Conflicted...

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Hey... .whoever... .

So, I've got so many things I'm thinking about and my mind is a little too full at the moment. I just, I don't know what to do and I hate my indecision. I have every right and reason to leave my husband/make him leave, but I haven't. I, just don't want to try anymore. I keep going back and forth from wondering if it just might work to trying to accept it just can't.

I could make pages of reasons why I know that, after seven years, and the same exact arguments/promises are still going on, there's no hope. Why can't I just accept this? I hate the way he treats me, treats our son (which I usually refer to as my son because he practically does nothing for him) and life in general. I've seen almost all of the classic BPD traits in him since right before I found this site and was looking for what the heck was going on.

If at all possible, maybe someone who understands my position with God, and that I also grew up with, well, crazy can offer advice?

I know the usual, get rid of him, why do you think it is you stay with him, you can't seriously be that stupid, you must like being a doormat, the list can go on... .I just, this is so hard. I know and have accepted that I cannot fix him. He has to fix himself and put in all the work. I've considered separation at length and in my state we'd have to live apart for at least a year before we could get a divorce.

Biblically, I don't treat him with respect. I have, and do, but not consistently and I know by doing this I'm hindering him. But I'm just so tired of doing all the work. And the idea that if I pray better and be more consistent with respecting him and God will give me an answer just makes me feel like, it's still my job. EVERYTHING is still all up to me and I'm worn out. I flat out don't want to do it, but feel that if I did I would have literally done everything I can do on my part and would maybe feel more settled with separating...  

I hesitate to post this, because I know it's not a popular way to do things, to pray. I just literally have no one else to ask, to prick their minds for a thought that can be objective as possible. I don't know, I'm just feeling really conflicted right now and I don't want to go through another seven years of this. I honestly don't think I'll survive.

I really don't know exactly what I'm asking for, but if you can make any sense out of my disordered thoughts, thanks.

Sincerely,

Purekalm

[purekalm]

Hey... .whoever... .

So, I've got so many things I'm thinking about and my mind is a little too full at the moment. I just, I don't know what to do and I hate my indecision. I have every right and reason to leave my husband/make him leave, but I haven't. I, just don't want to try anymore. I keep going back and forth from wondering if it just might work to trying to accept it just can't.

I could make pages of reasons why I know that, after seven years, and the same exact arguments/promises are still going on, there's no hope. Why can't I just accept this? I hate the way he treats me, treats our son (which I usually refer to as my son because he practically does nothing for him) and life in general. I've seen almost all of the classic BPD traits in him since right before I found this site and was looking for what the heck was going on.

If at all possible, maybe someone who understands my position with God, and that I also grew up with, well, crazy can offer advice?

I know the usual, get rid of him, why do you think it is you stay with him, you can't seriously be that stupid, you must like being a doormat, the list can go on... .I just, this is so hard. I know and have accepted that I cannot fix him. He has to fix himself and put in all the work. I've considered separation at length and in my state we'd have to live apart for at least a year before we could get a divorce.

Biblically, I don't treat him with respect. I have, and do, but not consistently and I know by doing this I'm hindering him. But I'm just so tired of doing all the work. And the idea that if I pray better and be more consistent with respecting him and God will give me an answer just makes me feel like, it's still my job. EVERYTHING is still all up to me and I'm worn out. I flat out don't want to do it, but feel that if I did I would have literally done everything I can do on my part and would maybe feel more settled with separating...  

I hesitate to post this, because I know it's not a popular way to do things, to pray. I just literally have no one else to ask, to prick their minds for a thought that can be objective as possible. I don't know, I'm just feeling really conflicted right now and I don't want to go through another seven years of this. I honestly don't think I'll survive.

I really don't know exactly what I'm asking for, but if you can make any sense out of my disordered thoughts, thanks.

Sincerely,

Purekalm

[Turkish]

The Bible doesn't talk as much from the woman's point of view, though Paul exhorts husbands to treat their wives kindly. It doesn't talk so much about rearing children either, though I default as a father to what James calls the Royal Law: treat others as you would have them treat you, quoting Jesus on the second greatest commandment.

Jesus put the burden upon the husband, stating that the only valid reason to divorce a wife was for adultery; otherwise, he causes (was responsible) for her committing adultery. There is also the "if an unbeliver leaves, let them" exortation.

