Did she love me?

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

I think this question haunts me and tortures me more than any other. I have been with my uBPDw for 29 years, married for 23 (we separated a week before our 24 yr anniversary). We have 2 beautiful and amazing daughters, 13 and 11. I did not figure out that my wife was uBPD until July 12, just over 2 months ago, and it had gotten bad and got even worse quickly.

Aug 11, after violence (not the first time) in the home (throwing mugs through the wall and lamps on the ground), I took our daughters from the home and asked my wife to seek in patient treatment. She exploded in rage (thankfully I had a witness there); she ultimately (and to some extent, fortunately) punched me like I have never been punched before - leaving a bruise on my shoulder for a month. I was able to get a protective order, custody of our daughters and possession of our home (for now at least, under temporary orders). Her family thinks I have conspired to created these events and frame her. They have flown our to "support her" and ruin me ... .Financially ... .

So now, after 30 years of trying to make someone happy, who I could never make happy and who blamed me for everything is trying to ruin me ... .

That all sucks, but I iwll get through that, I just hope I can get custody of my daughters and protect them from her behaviors (which she was serially staring to level on them, especially our 13 year old).

What crushes me is the thought that for the last 30 years, as I broke my back, bended my reality (to see things her way), abandoned myself and who I was, that the woman I did this for never really loved me... .And I in hind sight I really don't think she ever did (I had even been telling her for the last 10 years, that it did not seem like she loved me, or even liked me any more ... .After all, how could she say the things she would say about me (or anyone) if she loved them). All I every really wanted was to be loved. Nothing was ever unconditional. I am nearly 50 years old and starting over ... .Never knowing what it feels like to truly be love for the person I am by my partner ... .the woman I worked tireless to try to make happy is now trying to destroy me financially; And I am not even sure who I am any more.

I have never in my life felt like a victim (although the my wife always did - in fact her entire family is like that) ... .But now, I feel like a victim and I hate it; I hate it to my core. I was raised by an alcoholic physically abusive mother ... Even then I did not feel like a victim... But it set me up for tolerating a relationship with BPDw for 30 yrs. And ultimate it ran me over like a bus.

Ironically, my wife would routine say (she is herself a therapist - more irony ... Oh yeah and our first date 30 years ago was Fatal Attraction ... . Think I have the script for Fatal Attraction II), that I was just projecting my memories of my Mom on to her and that I was just imagining it and that it was really me and that none of what I thought I was seeing or feeling was real (or attributable to her)... .God I believed/bought that for so long ... .Until I finally saw (after 30 years, by chance) a description of BPD and all of a sudden, within 30 mins of reading various thing son the web, my entire world/life made sense ... .It was like a pile of puzzle pieces that had been sitting in a pile in front of me ... .Getting bigger and bigger for 30 years ... .Suddenly that all fell into place, all at once ... .Tuesday, July 12th at 3:30 in the afternoon (sitting at my desk at work)... .My world made sense.

I read and read and read for a month; I did not think I could become more sure than I felt on that Tuesday afternoon, but it seemed the more I read and learned, it has become an absolute certainty.

Under the terms of the temorary orders my wife (and I - I agreed to this) will get a full psych evaluation/assessment. I am hopeful the DX will become known (for the sake for my daughters - maybe, just maybe my wife will get the treatment she needs - I hope so, that is what this is all about). In the meatime, I need to protect my daughters as best I can.

This is horrible condition and so harmful to those near it ... .I do not know how I got through 50 yrs of my life and had never really knew anything about it.

I hope others benefit from our experience and I hope I can help others survive this better than I have. Someday I hope to know what it means to be loved ... .But I am scared ... .I fear I may grow old never knowing that ... .I have the love of my daughters which is unbelievable, but I would like to believe I deserve more ... .

Pine Knoll (PK)

[Pine Knoll]

I think this question haunts me and tortures me more than any other. I have been with my uBPDw for 29 years, married for 23 (we separated a week before our 24 yr anniversary). We have 2 beautiful and amazing daughters, 13 and 11. I did not figure out that my wife was uBPD until July 12, just over 2 months ago, and it had gotten bad and got even worse quickly.

Aug 11, after violence (not the first time) in the home (throwing mugs through the wall and lamps on the ground), I took our daughters from the home and asked my wife to seek in patient treatment. She exploded in rage (thankfully I had a witness there); she ultimately (and to some extent, fortunately) punched me like I have never been punched before - leaving a bruise on my shoulder for a month. I was able to get a protective order, custody of our daughters and possession of our home (for now at least, under temporary orders). Her family thinks I have conspired to created these events and frame her. They have flown our to "support her" and ruin me ... .Financially ... .

