He drove my son off - what do I do about my cat?

[Ceruleanblue]

Here's some answers to a few questions:

I don't think BPDh is jealous of the cat, although I could be wrong. I LOVE having the cat around, and am very attached to him, but I'm not one to pet the cat often, or have him sit on my lap, or carry him around. I've never really gotten a jealous vibe off BPDh in regards to the cat.

As to my son, I did actually think it was best for him to not be around BPDh. I love my son, but he can be typically(maybe more than some teens) disrespectful towards me at times, and BPDh just did not deal with it well at all. I thought the fact that BPDh had raised four kids(and I can't imagine they weren't way mouthier than my son, because they are now mean, PD acting, adults), that he'd sort of roll with it. Well, after we'd married, I found out he didn't "roll with" anything. It just escalated, and one time he even put my son against the wall by the scruff of his shirt. This was yet another time my daughter told me of BPDh's abuse. I wasn't there to witness it, but I sure had a say about it after the fact! BPDh never got physical with my son again after that, until the day he threw both my kids out, and I thought he was going after my son, and I stood between them. I got hurt, but I'd die before letting anyone hurt either of my kids. BPDh was acting crazier than I've ever seen anyone act. It was pure, unadulterated rage. I never wanted my son around that again.

My relationship with my son is now much healthier. Yes, I DO still wish I lived with him, but I have to say it was a constant stressor having to worry that BPDh would go off on him, or that my son would mouth off, and I'd be judged for not handling it correctly. My son had anger issues almost from the time he was born, and he was always somewhat of a challenge. He actually got better as he got older, but the teen mouthiness was a huge issue. I do resent BPDh for expecting me to "choose", but I look at my choice as doing the best I could in a bad situation. It almost killed me to move away from my son, and I grieved, and I do resent BPDh for it. I work on that, because resentment is not healthy.

My son is WAY more important than my cat, but I think I've just seen how badly I felt after I moved away from my son, and I don't want to keep letting BPDh give me orders and ultimatums. I may decide to send the cat away, if it's in the CAT'S best interest(if I determine it is unsafe for him).

I did check the cat out, and other than being shook up and scared acting, he's fine. I questioned BPDh more about it today, telling him that my daughter is convinced he hurt the cat(because I know he might not care what I think or feel, but he sure does care what my daughter does). He said he doesn't think he stepped on the cat. Uhm, I've stepped on him before accidentally, and there is no mistaking if I did or didn't!

And I've read Patricia Evans' book. Actually I read if right before I met BPDh, and I had him read it because he had me convinced his ex fit the profile of an abuser too. She does, but I now know BPDh does too. From what I remember, the advice was about not engaging, and staying safe, maybe even leaving.

Oh, and if I ever saw him hurt my cat, the cat would immediately be taken to my parent's house. And I'd do my best to try to get BPDh some help. I think if he's capable of hurting a pet, that I'm looking at way more than BPD. I'd probably really have to consider leaving too, because if someone can hurt a pet they've lived with for years, it doesn't seem far off to get mad enough to hurt a human? I guess I'll have to think about that... .

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

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[Notwendy]

I think it is a good thing that your son isn't subjected to your H's abuse.

It comes back to choice. You chose this relationship, your son didn't. Whatever positive you see in the relationship, he doesn't get that positive. The man is not his father, and they have no reason to have any relationship whatsoever with each other.

This may not be what you wanted or expected, but it is what it is, and I think it is good that your son isn't living with this.


In a marriage, it is important for the bond between the parents to be strong, however, when the parents are also each invested in the children, this bond doesn't result in triangulation.


Abusive/people with PD's tend to project their issues onto something/someone else. It isn't them. It's usually their SO, their boss, their child, their job, their something else that isn't them. There is also a sense of magical thinking that if the offending object or person changed, or is gone, or the job was different, that they would be fine. However, the problem is them, so it continues in different situations.

Whether this relationship is safe for you or not is up to you to decide. There are benefits ( and costs) of this relationship that are unique to you and your H, but they do not apply to your son or the cat. You are also larger and stronger than the cat.  Yes, your H could hurt you physically, but he could more easily hurt the cat. Emotional abuse on the other hand, does not depend on size. You will make your own choices with the circumstances you have.

