And he ran away...

[bravhart1]

Also want to clarify that these charges aren't going to be on your dime. The DA's office will take your filing and decide to pursue or deny that she committed a crime. They will take it to the ordering judge for clarification and its hounds like this is when your judge gets to encourage the DA to throw the proverbial book at her.

These hearings will be prosecuted by the DA officials and you would be called as witness, but you do not have to pay for the proceeding. She will most likely plead out, and accept some long term public service term, like picking up garbage on the freeway. (Momentary daydream of you driving by her in the orange jumpsuit picking up trash, "wave to mom kids" ok daydream over... .any who
Glad the judge is sticking to his guns. Anything else would have been a complete disaster. Imagine if he had been moved by her sons outrageous behavior and reinforced her perspective. That would have been tragic.
Thumbs up to your judge. Sending strength to you to get through this tough time. I sympathize with your struggle, which I guess is why we are all here.
 

[ForeverDad]

Notice too that all this occurred over a weekend.  Maybe it was just happenstance that the judge's decision was on a Friday, but sometimes I think the prospect of a weekend without oversight is just too tempting to saboteurs.

In this case mother (and less so the influenced children) had all weekend to fix things but she just dug her heels in while also dreaming up excuses such as going to a purported funeral.

Oh, another image, if she gets arrested, she gets searched.  Thoroughly.

[GaGrl]

My DH's ex still talks about her night in jail and having to wear the orange jumpsuit as the most humiliating experience of her life.

[Nope]

She will most likely plead out, and accept some long term public service term, like picking up garbage on the freeway.

You think she'll plead out? Doesn't that go against her absolute view that she is innocent and the actual victim in all of this?

[sanemom]

The judge told our attorney to file a motion to enforce so, in some ways, we are pushing the civil counts through.  Of course, mom's position is that the children's behaviors caused this, and she seemed more defiant than recalcitrant.

And then DH received texts from the boys that they hate him and are disowning him for throwing mom in jail.  Their distortions are so frustrating and sad at the same time.

I will post on the other board, but I really need a pep talk that this will improve.  It looks bad now.

[Boss302]

The judge told our attorney to file a motion to enforce so, in some ways, we are pushing the civil counts through.  Of course, mom's position is that the children's behaviors caused this, and she seemed more defiant than recalcitrant.

And then DH received texts from the boys that they hate him and are disowning him for throwing mom in jail.  Their distortions are so frustrating and sad at the same time.

I will post on the other board, but I really need a pep talk that this will improve.  It looks bad now.

OK, pep talk upcoming... .

Like you, I experienced some of this, but not at this level (I won't bore you with the gory details - look over the history of my posts and you'll see what went down). I can say that what happened to me was literally soul-crushing, and it wasn't as bad as what that poor excuse for a mother and the kids (not letting them off the hook here) are doing to you, so I can't even imagine how much stress this is putting you and your husband under.

I can tell you that in the end, my dear old ex shot herself in the foot so many times that she solved my alienation problem for me. The kids ended up with me because she was too unstable. And then she screwed them both royally (again, look at the history of my posts and my SO, Panda39 - the whole lousy history is there if you're interested), which alienated her to them. Neither kid has spent any time with her in well over a year and a half, and D19 has gone (VERY) low contact. That has caused its' own set of issues as well, but I'd rather deal with those than the constant drama of dear old ex.

If BPDs are good at one thing, it's screwing up royally, which the one in your life is doing a first class job of. Well done, lady!  

That sounds horrible but it's actually the one thing that will eventually work in your favor, as it did in mine, and eventually, it worked in my kids' favor too. Their situation is about 1000% more stable than it was five years ago. They both have a far better set of boundaries and they work them (moreso with the oldest daughter but the younger one is also starting to become far better at it).

So... .long story short, it DOES get better. And five years later, both of my kids have told me how grateful they are that I didn't give up on them, which to be honest, I had every right to do after what they did to me. I can't say that made it all worthwhile, because it's never worthwhile to get your family destroyed, but at least I know I did the right thing.

What you're doing is a credit to you and your husband, and I have a feeling his kids will come to realize that in time. But for now, work on getting past this nasty episode.

I hope that helps.

[sanemom]

In the interest of NOT further alienating the kids, should we just not file the motion to enforce?

[Lilyroze]

In the interest of NOT further alienating the kids, should we just not file the motion to enforce?

