Idealized and Devalued - Healing and Ending my marriage

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Good Afternoon fellow Recover'ers - Thank you all for being here and sharing your stories - I have benefited so much!

I have been going through a particularly difficult phase of recovery - she moved out 4 months ago and we are trying to finalize a divorce.   I don't want to get into the details but I have been asking myself why is this all so hard to do and why I struggle to accept that this marriage simply did not work.  

I believe I have a new insight for me and not one I have seen on this board before (although it could have been and I missed it).

I recently realized that during the Idealization phase of my marriage I healed from a significant amount of childhood wounds; a healing that was directly attributable to her loving-idealizing me and sticking with me while I was working through emotionally complex issues.  This healing was not something I could have completed in a therapeutic environment, it could only happen in the context of a loving relationship.

My interpretation of her actions was "true undying love".  And it is true, she did/does have true love for me; but the "rub" is that once I got up on my feet and started being an equal, it was intimidating for her and the flip side of the idealizing reared its head and that was the devaluation - putting me back down in my place.

This pattern of being knocked down - and then idealized

Then getting back up - and then being devalued

repeated over and over.  Given my core wounds, each time I was knocked down I kept thinking that I had more to learn and fix about myself.  And happily - I really did heal some deep core wounds throughout this interplay.

I now see her devaluing me as an attempt to keep us away from emotional intimacy (aka be in control - emotional safety).  So, once I figured out how to stand up on my own and stay up (which only took 10 short years), she began a permanent withdrawal campaign (no longer safe) that lead to my being painted black along with the entire 10 year marriage.  Almost like saying telling me, if you will not accept my devaluing you then I will just paint the entire marriage black and remove you from the picture entirely.

I had concluded that her idealization of me indicated how important the marriage was to her and that she would do anything for it.  But what I am now thinking is that she probably just felt more comfortable being in control in what started as an imbalanced marriage to begin with.  

During the marriage she begged and pleaded for me to get therapeutic help - and I did - and it worked.  Thought I was doing all the right things to show my love.  I don't believe that either of us thought that my getting better would be our demise.  In fact, I was sure it was the missing piece!  

I am curious:

Does anyone else here feel like the idealization phase helped them heal some of their core wounds?  

And

Do you feel like your BPD r/s has been so hard to get past because sorting out the extremely mixed messages of "I love you - go away" was played out so subtly?

[joeramabeme]

Good Afternoon fellow Recover'ers - Thank you all for being here and sharing your stories - I have benefited so much!

I have been going through a particularly difficult phase of recovery - she moved out 4 months ago and we are trying to finalize a divorce.   I don't want to get into the details but I have been asking myself why is this all so hard to do and why I struggle to accept that this marriage simply did not work.  

I believe I have a new insight for me and not one I have seen on this board before (although it could have been and I missed it).

I recently realized that during the Idealization phase of my marriage I healed from a significant amount of childhood wounds; a healing that was directly attributable to her loving-idealizing me and sticking with me while I was working through emotionally complex issues.  This healing was not something I could have completed in a therapeutic environment, it could only happen in the context of a loving relationship.

My interpretation of her actions was "true undying love".  And it is true, she did/does have true love for me; but the "rub" is that once I got up on my feet and started being an equal, it was intimidating for her and the flip side of the idealizing reared its head and that was the devaluation - putting me back down in my place.

This pattern of being knocked down - and then idealized

Then getting back up - and then being devalued

repeated over and over.  Given my core wounds, each time I was knocked down I kept thinking that I had more to learn and fix about myself.  And happily - I really did heal some deep core wounds throughout this interplay.

I now see her devaluing me as an attempt to keep us away from emotional intimacy (aka be in control - emotional safety).  So, once I figured out how to stand up on my own and stay up (which only took 10 short years), she began a permanent withdrawal campaign (no longer safe) that lead to my being painted black along with the entire 10 year marriage.  Almost like saying telling me, if you will not accept my devaluing you then I will just paint the entire marriage black and remove you from the picture entirely.

I had concluded that her idealization of me indicated how important the marriage was to her and that she would do anything for it.  But what I am now thinking is that she probably just felt more comfortable being in control in what started as an imbalanced marriage to begin with.  

During the marriage she begged and pleaded for me to get therapeutic help - and I did - and it worked.  Thought I was doing all the right things to show my love.  I don't believe that either of us thought that my getting better would be our demise.  In fact, I was sure it was the missing piece!  

I am curious:

Does anyone else here feel like the idealization phase helped them heal some of their core wounds?  

And

Do you feel like your BPD r/s has been so hard to get past because sorting out the extremely mixed messages of "I love you - go away" was played out so subtly?

[ArleighBurke]

I've been married 15years.