[formflier]

  There is a specific issue here that I think has been talked out:  Status of the cat.  There is a long term relationship dynamic for CB to consider if she is happy with or wants to change.  She chooses to give away her power and her husband chooses to take it.  Whenever there is a perception that CB is taking her power back, this causes stress in the r/s because of the dynamic change.  CB, what is the status of going to MC?  Conversations such as what happened to the cat and other "high stakes" conversations are more likely to be successful if moderated by a professional.                

FF

[Sunfl0wer]

I am likely butting in, however, I did want to make a point... .And will try to be helpful in doing so.

I agree 100% with Notwendy.

However, I see two issues.

1. The possible need to protect the cat.

2. The opinion of a daughter who feels that H may have been abusive.

I haven't heard much about addressing daughter's concerns properly.

I wonder how CB's daughter's perception of what happen fits into this all and how CB' behavior is witnessed and processed by daughter.

I don't have any answer towards this.  Just bringing up for consideration.

Edit: srry CB to speak of you in third person.  I don't like that... .my mind isn't sharp this am... .and my words are sloppy that way.  I do see you're put in an awful and trying position with this situation... .srry!

I find regardless of 'evidence' of cat abuse, a D IS in fact fearful, these feelings are legitimate.  And it may appear D turned to CB for action.

[Notwendy]

Good point Sunflower,

The discussion of the cat is an entry point to some questions that I think are worth discussing. Posters are bringing their own points of view into the discussion.

I raised the topic of "choice" because I think it is important to distinguish the people/pets who have choices and those who do not.

How children ( even older ones ) perceive the choices their parents make is important. How children perceive the adults and the situation is something to consider too.

Was the daughter's concern validated or minimized? Were her boundaries and values reinforced? This is an important topic. The daughter is seeing her mother and stepfather's relationship and behavior. If she sees abuse- to cats or humans, and this is minimized or invalidated- if her "voice" is diminished- could this set her up to tolerate, minimize abuse in her own relationships?

[Sunfl0wer]

I think in a sense, it is a powerful move for D to have presented the opinion of:

My gut tells me that H abused the cat, now what mom?

It seems to push you, CB, into a corner to address something her gut is experiencing.

Any move you make, will be a loud and powerful one.

Even an absence of appearing to make any move at all... .will likely be loudly heard as a powerful move.

I feel D is challenging where you draw the line... .

Do we respond to our gut?

Do we need to wait for 'proof?'

Do we say no to emotional abuse, or wait for a strike?

Etc.

[formflier]

  My gut tells me that H abused the cat, now what mom?    

               Interesting way to look at it.  D19 is an adult and can make own choices.  However, I'm 46 and I still pay attention to what my parents do.  I'm also interested in "why" they do things.    My own .02cents worth on parenting is that whatever CB decides to do here that there are two very separate points/explanations given to D19.  1.  My decision is (describe action) 2.  This is why (describe this)  Be clear that disagreement is OK, that you are not looking for her to agree, but that the prime concern is that she understand the reality of CBs decision making process.    I find it really helpful to get to know people and how and why they make decisions.  That way when faced with a decision to make I can think through this is what my Dad would most likely do, this is what Notwendy would most likely do, Grey Kitty, etc etc  You have touchpoints to guide your own decision making.  Last thought that needs some help from the group.  I believe it would be really helpful if D19 and CB get on same page and approach hubby as united front, in a non-accusatory way.  1.  Make it clear you are not accusing but are expressing a fear/concern. 2.  You heard the cat "screaming" (or however you describe it) and it had something to do with hubby. 3.  We are looking for solutions to reduce tension that is obviously present for cat, d19, and CB.  Good idea to ask and not "tell" or suggest that hubby feels a certain way.  Thoughts?                

FF

[Sunfl0wer]

I believe it would be really helpful if D19 and CB get on same page and approach hubby as united front, in a non-accusatory way.

This 'united front' in a 'non accusatory way' is an oxymoron in the mind of a PD person.  A 'united front' is likely to cause him to react as tho he was ganged up on.  He will feel justified to lash out.  Imo.

