BPD and waifs

[caughtnreleased]

So I've read that being a waif is one way that BPD can manifest itself.  I am looking for a bit more information on this, since my uBPD mother is not at all a waif... .but rather the opposite - raging, manipulative, ADD, impatient and emotional on a constant basis.  As a result though,  the only people who will tolerate a close relationship with her are waifs, because anyone with a backbone will stand up to her and will take all the fire power that she can deliver (she has friends but changes personalities completely with them so they don't actually know the "real" her). My sister and father are both waif-ish... .I wasn't (at least to my knowledge) and I was made to pay for it.  I'm just trying to better understand this dynamic.  Would anyone on this board consider themselves to be (or have been) a waif?  It's something that I don't properly understand because I am the opposite.  I draw lines even if it means being the only one standing up in the line of fire. I have taken many many many hits.  And I am still recovering from it.  But what of waifs... .? By experience, my father and sister, while they will very rarely actually take a real stand, when they do... .it's watch out time. I have seen murderous rage in my sister to the point where I feared for my physical safety.  Is this the waif dynamic? They take it and take it and take it... .until they explode? I would love some insight on this.  Does the fact that my father and sister have waif-ish characteristics mean they have BPD traits (since its a way for this to manifest itself?) Did they get off easy because of me? Clearly, putting myself in the line of fire protected them to some degree... .but it made them waifs, and my mother did sometimes tire of shooting me down, so she often would land on other targets so my sis and father didn't get out unscathed. In fact, I remember my father taking a lot of the abuse. So while she did not have enough love for the three of us, she sure as hell had enough rage to go around.

Did any of you have a waif mother?  While my father is waif-ish, he tried to be my friend and ally, and certainly took an interest in me when I was child, and was supportive of me.  I was better able to have a relationship with him, although recently have come to understand that in a way he probably enjoyed the abuse he got, but didn't protect me from it either... .basically, the waifs let me take the heat, so they wouldn't have to.  I would love some insight from those with waif parents, or others... .for additional insight into this kind of personality trait, and how you deal with it.

[hashtag_loyal]

Well, my uBPD mom is a hermit, but she might've been waifish before I was born. She always had some kind of physical ailment bothering her, but she never raged; her favorite weapon is guilt.

I learned to live with her by limiting the amount of contact I have with her and just kind of "smile and nod" when I talk with her. It might not be the nicest thing I can do, but it did allow me to gain my sanity.

However, my dBPDxgf is a stereotypical waif, so I have learned a great deal about that sub-type through her.

Waifs typically don't "act out" and rage. Instead, they usually "act in" and just turn all the rage on themselves in a disturbing display of self-pity and self-hatred. They (more so than other pwBPD) tend to always make themselves the victims and actively seek a rescuer for even the most banal or easily fixable of issues. I read somewhere that they are the hardest BPD to treat because they are by the far the most self-defeating of all subtypes.

Some waifs will use seduction and affairs as a way of "acting out". Rather than rage at you when they perceive you as threatening them, they will just hook up with one of their orbiters and not even tell you about it. That's certainly what mine did (and where the "x" in dBPDxgf comes from... .  )

As for how to deal with them? I am not sure. Other than being ready to endure lots and lots of crying? Probably the best bet would be to enforce boundaries by refusing to do every last thing for them and expect them to solve their own problems once in a while.

[caughtnreleased]

Thanks you so much for your response. Waifs are a connundrum... .and right now they are so incredibly difficult because they leave me defenseless in front of the narcissistic BPDistic craziness of my mother and I take it all on the chin.  It's incredibly sad too because they jump at the tiny crumbs of love that are given to them... .and let me tell you they are so small... .but between crumbs of love, and bouts of rage and hate... .they fold at every occasion.  It's awful.  I am trying to better understand a person who is a waif so that I can be a bit more empathetic with them and not think they are pathetic.  I have trouble building a relationship with my sister as a result of her waifishness and while I know how to put down boundaries and standup to the crazy lazy who calls herself my mother, I don't really know how to handle a waif because of course she is surrounded by people who enable her.  I have been able to put up boundaries for her... .but when I do it... .she just moves to those who don't put the boundaries up instead... .so there's no point really, except of course to simply protect myself.  But... .it's really a difficult situation I find.

