Sitting in Silence

[RaisenCane]

I'm not sure how to handle this. My uBPDw and I are not talking. We live in the same house, sleep in separate bedrooms and don't speak to each other. Any attempt at a conversation is answered with a yes, no or I got it, don't worry about it. Almost every question relates to something about the kids. Our last phone conversation on Thursday ended in a screaming match and a final decision not to speak to each other.

We went to a Christmas costume party on Saturday night. She was Little Orphan Annie and I was Daddy Warbucks. She asked me earlier in the week if I had my cuff links and I thought they were in my drawer and said yes. (I should have looked then but I'm a guy:) ) I looked for them Friday night and couldn't find them. Saturday I was looking some more and found one button so I was looking through her jewelry box to see if they might have been put in there. She walked in asked me what I was doing and told her I was looking for my cuff links. She said I should have asked her before going through her stuff and instead of taking the opportunity to SET, I told her to stop projecting her bad behavior on me (she checks my e-mails, text messages, etc after she had an affair but when if I check her stuff I'm the bad guy) and tell her I need to get out for awhile and went to run some errands. In any event, I love my wife dearly but we are in 2 different worlds right now and I'm not sure how to make it better.

Any conversation not related to the kids activities ends up in a screaming match. I always feel the need to JADE and SET usually crosses my mind the minute the argument is over. Prior to 2015, we never raised our voices to each other but now it seems our outside voices are the only ones we have making sitting in silence a very nice thing.

How do you get SET to be at the forefront of your mind instead of it being the afterthought?

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Cat Familiar]

I've been here a year and I still have a hard time with SET. When they start coming unglued, usually it's a little too late for them to hear it anyway. What I've been successful with is when my H starts raising his voice--is leaving the room. I say, I'll continue this conversation in 15 minutes. He's typically calmed down by that point and my blood pressure hasn't had an opportunity to rise, so we can talk like adults then.

It's not easy, but it does get easier the longer you keep at it.   

You've got some major stuff to deal with. My first husband had affairs and it was devastating to me. And he didn't want to let me out of his sight. Projection much?

[Daniell85]

You mutually made a decision not to speak to each other? Like an agreement?

Affair is very hard to heal when the person responsible has resentment and refuses to be transparent and validating.

I have kind of ended up in the same sort of stalemate. It's hard to act empathetically and proactively to someone who has hurt you and is being a pill to you.

Is it possible that when there is conflict, if you have a backlog of hurt and resentment that is not being otherwise addressed, you first response is that anger and hurt, ( because you are stuffing it down) rather than SET being the first tool you are reaching for?

You understand, a little hole in the balloon and out the air comes.

How was the affair issue addressed for you?

[RaisenCane]

After our last fight we said, we get along much better when we don't speak so that's where we are.

Quick synopsis of the affair. I learned of her emotional affair last Feb. We started MC and she promised no more contact. We both started separate counseling (she used our MC and I found my own). I found a second phone in June that she was using to talk with him. At this point, we were with our second MC because the first one decided it would be best if my W saw her and we got a new MC. She promised again that there would be no more communication. In Sept I found a 3rd phone and concrete evidence of a physical relationship. I filed for divorce and took our kids away for the weekend so she could think things through. She begged me to put a continuance on the divorce proceedings so we could work on things. 2 days after I agreed to the continuance, she became angry because during the 8 months, I reached out to family and friends to intervene as she wasn't getting it. She now says that I have ruined her reputation, I've destroyed her... .I tried to forgive her for the affair but she says she neither wants nor needs my forgiveness. I know I did not handle things well and became angry a few times but she is much angrier at me than I am at her which is very frustrating as we are at a stalemate. 

[Cat Familiar]

2 days after I agreed to the continuance, she became angry because during the 8 months, I reached out to family and friends to intervene as she wasn't getting it. She now says that I have ruined her reputation, I've destroyed her... .I tried to forgive her for the affair but she says she neither wants nor needs my forgiveness. I know I did not handle things well and became angry a few times but she is much angrier at me than I am at her which is very frustrating as we are at a stalemate. 

There is no comparison between having an affair and reaching out to family and friends. She destroyed her reputation, all by herself. It's too much to ask of a spouse to both cheat on them and then expect them to keep the dirty deed secret from everyone. NFW! She has no right to be angrier at you.

Rant over. I know you're dealing with a pwBPD. My ex-husband was very similar. He felt it was his right to screw whomever he pleased, marriage be damned.

I'm very sorry you're dealing with this. I just wanted to say IT'S NOT YOUR FAULT.