You have kids DSD 19, DSS 18, DSS15 at this point they are all upset. Now the 15 year is going to have to go to residential or hospital. Enforcing the one order by judge he gets his phone taken away, Mom sent to jail,  can't talk to Mom ( I get that and why), and now sent to some place to be made to love Dad... .Sorry just putting it where it will feel from him.  I know you didn't order it, why it needs done, what Mom did, has done, and will do. Just well this is going to do worse damage in end, in my opinion. You can't make someone love or see your side, no matter how many drugs, talks, interventions, phone taking or sending to a hospital.

Good luck I know you are trying your best.

 I don't know, have worked with CASA was a Guardian ad litem and worked with DV in court system many years, to me it is walking a tight rope and a mess.

What do you hope to gain? When can DSS15 make his own choice where to live? Even if he has problems, he should eventually have a say in where he feels best or comfortable.

Yes Mom has problems and is a problem, but is there a place he can go where he wants if not with you all?

It is fine and good to win, but not if he now has to be institutionalized, in my opinion. Sure he needs help, will need life skills but seems right now that the formative years of him coming into his own being. Same for other kids this is all dragged out before the court and others to making them take sides. Maybe not your intention or you can't help what Mom does, but sad situation.

I commend you for taking a stand, helping the kids and doing your best. At this point though no one is truly winning, but on paper, not in hearts. I am glad your kids have you and your step kids have a stable feature. Hopefully someday they can see that.  

My heart goes out to all concerned. I know you tried your best.

Again when can he decide at 16 or 18 or 20? I understand he will get SS money the rest of his life and need a guardian to that, if I am up to speed on some of it. Eventually though a sibling or someone else can be appointed by State if need be. Then no matter what he will be alienated from both parents?

There will eventually be a new judge, there always is, when one retires, or has to recuse, or worse it keeps going, now with siblings old enough to petition.
Just thoughts use when you can, throw out the rest be blessed.

Hopefully you can have some peace in next few days.

[Panda39]

IMO you enforce this because if you don't there are no consequences and mom will continue her escapades. She is so hardcore or in denial about the alienation that jail might not even get her to stop.  The kids also need to understand there are boundaries (laws we follow in society) and consequences to their actions in this situation.

Yes, they will blame shift but ignore that.

Jail time will also separate her from the kids for a time if nothing else.

Nothing is going to help with the alienation if you can't get your SS away from his mother (or the older siblings) long enough for him to work through things without her interference.

Mom has had multiple chances and failed to do what she needed to do, now she's at the end of the line by her own actions and of the actions she has orchestrated through her children.

Panda39

[Waddams]

Have her jailed. Set the example of boundaries and consequences. The kids will one day come out of their FOG. Even if they don't reunify with their dad, they'll remember the example of standing up for yourself and against mistreatment. They're gonna need it.

[sanemom]

In the interest of NOT further alienating the kids, should we just not file the motion to enforce?

You have kids DSD 19, DSS 18, DSS15 at this point they are all upset. Now the 15 year is going to have to go to residential or hospital. Enforcing the one order by judge he gets his phone taken away, Mom sent to jail,  can't talk to Mom ( I get that and why), and now sent to some place to be made to love Dad... .Sorry just putting it where it will feel from him.  I know you didn't order it, why it needs done, what Mom did, has done, and will do. Just well this is going to do worse damage in end, in my opinion. You can't make someone love or see your side, no matter how many drugs, talks, interventions, phone taking or sending to a hospital.


Hopefully you can have some peace in next few days.

Have you read what the experts say on treatment of PA?  Because our judge did EXACTLY what the experts recommend.  The problem is that we don't have access to the intensive program yet.  :)SS15 having contact with mom is contingent on him rebuilding with dad.  Just 6 months ago, he loved his dad; now he believes all kinds of delusional things about him (which we disproved in court), and HIS delusional beliefs are the reason the judge decided this was dangerous for him.  I joke that his mom could convince him that his dad poops glitter... .she is amazingly messed up and manipulative.

Severe PA is second ONLY to sexual abuse by a parent in terms of long term maladjustment consequences.  He would fare better off psychologically if she had been beating him.  This is a child protection issue--would a parent not fight to get a child away from their abuser if they KNEW it was causing harm?  Have you talked with abused children and teens?  I worked in therapeutic foster homes where they were removed from their homes, and MOST of them want to go back to their abusers, but the state won't let them.  

I am sorry, but this bothers me so much.  So much of this could have been prevented if our GAL saw it 6 years ago... .we wouldn't have three damaged young adults, and we would not be in a place where he needs intense therapy.

<<off soapbox>>

[Boss302]

In the interest of NOT further alienating the kids, should we just not file the motion to enforce?

If you have professional support (i.e., a therapist), I'd consult with him or her. But I'd absolutely file the motion.