I think in the early days my wife was in control of the marriage. And she devalued me all the time - blaming me for all relationship problems - and asking that I seek help. The devaluing could have been to prevent emotional intimacy, but i think it was just an excuse to stop her having to look at herself (if she can blame all the problems on me then she doesn't have to do anything different).

Now that i want to be more in control (of me) I think that triggers her fear of 'being controlled' or possibly potential abandonment (she tells me she feels 'unsafe' - which i think is the same). I also think that since I don't "accept her blame" for things (because i have improved through therapy) that also increases her discomfort (because if i don't accept blame then she has to consider that perhpas it's her... .).

Even if I didn't have the kids, I'm not sure if i could leave her or not. I think a lot of me feels sympathy - that it's not her fault she has this problem - and I hope i make her life just a little better.

[Mutt]

The beginning of the relationship is a memory that I think that I'll carry for a very long time Joe. I had a rough upbringing and if I think about it I was subconsciously running away from it. I wasn't aware that had emotional wounds from childhood and I just felt like my ex wife accepted me for who I was with all of my emotional baggage, she just looked past all of that and the idealization was really soothing old emotional wounds.

What I found incredibly hard when we broke up was that I felt completely shattered. I felt like a pain of glass broken into a million pieces. I had gone through some difficult stuff in the past and always managed to piece myself together but that break-up, I knew that I would make it but I needed help this time. I felt like I had emotional wounds that were stuffed deep down had erupted.

Luckily I found this board and sorted through the breakdown of our relationship and marriage and went to a P and T and for a while I was seeing both. I didn't work on core stuff with either of them. I felt spent from working through grieving the loss of the relationship and going to court for custody and access with a high conflict person. I do intend on working on core stuff in therapy, I feel like life is finally at a place post break-up where it's stabilized, the depression has lifted, I'm not thinking about my ex or the loss of the r/s and working towards my future. I'm a single dad raising 3 kids in this crazy thing called life.

I had concluded that her idealization of me indicated how important the marriage was to her and that she would do anything for it.  But what I am now thinking is that she probably just felt more comfortable being in control in what started as an imbalanced marriage to begin with.

I see that a lot of your focus on the idealization in your post is on your ex. What effect did her idealization have for you? Do you feel like she validated you?

[joeramabeme]

I had concluded that her idealization of me indicated how important the marriage was to her and that she would do anything for it.  But what I am now thinking is that she probably just felt more comfortable being in control in what started as an imbalanced marriage to begin with.

I see that a lot of your focus on the idealization in your post is on your ex. What effect did her idealization have for you? Do you feel like she validated you?

I have really struggled with this question.  Truthfully, I am using the term "idealized" but it feels off-center to me.  When we first met I don't think she "idealized" me - even now I don't know if I see it. 

Looking back, there were moments of time that she would do something very nice for me that felt so out of context.  A kind act, a nice comment, a nice gift or she would tell someone a story about me that showed me she really honored me.  Some of these moments were preceded by arguments or conversations that indicated she was really upset with me and practically hated me based on the way she was talking to me.  I was so perplexed by the contradiction.  So retrospectively, I have labelled her feelings about me as "idealizing" when truthfully I am not even sure that this is the correct label.

One other thought I have had about whether or not she idealized me is; that I really was emotionally unavailable to have a committed relationship with and she stayed with me all the same - and this was her idealization of me.

Did I feel validated by her - absolutely.  She is pretty, fun, outgoing, intelligent, curious, spiritual and wise in many ways.  I really believed that she and I shared much of these traits and this felt validating b/c I had never met someone I felt so attuned with that possessed all these wonderful qualities.

Is this part of the "idealization" impact on me?  I thought this is what love is?  But honestly - even after all the time I have been here and everything I have learned - I know I still have some substantial blocks to seeing the whole picture of BPD.

Lastly, as I write all this, it brings up all the self doubt about my perceptions of my marriage and of her.  Perhaps I really was the bad guy and she gave it 1,000% and I couldn't respond in kind... .

[Mutt]

Joe,

BPD is complex. I think that it takes time to examine the separate pieces of the marriage and find how BPD fits with those pieces. What I found is that I experienced nearly 8 years one way feeling like I was going crazy and then I discover "borderline personality disorder" and my experience starts to make sense. I got more confused at times with the complexity of the disorder but I found that the further that I shared my experiences and read about the disorder I could reflect on back on moments in our marriage that made absolutely no sense at the time and things slowly started coming together with all of the pieces of the puzzle.

Its like not understanding computers, the more you discover and learn can leave you a little more confused until things being to "click"

Your STBX is wired differently and she feels more negative feelings than positive feelings, she feels chronic shame, evil and she splits herself and projects her negative feelings about herself.

A relationship is two equal parts. I don't think that it matters who is right or wrong but we have good and bad qualities and we're not all one way or the other way. You're not the all bad person that the disorder filters for her in her mind. Realistically you are in the grey area?