If someone IS being a bully.  I have always found it better to decide without their awareness what to do to protect myself or another.  Confronting them only provides an opportunity to try to control and change my mind.  It makes it seem like dealing with potential abuse is a collaborative effort which 'should' include the potential abuser... .it is not.

I think it is better addressed with guidance re boundaries.

I also think the cats reaction is valid... .as well as the daughters reaction... .as well as CB reaction and feelings of fear.

Fear can be addressed, boundaries can be set... .without 'proof.'

The proof is... .people feel threatened in some way.

Boundaries and actions can be set on that, no?

[Notwendy]

i bring up choices and examples because of my own experience.

Some of the issues I have wrestled with as a child of a mother with BPD:

Why did Dad excuse behaviors on her part that were inexcusable if I were to do them? Why would I get punished for doing/saying something that upset her, yet she was allowed to do/say basically whatever she wanted to with me, or other family members- even if what she wanted to do/say was hurtful?

Why- if I spoke the truth- that mother was being abusive to someone- Dad, me, siblings- was my impression silenced/ignored/punished?


FWIW- we had to give up a family pet for her. We were told we had to give it up so that mother wouldn't leave. The choice was, the pet or mom. We were little, so we, in tears, terrified that mom would leave us, gave up the pet.

A question that I don't know the answer to but, given the choice, would dad have given us up for mom? The fact that this is something I wonder about is a clue to how secure we felt as kids in that family.

I was taught, either directly or indirectly, that to be loved, or cared for, I had better be very very good all the time and not upset anyone.

[KateCat]

Kudos to you for bringing this difficult situation to these boards to discuss, CB. Others are sure to be seeing themselves in your questions.

In this general family dynamic, it's often the teenage son who intervenes at some point to protect his mother, his sister, or an animal from an abusive adult male, isn't it?  (Often with disastrous consequences, so I agree it's a good thing your son is not there.)

Have things changed in the household since your son left? Has your daughter begun to step into the protector role? Her role until this moment has seemed to be a very different one, from what you've described.

I can't help but see danger lurking for everyone in the home now. And definitely believe he hurt the cat, as a proxy for hurting you.

ADDED: CB, I also wouldn't challenge your husband directly at this time. Things seem too volatile.

[Sunfl0wer]

I agree on the idea of choices.

One choice can be... .

The cat feels intimidated.  Let's allow the cat a place to live where the cat feels more comfortable.  This seems to send a good message... .and resolves the issue.

(Yet FF may allude to a bigger issue... .I think baby steps and simplifying the issue to the cat is a good movement.)

_{However, this is where I am stumped with the possibilities and boundaries and why I peek in here on the staying board to learn from all here who are pro's at that part.  So I'm interested how others work this out.}

[KateCat]

Let's allow the cat a place to live where the cat feels more comfortable.  This seems to send a good message... .and resolves the issue.

I think this is a winning strategy and will buy you more time to work on other issues.

[formflier]

Let's allow the cat a place to live where the cat feels more comfortable.  This seems to send a good message, and resolves the issue.  

               I think this is a winning strategy and will buy you more time to work on other issues.

               If there is/has been verifiable improvement as a result of CB choosing to have the son live somewhere else, then I may grudgingly go along with this.    My impression of CB's story is that there was no improvement.  My memory of her story would lead me to argue it made the situation worse.  CB please clarify.    But, let's be clear here.  The issue is not the cat or where the cat lives  It would be one thing if this was a brand new situation, newlyweds.  That is not the case.  CB and her husband have chosen a relationship dynamic that seems fairly stable (very different from saying it is good) for many years.                

FF

[KateCat]

I'd like to clarify my post:

I do not think the situation in the home has improved since the son's absence. I only think that it is better for the son not to be in the home, as he would be the natural candidate for physically challenging CB's husband.

[formflier]

I believe it would be really helpful if D19 and CB get on same page and approach hubby as united front, in a non-accusatory way.

               This 'united front' in a 'non accusatory way' is an oxymoron in the mind of a PD person.  A 'united front' is likely to cause him to react as tho he was ganged up on.  He will feel justified to lash out.  Imo.  

