Meltdown about work trip. Not sure what more to do?

[Chilibean13]

I just informed my husband that I have a work trip at the end of March for 3 days in Chicago. He is having a meltdown. His point is that he wasn't asked about it and that I should have told my boss that I had to talk to him first, that if it wasn't required then I wasn't going, etc. etc.

I was so careful about making sure I validated him. I asked what would help him feel more comfortable with me going. I am remaining calm. He just kept escalating. Now he has sent me over 50 texts telling me how I don't care about him, how I don't consider him, how he doesn't get a say in my life and how he always comes in 2nd compared to everyone else, what a terrible person I am. When he began to ramp up I told him I felt like the conversation was getting too heated and that I was going to take a 30 min break. It's been 20 min and he is still texting me nonstop even though I have not responded to him at all.

How do I stop this? Is this one of those situations that he just needs to fizzle it out on his own? He is very angry that he doesn't have a say in it. My validation was spot on with this one. I didn't JADE or FOG. I'm so disappointed as things have been wonderful for the last 2 weeks.

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[an0ught]

How do I stop this? Is this one of those situations that he just needs to fizzle it out on his own? He is very angry that he doesn't have a say in it. My validation was spot on with this one. I didn't JADE or FOG. I'm so disappointed as things have been wonderful for the last 2 weeks.

I think this is fizzling out.

for not JADEing. It would put you in a weaker position for the future and would not helped at all.

It sounds to me like your unilateral decision (not much a decision but forced on you but anyways) violated a boundary of your H. Imho not so much a reasonable boundary but maybe one can argue it is reasonable. I suspect it is not so much the trip but the surprise and clear lack of control that triggers him. Not that you had perfect control over the situation being asked by the boss but he does not see that at all.

He is experiencing loss of control and that tends to trigger an extinction burst. The good news is usually life is brighter on the other side of it.

Right now you can only wait for it to run its course, don't engage too much and apply the usual soothing validation lotion. With some distance it may be good to talk about expectations to have a better framework for similar situations in the future.

Hang in there  

[iluminati]

The short answer is yes, let it fizzle out.

The longer view is that once he's calmed down, explain to him that your job requires certain responsibilities that include travel.  Make it clear that you understand how much he will miss you, and assure him that you'll do something special when you return.  However, these trips are a part of working for a living, and that his cooperation is appreciated.

[Notwendy]

Let it fizzle out. I don't think it is so much about boundaries but about his fears that you are going to meet someone and have an affair. It is about his anxiety that you are out of his sight for a while, somewhere else, where he can not be with you and so, his imagination is going wild.

I have faced similar responses " you should have told me", but when I JADE in this situation, the boundary keeps moving. If I say " I did tell you last week" the response would likely be something like " Well you didn't tell me two weeks ago" or "you didn't write it down" and if I kept JADING could end up something like " You didn't tell me exactly last Tuesday at 3:35 pm while standing on your head and reciting the alphabet backwards".

The point being- when you told him, he got anxious and that has to be your fault, but rather than address your fears, he blames you for doing something that is not your routine that he gets anxious about.

I used to accommodate this. Tell him I had a business meeting or trip planned. Then all kinds of reasons would arise for why I can't go " I can't watch the kids" " you didn't tell me in time" . Whatever, he just didn't want me to go. So then, if I did, I made all kinds of arrangements to help him feel secure ( can you say "co-dependent"?). I would stay with a girlfriend- and he would have her name to contact if he wanted to. But it didn't help because, I can't control someone else's feelings.

The bottom line : This is your H's anxiety. It is out of your control. It doesn't matter what you are doing on your part. If you are at a meeting and he is thinking you are running off with someone, then that is his thoughts, his feelings and the only thing you can do is let him be to manage them how he can. This may mean blaming you, but you can't change that.

This is your job, your business meeting. All you can do is the best you can. You told him about it when you could. You have no malicious intent, nor do you have any intent to do anything but work. This is the best you can do. He has to deal with his feelings on his part.

While I agree with iluminati's suggestion to explain the business trips when he is calmer, in my experience, I think my H ( and your H ) already knows this. What happens if I have to go is that, in the moment, he is anxious. He knows the facts, but isn't acting on facts, but his feelings which feel like facts. Therefore if he thinks I am going to run off with someone during this business trip, the other reasons aren't considered.