Look, the kid's going to be mad and alienated no matter what. The question is whether he's mad in the inappropriate, lawbreaking environment his mother set up, or whether he's going to be mad with you, in an appropriate environment. What's better for the kid?

Eventually kids do see through the FOG. My ex tried to convince my kids that all of her problems were my fault... .which worked right up to the point that she began screwing them over. Then they learned. It cost my oldest $15,000 of her own money to learn. As bad as that was, the financial damage good old ex wifey could have done to her could have been far, far worse - she's a two time financial fraud felon.

But I'm by no means a professional - if you're in doubt, ask for some guidance.

[Boss302]

I worked in therapeutic foster homes where they were removed from their homes, and MOST of them want to go back to their abusers, but the state won't let them.  

That's one of the most important things I learned in therapy - that kids are hard wired to love their parents, and their moms in particular. Once I understood this, it became easier to accept what was going on - it wasn't that they were "going against me" per se, but that they couldn't go against their basic human programming, if you will. That was actually a huge help with all the anger.

After the 15 year old sets boundaries, then you'll have to work with him on not feeling guilty for having the boundaries. My youngest daughter struggles with that, and for feeling conflicted about still loving her mom. Well, of course she does - we're programmed for it. But she's beginning to get better with that.

But the first step is to get that kid into a stable environment, I'd say.

[Lilyroze]

In the interest of NOT further alienating the kids, should we just not file the motion to enforce?

You have kids DSD 19, DSS 18, DSS15 at this point they are all upset. Now the 15 year is going to have to go to residential or hospital. Enforcing the one order by judge he gets his phone taken away, Mom sent to jail,  can't talk to Mom ( I get that and why), and now sent to some place to be made to love Dad... .Sorry just putting it where it will feel from him.  I know you didn't order it, why it needs done, what Mom did, has done, and will do. Just well this is going to do worse damage in end, in my opinion. You can't make someone love or see your side, no matter how many drugs, talks, interventions, phone taking or sending to a hospital.


Hopefully you can have some peace in next few days.

Have you read what the experts say on treatment of PA?  Because our judge did EXACTLY what the experts recommend.  The problem is that we don't have access to the intensive program yet.  :)SS15 having contact with mom is contingent on him rebuilding with dad.  Just 6 months ago, he loved his dad; now he believes all kinds of delusional things about him (which we disproved in court), and HIS delusional beliefs are the reason the judge decided this was dangerous for him.  I joke that his mom could convince him that his dad poops glitter... .she is amazingly messed up and manipulative.

Severe PA is second ONLY to sexual abuse by a parent in terms of long term maladjustment consequences.  He would fare better off psychologically if she had been beating him.  This is a child protection issue--would a parent not fight to get a child away from their abuser if they KNEW it was causing harm?  Have you talked with abused children and teens?  I worked in therapeutic foster homes where they were removed from their homes, and MOST of them want to go back to their abusers, but the state won't let them.  

I am sorry, but this bothers me so much.  So much of this could have been prevented if our GAL saw it 6 years ago... .we wouldn't have three damaged young adults, and we would not be in a place where he needs intense therapy.

<<off soapbox>>

Yes I have, that is what I mainly worked with is abused children. I worked with CASA for many years and was an agent for abused children. I understand why you feel the way you do.

I hope the children can all heal from this as well as you and your spouse find peace. It is not any easy road.

So in the end when does he get to chose where he wants to live 16, 18, or 20? I hope all can be resolved and not dragged out. I have seen it all believe me. Very hard on the children, and families involved, as many have wins on paper but not in heart.

I have papers and thesis that was used for Families and Children’s Committee in Senate that was used to help enact the Domestic Violence Law. Yes I do understand PA.

This is not about me, but like you also spent lots of time personally protecting children in an abusive relationship and the court system.

Good luck on your journey, I wish you and all well.

[Nope]

I think the point is that you have two years to get this fixed. And I don't just mean get these delusions out of his head but actually getting him to a place where he won't let her tie him in knots again. That's a tall order. Remember, this same kid once said he saw what his mom was doing with SD19 and that you didn't have to worry because that would never happen with him. Where did that kid go? He would rather live in a world of delusions with her than live in a reality where she is sick and her judgements can't be counted on. That's sort of a choice.

I agree that you absolutely need to enforce. Nobody in this situation will benefit from seeing that ultimately there were no consequences. And she needs to be away from all of her kids as long as possible so they can focus on navigating the real world without her interference and to see that they can all survive independently from her.

[Thunderstruck]

I second what Panda39, Boss302, Waddams, and ForeverDad said. Nip this thing in the bud.