You have a lot going on here. I would bet that you've asked for forginveness from God for where you see you may have missed the mark. Have you forgiven yourself though? You're also trying to protect your son. You're doing what he should also be doing.

[purekalm]

Hello Turkish,

I know, there are a few other versus that even say to honor her and such while it explicitly says to respect your husband, and that's so hard. Not like I didn't respect him in the beginning but he quickly eroded that away. Yes, the two scriptures that come to mind are 'father's don't provoke your children to anger' and 'If you child asks for a fish will you give him a stone, or snake' , I'm paraphrasing because I don't remember the exact words, but yeah, I understand what you mean.

Yes, I know those well. I believe he even has, but since he vehemently denies it and I don't have proof... .sigh. That would make it easier, but nothing is easy it seems.

I have, and everyday I realize I'm still bitter and treat him with disrespect. It's harder to let myself off the hook. That's where all those what if's start pouring in. If I hadn't done or said this, would it be this bad now? I know he's caused the majority of our issues, but did I make it worse? Did he start flying downhill only for me to grab the wheel and send us careening out of control? It doesn't help when my family will say that it's not my fault and shouldn't take any blame. I can't really trust them to give me an unbiased opinion.

Unfortunately I have every role right now. I know plenty of single parents have to do this and I applaud them, because it's difficult. The thing is, I've been married for seven years and it's like I have two kids, my son and my husband acts like a sulky teen. He won't even talk to me unless he wants to and always keeps the conversation about himself. Even when I do try to tell him that I have needs too, I want to be loved, cared for and respected.

His thing is he doesn't want to look like the bad guy and has repeatedly told me to just give up on him and kick him out since he came back. He uses guilt and says how everyone else gave up on him, why shouldn't I? And when I don't and tell him it's not my style, he gets mad and pushes buttons purposely to try and make me kick him out. He told me once a couple months before he went to Florida that he actually did cause arguments with me in the mornings when I would take him to work because he didn't want to talk. Most of the time I didn't anyways and we sat in silence and he took that for an argument! He said that we hate each other so much we don't even talk. Lol I was incredulous! I told him no, that's what people do. They like to be in each other's company but may not have anything to say so just enjoy the silence together. He said he never heard of that and was adamant his reasons were correct.

He's mad that I'm smarter than him, but he knew that going in and has made any number of snide remarks. Just because I try to do the right things he accuses me of being "a perfect little angel" and he KNOWS that riles me up because that's nowhere near the truth and he knows it! The absolute worst part though, is the way he treats my son. I can't take it. He's so rough, always sighs and gets annoyed like he's a problem. He's only his son if he wants him to be or he's being pleasant, and that's not fair. My son has come such a long way with a lot of hard work from him, me and his therapists (physical, speech and occupational) and it's not right that his own dad treats him this way.

See, I have the most guilt because none of this would've happened if I hadn't chose him, and it's even worse not being able to correct my mistake. I blame myself for all of my son's suffering, because if I had waited just a little longer, I would've seen through him and never had to go through this. That's what I can't seem to forgive, that it is all truly my fault and for that I deserve the pain, but my son doesn't .  :'(

I don't know. I'm at a crossroads and I just want to be sure that whatever decision I make will be the best one, but how am I to know without seeing the future? Sighs.

I'm sorry for venting so much, I'm just so conflicted right now.

Sincerely,

Purekalm

[Punchdrunk]

I understand how you feel 100%.  The guilt, the pain, the resentment, the untrustfulness.  I'm not a religious person, but we did seek marital counseling from a pastor when we were separated last year.  I honestly get the entire time that my H was twisting and turning everything on me and saying that I did not show him enough affection and love and that's why he was mad.  I couldn't believe it.  I'm the victim, not him.  (Obviously I still resent him and for a number of reasons that I can not forget or move past like the pastor suggested).  Anyways, it was suggested to me that I respect my husband no matter what and that in turn he would show me the respect that I desire.  I think the only way to deal with a pwBPD is to give them exactly what they want and let them walk all over you 100% of the time.  No, but seriously... .If ever I try to speak my mind or ask him to help, it's a huge deal and usually ends in a fight.  Also like you, we have kids... .Three kids.  I understand it's overwhelming to him, but it's overwhelming to me too... .I just DO IT.  My kids come first, always and he hates it.  90% of the time I can't stand him. But that other 10% has jet me around for the last 12 years for some reason.  I tried getting away last year and we were sears red for 4 months then for some unknown reason I let him back in.  I wish I hadn't. My life was well, easier without him here even with all three of the kids.  And the back and forth I can't handle... .I don't want the kids, or I'm taking the kids from you (empty threat) ok, which Is it buddy? Anyways... .Just ranting here. I know I'm no help, but I feel like we're in similiar situations.  I hope everything works out well for you.

