NC, the double standard, and seeing the actors

[tryingsome]

Not sure if this is really the right board, but I have noticed this in myself (and numerous others on this board), and the realization has helped me tremendously. And this foresight I first noticed cropped up around the notion of NC. We as Non's tend to say NC is the path to healing; then have this lull or feeling on the need or desire to contact the pwBPD. We go full block Facebook mode, or ignore text or emails, or downright refuse to see the person in the flesh. And every once in a while we break down and reach out. Going on to say how this set us back and this and that and then come for reeling to this place for support. There is nothing wrong in this.

And that is the rub, the pwBPD displays the same levels of disassociation. When they cut us out, or block, or do this and that--when they try to reach out to us for a moment; we chastise them for it.

Relationships are hard and the breakups involving two people who are so enmeshed is even more incredibly difficult. I don't think it is more heartbreaking for partner or the other, and at times we lose our self in our preceived righteous of the situation. I found understanding this viewpoint has helped tremendously... .I played in a role in the relationship, but to continue those roles (me as the victim or the white knight) diminishes my ability to heal. A lot of self awareness is seeing the attributes I vilianize with the pwBPD and noticing that I too in some respects carry those qualities. And are not just a mirror of us or maybe in some aspects an extension of them?

P.S. -- Just saying what is saying in the mind currently. Cheers all.

[valet]

Hey tryinsome, I think that you're making an important point here. It is really hard to integrate these failed relationships into who we are. A lot of people here, myself included, have gone through a phase in detachment or in staying, in which we try to shove all of the responsibility onto our pwBPD for the issues in the relationship. I went no NC for a few months, and I found myself happier and less anxious, but like you say there is still that almost insatiable desire to reach back bout. I definitely acted erratically at times. I played an equal role in things both before and after... .

I think the real progress was made when I felt somewhat comfortable reaching out, or when I told myself that I didn't need to feel responsible for how my ex felt. That was hard, and it took a lot of learning about the ways I could cope with my emotions. It still makes me anxious sometimes. But out of all of that, I found that I didn't need her to survive. I think it's perfectly responsible to let ourselves want what we want—friendship, relationship, NC, etc. But it's also just as important to realize that things change, especially us. We can't ignore how we feel forever. Our feelings don't have room to breathe if we're constantly rationalizing the motives for our behavior and not staying true to who we are at a core level. That process almost always involves real pain, but facing that fear helps us grow.

[eeks]

I played in a role in the relationship, but to continue those roles (me as the victim or the white knight) diminishes my ability to heal. A lot of self awareness is seeing the attributes I vilianize with the pwBPD and noticing that I too in some respects carry those qualities. And are not just a mirror of us or maybe in some aspects an extension of them?

Hi tryingsome,

I think that any role that is too rigid (i.e. that's the only thing you know how to do) or polarized is likely to have a negative impact on relationships.  It's hard for partners to truly respond to and engage with one another in the moment if they are locked in roles.  Many of us discover that we acquired those roles in childhood in order to survive (psychologically, if not physically) and stay connected with our parents.  Or, the role comes from vowing not to be like the dysfunctional parent, and going to an opposite role that may be more functional but is still limited. 

It sounds like you are doing what's sometimes referred to as "owning your shadow".  Although we are all different each of us is "whole", we have a wide range or spectrum of traits, feelings, possible behaviours that inevitably get limited/stunted by the attachment and socialization process.  And yet, it seems to be in our nature to seek and want to reclaim that wholeness (yay!) so we find ourselves in situations/meet people who trigger those lost/denied traits.  There can be a lot of fear and shame involved (this is survival, after all) but we can practice accepting ourselves (having a different perspective on those traits, they may turn out not to be monstrous but beautiful-yet-misunderstood) or exploring this process with a trusted other.

The other important thing is that it isn't just the yucky stuff we disown, sometimes that we admire or look up to is something we actually possess, so there can be a component of "owning our light" as well.  I have read that people find that this whole process frees up a lot of energy that was previously locked in survival patterns.  I see the potential for this and eagerly anticipate it.

eeks

[gotbushels]

Hi tryingsome

Interesting.

A non doing NC for healthy purposes is not the same as pwBPD doing NC for unhealthy purposes. A pwBPD doing NC repeatedly as part of an non-normal "dance" to maintain her harmful behaviour is not the same as a non doing NC to lead a healthier life.

What specific "attributes" or "qualities" do you think you have that you dislike<edit> in the pwBPD? I'm guessing you meant to say these qualities come from NC, but I'm not sure how specific qualities can be inferred from the act itself of NC. I want to gently encourage you by recalling that there is a difference between a belief and physical action that follows from a belief. I will respect if you're not comfortable with sharing, so no worries.

Also, what is the double standard you refer to?