If BPDmom doesn't receive consequences to breaking the law then she is going to continue to do it. Which means she will continue to contact DSS15 through the entire 90 days "no contact". Which means he is never going to heal and the whole thing is going to be pointless.

[ForeverDad]

I totally agree with so many of the replies.  Appeasement, acquiescence and inaction don't work, not when the other parent is actively sabotaging and manipulating.  Boundaries and consequences, however difficult, are necessary.  Waddams wrote well, "Even if they don't reunify with their dad, they'll remember the example of standing up for yourself and against mistreatment. They're gonna need it."

Another thought... .If the judge takes these steps to (finally) take real action to fix things and go beyond the minimal tweaks of the past, how could Dad weaken the judge's actions?

And yes, when he's 18 he can do as he wishes.  But he's not 18 yet, he's still a minor and DH's responsibility as parent.  Did DH notice that once DSD19 became an adult, her mother's alienation lessened as she switched her attention elsewhere?  I recall some posts where DSD actually did join the family sometimes.  So helping DSS15 now to get his head on straight should help him to become a better individual and more able to resist his mother's negative influence in the years to come.

I joke that his mom could convince him that his dad poops glitter... .she is amazingly messed up and manipulative.

Must be glitter like this... .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOSkYwFCaUA

[sanemom]

I joke that his mom could convince him that his dad poops glitter... .she is amazingly messed up and manipulative.

Must be glitter like this... .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOSkYwFCaUA
[/quote]

WOW--that is a riot! 

I just realized after looking at our notes that really, we had no choice but to enforce.  The judge TOLD my attorney to file an enforcement motion, and he told him to file for coercive, civil and criminal contempt.  After talking with some friends, it does seem that judges can tell attorneys what to file.  He also said to my attorney, "This is out of your client's hands at this point" when my attorney explained why we didn't want to escalate and get the police involved.

[Nope]

I joke that his mom could convince him that his dad poops glitter... .she is amazingly messed up and manipulative.

Must be glitter like this... .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOSkYwFCaUA

WOW--that is a riot! 

I just realized after looking at our notes that really, we had no choice but to enforce.  The judge TOLD my attorney to file an enforcement motion, and he told him to file for coercive, civil and criminal contempt.  After talking with some friends, it does seem that judges can tell attorneys what to file.  He also said to my attorney, "This is out of your client's hands at this point" when my attorney explained why we didn't want to escalate and get the police involved.


[/quote]

Was her L there? I can't believe anyone representing her wouldn't offer to turn SS15 over right then and there to avoid all of this.

[sanemom]

I joke that his mom could convince him that his dad poops glitter... .she is amazingly messed up and manipulative.

Must be glitter like this... .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOSkYwFCaUA






Was her L there? I can't believe anyone representing her wouldn't offer to turn SS15 over right then and there to avoid all of this.

Her lawyer was there, and DSS15 was returned a few hours later.  A felony is more than 3 days of custodial interference, and we had already passed three days.  Plus, I think since she disobeyed the restraining order within hours, the judge felt like if he didn't follow through with his promise of incarceration, he would lose respect.  Our attorney turned in the enforcement paperwork, and the judge checked with him to make sure he was asking for jail time.

I think her lawyer still wants to believe her crazy lies... .even though she has been called out on them.  Our attorney said that some attorneys recognize when they are representing crazy; other attorneys are too crazy to recognize it.

[Thunderstruck]

Her lawyer was there, and DSS15 was returned a few hours later.

But I thought her "hands were tied" since he didn't want to go and she couldn't make him? ::BIG HUGE EYEROLL EMOJI::

[ForeverDad]

Her lawyer was there, and DSS15 was returned a few hours later.

But I thought her "hands were tied" since he didn't want to go and she couldn't make him? ::BIG HUGE EYEROLL EMOJI::

The ultimate Blame-Shifting:  ":)H caused all this."  No, at any step along the way BioMom could have stepped back and let things calm down and fixed it all.  She didn't, she just steamrollered on with her own agenda.

As for her lawyer, surely he's not that inept and gullible, there are YEARS of history in court, in therapy, everywhere.  And it all identified who the problem person was.  The professionals tiptoed around the real issues for a long time hoping minimal action would be enough and the problem would fade away.  It didn't.  The gentle nudges were ignored and snubbed, now it's some steel bars for a while.

[PinkieV]

My stepson's uBPDm slept with EVERYBODY, so who knows how she's got her claws hooked into the attorney.

The only time I really panicked was when she was in a halfway house and attended a hearing where our attorney said we didn't need to come (we live two states away). She started crying to the judge and he took her and her friend (who had driven her) back to his chambers to question her about something the director of the halfway house had supposedly told her regarding her right to legal representation.