[RaisenCane]

Cat Familiar,

I know it's not my fault but when you hear over and over again that it is, you can start to believe it. She insists her relationship had no affect on the kids (although our kids were friends with his) yet tried to tell me that the fact that I lived with my exGF prior to knowing my wife or having kids is going to negatively affect them because I knew what I was doing was wrong but did it anyway. Maddening. Thankfully I had a session with my T today to pull me out of the dumps and also remind me it's not all my fault.

[formflier]

 I love my wife dearly but we are in 2 different worlds right now and I'm not sure how to make it better.    

     RaisenCane, Hey!  Don't think I've been in any of your threads yet.  Glad to meet you but sorry you are here (you know what I mean, )  You make it better by understanding her world, building a bridge to that world and slowly but surely she will be forced to walk across that bridge towards normal.  This assumes you can be consistent in the use of tools.  Does that feel fair to you?  It didn't and doesn't to me.  But such is life.    I will tell you that the first couple times you see the tools work you will think you are a magician.  It doesn't always work that way, but when tools are fresh and new to both of you, they can have a dramatic affect.  Do you believe the affair is really over?  How are you going to be going forward if she doesn't "own" the affair?  No rush to answer those questions, but they do need to be answered  For now keep those answers between you and us.  We can help you devise strategies to get where you hope to be.  Hang in there.  As Cat Familiar said, It's not your fault.    I'll add, It is your task to fix this (if you want it fixed).  Waiting on a pwBPD to show leadership and take your r/s to a better place is a doomed plan.  Looking forward to more posts!      

FF  

[RaisenCane]

Form Flier,

Thank you for the response. I do want to build the bridge but having a difficult time laying the first stone. The anger between us is palpable. Physically, I think the affair is over but emotionally she is still hanging on and I can't break through. Since you haven't been in my threads before, let me give you a little more background. (For those of you that know my story, you can skip most of this). Her affair was with a man from church who was in the clergy but left the clergy to become a marriage/spirituality counselor. He met me uBPD MIL at church once and immediately "diagnosed" her as BPD. He began to talk with my wife about her mother and family and told her how amazing she was that she wasn't affected by it. He really built up her trust and he became her knight in shining armor and I become the bad guy because I hadn't asked much about her family dynamics. Prior to him entering our lives, we hadn't heard of BPD (assumed her mother and siblings were bipolar). We rarely see her family so we didn't discuss her past very much other than half her family didn't attend the wedding and we wrote them off for 5 years. We moved across the country (and back to a separate region) but still a long drive away from them. When we entered MC, the counselor asked if I was concerned about the family history and I said it had always been in the back of my mind especially because our oldest was tough and I was concerned it might manifest in him. She heard "you think I'm crazy because my family is crazy." She now insists we had a bad marriage for 13 of nearly 16 years we have been married but no one else (including me is aware), we have nothing in common and there has never been an emotional connection between us. She has also told me that she only married me to get away from her family.

We have 5 amazing kids that she homeschools and does an amazing job. I am the sole provider of the family so I work about 50 hrs/wk but don't travel much and am home at least 4 out of 5 nights of the week although earlier in the marriage I would travel for a week, once a quarter. I try to get the kids out at least one day a weekend and frequently take them on weekends by myself so she has some alone time and also encourage her to get away with friends.

She now has me convinced we have had a bad marriage and I haven't been a good husband and father. I never really considered her to be like her family until this all started and I feel she is showing 3 or 4 traits of BPD.

I never met her paramour's ex wife but what I have heard about her sounds like she could be BPD. What I know of him fits the NPD profile rather well. I think he has totally played her weaknesses and has manipulated her very well. The text messages I saw between show them fighting in one text and very in "love" the next. Since the affair has come to light, he has supposedly moved 2 hours away to be nearer to his kids but he still has a house in the area. When he was in the area, he was working as a MC at a Christian counseling center. I had spoken to him 4 times about his relationship with my wife and he lied each time saying they weren't communicating any longer while she was lying about it as well so I went to his boss with the evidence I had at the time and he was terminated. They both hold this against me. In the text messages he would take responsibility for his actions and his firing and then in the next message blame me and sometimes blame her for not knowing what I was going to do.

In a nutshell, I'm not sure she is BPD but is showing traits (although I've been walking on eggshells most of the marriage because I felt I never measured up to her or her family's expectations) she hasn't shown signs prior to this year which is the biggest flag that she might not be unless he has awakened some demons). He has convinced her she's not BPD, our 2 MCs said she wasn't but after they found out she was lying for so long to them, they both felt she needed a complete psychological evaluation. She spent an hour with a psychiatrist as her evaluation. I met with her and the P after that and he basically told me if she had a PD I would have known it a long time ago.