[sebastian.l]

mine was the waif type and she didn't really rage on me that seriously. She punished me in emotional ways e.g. when she anticipated me leaving her because I had to return to my place, she would go out, get drunk and kiss and hook up with another guys. She wouldn't tell me directly. Usually, I got text messages that night like 'It hurts, and love is ___ty'. the next day there were these subtle sentences that give you a cold chill like 'it was too late yesterday, and too much beer, and I have to take a shower now'. My further questioning just resulted in avoiding strategies.

Later, before getting myself into marriage with that girl, I found out by hacking her Facebook that she always consulted her best friend, a recent psychology graduate who supports her (yes, my last resort and I am not proud of it. I saw it as the only way how to protect myself and find out what I am really dealing with). She told her about her 'acting out' and of course both found a simple justification. 'Well, he is not the right guy for you, if you go for others'. Sure, we can accept not being the right ones. However, going out, cheating and not telling is simply passive aggressive, abusing and a fearing the consequences of abandonment. She would do it over and over again. When I found out, the first thing she did was raging on her shrink friend, because she assumed she told me - for she was the only person who knew.

[SummerStorm]

My BPD friend is a waif, for the most part.  She does rage sometimes and can get physically abusive, but she mostly acts in.  She's had four suicide attempts, cuts, drinks, and does drugs.  She also cheats.

But more than anything, the one thing that stands out is her ability to play the victim all the time.  There's always some drama in her life, some reason she needs to be "rescued" by someone.  Every boyfriend has been abusive, everything ails her, everyone is out to get her, she has no money, etc. 

It's exhausting, and I've learned to not feed into it. 

[anon72]

I have just realized that I also have a waif mother (after reading Understanding the Borderline Mother).

Her favourite weapon is also guilt - loves to blame everyone else for everything - and make them feel guilty no matter what they do.  She calls - you don't respond because you are not around - guilt.  She doesn't call, you don't call - why do you never call - guilt.  You send her messages - she ignores them - then sends you a message telling you we are worried about you - guilt.  And she is not afraid of using any of these issues to gain sympathy with her friends or otherwise (poor me - my kids never contact me etc.).  It is all very tiring.  And WOW - she loves to use facebook to show everyone how much she LOVES her kids (and tells them on their facebook page - when it is completely inappropriate).

My two youngest sisters have enabled her for practically everything - so that she can play the I can't do anything game.  Especially my youngest sister - who even buys her groceries now - it is starting to get a little tiring - to be honest.  Thankfully - I have backed off and am LC for almost 2months now (just realized) - only brief emails.  Although, I must be honest - I feel guilty for not being in touch - that is what I have reacted to (guilt) for almost 30+ years - so very difficult to completely divorce myself from that stuff overnight.  Anyways, I am learning, and now that I am starting to SEE out of the FOG (fear/obligation/guilt stuff), everything is starting to become much, much clearer.  Although, it is still quite upsetting to realize quite how sad/pathetic my mum really is (after all these years).  I do feel sorry for her more than anything and know that her upbringing resulted in what she has become - but she has not tried to do anything to change it at all

Anyways, hope that added something to the discussion.  I am also trying not to feed into it... .

[sebastian.l]

I have just realized that I also have a waif mother (after reading Understanding the Borderline Mother).

Her favourite weapon is also guilt - loves to blame everyone else for everything - and make them feel guilty no matter what they do.  She calls - you don't respond because you are not around - guilt.  She doesn't call, you don't call - why do you never call - guilt.