[Notwendy]

I also think you should keep your job! I stopped working for a while ( family obligations) and while the business trip issues resolved, the same issues came up if I went anywhere else. Go to the meeting, and enjoy your job. The job is just the place for projection at the moment, but they have nothing to do with your job or this meeting.

One think I learned is that, if something isn't true, then you have nothing to defend. JADEing, discussions, just seem to add fuel to the fire by calling attention to it. I can't change what someone else thinks, and I don't try. I can keep my part in this clean. If I have nothing to defend, then I can let things fizzle out.

[Chilibean13]

Thanks wendy.

He has been going on now for almost 24 hours (10a will be the 24 hour mark). Currently he says that he can't give in to me going because that means I win and I will do this in the future. His current argument is that I didn't ask my boss if this trip was mandatory and because I didn't ask her that means I don't love him. In order for me to show him that he is first in my life he wants me to tell my boss that I'm not going. Several times though he has said, "you are leaving me". When I try to address that he moves the argument.

When I asked him if he would question his boss this way he says I can't throw his job in his face.

I know that he will be perfectly fine because with other jobs when I had to be away from a week. He didn't miss me while I was gone. It was as if I didn't exist except to say good morning and good night. Out of sight. Out of mind. He just won't let this go. Is this him trying to push the boundary? Trying to wear me down to say I won't go?

[flourdust]

Thanks wendy.

He has been going on now for almost 24 hours (10a will be the 24 hour mark). Currently he says that he can't give in to me going because that means I win and I will do this in the future. His current argument is that I didn't ask my boss if this trip was mandatory and because I didn't ask her that means I don't love him. In order for me to show him that he is first in my life he wants me to tell my boss that I'm not going. Several times though he has said, "you are leaving me". When I try to address that he moves the argument.

When I asked him if he would question his boss this way he says I can't throw his job in his face.

I know that he will be perfectly fine because with other jobs when I had to be away from a week. He didn't miss me while I was gone. It was as if I didn't exist except to say good morning and good night. Out of sight. Out of mind. He just won't let this go. Is this him trying to push the boundary? Trying to wear me down to say I won't go?

Man, I've had this exact same conversation. My wife hates my work trips. She demands that I thank her profusely for letting me go on a trip. When I'm on a trip, she then wants me to apologize continuously and acknowledge how unfair it is that I'm getting this luxury spa treatment (eight hour days in conference rooms plus nights at a Courtyard by Marriott or similar) while she's shouldering the burden of being at home.

The "you win" language is one of her favorites, too. I'm constantly being told that I'm winning, as if we're competing teams in the Super Bowl. Yet, if I'm winning, why does it feel like crap?

[Wrongturn1]

Hang in there, Chili!  I travel frequently for work:  4 out of the last 5 weeks (including this week), I have flown out of town for work travel, plus I'll be doing a day trip next week.  This has been an issue to varying degrees over the course of my marriage.  My wife says that when I'm gone, she doesn't trust that I'm staying true to my marriage vows, so typical BPD fear of abandonment probably, mixed with lack of object constancy and paranoia. 

My procedure for these trips is that I email her about my travel schedule as soon as I know about it, then book the flights, hotels, cars and go on the trip.  While away I keep her updated with frequent text messages and phone calls a couple of times per day. 

You have to be able to do your job the same way you would if you had a mentally healthy spouse.  Part of that is traveling when necessary for work.  I encourage you to stay strong and follow through with making the trip to Chicago.  Hang in there!

[Chilibean13]

The "you win" language is one of her favorites, too. I'm constantly being told that I'm winning, as if we're competing teams in the Super Bowl. Yet, if I'm winning, why does it feel like crap?

Exactly. I hear this ALOT. I just want to win. No, I just want him to settle down and have a normal, rational conversation.   It's total projection. He wants to win. I never even consider whether I win or lose our arguments. Winning to me is that we both find a resolution together. But according to him, "We are past negotiating."

