How to know if behavior is abusive or not?

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

The abuse is mutual. What we often fail to realize is that we hurt our partners just as much as they hurt us.

Sometimes, yes. Sometimes, even more so. It goes case by case.
But as a general rule? No. Not even close in many of our relationships.

To make up a metaphor about abuse:
If we're each water, and each a sponge... .
Some do more pouring, some do more absorbing.

What got us there? Kept us there? Helped our eyes to open?

[myself]

The abuse is mutual. What we often fail to realize is that we hurt our partners just as much as they hurt us.

Sometimes, yes. Sometimes, even more so. It goes case by case.
But as a general rule? No. Not even close in many of our relationships.

To make up a metaphor about abuse:
If we're each water, and each a sponge... .
Some do more pouring, some do more absorbing.

What got us there? Kept us there? Helped our eyes to open?

[patientandclear]

I agree with Myself and really differ from Valet's point of view. I did not abuse my ex. I am very confident of that; in fact, I nearly turned myself inside out to deal with him with integrity even when it was very hard and there were more appealing-seeming options. It's evident to me from reading many people's stories that it is assuredly not true in all cases that there was "mutual abuse."

Rose, you shared your story in detail. You too turned yourself inside out to treat him with care and integrity. There is zero to suggest that you abused him. The fact that he may have been hurt by events in your r/ship or that events in your r/ship triggered difficult reactions for him does NOT mean you abused him--this is a feature of BPD that works like machinery inside his head to guarantee his hurt. You are not the one doing that. You can be providing loving affectionate respectful input and the machine converts it into hurt for him. It sucks but you are weirdly largely irrelevant to that process.

To give a common example: when my ex first started to pull apart our r/ship, I protested (and probably didn't do the world's most perfect job of validating but then again, he wasn't telling me his actual feelings, he had a surface level explanation that felt fairly cold and made little sense). Fairly soon though, as we went back and forth we me saying variants on "you don't have to do this, I will listen to you and we can find a way" and him saying "no, I'm sure we need to end this," I accepted his decision, though it hurt like hell. I was respecting him and I believed what he said he was deciding at face value. About six weeks later, we revisited all this, and he was incredibly hurt that i had not kept pursuing. Which I get ... .I've studied and studied and understand how that could be. But the fact is, HE DID tell me he was sure it needed to end. I accepted and honored his choice and let him go lovingly. Which devastated him ... .So you can say I hurt him. But really, I honored his agency and choice, and BPD converted that into something painful for him. He was badly hurt, but it was self-inflicted, and my actions which were the proximate cause were the opposite of abuse.

I think you are dealing with a guy who is going to be hurt, period, if he cares about someone. It's a closed system and you aren't going to be able to prevent his hurt.

[thefinalrose]

Fairly soon though, as we went back and forth we me saying variants on "you don't have to do this, I will listen to you and we can find a way" and him saying "no, I'm sure we need to end this," I accepted his decision, though it hurt like hell. I was respecting him and I believed what he said he was deciding at face value.

This is exactly what happened between us, almost verbatim. Strangely, he would say he wanted to talk about it and I would choose and appropriate time and place, and ask him if he wanted to, and he would get angry and say "I don't want to continue this relationship". Unlike yours, though, he's not been back. Sometimes I wonder if he wants me to keep asking him, which doesn't make any sense to me. Every time I tried he's jump down my throat.

You say I've not done anything that's been abusive, but there's certainly times I've said things which I believe now have been very hurtful toward him, like snapping at him and telling me he's using me, playing with me, jerking me around, that he doesn't understand anything, etc. I apologized to him for that, but it seemed that didn't matter to him. Now I hate myself for hurting him and I'd take it back if I could... .

[MrWtn1978]

I struggled with this as well.  I read a great book "The emotionally destructive relationship" and it was so helpful.  It didn't have to be abuse to be wrong, damaging... .destructive.  My BPD mom is definitely not abusive, she is the type that flies under the radar and most people sympathize with her.  She doesn't scream, rage, threaten suicide, curse, etc... .  So it was easy to say, well, she could be so much worse, this isn't really abusive... .  But the controlling things she does, how she expects everything to revolve around her, her emotional neediness, emotional incest etc... .  those are all damaging to me.  It makes me question my gut feelings.  It silences my true feelings because I am terrified of being honest and the pain she will pour out on me. 

