How to know if behavior is abusive or not?

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Many times on this board I see where people say something about their pwBPD's behavior and the people who reply to the topic say the behavior is abusive, but then other times I read where someone on here describes their own behavior and it's similar to the pwBPD's (for example, calling them out on their behavior or telling the pwBPD that they're being hurtful) and the people reply and say the non-BPD person is justified and was just upset. I'm having a very hard time understanding whether my ex was abusive or if I was the abusive one. This drives me to punish myself because I feel like if I say I'm abusive, then I'm abusive, and if I say I'm not abusive, then I'm just in denial and I'm abusive anyway. If I told my ex he was hurting me that means I'm being abusive? People here have said that when their BPD partner says they're hurt, that means the BPD person is being abusive. I don't know what to think.

[thefinalrose]

Many times on this board I see where people say something about their pwBPD's behavior and the people who reply to the topic say the behavior is abusive, but then other times I read where someone on here describes their own behavior and it's similar to the pwBPD's (for example, calling them out on their behavior or telling the pwBPD that they're being hurtful) and the people reply and say the non-BPD person is justified and was just upset. I'm having a very hard time understanding whether my ex was abusive or if I was the abusive one. This drives me to punish myself because I feel like if I say I'm abusive, then I'm abusive, and if I say I'm not abusive, then I'm just in denial and I'm abusive anyway. If I told my ex he was hurting me that means I'm being abusive? People here have said that when their BPD partner says they're hurt, that means the BPD person is being abusive. I don't know what to think.

[julie frances lloyd]

I sometimes think that it is just a case of having different values. A neighbour once told me that he didn't think my babies would go to heaven if I didn't get them Christianed. I was offended and when I saw him walking his dog would try avoid him. I believe in freedom of religion and felt judged. Someone else would be fine with that maybe. I didn't feel super comfortable with him after that but tried to be cordial.

[Fie]

Hello Thefinalrose  

I think I know what you mean.
I had something similar I struggled with while still with my BPD partner : is he a jerk ? Or does he only behave like a jerk ? Him being a jerk would be a reason to leave him, him 'only' behaving like a jerk would make me have hope for the future, maybe eventually he would stop the behavior.

Now I think it didn't matter. If someone behaves like a jerk long enough, they become a jerk.

Maybe the question whether your ex was abusive does not really matter. Maybe you were raised in a toxic family with abusive family members, which makes that you might not (yet) be able to define abuse. (It was like that for me)
So maybe you should rephrase your question as : did his behavior violate my boundaries ?
Of course for that you have to be aware of what your own boundaries are ... .I think that at the time I was still in that BPD relationship, I did not have real boundaries. If I had, I would have left much sooner.

Does that make sense to you ?

[thefinalrose]

I'm not sure... .it's more like, I felt like he was jerking me around and there were times he would physically push me and at time be emotionally manipulative and controlling I think, and say hurtful things, so I would snap at him and say I can't trust him and that he was a liar. Does that mean I'm abusive because I said those things? What if he wasn't doing anything wrong and I'm the abusive borderline one? What if he was only pushing me around and saying those things because he was reacting to my abusive behavior?

[julie frances lloyd]

It sounds confusing. I feel confused listening.

[thefinalrose]

I'm sorry.

[littlehorse]

I know exactly what you mean finalrose and I often have the same confusing thoughts. Was she abusive or was I? I think life is rarely black and white and we all have some BP traits that come out at times of stress. One thing I'm sure of though is that pushing you around and saying hurtful things is not OK... .it is hurtful and you are completely justified in telling him it hurts you. Saying how you feel cannot be abusive, it is communicating to the other how you feel and how their behaviour affects you. Sounds like you both need to do that with each other and listen to each other then ask gently for what you need from the other.

I don't think it's a good idea to use labels. e.g. 'you're a BP', 'you're abusive'. "You" statements are generally not received well because they sound accusing. Instead use "I" statements, "When you do/say xx I feel xy"

Have you ever read books on ACT, Acceptance and Commitment Therapy? I find it helpful.

[sweet tooth]

I think this is a good rule of thumb:
"If you have to ask if a behavior is abusive it probably is."

Think of a time somebody did something in the heat of the moment. They might yell, say something they don't mean. Then they'll probably cool off and apologize. Here are the differences with the abuser:
-Inconsistency. They'll promise to change but never do.
-Severity. Yelling might turn into put downs.
-Frequency. How often does this behavior occur?
-No remorse. An abuser only cares about their self.

[julie frances lloyd]

That's ok. It is ok to feel confused and sit with it sometimes.

[patientandclear]

Rose--you wrote a lengthy description of what happened between the two of you. It doesn't sound like you were abusive. He was physically aggressive with you in odd ways in the early days of your relationship. He told you he didn't consider you a candidate for a committed relationship despite your closeness because of your sexual orientation (if I recall correctly). Later, his moods swung wildly, he was unreliable, and he acted like you were nuts or annoying when you tried to reciprocate his tender feelings.