[gotbushels]

Or, the role comes from vowing not to be like the dysfunctional parent, and going to an opposite role that may be more functional but is still limited.  

Separately, this is so true. Thanks eeks.

[waverider]

A non grieves, and works though the emotions, often coming to a more balanced view. Hence believing they can at least be civil and friends.

A pwBPD does not grieve the same, they flick a switch and shelve the emotion, and so can feel all good and as though the fall out never happened. BUT they are not over it or have worked through it. It is still there locked away in their library. There is the risk at some time in the future when things are heated the old emotion gets pulled back out of the memories to back up and validate the anger they feel now. It will come back with the same energy it had when it was put into storage.

This is the story of their life, all the emotions have been filed away in a never ending compounding archive. This is why they have so much ammunition for their emotional outburst.

Ever been accused of sulking or holding a grudge whilst your pwBPD has gotten over that latest conflict? That is because they have quarantined it and moved on whilst you are still coming down slowly as you would when you grieve, you can't just switch it off and join them instantly in happy land.

Nons do NC for self preservation. pwBPD do NC either out of punitive reasons or simply because you have been switched off their radar. Hence a pwBPD cannot empathize with your reasons for NC, they simply interpret it as being punitive, or you simply dont care about them.

[tryingsome]

Nons do NC for self preservation. pwBPD do NC either out of punitive reasons or simply because you have been switched off their radar. Hence a pwBPD cannot empathize with your reasons for NC, they simply interpret it as being punitive, or you simply dont care about them.

Thanks for all the responses all, I think the statement above will help explain and answer some of the previous questions.

When you look at the statement above, isn't both perspectives really saying the say thing.

That one sees the actions of NC by the pwBPD as punitive. But the pwBPD see the non when they go NC as punitive, also. Both eyes see a punitive action.

From all this, I can kind of catch a drift how feelings can be facts. You must be doing to me how I would onto you (from both perspectives).

And in essence isn't this just playing a victim's role on our end, absolving their NC as punitive (sorry for the overuse of that word, it fits nicely)?

And this does not just revolve around NC.

I have seen many commentators here after a month start dating again, with the normal ra-ra-ra from the community.

But how dare the pwBPD find a 'replacement' so quickly.

Isn't this just us playing the role of victim once again? Not allowing the pwBPD to grieve and heal in the way they see fit.

I am over simplifying things greatly, and our two responses are from different 'needs'.

But does one 'need' trump over another? Is our reasoning any more important than their reasoning.

And I relate all this as it has helped me tremendously. Knowing they were doing the best with the tools they had, and I too, the non was implementing tools that I deemed best.

Maybe this is 'owning your shadow', I'm not sure.

[waverider]

I am over simplifying things greatly, and our two responses are from different 'needs'.

But does one 'need' trump over another? Is our reasoning any more important than their reasoning.

And I relate all this as it has helped me tremendously. Knowing they were doing the best with the tools they had, and I too, the non was implementing tools that I deemed best.

Maybe this is 'owning your shadow', I'm not sure.

This is why nothing changes with the spinning victim/persecutor drama until we see our role and that we are projecting our interpretations onto their intent. Until we fully appreciate the existance of multiple realities, instead of just trying to translate theirs into ours, nothing changes.

Grieving teaches us, so we try try to avoid repeating the situation, without grieving nothing is learned and the lesson repeats. Without working their emotions through to fade, the pwBPD does not learn and endlessly repeats the same dramas that result in the damaged emotions.

A physical analogy, if you hit your hand with a hammer, it hurts, and throbs all day eventually fading, you learn not to do whatever it was that caused you to hit your hand. In a BPD world within minutes of hitting your hand after the initial drama the pain went away, you forget about it, and so are not as wary of hitting your hand again. Next time you may only slightly nick it, but you remember the intense pain it caused last time so make a big scene out of all proportion to how much you hurt it this time.

How often have you heard a pwBPD loudly go "ouch" when thy lightly hurt themselves. They are reenacting a time when they did hurt themselves more severely.

[Cat Familiar]

Grieving teaches us, so we try try to avoid repeating the situation, without grieving nothing is learned and the lesson repeats. Without working their emotions through to fade, the pwBPD does not learn and endlessly repeats the same dramas that result in the damaged emotions.

A physical analogy, if you hit your hand with a hammer, it hurts, and throbs all day eventually fading, you learn not to do whatever it was that caused you to hit your hand. In a BPD world within minutes of hitting your hand after the initial drama the pain went away, you forget about it, and so are not as wary of hitting your hand again. Next time you may only slightly nick it, but you remember the intense pain it caused last time so make a big scene out of all proportion to how much you hurt it this time.