Sometimes when we are in a destructive relationship we do things that are wrong as well.  We fight fire with fire.  We are not innocent 100% of the time.  Our buttons get pushed and we react wrongly.  The difference is, we KNOW it is wrong, can apologize, etc... .  We feel BAD about it.  The BPD just doesn't have the empathy... .just excuses to why their destructive/abusive behavior is ok and it is really your fault for triggering them, etc... . 

Don't over analyze all of this.  if you've done wrong, apologize sincerely and specifically.  You don't bear 100% fault for an argument or whatever happened.  Clean your side of the street and let the rest of the guilt roll off of you.

Hugs!

[vortex of confusion]

... .I've said things which I believe now have been very hurtful toward him, like snapping at him and telling me he's using me, playing with me, jerking me around, that he doesn't understand anything, etc. I apologized to him for that, but it seemed that didn't matter to him. Now I hate myself for hurting him and I'd take it back if I could... .

I can really relate to this. I spent 15 years tying myself in knots trying to be the perfect wife. I spent 15 years keeping my mouth shut and trying to have compassion for him and his struggles. The last thing I ever wanted to do was hurt him. I know that kicking him out and limiting his time with the kids is very hurtful to him. I can't be concerned with his feelings any longer. He spent all of those years ignoring my feelings and my very reasonable requests. Asking him to put the kids to bed so I could get a shower or catch up on some sleep is a very reasonable request. He would act as though my request was too much and would then fall asleep and the kids would come get me anyway.

When I reached the breaking point, I said and did a lot of things that were hurtful to him. I continue to say and do things that are hurtful to him. I have had to realize that there are times when the truth hurts. I have 4 kids with my stbx and it is impossible to communicate with him without hurting his feelings.

He has been unemployed for a year now and has been out of the house for 9 months. He has contributed a little bit financially but the lion's share of everything falls on my shoulders. I don't have the time or patience to be nice any more.

Protecting yourself and standing up for yourself can feel terrible at times, especially if you are like me and grew up in a home where any attempt at setting boundaries was seen as being selfish or rude or abusive. That has been difficult for me to navigate. I think that is why I stopped trying to figure out what was abusive and what wasn't and instead tried to focus on what I could live with from him and from myself. If I was behaving in ways that felt abusive or wrong to me, then I needed to figure out how to change it.

I have often times shared with friends that I feel like such a b***h for the things that I am saying and doing. It tickles me because they look at me like I am nuts and say things like, "Are you serious? You have been more than nice to him. If anybody else had been in your shoes, they would have said and done a whole lot worse." That is not to say that I am looking for an excuse to be mean. It has been an interesting journey to try to figure this stuff out and get a grip on reality so that I can take better care of myself and live in ways that are true to my values.

[vortex of confusion]

Don't over analyze all of this.  if you've done wrong, apologize sincerely and specifically. 

In my experience, it was really difficult in the beginning to figure out what I had done wrong. It was difficult to figure out what was on my side of the street and what was his. I spent a lot of time analyzing things because I was trying to get a grip on what was wrong and what wasn't. I had also spent a lot of time apologizing for anything and everything. At one point, I felt like I needed to apologize to him for merely existing and breathing the same air as him. That was very wrong yet that is how I felt. It was the process of analyzing things that helped me to see that I did NOT need to apologize so much and I did NOT need to continue to tie myself in knots.

According to him, I was wrong for having wants and needs that conflicted with his agenda. I had to realize that the things that I was wanting were NOT wrong. Trying to communicate with him was NOT wrong. My communication tools were lacking and that made for some really messed up situations. I felt horribly guilty for a long time because of my crappy attempts to communicate with him. No matter what approach I took, he could not hear me. I tried nice. I tried validating. I tried mean. I feel like I tried everything and nothing worked. I wanted him to hear me.

Sure, I could feel guilty for some of my poor behaviors and I did for a while. It wasn't until I accepted that my biggest "wrong" was trying to fight for a relationship that the other person did not want unless it continued to be one sided and it continued to be a situation where he got to have all of the feelings and hardships and I got to stand by and be his rock. I am NOT a rock. I spent so much time having compassion for him and understanding him that I neglected myself. My behavior went downhill when I had nothing left to give and asked him for help and his response was to check out further and suggest seeing other people. This was after being together for 15 years and 4 kids.