So here I am trying to figure out what to do. I meet with a T twice a month and a P once every 2-3 months. I'm on medication for depression and anxiety so that make me the "crazy" one. Unfortunately I spend most of my time with the T working through the affair that we haven't focused much on my anxiety. And now I'm on this site looking for tips to make things better and save the marriage but am getting concerned it's too far gone.

My biggest issue with her is communication. At this point, I don't know what to talk to her about other than the kids. When I do speak to her responses are short and curt and if they develop into anything it turns into a fight about who is more wrong. At the advice of our 3rd MC, I have tried to do little things, give her small gifts, little touches here and there but am told she knows what I'm doing and doesn't want any of it so we are back to the deafening silence.

She doesn't believe me but I do still love her but it's more difficult to do so each day.

Thanks so much for the advice so far.

[formflier]

 OK, thanks for writing that update.  I have a good idea what is going on.   Very similar to my story.  I have 8 kids.  We home schooled for a while.  I was in Navy and traveled a bunch.  Perhaps that kept the r/s exciting and helped keep distance.  We had great r/s for 15 years or so.  Natural disaster forced us from our home.  Was very stressful.  I didn't know any better and did "everything" wrong (according to rules) for several years.  R/s went to really bad place.  We are almost dug out of it.  Of course the story is more complicated, but that gives you the gist of it.    

Form Flier,   And now I'm on this site looking for tips to make things better and save the marriage but am getting concerned it's too far gone.  

     It's never too far gone.  It sounds like you have some things in place to work on you, keep that up.  It's not your fault, but it is your role to lead the way out of this.  a pwBPD doesn't have the skills to lead back to a good r/s.    Right now you don't have the skills either.  In T and on this site you can learn those skills.  A couple of vibes I am getting (and I may be wrong, please correct if I am)  1.  Your wound is still raw about the affair.  That is making the rest of the stuff difficult.  Tell me about what you do for self care.    Very important that you take care of yourself first (yes, first).  Critical to have one person in the house that can make wise decisions.  2.  Mindset:  You want to save your marriage.  Admirable goal, and one that is very possible.  Right now I'm getting the vibe that thinking about that is overwhelming for you.  Can we break things down into smaller steps or goals?  Such as, getting to a place where you will not engage in conflict in your marriage.  A place where you won't take the bait.  Note:  Your wife can do whatever she wants, I'm only talking to you here.    Yes, it is possible to let her do all the conflict she wants, and you to abstain.     Have you consulted with a lawyer?  If not your should do so privately (do not let wife know).  You need knowledge before you can make decisions.  Was your wife a "client" of her paramour?  Tell me more about this.    Lots more on my mind, but I'll quit for now.  My hope for you is that we can channel your hurt and your anger to a good place where it gives you energy and stamina.  Hang in there man!       

FF

[RaisenCane]

1.  Your wound is still raw about the affair.  That is making the rest of the stuff difficult.  Tell me about what you do for self care.

Very important that you take care of yourself first (yes... .first).  Critical to have one person in the house that can make wise decisions.

2.  Mindset:  You want to save your marriage.  Admirable goal, and one that is very possible.  Right now I'm getting the vibe that thinking about that is overwhelming for you.  Can we break things down into smaller steps or goals?  Such as, getting to a place where you will not engage in conflict in your marriage.  A place where you won't take the bait.  Note:  Your wife can do whatever she wants, I'm only talking to you here.    Yes, it is possible to let her do all the conflict she wants, and you to abstain.


Have you consulted with a lawyer?  If not your should do so privately (do not let wife know).  You need knowledge before you can make decisions.

Was your wife a "client" of her paramour?  Tell me more about this.

Yes it is still raw. They were actually discussing marriage and more kids but given our religion they would have had to stop practicing (which is important to them) to do that so the entire thing is so insane and so difficult to get my head around. (Our clergyman is aware of the situation and asked him to no longer attend our church. He has never done that in 35 years.) She tells me that her paramour told her to "live it out with me" but she has recently said that if he would call her tell her she didn't have to live it out with me, she would want a divorce. So yes, it's still raw.

The only thing I do for self care is run as often as I can but usually only get to do it on the weekends. Sleep is still difficult so running in the morning is tough. I try to take walks with my kids in the evenings as much as possible and attend their sporting events and practices but their isn't a lot of me time other than driving and sessions with my T.

My T wants me to stop engaging and to just be myself and be nice so in order to do so, I don't talk to her and try to focus on the kids. I get very frustrated trying to talk to her so by the time we do engage, I'm already at the end of my rope. The problem is that if I don't talk to her "I have no communication skills" and when I do talk to her, "I'm acting like nothing is wrong." Either way I'm wrong. If I bring up the affair, "I can't let go of the past" but if she brings up talking to the family and friends, she's "only reminding me of the damage I've done." Again, either way, I'm wrong (not that I want to bring it up but that's where the conversation goes because I feel the need to JADE). With that said, there are times I see a glimmer of hope but they are few and far between. We are sleeping in separate bedrooms as well.