Oh, I know this game. My ex used this weapon very successfully but never showed any effort to act from her side. After breaking up because she cheated on me, I contacted her for my stuff - answer 'it's really hard for me to miss you, and only thing I get is a message asking for your shoes' - guilt, poor me. 'then, she sees a pic of me and a girl on Facebook. Message: 'it's hard to miss you, but luckily you have other people to distract you with - guilt, poor me. 'I realize you are better off without me' - poor me. 'You deserve better than the person who I am' - poor me, self-loathing.

I suggested, she can also call and act, answer: 'you told me not to contact you anymore, last time we talked - guilt, responsibility on me. Taking her up on her not-acting again, answer:'no matter what I would do, it would be never enough for you' - guilt, responsibility on me. She suggest not to text anymore, but talk in person to improve communication. I say good idea! No acting from her for 4 weeks. Her answer: 'because you said, you did what you could to improve our communication, I didn't respond anymore, because you leave me with this in a powerless position' - my fault, I leave her powerless, guilt, responsibility. 'I say, I still have feelings and willing to work out bad memories of what happened. Her: 'i cannot give you a miracle anymore, memories cannot be changed.

The only situation when she initiated contact when she wanted me to send her pictures of our last holidays. I said, it hurts me to look at them now. I send them when I can handle it. then she raged on me, saying I would play power games with her (guilt). I asked her to respect my feelings and leave it up to me when I have time to send them. She raged first, 'ok, you know, then we just forget about it and this is over, over, end and over'. 10min later she texted, 'Ok, I will be waiting'. 30min later she texted 'just saw this can be misunderstood, I am not waiting for you any longer Sebastian!"and disappeared with the guy she replaced me with... .boom, there I received my emotional punishment for not giving in to her ways...

... .and the thing is, I still feel guilty for not acting the "right way" and think I could have saved the relationship or could have made her come to me. But from reading your posts, it's clear, they never come back and initiate unless they see something you can give them, do for them, care for them or emotionally comfort them or heal the pain

[anon72]

At least you realize that Sebastian now  That is a positive thing!

The only thing that scares me is that I have have been conditioned to respond to the whole push-pull thing after so many years from my uBPD Mother.  

And think that I may have some push-pull fleas - after dealing with that for so many years - unfortunately.  However, I am sure if I were to date someone that was emotionally available - things would be different, of course I am concentrating on healing myself first - and making sure that I work on these needy reactions.

I just received an email along the following lines (guilt, guilt and more guilt city):

We still haven't heard anything from you, it is difficult being a mum when you have children and they don't contact you.  All you need is a few lines from them to make you feel loved and happy.  I love you son.  and so on and so forth.

Does my head in, I responded just basically saying that I am well, been busy, things are good etc.  Hope you are all well.  What's new etc.  Look forward to seeing you again.  Very brief and to the point.

Am just interested in any thoughts from anyone here, as I am LC and am trying to keep this whole medium chill thing going - and not buy into any of this guilt stuff.  Does this sound like I have successfully done that?

Thanks in advance.

[sebastian.l]

I just received an email along the following lines (guilt, guilt and more guilt city):

We still haven't heard anything from you, it is difficult being a mum when you have children and they don't contact you.  All you need is a few lines from them to make you feel loved and happy.  I love you son.  and so on and so forth.

Hi Anon, Thanx for the reply first! I hope I realize these things. Still, since my relationship turned into a long distance,I still blame myself for not succeeding in making it work to change countries for that woman. My heart tells me, if you would had been close to her, things would be fine - now she is fine with another guy, that lives there, happily ever after.

I think, in the mail from your mom, there is a positive thing that she took initiative and contacted you. Said I love you. However, guilt game is the line 'it is difficult being a mum when you have children and they don't contact you.' So I guess best to do is, take her up on the good part and learn ignore the guilt part. Don't react on this.

I received a almost identical mail in the first week after our break up:

'I'm sad. It's really hard for me to miss you and not knowing if you are Ok and then the only message I get is for your shoes. That's hard for me... .but they say that time heals all wounds... .'