[iluminati]

Here's the thing that we as nons have to remember about borderline personality disorder: the fear of abandonment is strong and robust with people who suffer from it.  They also perceive anything that isn't an absolute and strong positive for them is a threat.  That's why something as benign as a work trip is triggering.  Since there are no clue rewards in it for them, it must be a sign of a threat.  This finding has proven strong throughout research on BPD.

This ultimately ties to their own experience, where threats to their relationships and safety were common, and they were particularly sensitive to their effects.  I'll bring up my own relationship with my ex wife as an example of how particular triggers work.  (For the record, both myself and my ex-wife are Black, which is an important point in this story.)

My ex-wife was particularly triggered by White women.  Now, as it turned out, it was related to her father's drug use.  After some well applied DEARMAN,I found out that her dad would disappear for weeks at a time, only to be shacked up with a White woman who he'd sleep with in exchange for drugs.  As a result, any time there was a Black man/White woman couple around, she'd dysregulate.  TV was bad enough, but heaven forbid we're walking around and saw one.  Also, she threw my history of dating women of all backgrounds in my face.  I JADEd my head off, and even made a habit of steering my wife away from such couples.  However, it wasn't until I let her throw a tantrum and tell her story that I learned the truth.

The life lesson?  OP, let your husband cry.  Maybe he'll tell you the real reason he's upset.

[Notwendy]

iluminati, that is a great connection to a traumatic childhood experience. To a little girl, having Daddy disappear is terrifying, and although drug abuse is an issue on its own, it is hard for a child to comprehend. What is visible and would make sense to a child,  is that this white woman took her Daddy away. Depending on how old your ex wife is, and in the US, as a child, there may have been less examples of interracial couples in her life and in the media, so she didn't have the contrast of something like having a friend with happily married interracial parents to see that her father's relationship was not unique. Kids have magical thinking, so she may have believed that white women will take someone she loves away. Even if you have JADEd, explained, and there are plenty of examples of happy interracial couples today, the childhood trauma isn't rational, and when triggered, she feels just like that scared and sad little girl.

[Notwendy]

This win-lose idea is crazy making. It seems this was a frequent issue early on in my marriage. If I asked my H to do something, even something small, he would fight tooth and nails as he thought it was me ordering him around. He even began refusing "invitations to bed" because he was not going to "let me win". It got to where I just didn't bother asking him to do anything because the conflict wasn't worth it.

As to the imagination. My H has come up with all kinds of convoluted arguments for me not going places and for the longest time, I believed him and didn't. I didn't want to make my H unhappy. But in the end, it made no sense. He could get triggered by my wanting to go see a favorite singer, or an old male childhood friend- in a family setting with spouses and kids. I have pretty strong boundaries around socializing with males as it is, but even with only going to events in a group, with my children, with spouses, that didn't seem to make it safe enough. This is because, like illuminati's example, something in childhood could be triggered. Something that made sense in a child's world, with a limited point of view, and it got generalized to all situations.

Chillibean, go to the meeting , not going won't change this. 

[Chilibean13]

I have learned something very important this week.

The initial blow up seems way worse than it really is. IN the future I need to be ready to handle the big blow up. This may last a couple of days but after the initial blow up, he will see that he may need to soften his stance on things. I've never noticed how this works and I probably wouldn't if I hadn't been learning about BPD. This has greatly encouraged me to inform my H of events early so that he will have time to diffuse. In the past when I wanted to take out of town trips I would usually wait until just before to tell him about it so I never gave him the chance to chill out. THus, since he was angry I frequently canceled plans.

Here is where he is at in regards to this trip: I should still ask my boss if it's required and try to get out of it if I can BUT if I can't he is going to go on the trip. (I would be ok with this as I have gone on work trips with him before and took a "vacation" while he was in conference for days).

I agreed that he could go but then I started talking about logistics--he would have to look up flight times, find out the cost, hotel set up, etc. He quickly changed his mind and said it would be too much trouble for him to go.

So now... .he is ok with me going BUT I can't go sightseeing, out drinking, or meet/hook up with other guys.   I told him about what my plans were for the evening during the conference... which include a little sight seeing, dinner with the lady I'm traveling with, and then TV. He seemed ok with that.

But he "knows what people do at conferences... ." I asked him if that is what he does at confernces and he said, "No, but I know other people do." SMH.

