or having been ignored for long stretches of time, and pretending like it wasn't hurtful, specifically to validate them so that you do not trigger anything else.

I do believe in the old attage of "forgive and forget" though, so that helps to lighten the load in different ways... .

[HappyNihilist]

I don't blame you, Jessica - empty reassurance feels, well, empty. It goes against your values to offer hollow platitudes. And even though he may 'want' the assurance that everything will be ok, giving honest validation is important.

Like when he complains about how his new staff is slow and screwing things up at work, all I can think is "sorry, that must be frustrating"... .Or when he is feeling really overwhelmed and up against a deadline, there I go with the "yes, that does sound overwhelming"... .how can I make that sound more positive?

Is he good at his job? (I'm assuming he is, if he's in a leadership position.) My exBPDbf was very good at his job, he was a supervisor, but people annoyed him and disappointed him often. I would try to validate him by saying something like, "That must be very frustrating, having to deal with (whatever - usually perceived incompetence). You're great at what you do, and I know you'll be able to handle this." Reminding him of his own strengths and capability seemed to help him refocus.

One thing that works very well is pointing to concrete evidence. If he's overwhelmed by a deadline, for instance, you might say something like, "That sounds stressful, I understand where you'd feel overwhelmed. I have faith that you'll make it work, because you always do. Look at (name a specific instance or two)." It's hard to argue with facts. Plus it reminds him that he is capable, even in the face of overwhelming stress.

This turns the focus from him relying solely on you for validation and assurance - as well as trying to solve his problems for him (which I don't think you do) - while still validating that his feelings are real and important.

[LivingWBPDWife]

Jessica,

I find it very hard to offer empty platitudes as well. But, this is what I am learning, we are RATIONAL -- BPDs are not. Thus, what we would find not helpful is what helps them. So, you simply have to bite your tongue and offer, empty, non-productive help. It's really hard not to try and actually tell the truth, or say something useful, but this will in most cases engage the BPD, and no amount of logic, rationality will get them to your side. So, the only way to be helpful is simply to keep them from raging or getting worst and simply validate them, encourage and from my point of view "enable" them more. And this is a very hard thing for me to swallow.

Seems to me by validating their distorted views, or saying things that would have no meaning to a rational non-BPD and probably hurt their feelings -- the BPD simply is looking for a fight or something to make you into the villian, so don't give it to him.

What sucks is you feel like you can never offer and real solace to them -- and maybe we can't until they are in recovery.

What's worst is since BPDs have immature and underdeveloped emotions they have a really hard time, if not impossible time offering any kind of sympathy or empathy to you. My mother died a couple years ago, and my BPD wife literally just looked at me, and had no idea what to do. And then interestingly said things like "what do you want me to say?" -- again, she didn't really understand how I might feel, but was looking out for herself and didn't want to take a chance of offering any original thoughts or comments, and wanted me to tell her what to say to make ME feel good -- just crazy.

I just did a counciling session today, and although our councilor knows that I believe my wife is BPD, he doesn't care, he is all about finding out HOW to make each person happy and learn to communicate to the other. In my case, I am learning BPD-Speak. And its very hard since its counter intuitive. My best advice is anything that sounds reasonable, heartfelt, or rational, be careful of, especially RATIONAL -- instead, I am learning to simply reflect and offer ZERO rational or helpful commentary... .for example, normally I might be like this:

BPD wife: My dog was hit by a car, I feel really bad.

Me: I am really sorry sweetie, but I told you so many times to close the fence, but he is ok, and will pull thru.

BPD wife: You just don't understand, you are so mean.

Me: Sweetie, what did I do? I was just telling you I am so sorry, but I don't want this to happen again, and it could have been avoided if you close the door.

Here's the right way for a BPD:

BPD wife: My dog was hit by a car, I feel really bad.

Me: I am so sorry, you must feel terrible, but luckily, he is ok, and that's good news.

Now, 1 week later:

BPD wife: My dog was hit by a car, he is dead.

Me: I am so sorry, you must feel terrible, is their anything I can do?

Of course, if I could just be rational and tell her to CLOSE THE DAMN door, the 2nd event could have been avoided, but it DOESN'T matter, you can't reason with a BPD, trying to explain anything to them, or rationalize or help them avoid future mistakes is usually futile. In other words, you have to let them hurt themselves and others unless its total life and death. Otherwise, they are going to attack you.