[patientandclear]

Yes to what Vortex said. The fact that he isn't going to like being told that he was hurting you, taking you for granted, playing with you, doesn't mean that it isn't valuable information for him or that you were wrong for sharing it.

The only growth my ex and I ever have had has resulted from me being direct and honest with him about my position and my feelings. I was respectful and tried to use I statements not you statements ... .Still, it has rarely gone well at the time. He has given months of silent treatment, or walked away from my boundary-setting seemingly ready to be done with the r/ship. Much later (10-15 months) he has come back into the picture with more clarity btwn us about how to try to go forward. It still hasn't worked in any sustained way--we are not presently in touch and it's been 5 months; somehow this time I feel I may not hear from him again. But. The point is, we have only broken out of user-used dynamics because I said and did things he really didn't like, and reacted very badly to at the time. It moved us ahead though. Which is not why I did it--at the time, each time, I've felt like it would probably be The End. I'm telling you this so you see that sometimes the initial negative reaction/extinction burst isn't going to be their ultimate view. We owe our loved ones our best selves. If they don't deal with that well, we need to let go of the outcome. Sometimes they manage to re-think and re-calibrate down the road. Sometimes they don't. But we did not cause their response; that is theirs to own.

I agree with Vortex; the decision to own and express one's own feelings and needs is so terribly important. There of course are ways to do that that are more or less calm, constructive and respectful of self and others. From all you've said, it seems likely you were on the self-contained and respectful side of the continuum as you told him you felt played or used or that it hurt for him to switch up his plans or feelings so often.

The guy you are writing about clearly struggles with true intimacy. He reminds me of the pwBPD in my own life. He likes me because I know and care about him warts and all, and he feels safe with me in a sense (knows my feelings for him don't depend on his surface level performance). At the same time, that seems to make him terrified of letting me all the way in. He systematically holds me at arm's length in ways that really hurt. I've tried to show up in ways that would allow him to address that if he is able and wants to. He either (for now) is not able or doesn't want to. This is where radical acceptance comes in, and my own trauma recovery work. I tend to process his decisions as rejection and abandonment in ways that hook into the deep longstanding vulnerabilities in my sense of self. It takes a lot of conscious over-riding of those reactions for me to accept this is about him, not me, and let go of the impulse to try to fix or change it. He would have to close the gap and he probably won't. But the solution is not for me to make myself OK with hurtful behavior or convey to him that I am OK with it. The solution is to recognize that, for now at least, what I need and what he can give don't match. That hurts us both (but it doesn't mean I'm being abusive).

I think accepting that he has difficulty processing and responding to deep emotional connection may be an important next step for you. You did not cause that. You probably dealt with it better than almost anyone he's known--which just heightens the stakes if that makes sense. Accepting that this is really true of him may help you let go of a sense that there is something you could have done differently to change the basic dynamic.

[thefinalrose]

Thanks all. Vortex and Patient - you've both been really helpful. I can sort of see how his behaviors are similar to the behaviors of the people in your lives. I've definitely thought that maybe he has a problem with emotional intimacy. I also think it's possible that maybe he's had some similar experiences to mine way in the past during his childhood, and I've triggered him without knowing or meaning to. However, despite all of this I can't stop blaming myself. I've tried doing so much research, but I always find things that validate that I'm the one who's crazy and messed up. Just this morning I read this thing about how people with PTSD ruin relationships, and some of the things there were some of the things I said to him, and now I'm having a very hard time not hurting myself and I completely hate myself because no matter what he did, everything is all my fault. He told me to talk to him about those things, then he said I'm crazy and bothering him, I don't know what to think except I ultimately ruined everything because I'm crazy and toxic.

[Fie]

Just this morning I read this thing about how people with PTSD ruin relationships, and some of the things there were some of the things I said to him, and now I'm having a very hard time not hurting myself and I completely hate myself because no matter what he did, everything is all my fault. He told me to talk to him about those things, then he said I'm crazy and bothering him, I don't know what to think except I ultimately ruined everything because I'm crazy and toxic.

If you ask me, this quoted issue is far more important than the question whether yes or no you crossed some lines of abuse at some point in the relationship. Why do you feel so much guilt, more then most people ever would ?