Then I jumped on pushing the guilt game back in the same way, which was my mistake... .it shuts her down and the communication

'For me its really hard to miss you and integrate this situation in my life. Then to hear you care but I also dont hear anything from you... .i am not sure how to act around this. Its hard to let go because it seems to much a decision of the head... .'

Then her... .

'You asked me to not text you anymore the last time we talked. Of course it's difficult because I still love you and I think you still love me as well. Luckely you have some other fun things to keep your mind busy with other people

how would you react on this? I am curious to learn your view of a person outside the game?

[anon72]

I just received an email along the following lines (guilt, guilt and more guilt city):

We still haven't heard anything from you, it is difficult being a mum when you have children and they don't contact you.  All you need is a few lines from them to make you feel loved and happy.  I love you son.  and so on and so forth.

Hi Anon, Thanx for the reply first! I hope I realize these things. Still, since my relationship turned into a long distance,I still blame myself for not succeeding in making it work to change countries for that woman. My heart tells me, if you would had been close to her, things would be fine - now she is fine with another guy, that lives there, happily ever after.

I think, in the mail from your mom, there is a positive thing that she took initiative and contacted you. Said I love you. However, guilt game is the line 'it is difficult being a mum when you have children and they don't contact you.' So I guess best to do is, take her up on the good part and learn ignore the guilt part. Don't react on this.

I received a almost identical mail in the first week after our break up:

'I'm sad. It's really hard for me to miss you and not knowing if you are Ok and then the only message I get is for your shoes. That's hard for me... .but they say that time heals all wounds... .'

Then I jumped on pushing the guilt game back in the same way, which was my mistake... .it shuts her down and the communication

'For me its really hard to miss you and integrate this situation in my life. Then to hear you care but I also dont hear anything from you... .i am not sure how to act around this. Its hard to let go because it seems to much a decision of the head... .'

Then her... .

'You asked me to not text you anymore the last time we talked. Of course it's difficult because I still love you and I think you still love me as well. Luckely you have some other fun things to keep your mind busy with other people

how would you react on this? I am curious to learn your view of a person outside the game?

Hi Sebastian,

Thanks for your message.  First, yeh - she did tell me that she loved me - but unfortunately - it has always been about my mum - not about real love.  What can I do for her?  She has been projecting her insecurities on us since we were kids, never realized until recently.  Anyways, I know what you mean, but it just gets tiring - as I am trying to put distance between us at the moment.

Regarding your ex Sebastian - let me say this - as I have been in too many relationships with women that play games - and have push-pull tendencies.  Almost certain that a gf about 5 years ago that I dated for 2 years had BPD.  But anyways, after we broke up - the emails went from trying to put guilt on me and how I had been horrible and how she had been amazing etc. etc. etc.  And then if I didn't respond the way she liked - she would turn around and start telling me how wonderful I was - and how much she missed me etc.  No matter what I responded - there was always a problem.  Until I finally decided not to respond anymore.  With these type of women - I would let them be - even though it is not easy - it is for the best (in my opinion)  Mine - did all sorts of ridiculous things (which I allowed her to do - by staying in contact).  At least to me at 43 years old - I have decided that life is too short - and have no more energy for this sort of woman.  (Easier said than done of course).

In terms of response, depends what your end game is, do you want to get back with her?     If you want to get back with her, I cannot really give a good suggestion, as you never win when people are playing mind games - everyone loses.  At least in my experience.

If not (ie. don't want to be in contact), I would write a final email and say goodbye in the nicest possible way.  Not sure if that helps, but just being honest (imagining I was talking to a younger version of myself).

[anon72]

I just received an email along the following lines (guilt, guilt and more guilt city):

We still haven't heard anything from you, it is difficult being a mum when you have children and they don't contact you.  All you need is a few lines from them to make you feel loved and happy.  I love you son.  and so on and so forth.