[Notwendy]

I have seen several posts from religious posters who are concerned with how to deal with their difficult relationships in accordance with their religious ideals.

I didn't struggle with this so much with my spouse but with my parents. How could I honor my parents while they were being abusive to me? This was a huge dilemma as I interpreted this idea of honoring them with obeying their wishes. I thought that being a doormat no matter what was being a good person.

I also had difficulty with forgiving myself for any mistakes. Upsetting my mother, or saying something not nice about her, or really anything that she considered wrong would it seemed to my parents become an unforgivable mistake. Although it seems that God is a forgiving creator, I had trouble forgiving myself.

It was of interest to me that the idea of a God concept is brought up in ACOA - a group that includes dysfunctional families as well as alcoholism and other addictions. One of the ideas discussed was that children brought up in these kinds of homes thought of God as a "getcha God" - one that looked at all your mistakes and was harsh and judgmental. Children develop a concept of God, and this concept is influenced by their parents. Another concept was "religious" abuse- parents using God as a means of control and manipulation. One of the tasks of ACOA was to reparent ourselves and adjust our God concept accordingly.

There may be much to say about honoring others in the Bible, but I think people who have co-dependency tendencies tend to leave themselves out of this. The reason we are asked to honor others is because, each and every one of us us made in the image of God. But aren't we also made in that image? If so, then how can it be a good thing to not honor our own boundaries, values, feelings, and wishes for others to treat us with honor. But how can we expect anyone to treat us with honor if we don't?

I think we also have to re-frame honor to not include enabling. If I am a doormat and allow someone to mistreat me or take advantage of me, shun their responsibility to me and others, disrespect me as their fellow man, then that is not honoring the better part of them( image of God in them). It is enabling their disrespectful behavior- the worst in them. Sometimes honoring them could take doing something that doesn't make them happy- saying to them- I expect better from you, because you are not living up to your potential for good. The opposite of being a doormat.

There are many ways to interpret religion and God- that is evident by the numerous religions and denominations in the world. In addition, every human has a unique concept of God. It is understanding that people want to do what feels right to them, however, if our God concept was influenced by dysfunctional parents, we may need to readjust those ideas. I would encourage you to discuss this with a religious leader who you trust.

[purekalm]

Punchdrunk,

I understand, I started putting my son first early on because he didn't even make him a priority. It's like he was making me choose my son or him and obviously I'm going to choose the one who literally can't take care of themselves. It's like they are setting themselves up to fail and then blame you when you are forced to choose between two people you love. I also let my husband back twice now for feeling guilty I may have made my decision in haste to caving that he truly meant he'd change. I don't think I could do it again though. I mean, it's so much easier when you don't have to care for your children and the enormous needs of your spouse while trying to find some time in there to care for yourself as well because you don't get any of that. You're help enough to share your grief and frustration, that alone isn't easy.    I hope things work out for you as well.

Notwendy,

Mine started out the same, how am I supposed or even commanded to honor people who hurt or neglect me everyday? I didn't always obey them by any means, I tried to honor what I thought God meant, to give them respect. I don't believe God would want us to actually do something our parents said if it conflicted with what he wants us to do, that wouldn't make sense.

I grew up in a legalistic church where my mom's parents made us go, although neither of my parent's did. My dad constantly used what he thought was scripture to try and manipulate us and made both my sisters not want anything to do with God for a long time as a result. My mom went only when we were in a play and not every time. One pastor literally said that I get an F for effort, it only matters when I make it. No one explained to me that the man named Jesus is also the baby in the manger and that he came for broken people like me. I knew there was a truth there, but didn't have a clue what it all was until I was 22 and really started to look into it all myself.