Why are you so strict on yourself ? It is good to reflect on what we did wrong in our past relationships. It is however also good to realize that certain people are difficult, and get out the worst of us. We can be gentle with ourselves and realize that almost everyone would have reacted in a mean way towards the BPD, at some point. What is important also is that we realize that we did too much to fix a situation that could not be fixed, and we stayed too long in a toxic situation. 99% of the people would have run at the first sign of BPD. Yet, we choose to stay. Why is that ? Only when we discover the dynamics of it all can we avoid choosing a new unhealthy partner. For me the answer was in the way I was raised.

If you ask me, that is the real issue. Because correct me if you think I'm wrong, but now you are thinking in circles, in a way that will never solve anything and sure will not help you. ('I am a bad person'

You are *not* a bad person (even if you acted in an abusive way at some point). There are no bad persons, only bad behaviors. If you think you had some bad behaviors, that's perfect. At least you realize, so you won't do them again. Also because from now on, you need to focus on how to avoid unhealthy partners. And you can only do that if you address these very questions (why am I so hard on myself / why do I always feel guilty). Otherwise you will attract BPD time and time again. They just love people who tend to feel guilty and take the blame for everything.

It is time to take care of yourself now.

[thefinalrose]

If you ask me, this quoted issue is far more important than the question whether yes or no you crossed some lines of abuse at some point in the relationship. Why do you feel so much guilt, more then most people ever would ?

I don't know, my therapist is trying to get me to understand this also. After reading through all my old texts with my ex, I've realized that some of his behaviors are disturbingly similar to my parents'. My parents were highly abusive both physically and emotionally, and I was always blamed for it because I was "crazy" according to them. From a very young age, nearly from infancy. Therefore I caused the abuse according to them. I mostly know now that's total BS, but now whenever confronted with a situation like with my ex, especially if I'm blamed for it, and especially if I'm blamed for it because I'm "crazy", I automatically believe it's all my fault and there's something intrinsically wrong with me, because that's how I've always been treated by my parents, and by many other people. So many people behave horribly toward me and I get upset and according to them I act "crazy", but they never acknowledge their own behavior. But then if I say that, people jump down my throat and tell me I'm just being "too sensitive". Even someone here said that to me. So I'm not sure what to do, just be an emotionless robot? Because if I have any sort of emotional reaction to anyone's behavior, the person behaving in a way that upset me twists everything around on me and says I'm the one who's acting "crazy"... .

[Fie]

Let me see if I understand you correctly.

So, some people tell you they think you are crazy (or treat you as such). You are crazy, so your craziness causes them to abuse you. Action - reaction.
Convenient for them is that you seem to believe that yourself. So they can continue their abuse. Every now and than you get tired of the abuse, and you tell them to stop, and that their actions are abusive.
So they tell you that you are too sensitive, and you should continue taking their crap.
Correct ?

Regardless of whether you are crazy, or regardless of what you do/don't, people who choose to abuse you, make this choice themselves. No one but ourselves are responsible for our own actions/thoughts... .blabla.
So you cannot actually make someone abuse you. If someone abuses you, this is entirely because they want to.

(also and only as a sidenote I think there is a thinking mistake in their reasoning too. If you are so called 'too sensitive' it would mean that in reality there is nothing going on, there is no abuse. While they actually do admit there is abuse, only it is there because you are crazy.)

I think the remark about a member on here telling you that you were too sensitive was a massive trigger to you. The being 'too sensitive' for obvious reasons has a huge load in it. So when someone tells you exactly the same words but in a totally different context, the 2 get linked together, while they have nothing to do with each other.

It could be that in this specific situation where the board member mentioned this, you were indeed a bit sensitive (I haven't read it). But in the case were one is abused, it is not 'sensitive' to not want to abuse, it is 'normal' and the only healthy reaction.

So I'm not sure what to do, just be an emotionless robot? Because if I have any sort of emotional reaction to anyone's behavior, the person behaving in a way that upset me twists everything around on me and says I'm the one who's acting "crazy"... .

I'll tell you what I think the only healthy reaction is : walk away from such a person. Get out of their life.

Once you understand the dynamics about this all, and start applying it, you will see how you will attract less abusive people. It has worked like that for me. Suddenly there are no abusive people in my life anymore :-)

Why not give it a go ? Even if you insist on believing you are crazy and are causing others to abuse you, I am sure you must admit there are people who are not abusing you. Why don't you see what happens when you start avoiding abusers. One at a time. Just for the sake of trying.