So now, after 30 years of trying to make someone happy, who I could never make happy and who blamed me for everything is trying to ruin me ... .

That all sucks, but I iwll get through that, I just hope I can get custody of my daughters and protect them from her behaviors (which she was serially staring to level on them, especially our 13 year old).

What crushes me is the thought that for the last 30 years, as I broke my back, bended my reality (to see things her way), abandoned myself and who I was, that the woman I did this for never really loved me... .And I in hind sight I really don't think she ever did (I had even been telling her for the last 10 years, that it did not seem like she loved me, or even liked me any more ... .After all, how could she say the things she would say about me (or anyone) if she loved them). All I every really wanted was to be loved. Nothing was ever unconditional. I am nearly 50 years old and starting over ... .Never knowing what it feels like to truly be love for the person I am by my partner ... .the woman I worked tireless to try to make happy is now trying to destroy me financially; And I am not even sure who I am any more.

I have never in my life felt like a victim (although the my wife always did - in fact her entire family is like that) ... .But now, I feel like a victim and I hate it; I hate it to my core. I was raised by an alcoholic physically abusive mother ... Even then I did not feel like a victim... But it set me up for tolerating a relationship with BPDw for 30 yrs. And ultimate it ran me over like a bus.

Ironically, my wife would routine say (she is herself a therapist - more irony ... Oh yeah and our first date 30 years ago was Fatal Attraction ... . Think I have the script for Fatal Attraction II), that I was just projecting my memories of my Mom on to her and that I was just imagining it and that it was really me and that none of what I thought I was seeing or feeling was real (or attributable to her)... .God I believed/bought that for so long ... .Until I finally saw (after 30 years, by chance) a description of BPD and all of a sudden, within 30 mins of reading various thing son the web, my entire world/life made sense ... .It was like a pile of puzzle pieces that had been sitting in a pile in front of me ... .Getting bigger and bigger for 30 years ... .Suddenly that all fell into place, all at once ... .Tuesday, July 12th at 3:30 in the afternoon (sitting at my desk at work)... .My world made sense.

I read and read and read for a month; I did not think I could become more sure than I felt on that Tuesday afternoon, but it seemed the more I read and learned, it has become an absolute certainty.

Under the terms of the temorary orders my wife (and I - I agreed to this) will get a full psych evaluation/assessment. I am hopeful the DX will become known (for the sake for my daughters - maybe, just maybe my wife will get the treatment she needs - I hope so, that is what this is all about). In the meatime, I need to protect my daughters as best I can.

This is horrible condition and so harmful to those near it ... .I do not know how I got through 50 yrs of my life and had never really knew anything about it.

I hope others benefit from our experience and I hope I can help others survive this better than I have. Someday I hope to know what it means to be loved ... .But I am scared ... .I fear I may grow old never knowing that ... .I have the love of my daughters which is unbelievable, but I would like to believe I deserve more ... .

Pine Knoll (PK)

[patientandclear]

I'm your age and share your fear of not knowing genuine love. I do best when i accept that there is no way to know what will happen. And that the best things possible will occur if I am doing well myself and am confident and healed enough to be open and engaged. That's all we control, right?

But that fear of the empty alternative has led me to re-engage with my BPD several times, because it seemed like the best chance I had at happiness. I've really struggled to hang onto the idea that if this is what it means to be "with" someone, I'd prefer to be alone--though I've felt fine about being alone most of my life, there's something about being this age that makes that much harder for me. Anyway--solidarity on that front.

I ended an abusive marriage ten years ago which sounds very similar to yours (not with the BPD man I post about here). I can't stress enough how important it is for your kids to see you reject these dynamics and try to prevent them from being exposed to them. If your wife has time with them alone, which she likely will, you will not be able to insulate the kids completely, but you can give them a solid safe home base and you can validate their perspectives if they are harmed by her behavior. It's no small gift you're giving them.

Re the psych eval--bear in mind that may not yield a completely accurate diagnosis, especially if based mostly on her self-report. I was surprised that my completely dysfunctional alcoholic raging abusive H came through the psych eval process as well as he did. If there are external witnesses to behavior it may be important for the evaluator to talk to those people. I also ended up having to get my own expert to counter the evaluator's finding that I has a tendency to try to control things. He testified very effectively that abused partners trying to keep a family running and together in the midst of chaos necessarily have to develop very advanced strategies for controlling their environment to the extent possible. (Haven't thought about that in so long--one great outcome of that divorce is that I no longer have to live that way--I've been able to let the control impulse ebb away. Pleasant realization.)