               This may be true.  And CB and her daughter should have a reality check to see if they have the skills to approach the hubby in a (from our point of view) solution focused/non-accusatory way.  Just because there is a chance a pwBPD may twist something, doesn't mean we shouldn't try.  Especially when the situation is unclear.  Give them a chance to communicate.  He has denied it, so go with that.  The issue is not the event, it is the feelings of D19 and CB.  Serious consideration needs to be given to how a pwBPD would view things if he didn't touch the cat, the cat vocalizes, the other people in the house are now "after" him for something he actually didn't do.  Talk about a nuclear situation, So the boundaries and discussion should be appropriate for the situation where we don't know.  I'm all for boundaries and if he is not receptive to a discussion, then that is the only tool left.  And, to be clear.  I think he probably did "do something" to the cat.  But figuring that out via discussion/interrogation (in his mind) is going to cause way more damage (IMO) than a solution focused discussion on what the people living in the house can do to lower "feelings of tension" or some other appropriate label.  All parties should have the opportunity to suggest steps they can take to reduce tension.                  

FF

[formflier]

I'd like to clarify my post:  I do not think the situation in the home has improved since the son's absence. I only think that it is better for the son not to be in the home, as he would be the natural candidate for physically challenging CB's husband.  

               Completely agree.    If the son is not able to refrain from going physical, he needs to be somewhere else.  And, most teenagers I know don't possess those skills.  Since CB has described him as "mouthy" my guess is that he would be an above average candidate to push hubbies buttons/try to make the world conform to his teenage mind.                

FF

[formflier]

  And I think there are a couple different "levels" of issue here that perhaps need to be understood better.  Not that I'm saying any of these are ok.  I think a hubby that is reactive to a teenager pushing his buttons is one thing.  I think a hubby that finds a cat in his way and roughly moves the cat is another thing.   I suspect cat has figured this out and will be fine.  I think a hubby that gets mad, seeks out a cat to take out his anger is a completely different thing, much, much worse.  Again, none of these are ok.                

FF

[Sunfl0wer]

And I think there are a couple different "levels" of issue here that perhaps need to be understood better.

Not that I'm saying any of these are ok.

I think a hubby that is reactive to a teenager pushing his buttons is one thing.

I think a hubby that finds a cat in his way and roughly moves the cat is another thing.   I suspect cat has figured this out and will be fine.

I think a hubby that gets mad, seeks out a cat to take out his anger is a completely different thing, much, much worse.

Again... .none of these are ok.

FF

I'm not sure evaluating things from the perspective of what hubby did or his intentions/motivations... .helps simplify things. It feels complicating to them. That is unknown speculation... .not sure how it would be helpful to determine.  The result tho... .IS a known.

I like how Notwendy focuses on what IS known... .

Cat appears intimidated and fearful

D appears cat was intimidated and fearful

CB feels what she feels.

I feel addressing it from the angle of hubby's intent... .could be a never ending unresolvable loop.


A value can be that it is every individuals responsibility to find a place of comfort for themself vs intimidation.  Except in the event that person is a minor, or pet, then they may require the assistance of another.

A boundary can maybe be... .when I feel fearful... .I can ________, which helps me feel less fearful.

D, can simply avoid situations.

The cat IS trying to avoid situations, yet still appears intimidated.  May need help.

Caution:  I have experienced persons who are enraged at me when I am fearful and take a 'victim's stance' appearing like I need to protect myself in any way.  It has been received as an insult to my perpetrator... .thus 'forcing' him to the persecutor side of the triangle.

[Cat Familiar]

To me, the elephant in the room is the daughter's perception that the H has harmed the cat.

If nothing changes, then what is communicated to the daughter is that the H can do whatever he pleases without consequences, which, from the writing of CB, I assume is the reality.

This puts the female members of the household in a victim stance.

[Ceruleanblue]

I actually did ask him about the cat incident last night, sharing with him that my daughter is still asking me about it. Neither of us think he seriously hurt the cat, but we can't rule out that he may want to. I think she'd more trying to reason out what's wrong with BPDh. She's taking a ton of psych classes, and we all get "diagnosed" at times. She has not stepped into any type of protective role. In fact, she's quite happy being able to lead BPDh around by the nose. For some odd reason, maybe because they are both hotheads, and difficult, they have this mutual respect thing going on. In fact, my daughter is much more likely to be rude or confrontational with BPDh than he ever is to her. He gets all worried and upset if she's mad at him. It's the total opposite of how he is with me. Of course, he was seems to have been the same way with his kids, so I think my daughter is filling a void for him.