So, I think what I am learning is avoid conflict, advice, lecturing, rationality, any deep conversation, and always offer simple, surface remarks and validations -- that's all they can handle until they get into recovery... .

Finally, I have tried what HappyNihilist says, and I thought it would work, but backfired -- my BPD wife distorts truth, past, and just about everything to make herself feel the absolute most worthless, so I find myself "talking her into" believing that she can do something, or has done a good job and people like her, it backfires a lot on me. So, ironically, I am finding FACTS, and reality to be not as useful as you might think - the BPD just distorts them to fit things and that means in a bad way, so watch out.

All good intentions with a BPD seem futile... .but, I would imagine each is different like anything, my BPD HATES! facts and history lessons WOW -- she rages when I tell her. They WANT to feel bad, its part of their cycle and by offering reality, you are destroying that cycle, so be careful, its best to enable it by just agreeing and offering the empty platitude. At least in my case... .

[waverider]

Combine the two... S.E.R.T... .Support Empathy and Reasurance with a twist of Truth

eg "That must be really hard, I can see it really gets you down, hopefully things will be better in the morning, and it may not seem as bad and you could find it easier to solve after a good nights sleep."

[waverider]

If you simply throw platitudes at them on demand you will set a precedent and reinforce their dependency on them.

[Jessica84]

Thank you all so much for all the helpful responses! All very insightful. I have incorporated some meaningless speech into my SET, but with varying degrees of success. I get frustrated that what works one time doesn't work the next.

Here's the cliff notes version:

Me: Hang in there

Him: Thanks, you are sweet

Me: Hang in there

Him: I want to hang myself

[an0ught]

So... .I can tell I'm invalidating him. Not on purpose, but I'm validating the way I prefer, not the way he needs... .

When I'm stressed or depressed, here is what I find invalidating:

- calm down

- cheer up

- take a break

- relax

- look on the bright side

- things will get better, have some faith

- it isn't so bad

- don't be down

- etc

Validating me would look more like this:

- that sucks, sorry you're going thru this


My uBPDbf is the opposite. I think he prefers the meaningless platitudes. If someone told me to "relax" when I have a to-do list a mile long, my emotions would escalate! And saying "cheer up" or "hang in there" just seems so dismissive. However well-meaning, all I hear is "blah blah blah, be happy, you're bringing me down".

Reminds me of a few years ago when my non-BPD friend's mom died. Everyone was telling her "she's at peace now" or "in a better place", "she's no longer suffering", etc.  I couldn't do that to her. Those are all nice things to say, but I could tell it was making her feel worse. I did the "she's not in pain anymore" thing, but as soon as I said "this sucks. I'm so sorry. I wish she'd come back!" she felt better. I validated her feelings, rather than saying the "right things".

You seem to have a good sense of what validation can be  .

With BPD, it's not so simple. My bf told me he wants more words of encouragement, he wants me to tell him "everything is going to be ok". How can I know that? I'm no good at making empty assurances. After about 15 minutes of being berated for saying the "wrong words" I replied with "fine, write me a script, tell me exactly what you want to hear"... .he got mad... .but he got over it.

PwBPD are experts in sensing invalidation and invalidating others. They do struggle however with regulating their emotions since they don't have a clue about proper validation.

Still, I'd like to do better. I guess I need to figure out a way to validate his negative feelings, while also being encouraging, positive, uplifting... .How do I do that?

Like when he complains about how his new staff is slow and screwing things up at work, all I can think is "sorry, that must be frustrating"... .Or when he is feeling really overwhelmed and up against a deadline, there I go with the "yes, that does sound overwhelming"... .how can I make that sound more positive?

How do I sell black as white and sound convincing? You can trust your intellect and senses and speak with conviction or you trust the hints of your partner and try to shoot the moving target.

Here's the cliff notes version:

Me: Hang in there

Him: Thanks, you are sweet

Me: Hang in there

Him: I want to hang myself

Moving fast indeed.

PwBPD are often in the habit of invalidating themselves. Our society mainstream is often promoting invalidating pep talk. It pays to listen to our partners but often it pays more to listen to their actions than to their words. His actions are proof that his requested approach is predictably not working.

Now finding the right way to validate our partner is a bit of poking around in the dark. Often simply voicing an emotion can help - but sometimes the pwBPD can perceive this as psycho-babel and be invalidated. It pays to remember that validation is all about connecting, paying attention and active listening. United for Now made this great post back where she listed the different ways we can validate: https://bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-dont-be-invalidating .msg810293#msg810293