[thefinalrose]

So, some people tell you they think you are crazy (or treat you as such). You are crazy, so your craziness causes them to abuse you. Action - reaction.
Convenient for them is that you seem to believe that yourself. So they can continue their abuse. Every now and than you get tired of the abuse, and you tell them to stop, and that their actions are abusive.
So they tell you that you are too sensitive, and you should continue taking their crap.
Correct ?

Pretty much, yes. If I get upset about someone's behavior, they say I'm "overemotional" or "unstable", or they just look at me with this look on their face and say "ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm no one's treating you that way".

I'll tell you what I think the only healthy reaction is : walk away from such a person. Get out of their life.

This person (my ex) kicked me out of their life because I suddenly became "too much to deal with". Everything seemed fine until I started letting him know I was uncomfortable about some of his behaviors. Once I started questioning him, or bringing certain things to his attention, everything about me suddenly became a problem. He distanced himself from me. He accused me of things I didn't do. Finally I completely lost it and screamed at him that he was mistreating me and all the behaviors that were upsetting me (here I admit I definitely could have/should have expressed this in a different way and not ripped his head off for it... .granted, every time I tried to have a conversation with him about anything previously he'd immediately shoot me down). And then he pretty much told me he wants nothing to do with me anymore and that I'm toxic and unhealthy for him. Even worse is he would call me those things and then blame me and get angry with me when I started calling myself those things... .

But then I think - what if he wasn't really behaving that way? What if I perceived things that weren't actually happening? What if I've just really hurt him somehow and that's why he was treating me that way? What if he himself is just really hurt and traumatized by something in the past, or what if I've triggered him somehow without knowing it? I tried really hard to have a conversation with him about this several times, in a much calmer way than when I had yelled at him, and he refused, just saying over and over that he didn't want to continue talking to me or having anything to do with me. I really just want to understand, even if he didn't want to continue the relationship either way, I believe I deserved some sort of logical explanation other than "you're crazy and I can't deal with you anymore"... .but he said he doesn't owe me an explanation or anything at all. This came on the heals of him swearing he loves me and cares about me more than anyone. He also involved himself in my personal problems even though I told him several times to butt out because I was afraid he would abandon me once he found out some things, but he kept insisting, so I let him, and then - lo and behold! - he demonized me and threw me away like a piece of freaking garbage. I reminded him it was his decision to involve himself and he had promised me he wouldn't do what he was doing, but he wouldn't even answer me.

So I really have no idea... .maybe I'm the personality disordered one. I definitely have personal issues because of past abuse, although no psychologist has ever said I have a personality disorder. I know I'm thinking in circles but it's like an insane out of control carousel and I can't jump off even though I really want to.

[Fie]

But then I think - what if he wasn't really behaving that way? What if I perceived things that weren't actually happening?  

Unfortunately that's a nasty side effect of being around BPD too long... .we start questioning our own perception of things.
Don't feel alone, I have been there. Freaky because how can you differ... .when can you trust your instinct about being right, and when not... .

 What if I've just really hurt him somehow and that's why he was treating me that way? What if he himself is just really hurt and traumatized by something in the past, or what if I've triggered him somehow without knowing it?    

I'm sure he was traumatised but that's not a reason why you should want to accept his crap. And I'm sure you triggered him in many ways, as BPD are very easily triggered, by just about anything.

If you really want to know if you have a PD (I don't think you have otherwise you would never question yourself like that), you could consider having yourself tested by a therapist ?

Keep us updated. You are not alone. Even if you turn out to have  PD after all.

[thefinalrose]

It's just really confusing... .my current therapist says she doesn't believe in BPD as an actual diagnosis, as she believes it's an outdated label that psychologists still use to basically give up on a patient who has experienced serious emotional trauma in the past. She hasn't said whether she thinks I am like that or not, but she has said I have CPTSD. I tried working with about a half-dozen other mental health professionals before her, mostly psychiatrists, and they never said anything about me having a personality disorder. They've always said PTSD and depression, although I once was misdiagnosed with bipolar disorder even though I'd never been manic.