[Notwendy]

It is about his imaging that if you are out of his sight, you will have the opportunity to flirt and hook up! As long as he knows he can check up on you, this takes care of his anxiety.

My H has gone through all kinds of maneuvers to keep me from going places. It doesn't have to make sense. I can be out with my kids and somehow he imagines this. In front of the kids? Oh and every guy I ever knew since I was a kid, is a potential " I hooked up with him". Once he asked me suspiciously about a guy I knew when we were kids. I looked at him straight in the eye and said " we were not old enough to even be in puberty yet- it was impossible" . But logic is out the window here.

One way he indirectly stopped me from going places was to refuse to help with the kids. He would also come home very late from work. I was with the kids all evening, so I just didn't ever make plans. But when they got older, and we started MC, I was urged to go to co-dependency meetings and I could. By then, I was so enmeshed, I didn't go anywhere in the evenings but I did because she told me to, and my H couldn't stop me because of that too. After meetings, he would start to ask who was there. If I was late coming home because I talked to someone, he would get suspicious.

I keep a lock on my phone but if someone messages me, the message pops up. I mostly talk to the moms of my kids' friends, but this is 2016 and dads are involved in school things too. The other day, a dad of a kid in my kid's grade messaged me- something school related. My H saw it " what did he want" and I could tell by the tone of his voice that he was thinking something was going on.

I have never cheated. It makes me uncomfortable to get questions about it. But I can't change it.

I also get the initial blow up/then calm down reaction. I also have to learn to not react to it.

[an0ught]

Hi Chilibean13,

The initial blow up seems way worse than it really is. IN the future I need to be ready to handle the big blow up. This may last a couple of days but after the initial blow up, he will see that he may need to soften his stance on things. I've never noticed how this works and I probably wouldn't if I hadn't been learning about BPD.

It is natural to react to what is loudly happening in front of us right now. The problem is pwBPD tend to overreact initially. For us it is important not to feed into the overreaction as it would just prolong or make matters worse. Timeout, JADE and let it run it's course. Validation in appropriate manner once reachable again.

This has greatly encouraged me to inform my H of events early so that he will have time to diffuse. In the past when I wanted to take out of town trips I would usually wait until just before to tell him about it so I never gave him the chance to chill out. THus, since he was angry I frequently canceled plans.

Overreaction is part and parcel of the condition and we can't do so much from our side to change that in the short term. Trying to avoid triggering is not healthy like your example of telling late. Telling late is disrespectful and invalidating. To fall for this coping strategy is unfortunately quite common.

This is a good example of how invalidating (inappropriate overreaction) immediate actions cause the relationship to adopt long term invalidating communication patterns by the environment of the pwBPD (hiding information) leading to loss of trust.

A big part of recovering the relationship is going back to healthier patterns on our side. While it was a slippery slope downwards it is an uphill struggle now with occasional rocks flying our way. The price of telling him early will be up-front while the benefits are not immediate but are longer term and will add up. Keep going!

Here is where he is at in regards to this trip: I should still ask my boss if it's required and try to get out of it if I can BUT if I can't he is going to go on the trip. (I would be ok with this as I have gone on work trips with him before and took a "vacation" while he was in conference for days).

He needs to talk and share his thinking. This is still your relationship with your boss and your situation when phased with a demand. His ideas are less important as his needs behind them. He needs listening. Don't agree on handing him control in places where it is now owed.

I agreed that he could go but then I started talking about logistics--he would have to look up flight times, find out the cost, hotel set up, etc. He quickly changed his mind and said it would be too much trouble for him to go.

Good move if you have the capacity to handle him there . Excellent move to leave the consequences with him! Looks like there was more an emotional need than a real need. At times it can be hard for us to know as words may be misleading. Actions speak louder and looks like it was not worth much of his action.

So now... .he is ok with me going BUT I can't go sightseeing, out drinking, or meet/hook up with other guys.   I told him about what my plans were for the evening during the conference... which include a little sight seeing, dinner with the lady I'm traveling with, and then TV. He seemed ok with that.

But he "knows what people do at conferences... ." I asked him if that is what he does at confernces and he said, "No, but I know other people do." SMH.