"Jesus replied, "You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind." This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: "Love your neighbor as yourself." Matthew 22:37-39  I often forgot and still do to love myself and instead it was easier to love and forgive someone else.

When it comes to my husband, telling him that, or anything else just results in either him hating himself more, saying he should die, he wishes he was never born, I want to do better but I don't see it being possible, just kick me out, why do you keep me then... .etc. etc. That's the issue, it doesn't promote healing or change like it would someone else. When someone tells me a harsh truth I get angry, think about it and if it really is true, work on improving that point. It just doesn't even register, partly because at the same time he says he has issues and he knows it, he doesn't really believe it, therein lies the rub. The first step to change is admitting you have issues/an issue correct. How can you change if you really don't believe, regardless of multiple people pointing it out, you don't believe you need to?

That's also the reason I hesitated to post about God, because it isn't about what feels right to me, it's about what is right. That's why there is so many denominations, because people only want to believe parts of the Bible or interpret things in their favor. That's not God, he says this is the way it is, and either you accept it or you don't. You know, that's one of the things I love so much about God, he doesn't really leave a lot of room for the grey areas. That's what I love about a lot of older folks, they tell it like it is, whether you want to hear it or not. They aren't so concerned like everyone is about everyone's feelings to the point no one wants to say anything for fear of upsetting someone. If no one disagreed with anyone, then how are you supposed to bounce off new and helpful ideas from the smallest of things to the most important?

Unfortunately I don't have that right now. Maybe you missed it and it's ok, but I don't have anyone but immediately family right now. My son who has autism has grown out of the program for younger kids but isn't able to go with the kids of his age and still can't sit still and be quiet like most people want in a congregation anymore, so we haven't been in church for a few years. It sucks, but there's nothing I can do and I'm not trying to force anyone to accommodate him. And every pastor/leader would probably tell me something different. My own from a while ago told me to leave him after only being married for a year because of everything that was going on. I personally don't want to abandon people just because they're difficult, or downright impossible at times. I think part of that comes from me feeling abandoned and wishing someone had been there for me.

The whole premise of being able to be a child of God is that he extended grace to us. No one deserves grace, for anything. It's something you can't earn. A simple example is when your child does something wrong and then actually admits to it. They deserve a correction/punishment/whathaveyou but because of the fact they admitted their fault, you will most likely give them grace and soften the blow. It's the system our world runs on, reward and punishment, and then God flies in the face of it and says I'm going to extend grace, I'm going to have mercy. We don't and can't deserve it, that's the whole point. No one can boast at what they did to get it, they have to humble themselves and accept it was nothing they did, and we're all the same, falling short.

He wants us to be the same, so that's part of why I have. I'm not saying that there isn't a bunch of dysfunction in there that hasn't made me stay when otherwise God might've wanted me to leave. I just didn't want to fail, to give up, to not be able to push through when everyone else has given up. Sigh... .I've seen the effects of care given to someone who didn't have it. A short story is when I was in sixth grade there was this beautiful little black girl in first grade who was a menace in class because she was being abused and neglected by her mother. No, I am not in any way racist. I see all colors and think they're beautiful, besides, isn't our race human?   Anyway, I was only supposed to help clean the teacher's classroom but I finished the work so quickly and she knew how my teacher didn't like or want me back in her classroom (she didn't like me because I was smart and poor, honestly) she let me read this little girls favorite books called Junie B. Jones in the hallway. At first she would yell at me, kick, punch and try to bite and slap me. She cussed me out and, man, she was awful, but I was never mad at her because I knew her pain. I did however, set firm boundaries that if she continued to treat me that way I would no longer read her the books and we would return to the classroom. All I did was treat her with respect and give her time and in just a few months her teacher came to me privately to ask what in the world did I do? I was like, huh? She said that not only had she seen in a difference in her, but the principal, other kids and even her therapist. I told her all I did was care and treat her like she was a person and set firm boundaries of what I would and would not take. (Somewhere along the line I seemed to have lost that ability. ) She became so sweet, and polite and she had a sparkle in her eye she didn't have when I met her. I didn't want the recognition, it was enough to see her smiling and not so torn and crying or upset and acting out her pain.