Thanks for your help, in any case. I try not to replay my ex's words in my mind, but it's difficult. I just don't understand how someone could be okay with repeatedly lying, twisting the truth, blaming, denying, accusing, and refusing to even have a conversation about anything really. I don't understand how someone could act like that. When he accused me of saying or doing things that upset him, I would immediately apologize and ask him what exactly I'd done and how it affected him, and what I could do differently, and analyze my own behavior and try not to do it again. The fact that he can't even offer 10% of the same reaction when I've told him he's hurt me is just even more hurtful... .

[vortex of confusion]

I've tried doing so much research, but I always find things that validate that I'm the one who's crazy and messed up.

What search terms are you using? If you go looking for information to validate that you are crazy, then that is what you will find. I remember going through a similar phase where I was convinced that everything was my fault. I needed to figure out how to be a better wife, blah, blah, blah.

Somewhere along the way, I picked up a book about verbal abuse. I read it and then asked ex to read it. Both of us could see ourselves in the writing. One of the things that stood out to me is that there are times when the person being abused starts taking on the behaviors of the person doing the abusing. It is fighting fire with fire. The problem is that when you do it, he calls you on it and acts like you have committed a major crime. If he did it, he would completely deny that he did it.

I did bad things too. I think the difference is that I would admit to doing it. I would say things like, "Yes, I yelled at you. I was frustrated and mad." If he yelled or was being a jerk, he would completely deny it. "I wasn't yelling. I was raising my voice to be heard." or something like, "I am not mad. That is my normal tone." He and I have gone round and round about his "grumpiness". Or there was him shutting down and shutting me out. Here is an article about 15 types of verbal abuse: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-mysteries-love/201503/15-types-verbal-abuse-in-relationships

The two things from that article that stood out for me were forgetting and trivializing (withholding and others hit the mark too). I bring those up because ex would forget all sorts of things. I didn't really see his forgetfulness as abuse. I thought he was just forgetful. It was a big red flag for me when he could remember when to meet his buddies online for one of his games but he couldn't remember to put the clothes in the dryer for me.

Ex is excellent at trivializing. When I got a job, the first thing he said was, "What about my activity (or something like that)?" There was no congratulations or celebrating. He completely trivialized my accomplishment. When I tried to talk to him about how difficult it has been for me to work two jobs and care for 4 kids on my own, his response was, "This isn't easy on me either." and then proceeded to tell me how difficult his life is and how much he struggles with this, that, and the other. (Maybe that would be discounting too.)

The point is that I did start reacting badly. I think the bad reactions that I had came from feeling backed into a corner. I felt ignored and inconsequential. His behaviors were subtle and could easily be denied or explained away. My reactions were big and obvious once I got to my breaking point. 

Here is an interesting article about the line between victims and abusers: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/anger-in-the-age-entitlement/200905/the-line-between-victims-and-abusers

I really like this article because it points out how the lines have been blurred and make it difficult to determine who is the abused and who is the abuser. I can really see how I began engaging in preemptive strikes. I know full well that I went from having compassion for him to resenting him.

I will never forget the morning when he was leaving for work and I said something to him. I probably said it in an ugly tone. He response was to call me a b***h. I said, "Excuse me! You don't get to call me that." (Or something along those lines.) We spent quite a bit of time going back and forth. He insisted that he did NOT say it. I know that I heard it and I was going to push the issue until he admitted it. I probably shouldn't have pushed so hard but I did. It was at a time when I was finally starting to make sense out of things. There were so many times that I would get upset and he would deny that I had any reason to be upset. I would in turn get even more upset because I felt like I was losing grip on reality.

He told me to talk to him about those things, then he said I'm crazy and bothering him, I don't know what to think except I ultimately ruined everything because I'm crazy and toxic.

Telling a loved one that she is crazy is abusive. If a loved one continually says or does things that indicate you are a bother, that is a form of rejection and it does a real number on one's self esteem.

Try to look at it from a more objective stand point. What was the situation? What was he doing? I had to break things down more objectively to see things more clearly. For example, I felt like I was a bother to him because he would get huffy like a little kid when I asked him anything. It seemed like his games and everything else was more important than me. It seemed like there was rarely a good time for us to try to talk about things. If he did find the time to talk to me, it usually went from me trying to share my concerns and feelings to being about him and whatever it was that was going on with him and his life at that time.

It sounds like the situation you were/are in has you in a place where you are feeling completely crazy. I think it is normal to feel that way when you are trying to end a relationship and figure out what was real and what wasn't. It is a process. I know that my emotions and feelings have been all over the place.