When they came back out, the judge referred to her by her first name.  We were listening in by phone and I freaked, writing notes to my husband to make sure our attorney understood what may have just gone on in there.  At the time our attorney thought I was overreacting, but he learned later on.  Thankfully, it was just a slip by the judge, no harm, no foul.

Sanemom, all I can say is I'm thinking of you all, and hoping for the best outcome.  It's a long, hard road, but three years later, we are all so much better. I hope the same for you as well.

[Boss302]

I joke that his mom could convince him that his dad poops glitter... .she is amazingly messed up and manipulative.

Must be glitter like this... .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOSkYwFCaUA






Was her L there? I can't believe anyone representing her wouldn't offer to turn SS15 over right then and there to avoid all of this.

Her lawyer was there, and DSS15 was returned a few hours later.  A felony is more than 3 days of custodial interference, and we had already passed three days.  Plus, I think since she disobeyed the restraining order within hours, the judge felt like if he didn't follow through with his promise of incarceration, he would lose respect.  Our attorney turned in the enforcement paperwork, and the judge checked with him to make sure he was asking for jail time.

I think her lawyer still wants to believe her crazy lies... .even though she has been called out on them.  Our attorney said that some attorneys recognize when they are representing crazy; other attorneys are too crazy to recognize it.

... .so, how's it coming with the 15 year old? Hoping it's not too uncomfortable... .when my kids "came home" to me it was beyond awkward, and the circumstances weren't nearly as bad as yours.

I also want to ask you a question: what is the big attraction to your husband's kids wanting to live with mom so badly that they are willing to pull this garbage? From what you've said, the environment isn't very stable, so what's the attraction? In my case, part of what dear old mommy used to reel my kids in was setting no boundaries - she let my oldest daughter, who was around 15 at the time, skip school for a year, and let the youngest stay home from school whenever she wanted.

I just don't understand what's so attractive about living there, and I sure hope it's not a case of the ex being a "cool mom" who lets teenage kids do whatever they want, up to and including things that would not be appropriate. These are teenagers, so a lifestyle with no responsibilities or boundaries might be attractive, but I'm just thinking out loud. What's the deal over there? What kind of investigations have been made recently about her mode of living?

[sanemom]

... .so, how's it coming with the 15 year old? Hoping it's not too uncomfortable... .when my kids "came home" to me it was beyond awkward, and the circumstances weren't nearly as bad as yours.

I also want to ask you a question: what is the big attraction to your husband's kids wanting to live with mom so badly that they are willing to pull this garbage? From what you've said, the environment isn't very stable, so what's the attraction?

I think there are definitely no boundaries.  

But also, and probably bigger, is BPD mom left DSS15 and his siblings when DSS15 was only 10 months old. DH had to force visitation on her for years.  

Here is DSS15's chance to finally have a mom.  And I am quite sure he knows BPDmom is falling apart and at risk of leaving him again if she doesn't get money from DH.  Now there's no hope of her getting money from DH (the way she talks, we are millionaires), and she has no job.  He doesn't want BPDmom disappearing again (she told them right before her first CPS call that she was going to have to move 5 hours away).   I really think that fear he has of losing his mom is driving him more than anything else.

She was treating him like a boyfriend--it was icky.

[Boss302]

... .so, how's it coming with the 15 year old? Hoping it's not too uncomfortable... .when my kids "came home" to me it was beyond awkward, and the circumstances weren't nearly as bad as yours.

I also want to ask you a question: what is the big attraction to your husband's kids wanting to live with mom so badly that they are willing to pull this garbage? From what you've said, the environment isn't very stable, so what's the attraction?

I think there are definitely no boundaries.  

But also, and probably bigger, is BPD mom left DSS15 and his siblings when DSS15 was only 10 months old. DH had to force visitation on her for years.  

Here is DSS15's chance to finally have a mom.  And I am quite sure he knows BPDmom is falling apart and at risk of leaving him again if she doesn't get money from DH.  Now there's no hope of her getting money from DH (the way she talks, we are millionaires), and she has no job.  He doesn't want BPDmom disappearing again (she told them right before her first CPS call that she was going to have to move 5 hours away).   I really think that fear he has of losing his mom is driving him more than anything else.

She was treating him like a boyfriend--it was icky.

I guess that makes more sense. And that's really sad... .I'm sorry that this kid has to go through this. I know my kids feel varying degrees of guilt and shame (moreso for the youngest) for not having much of a relationship with their mother. They want to, but she just keeps hurting them.

Maybe jail is the best thing.

What happens with the older two when/if mom ends up wearing an orange jumpsuit?

[Turkish]

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