How often have you heard a pwBPD loudly go "ouch" when thy lightly hurt themselves. They are reenacting a time when they did hurt themselves more severely.

Thanks for explaining this so clearly, waverider. I hear the exaggerated response to minor injury frequently from my husband and I could never understand how a man could scream so loudly due to a paper cut.

And the concept of how they never process the emotion, rather they store it in their library, explains why well into my teen years I would hear my mother kvetch at my dad for not installing the screen door the summer she was pregnant with me.

[waverider]

I joke about this with my wife now, when she is constantly making the "ouch" noises I ask her if one of those pesky air molecules bumped into her again. Or whether she stubbed her toe on an ant. At least she can see the humor in it now

[doubleAries]

I think it is important to see, feel, and vocalize what happened to us. But it is more personally important to see our own part--our own patterns that led us into the situation/relationship to begin with.

It certainly is a tad bit ridiculous to be completely innocent victims at the mercy of someone else. Why were they attracted to us? AND--why were we attracted to them?

NC can be a really good thing in some situations--especially situations where violence is likely. In other situations, we (like pwBPD) tell ourselves that we are protecting ourselves, when just maybe perhaps what we are actually doing is avoiding all the stuff we put into storage in our own library (to use waveriders analogy). Because maybe we were attracted to this person because they could trigger up our own unresolved issues. Which gives us the opportunity to access those things we shelved away--OR--blame someone else for hurting us. We all have little threads of the various personality disorders.

NC doesn't teach us how to deal with others or difficult situations. In some cases, it may remove us from the situation so we can get our bearings and figure out what to do. But it doesn't get us off the hook for figuring out what to do. We still need to examine ourselves and our values. Because our boundaries are meant to protect our values. Often we lose sight of the difference between ultimatums and boundary enforcement. Slip into thinking that boundaries are about controlling or changing OTHERS rather than ourselves.

Sometimes NC is self preservation. And sometimes it really IS just punitive, dressed up as victimhood. And it certainly isn't exclusive to only pwBPD.

[HurtinNW]

This is slightly to the side of the discussion, but in the past when I attempted to detach I would go NC. It never worked. It devastated me, riled me up, and kept me thinking of my ex in the worst ways (did he try to call me? Did he try to email?). For me it did feel like a way of going nuclear in a heightened response that somehow avoided the real work, the real sorrow.

This time I have not closed doors to contact. I haven't blocked my phone or deleted his email. I am aware he is out there and could contact me. And this, oddly enough, is helping me deal with what I will do if he does contact me. I have to deal with I feel about him, my side of dynamic, and a whole host of other issues regarding my FOO that I didn't deal with in past breaks.

Not going full block means I have to deal with my side of the street.

I have to become strong in my convictions and belief I am worth more regardless if he tries to recycle. That's a whole different attitude for me, and one that is much healthier and easier.

I think there can be elements of NC that are shunning. Pretending someone doesn't exist denies a crucial part of our humanity. As hurt and angry as I feel, I want to stay connected to my humanity in this process. I once made love to this person. I can't pretend he doesn't exist.

This is a fascinating discussion—thank you.

[Cat Familiar]

My relationship with my ex after the divorce evolved into NC by non-stated agreement on both sides. It was wonderful to be freed up from the constant drama and chaos. During the time I was with him, all my attention was focused on surviving the crisis situations he would throw us into--whether financial, infidelity or some other stupid and dangerous circumstance. My life felt like I was living a metaphorical 911 call 24/7.

When I got out of this relationship, I could finally take a breath and survey my own life circumstances. I was very fortunate to be able to do therapy at that time and I remember my wonderful therapist saying "We've got to build you a self."  I had been so busy all my life "taking care" of disordered persons, starting with my mother, that I never had time to create my own sense of self.

[Grey Kitty]

There is a bit of a spectrum of behavior and motivations for NC

Good -- Cutting contact to protect yourself from toxic influences that would harm you

Bad -- Silent treatment to punish your partner

Not everything is 100% there.

When I first split with my wife (she had cheated), I was terribly hurt and terribly vulnerable. She was also more reasonable/respectful/high functioning than most pwBPD. We were already a few thousand miles apart. [I do remember thinking of flying cross-country to confront her on very short notice, but decided better of it... .]

I was too hurt to even talk to her. We had a few text/email exchanges, but I wasn't willing to risk talking to her voice.

After a couple weeks of grieving and some incredible support from close friends, I was doing better. I finally was able to talk to her, and also discuss some of how I felt about the cheating, and opened that door up a crack.

But was I perfect? Nope... .I kept her at a distance because it was easier for a few days or maybe an extra week just because I didn't want to deal with it... .even though I really was strong enough by then.

I don't say this to beat myself up--I say this to illustrate one subtle point on the spectrum slightly below where I would aim to place my actions.