I completely understand how confusing that is when your ex is projecting, baiting, blaming and you're split black and then you're split white. I recall we were having three different fights and I had no idea what instigated it, all I wanted was fir her to let it go and sometimes she would idealize me out of the blue and I felt resentful because she didn't apologize, explain or validate how I felt.  The idealization and validating my emotional wounds was a feeling that I felt at the onset of the r/s and I recall distinctly when my ex wife stopped by attention to me and it was the idealized woman that I waited to show up for 7 years.

The thought would sometimes cross my mind "Where did that wonderful woman that I met go? Maybe my wife is going through a bad period and she will come back but it never seemed like she was getting better or snapping out of it, the idealized woman that I met at the beginning wasn't her real self, who she really was is the person with the part time self that was failing in our marriage.

[joeramabeme]

Joe,

BPD is complex. I think that it takes time to examine the separate pieces of the marriage and find how BPD fits with those pieces. What I found is that I experienced nearly 8 years one way feeling like I was going crazy and then I discover "borderline personality disorder" and my experience starts to make sense. I got more confused at times with the complexity of the disorder but I found that the further that I shared my experiences and read about the disorder I could reflect on back on moments in our marriage that made absolutely no sense at the time and things slowly started coming together with all of the pieces of the puzzle.

Its like not understanding computers, the more you discover and learn can leave you a little more confused until things being to "click"

Your STBX is wired differently and she feels more negative feelings than positive feelings, she feels chronic shame, evil and she splits herself and projects her negative feelings about herself.

A relationship is two equal parts. I don't think that it matters who is right or wrong but we have good and bad qualities and we're not all one way or the other way. You're not the all bad person that the disorder filters for her in her mind. Realistically you are in the grey area?

I completely understand how confusing that is when your ex is projecting, baiting, blaming and you're split black and then you're split white. I recall we were having three different fights and I had no idea what instigated it, all I wanted was fir her to let it go and sometimes she would idealize me out of the blue and I felt resentful because she didn't apologize, explain or validate how I felt.  The idealization and validating my emotional wounds was a feeling that I felt at the onset of the r/s and I recall distinctly when my ex wife stopped by attention to me and it was the idealized woman that I waited to show up for 7 years.

The thought would sometimes cross my mind "Where did that wonderful woman that I met go? Maybe my wife is going through a bad period and she will come back but it never seemed like she was getting better or snapping out of it, the idealized woman that I met at the beginning wasn't her real self, who she really was is the person with the part time self that was failing in our marriage.

Mutt

This is a most excellent thread for me and your reply has allowed me to articulate a point of deep confusion.  Specifically, if when I met my wife she was being her "part time self", how does that fit into my own understanding of my behaviors and actions and the idealization aspect?  

To clarify a little bit more - I have internalized my learning about BPD to mean that some part of me was defective for having selected her and either not seeing her red flags or ignoring them.  But what I read you saying here (and I agree) is that she was projecting a self that she thought would work in the marriage.  That projection could not be sustained and so therefore I was left with the fractured person that she more genuinely is.  

So the question sounds like; what is my role in being attracted to a person who is presenting as being whole and complete?  Doesn't this just mean that she successfully portrayed herself as desired?  How does this relate to understanding my own NON character traits?  

I know that my non-traits are there, but just not sure how to fit this piece of information into the big picture.  And just to finish spinning this web of words, how does that relate to our topic that she 'idealized' me?  I see that being idealized may explain why I got pulled into the r/s so completely but does it indicate that something is in need of being addressed for me?  Or is it that once the "idealization" phase ended I kept trying to go back to it.  And that my "Idealization" of her is continually looking for her 'modified' self rather than accepting the self that I had ended up seeing?

As a side note to my question; I think this same topic/question has been presented by many other posters on this board and the format of those questions looks like - they are evil and intentionally manipulated me.  I am not advocating that point of view but am shaping the scope and nature of what I am asking as being broadly universal in its nature to non's unwinding of their past.

Thanks again

[Mutt]

So the question sounds like; what is my role in being attracted to a person who is presenting as being whole and complete?  :)oesn't this just mean that she successfully portrayed herself as desired?  How does this relate to understanding my own NON character traits?

We all present our best side at the onset of a r/s. The idealization in the honeymoon phase at the onset of every relationship where we see all of the good things and we over look the bad things, mirroring is not uncommon. Is that a trait that's synonymous with BPD / CD?

I'm sharing the following from my personal experience and it's not necessarily your experience. It may help.

I didn't take the time to get to know my ex wife at the onset of the relationship. She moves things quickly. If I look back at my marriage and if I look at her life now, everything moves quickly. I could of taken the time to get to know her and I didn't have personal boundaries, if I had boundaries I would have felt her push / pull behavior against my boundaries and that would have set off alarms bells that there's wrong. I don't think that I was defective, I think that I didn't know better at the time, I grew up in a dysfunctional family and didn't have guidance from caregivers. A lesson that my marriage taught me is taking care of myself, making changes so that I can have healthier relationships with friends, family and potential partners.