Anyway--your specific experience will differ, but I'm just flagging that you may need to go beyond a standard psych eval to present this adequately to a court.

I'm sorry for the huge feeling of loss, and I identify. If it's any comfort, stepping out of a "I do all this and do you even love me?" dynamic at 50 is much better than at 80 when there is no time to make a different life. You can make one that is not pervaded by that pattern. There's a lot of grieving and acceptance work before you first, though.

[Cat Familiar]

Pine Knoll,
I'm so sorry you're going through this. I, too, left a longterm marriage with an abusive BPD partner. He was very domineering and had convinced me of my worthlessness. It was hard to extract myself, but I never regretted leaving that marriage--only that I hadn't done it years earlier.

I did therapy afterwards (best money I've ever spent) and fell in love with a wonderful man (who unfortunately also has BPD traits--but so much less than husband #1). I can say, yes, there's definitely a chance for you to fall in love again and find a great partner. But be careful and definitely get some therapy; having a family member who programmed us to accept abusive behavior makes it all too easy to tolerate people who are damaged goods. It's so destructive to spend years with a pwBPD who actively tries to brainwash you to be more compliant to their will.

I know so many wonderful women your age who cannot seem to find a nice guy. So don't give up hope for your future. In the meantime, I wish you the best as you proceed to untangle your life and protect your daughters.  

Cat

[Notwendy]

Hi PK, it certainly is difficult wondering if you were loved. I also understand wanting to be in a relationship where you are loved in the way you want to be.

First of all, I want to commend you for appreciating the love of your daughters and for standing up for them. This is the kind of love all children need and deserve.

One of the hardest questions for me is " did he love me?" and I am not speaking of a romantic partner, but my father.

You are your little girls' first love and the example of how a man should show love, and it sets the stage for their future relationships. What a gift you have given them.

I know that in many ways my father loved me. He supported us and had the job of being both parents as my mother is severely BPD. Yet, he upheld her wishes, her point of view and by the time he passed away, she had painted me black to him and he was angry at me and I was basically disowned. I don't know if it was his idea or just hers, and she won't admit to it.

I had to re-frame my idea of love, and romantic love. I was intrigued by the idea that "chemistry" between people is influenced by their families of origin and that we tend to have that "chemistry" between people who match us in some way, feel familiar to us. The idea of love that I had growing up was that I had to work very hard for it, and if I was very good- ( ie kept Mom happy) I would be loved. That was a set up for co-dependency.

I also read once in a book about how people use the term love. One example was "I love chicken". A person who loves chicken- loves it because they feel so good when they are in the presence of that plate of chicken. It tastes good, feels good. But what about the chicken? This is a "love" that is really about them. I was very good at "chicken love" - people would feel good around me, because I would do/give them what they wanted. However, there was little concern for my welfare.

Personally, I think love is different from that. I also don't think it always feels good. Sometimes we act in someone's best interest by saying no to them. They may be angry, frustrated, but we know that what we did was more loving than enabling them.

So back to your question. Did your wife love you? I believe she loved in the only way she knew how to love someone. Did my father love me? I believe he did, but his relationship with my mother was more complicated than I understood. Did my mother love him? I think she did in her own conflicted way.

I don't know the outcome of your marriage, but I believe that in our own wish for love, we may need to redefine what we know and think of love. I think we need to give ourselves the love we wish for- and self care is the key to that. I don't know if we can answer the question- did he/she love me? I think the more important one is - did we love ourselves and how can we do better at that?
 

[Lucky Jim]

the woman I worked tireless to try to make happy is now trying to destroy me financially; And I am not even sure who I am any more.

You put that well, Pine Knoll.  It's easy to lose oneself in a BPD r/s; I did, and it wasn't fun.  I'm in your age bracket as well and had to start over myself after 16 years of marriage.  Yet I don't miss the drama and my life is much more peaceful w/o BPD.

I suspect that, like me and a lot of us here, you hitched your happiness to your BPD spouse, which is a recipe for problems.  Like me, you may have codependent tendencies, which is sort of a given if one is in a r/s with a pwBPD, in my view, because a pwBPD generally requires a lot of care taking.  We put the needs of others ahead of our own needs, which is ultimately a thankless job that leads to burnout.  It's also a way of avoiding our own needs and emotions.

The place to start, I suggest, is with yourself.  Shift the focus back to you in order to refill the tank.  I suspect that you've been running on empty for a while.

LuckyJim