I don't know, I just, seem to have a hard time letting go of the fact that I can help him. It'd be easier if I wasn't attached and expected certain things out of him that he promised he would do. I know he's not a child, but he has been through a lot as well, but it also isn't my job to help or heal him. Maybe a separation would be best. In a year he'd probably decide he's happier without me. I'm sorry, I'm probably just wasting everyone's time here.

Purekalm

[Kwamina]

I'm sorry, I'm probably just wasting everyone's time here.

I have heard it said that the most precious gift you can give someone is your time and attention. So please accept this precious gift we have for you purekalm: our time We have time to listen and respond to you, you got our attention.

[Notwendy]

You did a wonderful thing for this little girl. She needed a friend and you were that friend. Although you did not do this in order to gain, you received a lot in return- you gained a friend too.

You gave from the heart and it was multiplied. The multiplication part is the "God" part. You see, I think we humans are given free will for a reason. We can, in a way , act with God to do good in this world. But God has the ultimate free will to design things. We can only do the best we can. Sometimes we can help, and sometimes we can't. This is because other people have free will too.

You also did something important with this child. You showed her boundaries. We can't know why she behaved like she did, but when kids do this, one wonders if they have parents who didn't teach them boundaries. This was a big favor to her. Then, once you set the boundary, there was room for her to choose.

I did however, set firm boundaries that if she continued to treat me that way I would no longer read her the books and we would return to the classroom

Now, she made the choice to act like a friend, but she could have made the other choice, to behave poorly and the best thing you could have done for her - if she did - was to enforce that boundary. Because that would teach her the consequences of her behavior. She valued your relationship and then was motivated to behave better towards you.

You may or may not be able to give your husband the gift of helping him, but you can give him the gift of boundaries. He may have a mental illness but even as you saw with your friend- a child can learn that if you value your relationship with me, you need to treat me with respect. If a child can learn that, he can too. If he has outbursts, he can learn that it isn't acceptable to rage at you. He can rage by himself- just like a child in time out. You don't have to be present for that.

Part of acknowledging a higher power is to acknowledge that God allows each individual to choose their own behaviors every day. You can do your part, but then, it is up to your H to decide. Grace is good, but enabling isn't. If you had not enforced the boundary on your friend, she would have continued to behave badly.

[purekalm]

Kwamina,

I would agree it's definitely one of them. I'm working on not feeling like a burden when I post. My issues seem inconsequential to others more pressing needs and I don't like to hog the top spot when others need answers and space as well. Thanks Kwamina, I appreciate your and everyone else's time. 

Notwendy,

I appreciate the way you explained that. Often I find it difficult to see the line that separates a healthy boundary and enabling. I try to examine my actions through that filter and sometimes I just can't figure out which side I'm on.

One of the things I absolutely hated growing up was my parents constant screaming, slamming doors, occasionally hurting each other and the inevitable fallout where we get the brunt end of it when almost always my dad stormed out. I started yelling and couldn't stand to see the effect on my son so I stopped years ago with only the occasional outburst I try to curb. He has raged all alone for a long time and still doesn't seem to see anything or hear himself. I've heard it said that when they can hear themselves or have nothing to fight, they will realize things and change. He hasn't, so I don't know what to make of that really. I can see his struggle, and he is by no means a happy man, he's miserable.

I would go so far as to say I know why she did. She was in a lot of pain and may even have been told like I was not to tell anyone for fear I'd be taken away. When you're that little you don't want to be taken from your abusive parent, you just want them or someone to care. Having three siblings who all dealt with our pain different ways, I can understand. It's why I was never harsh with her, it was plain in her eyes how much she was suffering.

I just hate suffering. I hate mine and I hate everyone else's. What I have learned through all this is that I can't help everybody and the care of the entire world is not for me to bear, it's God's. I can only do what I can, and if I focus on the right things I won't be lacking as much as I perceive I am. I've got a certain limit for my last endeavour, counting the cost involved this time, and we shall just see what comes of it. It's not just my choice, but I do have the ability to make the final one if it comes to that, and this time I am actually prepared to let him go if I have to.

Sincerely,

Purekalm