My daughter knows I'll do what I think is best. She knows I'd never keep the cat here if I thought BPDh would really hurt him. I just feel I have to have a line in the sand somewhere.

Like Formflier, I often wonder what my parents would do, or I seek out their advice. I'm 47, but I have two really solid, dependable, smart parents. I was raised in a pretty functional family. All this is just baffling to me. I feel like I've spent my life surrounded by difficult people, starting with my sister who was 10 years older than me. I try to please, they get mad, I try to do damage control. It has to stop somewhere, and I'm working really hard on having boundaries. The issues are everyone always seems to be stronger willed than me, or maybe I'm just always more willing to compromise(I think this makes me stronger than them, actually). I'm finding that there are some things though that I'm unwilling to compromise on, and yet they keep pushing.

It's just sad that pwPD keep trying to have us prove things, or put us in a position where we have to make tough choices. BPDh has backed down on the cat issue for now. He said he changed his mind, and I don't have to "get rid of my cat".

And no, this isn't really just about the cat. It's about the fact that he keeps putting me in this same position over and over. ":)o this or else we are done". It's seriously sick. I see it is, I just haven't figured out how to deal with it in a totally healthy way. I mean, how do you negotiate with a terrorist? It's like he's an emotional terrorist. Maybe that's harsh, but that's how I've come to see him, even though I do have compassion for him.

[Notwendy]

Caution:  I have experienced persons who are enraged at me when I am fearful and take a 'victim's stance' appearing like I need to protect myself in any way.  It has been received as an insult to my perpetrator... .thus 'forcing' him to the persecutor side of the triangle.




Yes.

In my mother's situation, there can only be one victim. Her. So if we act as if she has hurt us, it enrages her. It also causes a dissociation - she can not process that she may be the one hurting us.

The day after one of my mother's night time rages she would act as if nothing happened. I don't think she remembers- I think she was in such a dissociated state that it didn't happen to her. Also, her shame reaction is so strong that she can erase such events, like a dry erase board.

We were not allowed to say anything about it-not to her, not my father, not anyone. They would get angry at us and tell us it didn't happen or say we were not allowed to mention it.


At the time of the angry rages, I believe the person perceives themselves as my victim and they are fighting back at me.  It is very interesting to hear my mother speak of some situations where I thought Dad was the victim ,but she is completely convinced that she is the victim.

[Notwendy]

CB, I think it has been said that you don't negotiate with a terrorist.

If negotiation is not possible, it may come down to you making a choice. That isn't an easy choice, but so many relationship choices are not easy.

We all have something that is non-negotiable. Perhaps for some, they have not encountered that non-negotiable or they don't know what their non-negotiable is. For others, that non-negotiable may be infidelity, physical abuse, criminal behavior...

For some relationships, the couple doesn't encounter a non-negotiable. Each person knows what that is and respects it, or it is a mutual value. If it happens that someone crosses a non-negotiable boundary, then the other person is left with a tough choice- accept the behavior or not, but not accepting it can risk the relationship.

For instance, infidelity is a deal breaker in my marriage. It is a strong value for both of us. For my H, I know it would be unforgivable. It would end the marriage. However, that isn't the reason I don't cheat on him. It's an internal value for me, and so I don't do it in order to respect my values. Someone else may choose to respect a boundary out of not wishing to hurt the relationship.

Other people may not feel this is a deal breaker. Some people may be OK with an open marriage. The point is, your deal breakers are yours. When, and if your relationship encounters a deal breaker, then you would be faced with a choice.

It could be the cat, or the child, or maybe something else. However, I think you will know what that is if it happens.

Also, the choose this ( cat, child, holiday, whatever) or me, and if you don't give this up I will leave tactic is one that is used because it works! It only works for the person doing this if he or she knows that the choice to give up the relationship is not an option. Hence mother could use it on us kids because she knew we had no choice in the matter.

She doesn't use that one on me now    Not that she is in fear, my relationship with her is voluntary. I choose to be in a relationship with her. However, I think she is also invested in the relationship and would not put it on the line, knowing that I do have a choice.