Hi Anon, Thanx for the reply first! I hope I realize these things. Still, since my relationship turned into a long distance,I still blame myself for not succeeding in making it work to change countries for that woman. My heart tells me, if you would had been close to her, things would be fine - now she is fine with another guy, that lives there, happily ever after.

I think, in the mail from your mom, there is a positive thing that she took initiative and contacted you. Said I love you. However, guilt game is the line 'it is difficult being a mum when you have children and they don't contact you.' So I guess best to do is, take her up on the good part and learn ignore the guilt part. Don't react on this.

I received a almost identical mail in the first week after our break up:

'I'm sad. It's really hard for me to miss you and not knowing if you are Ok and then the only message I get is for your shoes. That's hard for me... .but they say that time heals all wounds... .'

Then I jumped on pushing the guilt game back in the same way, which was my mistake... .it shuts her down and the communication

'For me its really hard to miss you and integrate this situation in my life. Then to hear you care but I also dont hear anything from you... .i am not sure how to act around this. Its hard to let go because it seems to much a decision of the head... .'

Then her... .

'You asked me to not text you anymore the last time we talked. Of course it's difficult because I still love you and I think you still love me as well. Luckely you have some other fun things to keep your mind busy with other people

how would you react on this? I am curious to learn your view of a person outside the game?

Just thinking some more Sebastian, as a newbie and still figuring out all of this stuff (only one month low contact), I am not the best one to ask.  I think that one of the admins or someone who has much more experience would be the best one to answer.  However, I can send you a big hug and positive vibes. 

[caughtnreleased]

I have just realized that I also have a waif mother (after reading Understanding the Borderline Mother).

Her favourite weapon is also guilt - loves to blame everyone else for everything - and make them feel guilty no matter what they do.  She calls - you don't respond because you are not around - guilt.  She doesn't call, you don't call - why do you never call - guilt.  You send her messages - she ignores them - then sends you a message telling you we are worried about you - guilt.  And she is not afraid of using any of these issues to gain sympathy with her friends or otherwise (poor me - my kids never contact me etc.).  It is all very tiring.  And WOW - she loves to use facebook to show everyone how much she LOVES her kids (and tells them on their facebook page - when it is completely inappropriate).

My two youngest sisters have enabled her for practically everything - so that she can play the I can't do anything game.  Especially my youngest sister - who even buys her groceries now - it is starting to get a little tiring - to be honest.  Thankfully - I have backed off and am LC for almost 2months now (just realized) - only brief emails.  Although, I must be honest - I feel guilty for not being in touch - that is what I have reacted to (guilt) for almost 30+ years - so very difficult to completely divorce myself from that stuff overnight.  Anyways, I am learning, and now that I am starting to SEE out of the FOG (fear/obligation/guilt stuff), everything is starting to become much, much clearer.  Although, it is still quite upsetting to realize quite how sad/pathetic my mum really is (after all these years).  I do feel sorry for her more than anything and know that her upbringing resulted in what she has become - but she has not tried to do anything to change it at all

Anyways, hope that added something to the discussion.  I am also trying not to feed into it... .

Hi Anon, thanks for sharing. I have a mother who is a split between witch and queen.  My sister is turning into a full fledged waif... .And I see how it actually work well with a witch/queen, because it manipulates her into feeling like she lacks empathy... .that's the thing, my mother would hate to think that she has no empathy, so when someone is down, she will indeed "Help".  The fact is that I have become the opposite of a waif - completely and totally independent, because my mother's help will only come if I am submitted, which I was unable to do. However my extreme independence has hurt me in my relationships and it's something I need to work on. 

I see that my sister is now a waif and has two young children, who are starting to manifest symptoms of insecurities with their waif-ish mother (they are in complete "control" but of course if toddlers are in control it means its full-out chaos... .which it is, and the triangulation that happenned with my mother is now being repeated by my sister with her two kids.)  I would be interested in hearing more about how you have dealt with your waif-ish mother Anon and if it has seriously impacted you and the types of relationships you have with others.