[thefinalrose]

Thank you, Vortex. At first I searched terms just like "emotional abuse" or "abusive relationships", after I read through all his messages again and saw that some of the things he said and did were similar to things my parents used to say and do, which I knew at the time were abusive, after working with my therapist. I ended up following the breadcrumb trail, as it were, and began finding things about narcissistic abuse, personality disorders, etc., which is actually how I ended up here.

To give you an example of how I read things that I find that validate my "craziness", for example, is one of the links you shared. Reading through the first article, I see about half of the different types of verbal abuse are things my ex has done. But then I look at "forgetting", and here's what I think:

My ex accused me of continuing to talk to him about things that were wrong in my life or when I was upset after he told me to stop. I apologized and told him I didn't remember, because I didn't. Then when I looked back at all the messages, I found where he had told me to stop and I had stopped, but three months later he accused me of having never stopped. So what did I not remember? I guess I didn't remember that I was continuing to talk to him about whatever he didn't want me to talk to him about, because I hadn't. But then the more I look at the messages and remember, the more I think that he didn't just want me to stop talking about my personal problems, but about anything that made him uncomfortable in general - including expressing any feelings I might have, doubts, discomfort about his behavior, telling him I care about him, or making any mistakes whatsoever. I had to make sure I was on the straight and narrow for fear of upsetting him, but somehow I still managed to. Meanwhile, it's apparently okay that he "forgot" that he overstepped my own boundaries that I was trying desperately to erect, by repeatedly asking me personal questions about my mental health, my childhood, my family, my past experiences, etc., and also his promise that he would never abandon me like he ultimately did. But I still look at the one time I supposedly "forgot", and I think:

"Oh no, I must have been abusive too, or maybe because I forgot and that means I'm abusive, that means it's okay that he blamed me and treated me like I'm nuts, because I probably am, and this proves it. I'm just as abusive as he is, if not worse, look at what I've done. Oh no, I've done something terrible, I need to apologize again, I deserve this punishment, I'm a horrible person. Look, I must have lied, why didn't I remember? What if I really did remember but pretended to forget? This proves I'm an abusive person."

Same thing with #14 denial:

"What if I'm just denying that I've behaved badly or that I'm abusive? What if I'm denying that everything is all my fault by thinking maybe he's had a traumatic past or that he has a personality disorder? How do I know I'm not just trying to escape blame for everything by believing he has personal problems? I must be in denial because I'm not accepting responsibility for everything."

And #15 abusive anger (which, again I acknowledge I did yell at him a few times because of his behavior, which I shouldn't have done):

"I yelled at him because he upset me. Oh no, that means I'm really abusive, it doesn't matter what he's done that I yelled at him, the fact I yelled at him means I'm so abusive and horrible. I'm a terrible person."

I apologized to him for the yelling. I even apologized to him for ever making him feel bad or overstepping boundaries or mistreating him, even though I had no idea what I'd done wrong. He never apologized to me for anything, including betraying my trust and breaking his promise to me. And seemingly without any remorse. I showed him his own text messages where he had repeatedly asked me personal questions and tried to get involved with my problems and where I had told him no several times, and where I'd told him I was afraid he'd abandon me because of it, and where he promised me he never would. He just looked at them indifferently and never said anything about it. He just kept reiterating that I had solicited his "help" in my personal issues without his consent, he twisted the entire chain of events around so that I was the one who was overstepping boundaries and forcing him to do things he didn't want to, even though I had the evidence in hand. It got even worse when he accused me of taking advantage of him and his "willingness to help", which I had never done intentionally and was very afraid I'd come across that way. So if I did really come across that way without meaning to, does it still make me abusive?

[patientandclear]

Rose, I think you are missing the part about BPD where the person has distorted perceptions. The fact that he feels you bulldozed in by telling him about your own struggles when he didn't want to hear ... .He probably really thinks that, but not because it happened. His perception and beliefs are distorted. Probably due to experiences and expectations he formed dealing with other people long ago in his formative years. You become a stand in for those people while he tries to protect himself and not allow himself to be hurt and taken advantage of or whatever happened back then.