CB, your H has some investment in the relationship too. Would he give you this choice if he believed you might choose the other choice- and not him?

[Ceruleanblue]

Well, I don't feel like a victim, because I choose to stay, and I do feel he has a mental disorder of some nature. If I really thought he'd hurt the cat, the cat would already be at my Mom's house.

I don't think he does this because it always works, but I do think it could be a case of me intermittently reinforcing it. I've sometimes given in to him, so he keeps trying it. See, I've tended to think of it as "marriage takes compromise", yet I think he sees it(or just feels the need) to have control. I think he views every compromise I've made as me "giving in". Plus, I don't always compromise. I said no to his desire for a threesome(this totally goes against my morals). No matter how much he complained, I won the TP war of which direction the TP goes on the roll(I'm home more, and I change the roll). But I am a huge believer in compromise, and when he's asked ME to work on an issue, I'll knock myself out trying. Maybe he sees this as weakness, instead of as just being a good partner?

I don't know. I thought I had all this BPD/NPD stuff mostly figured out. Not that I could change it, but that I could circumnavigate, and work on ME, and not "make him worse", radically accept that only he can change him, and it may always be this way. It just seems that the more accepting I am, even while holding a few boundaries, that he keeps trying to up the ante.

He thrives on chaos, which is why he's having issues at work, issues with his kids(although the reason they are mad is truly not  his fault, they have their own control issues), and issues with ME.

We do plan on getting back in MC, but I also dread that. Last bout went horribly, and we got nowhere because he won't work ANY issues. He just wants to tattle, take zero responsibility, and have me work on things he views as MY issues(and I'm always working on imagined issues he thinks I have). He takes zero responsibility for verbal or physical abuse, and our last MC totally minimized that issue. All I want out of MC is to be able to communicate with him, to some small degree. I can communicate, he can't or won't. He does admit that is true.

What worries me is that he wants to see the therapist first alone, I'm sure to try to triangulate. I'm just so tired of all his machinations.

[Notwendy]

CB, do you think that if you compromise enough it will make your marriage better?

Do you think that two people should reciprocally compromise for each other- that if one does that it will result in the other one making compromises too?

Is what you want from your H - to see him compromise for you?

[Ceruleanblue]

No, I long ago accepted the fact that compromise is never going to be reciprocal in this marriage. I don't feel that gives me the right to act as he does though, and never compromise. In an odd sense, I think it means I compromise more, because he can't or won't. I need to work on that.

I think in a healthy marriage there is negotiation, or compromise, there is good will, and there is mutual respect. I think due to his BPD/NPD or whatever his issue is, he lacks the general ability to display these normal relational behaviors, and he certainly lacks the motivation to change.

I never go into a compromise thinking "oh, next time maybe he'll compromise for me". I just write it off, and try to have the best attitude I can. If I can't compromise with a good attitude, I try not to compromise, because it just leads to resentment. That's why I am still so hurt over the decision I was force to make about my 17 year old son. It was presented as a "the marriage or him" type thing.

Heck, if I even point out some nice things I've done, BPDh explodes. Just the other day, I pointed out to him that I invited his son to dinner(trying to remind him of my effort and kindness). He exploded, and told me he can invite his own son to dinner(I actually just suggested it to BPDh, and he was the one who called and invited his son), and in fact he doesn't "need my permission", and I don't even need to be there.  

See what I am dealing with? I've never seen skewed thinking like this. I was pointing out to him that I was trying to be kind, and maintain the one decent relationship we have with one of his four kids, his son, and he explodes. He will often totally twist kind things I do or say, and I'm no longer shocked at being blindsided this way.

I can't crawl in his head, and make him see my good intentions, or make him stop turning good into evil in his head. I can only walk away, and let him think what he's going to think.

I view everything I do in this marriage as MY choice now. If I compromise, if I stand my ground, it's my choice. He can make ultimatums, throw a fit, threaten, but ultimately, the choice is mine. At some point, I may have to leave, but I am committed to the marriage, for now. I'm committed to working on me, and not letting emotionally unhealthy, controlling people ruin my day... .or life.

[Turkish]

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