How my ex wife's idealization fit for me and the reason I kept going back is because of a parent that is narcissistic that didn't give me attention or displayed that he cared for me and loved me as a child. My ex wife and her idealization phase felt like validation, love, attention that I felt that I lacked. I felt like my ex wife truly understood me, cared for me where I felt like nobody else in my life did. She is mentally ill and a criterion for BPD is black and white thinking and seeing loved ones as either all good or all bad. It's painful when you care about one so deeply and you don't understand why they see you as someone that doesn't have their best interest at heart.

[Flutterby32]

Yes, I think this may at least be partially the case with my marriage, which I am going to end in January if not sooner.

When we met, I was almost 30 and had had almost ZERO past success in dating and romantic relationships. I had DEEP wounds going back to adolescence regarding romance, and wounds going back pretty much to the beginning of my conscious life regarding other matters.

We had only known each other a few months (maybe 5 tops) when she pretty much DEMANDED that I make a serious commitment to cohabitate and marry her. When I hesitated, she got VERY emotionally distraught. It did not feel right, so I said no and we agreed (I thought) to still be friends. A week or two later I called her, thinking we are friends, I can call my friend... .and once again got a VERY emotionally distraught and upset reply.

At the time, I had lost a job and was back in my hometown where my unhappy childhood and teen years happened. No job, back in the place of my pain... .not being in a relationship felt like "three strikes, you are out, you are still the same old LOSER you always were!"

So I accepted her "offer I couldn't refuse" and moved in with her and we married about a year later. Maybe one and a half years TOPS from first date to marriage.

She was and still can be very loving to me... .as long as I am more or less doing what she wants me to do. But I so often feel devalued by her, and like nothing I do is ever quite enough, or good enough. She has a way of twisting things so that she is always the poor mistreated victim, and I and others are the "Big Bad Meanies" who are out to get her.

At the time we met, I was desperate for any kind of loving attention and she was able to provide enough of it that it seemed worth it. But the issues quickly surfaced, but because I am a people pleaser I stayed and am just now getting untangled.

[joeramabeme]

Yes, I think this may at least be partially the case with my marriage, which I am going to end in January if not sooner.

When we met, I was almost 30 and had had almost ZERO past success in dating and romantic relationships. I had DEEP wounds going back to adolescence regarding romance, and wounds going back pretty much to the beginning of my conscious life regarding other matters.

We had only known each other a few months (maybe 5 tops) when she pretty much DEMANDED that I make a serious commitment to cohabitate and marry her. When I hesitated, she got VERY emotionally distraught. It did not feel right, so I said no and we agreed (I thought) to still be friends. A week or two later I called her, thinking we are friends, I can call my friend... .and once again got a VERY emotionally distraught and upset reply.

At the time, I had lost a job and was back in my hometown where my unhappy childhood and teen years happened. No job, back in the place of my pain... .not being in a relationship felt like "three strikes, you are out, you are still the same old LOSER you always were!"

So I accepted her "offer I couldn't refuse" and moved in with her and we married about a year later. Maybe one and a half years TOPS from first date to marriage.

She was and still can be very loving to me... .as long as I am more or less doing what she wants me to do. But I so often feel devalued by her, and like nothing I do is ever quite enough, or good enough. She has a way of twisting things so that she is always the poor mistreated victim, and I and others are the "Big Bad Meanies" who are out to get her.

At the time we met, I was desperate for any kind of loving attention and she was able to provide enough of it that it seemed worth it. But the issues quickly surfaced, but because I am a people pleaser I stayed and am just now getting untangled.

Flutterby - interesting that you have so much insight so soon in to your recovery. 

As I read your story as I was wondering; given what you know now and given how you felt then, would you have made a different decision?  Regardless of whether you say yes or no; what are your thoughts about your reasons why?  Going forward with your newfound knowledge, do you feel differently about yourself?

[Flutterby32]

knowing what I know now and being where I am now, I would most definitely say NO to her, and I am about to do just that!

but back then, I was so desperate to prove to myself that I was not a loser, and so not wanting to go back to the dating game that I had mostly failed miserably at, that I was not able to make what would have been a better decision, to say NO.

And actually I DID say no initially, but then gave in and said yes. I was just so desperate! Both of my younger siblings (one brother, one sister) were already married and had more luck with relationships than I had. I made a damn fool of myself at both of their weddings, chasing after bridesmaids who were not interested in me. I was just way too prone to not make the best decision with the person I ended up marrying.

And of course, I was not able to be my true gender identity back then! I was having to pretend to be a hetero man when I am really a lesbian woman!