My ex occasionally voiced that he felt I had a hidden agenda. He was very suspicious that people who want to get close to him do have a hidden agenda. I don't and didn't; treating him with integrity and honoring his boundaries was my watchword. But he was the victim of childhood sex abuse. The abuser did have a hidden agenda, presented as his friend and confidante, etc. Does that example help you see that the perception of the guy in your life does not make it true or real? It IS sad, because it prevents him from taking on board and remaining connected with a deep and genuine love. Probably you are not the only time he has squandered such a love, either.

There is no sign you have a personality disorder! And there is no sign you are abusive. The very fact that you agonizing about these questions rather than dismissing them after an hour's thought is good evidence that this is true.

[vortex of confusion]

Try researching toxic relationships. It might be easier to make sense out of things if you aren't trying to focus so much on whether or not a behavior is abusive.

There is another side to him not wanting you to talk about things wrong in your life. Even if you did forget and bring it up again, it might be helpful to ask yourself, "Why would I want to be with somebody that can't handle me sharing?" If I have to remember a strict set of rules regarding what I can and can't talk about and how to interact perfectly, what is the point of being in the relationship at all?

Also, I think it helps to look at the types of things that are being forgotten and the frequency of the forgetting. It is normal to forget stuff. I am not perfect at remembering everything all the time.

So what if he has a personality disorder or a traumatic past. Why does that excuse poor behavior? Lots of people have had traumatic pasts and don't use that as an excuse to be jerks. Some people are able to acknowledge the trauma and try to find ways to overcome it rather than use it as an excuse to be a jerk. If you apply the same logic to yourself that you are applying to him, then you get to excuse away all of your own poor behavior.  What I mean is that it seems like you are trying to make excuses for him and his behavior and hold yourself to an almost impossible standard.

What would happen if you tried to apply the standards you have for him to yourself? When I thought about that, I decided there was no way in heck that I could use my past as an excuse to be a jerk. So, I did a little thought experiment about what would happen if I tried to apply the same standards to him that I have for myself. That was fun because there is no way in heck I would let him get away with the stuff he had been doing. He and I went to one counseling session together and the counselor pointed out that I tolerated too much from him because I did not see him as an equal. I did not demand that he act like an adult. I was sitting around making excuses for him acting like a child.

How would you feel if somebody told you straight up that you are being abused? I worked with a life coach and tried to take responsibility for a lot of stuff that happened. The lady was very unforgiving. At one point she told me that I was being abused and was in extreme denial. I was so unbelievably mad at her. I refused to accept it. I refused to hear a word she was saying. I would rather see myself as the abuser because that meant that I could change things. It would give me the illusion that I could change something and make things better and find a way to stay in the relationship.

I will own the fact that I behaved poorly. Was my behavior abusive? Maybe, maybe not. It doesn't matter because I can look at it and say, "I don't feel good when I act like that." I can look at my behavior and say that I did certain things that were not healthy. I also recognized that I had lost the ability to be in a relationship with ex and react in ways that were healthy.

I can see how being with ex sends me right back to that place where I am expected to be perfect. I grew up the golden child and had a higher set of standards placed on me than my siblings did. They could be flunking out and getting in all kinds of trouble and nobody would say anything. I would bring home a 90 instead of a 100 and would get asked, "Why wasn't it a 100?" I internalized those impossibly high standards. Instead of giving myself any credit for anything, I tend to criticize myself and find all of my flaws and hold myself to impossible standards.

It has been really difficult to stand up and give myself a little bit of credit. Can you think about what is right with you instead of focusing on what is wrong with you? 

[nylonsquid]

My reality was questioned and by extension my sanity. I questioned my behavior. Am I controlling like she says? Am I extremely jealous? Am I not allowing her to gain friends because she has none? All things that filled me with doubt and questioning my integrity. Lucky for me, I can look at the texts I captured from her phone on how she and a "friend of hers" were having an affair behind my back. During this time I was accused of suffocating her and she felt she couldn't feel free.

Of course, I remember this fact then I look at events without trying to interpret anything. Like, every time she made a new guy friend she ended up sleeping with him and its usually my fault because I'm controlling and a jealous freak that needs therapy. If you can't own up to a simple bad behavior which is cheating when you're in a committed relationship that has already been tested with pushing boundaries (cheating) before then hey... how am I being abusive?

What I'm trying to say is stick to facts and don't let anyone try to manipulate events into warped perceptions. Keep your integrity and sanity and hold your ground. You're not the abusive one.