I actually filed for divorce in late September, but she begged me not to do go through with it and promised she would work on the marriage. I put a continuance on the proceedings and 2 days later she started being nasty to me because I had talked to people and has been angry ever since. A couple family members and friends have stopped talking to her because she lied to them so many times but again that is my fault according to her. Prior to getting married, she told me there were 2 things she would not tolerate in the marriage, lying and adultery, and I agreed yet here we are.

She was not his client but when I would ask her about their relationship she would say he is just counseling her and helping her get through a tough time dealing with her family. Since she wasn't his client, maybe I shouldn't have gone to his boss but she was very thankful that I did and told me it took a lot of courage to do so because she needed to know the kind of person he truly is.

One last thing to mention. Since the affair, I have told her I wanted to put the kids back in school and she should get a job to help pay for their tuition and help support the family. Her response to that is that I'm trying to hurt her but in the end I am only hurting the kids. I love that she home schools (she says that I don't and have never supported her efforts) and she has done and is doing a great job but until I'm comfortable that the affair is over and she's not neglecting the children to communicate with him, I feel it is something we need to consider. With that said, I'm also torn because it's a big change for the kids and they already sense something is amiss so making a change like this could be devastating for them (or it could help). She is very manipulative when it comes to the kids and knows she can push my buttons by telling me my decisions will negatively affect them.

PS, if this is TMI, please let me know. It feels good to get it out though.

RC

[formflier]

  Not too much info at all.  Keep it coming.  Mindset:  (you will hear this a lot from me).  I sense that one of your measures of victory is how she acts or what she says.  This needs to change.  Victory is doing and saying emotionally healthy things and letting her deal with the fallout from that.  You don't take the bait.  She will still try to do the same dynamic (dance) but you are doing a new "healthy" dance.    Engaging with her:  Still do this, but remember, less is more.  I sense that we need to work on how you engage and when to disengage.      Reality:  Don't worry about her reality (also don't "buy" it).  Live your reality and don't try to convince her that your reality is "real".   Hint:  All she will hear is "she is wrong" if you try to convince her that you care or other nice things.  What does letting her own her reality look like.  Big picture.  She says "blah blah blah you hate me our marriage was never good"   Let her have her reality and let her know that you feel differently (not harsh but be clear).  Don't explain your feelings or get sucked into a long winded thing.    Just simply say "Honey, I hear you and understand how you feel.  I feel differently.  I will try to be supportive of you as you care for yourself."     Goals:  She is heard.  She keeps her reality.  You say that you feel differently (up to her to deal with that reality), and they you express support (but not action) as she takes action to sort our her bad feelings.  I've got some legal thoughts.  I'll share them later and more thoughts as well.  What lessons have you been reading?  Why is sleep difficult?      

FF  

[RaisenCane]

FF,

Thanks for the great advice. Hopefully I can adhere to it and my frustration and need to JADE doesn't get in the way. You're right about the victories. A win for me is having my wife back and being in a loving relationship but if that is to happen, I know I need to love me in this relationship first. At this point, I love being the father of my children and will do anything for them but I don't love being this husband to my wife. I forgot about me along time ago in this relationship and I realize I need to be stronger and firmer in my wants and needs.

What lessons have you been reading?  Why is sleep difficult?

I've been reading the lessons mainly about reducing conflict and understanding BPD better and really trying to determine if I'm dealing with a pwBPD or if this all fallout from the affair and why the affair happened in the first place. I'm also reading about SET and trying to do it.

As for sleep, I've never been good at it and if I awake after a couple of hours of sleep my mind starts racing about the situation and I have a hard time going back to sleep. She is headed on a trip with her sister the day after Christmas for 4 days but I have this nagging feeling her sister is helping her to see him. BTW, sister is diagnosed bi-polar and has the same complaints about her husband that my W has about me. My head tells me I need to let this all play out between them and she'll realize what she has done, but my heart won't let it. Also, if she is a pwBPD, she's not going to realize it so I need to get have understand that as well.

RC

[formflier]

  Have you ever done a sleep study?  Whatever time and $$ you spend on getting your sleep right is money well spent.  I've been there and done that and now get really good sleep.  Hang in there man!  I think you are on the right track.      

FF

[RaisenCane]

FF

I did a sleep study a ~ 8 years ago and they didn't find anything.

Looking forward to your legal thoughts.

RC