I'm not sure any of that has to be called abusive, for us to acknowledge how hurtful it is. It sounds like you went out of your way NOT to react as most would to such behavior. You kept being warm toward and open toward him. You were largely non-judgmental and merely acted as though he should be taken at his word--which it sounds like doesn't work for him. Anyway, your actions don't seem remotely abusive.

I like you have scrutinized my own actions up one side and down the other. Sometimes it helps me to return to certain exchanges where I know in my bone marrow that I was as generous, non-judgmental and kind as it is possible to be, and he absolutely lost it--was very angry, felt I'd dealt with him without being transparent about my agenda, felt I wanted to vanquish him ... .Nothing could be further from how I am, how I feel about him, and now I acted in that particular story. He was reacting to experiences with other people long ago. He felt abused ... .But I did not abuse him.

Saying what you need, and what hurts you, and what your boundaries are, and how you are reacting to something that occurs between you, is not abuse, even if it makes him feel bad.

[julie frances lloyd]

You seem quite gentle. You don't strike me as an abuser.

[Fie]

If there is one thing BPD can do to a non, it is questioning yourself.

I remember questioning my own sanity at times.
Either he gaslighted me, either he did not even have to : his behavior was so erratic but he seemed to think it was completely normal, that I started to ask myself if I was the problem - not him.

Do you think this can be happening to you, too ?

[Duped 1]

I struggle with this as well. I think we were both abusive at times. For the first 6 months or so of the relationship I would say things like: don't talk to me that way, people don't talk to each other that way, my worst enemy wouldn't say the things you say to me when you're mad, we are a team, don't fight to win and destroy, etc. As time went on my resentment built and I lost my patience as no one had EVER talked to me or treated me the way she did. She would say I was too sensitive or that everyone gets hollered at now and then and to take it like a man. She would be nasty and threaten to break up almost every time we fought and yet would also often pressure me to get a ring and marry her. Eventually I starting fighting back with anger. My intent was to get her to own her behavior and at least apologize if she slipped. She would rarely do it. I would then say things like you are: selfish, mean, disrespectful, rude, negative, overly critical, judgemental, etc. Was I being abusive? I know clearly we both were when the fights spiraled out of control and she would say something so incredible mean or degrading and I would fight back. I remember saying: "I'm starting to fight mean like you now".

My intent was for her to own her behavior so we could move forward as there was no chance of that happening with her behaving like she was and even though she could say extremely nasty things to me, I couldn't describe her behavior as disrespectful, rude, etc without her crying. Her family would see this as much of it was over text as I was working and they all think I'm the abusive one now as she would never tell both sides of the story and was always the victim.

I still stuggle with understanding if I was abusive or not in many of these exchanges.

[littlehorse]

I can relate to what you say, Duped. It's awful when the person you love says mean things to you. And we all do that sometimes but when it becomes regular or more than occasionally, that's when it does real damage to the trust between us.

I think the thing is not to fight back but to reflect what the other person is saying, that way you cannot be accused of being the abusive one but you are just setting boundaries and telling that person what is OK and not OK and how their behaviour affects you.

[Duped 1]

I can relate to what you say, Duped. It's awful when the person you love says mean things to you. And we all do that sometimes but when it becomes regular or more than occasionally, that's when it does real damage to the trust between us.

I think the thing is not to fight back but to reflect what the other person is saying, that way you cannot be accused of being the abusive one but you are just setting boundaries and telling that person what is OK and not OK and how their behaviour affects you.

While I understand now that I shouldn't have fought back, at the time I didn't realize what I was dealing with and just could not comprehend how she could be so sweet one minute and so incredibly nasty the next. I was walking on eggshells waiting for the next insult, criticism, outburst, ripping on my kids, etc. In the long term there is no way I could have tolerated her but I wish it wouldn't have ended in such a destructive manner. I know she could care less as she went right on to the next guy. I am incredibly sad.

[Tobiasfunke]

While I don't feel I was abusive. She may have perceived me that way. I am a codependent enabler. I feel like I did everything to keep the peace. But in her mind who knows?  What I am pretty sure about (99.9%) none of our ex's are on a website asking if they think they were abusive. They either know they were or are in complete denial believing they were justified.  Most the time I think that's how these relationships work. Both parties chasing happiness. We nons jumping through fire hoops  while our exs resenting our efforts as they will never know happiness with us due to their illness.

If you are on here asking these questions rose I highly doubt you were abusive one in your relationship.

[Pretty Woman]

I think abuse is anything that beats another person down, whether emotionally or physically.  Manipulation is a form of abuse. Telling someone you love them and moments calling them a huge mistake, you wish they were dead, they are garbage.

Abuse.

It comes in many shapes and sizes. There isn't just a one size fits all.

[fromheeltoheal]

Hi thefinalrose-

I'm having a very hard time understanding whether my ex was abusive or if I was the abusive one. This drives me to punish myself because I feel like if I say I'm abusive, then I'm abusive, and if I say I'm not abusive, then I'm just in denial and I'm abusive anyway. If I told my ex he was hurting me that means I'm being abusive?

Like others have said, it's common to question ourselves when we're in a relationship with someone with a personality disorder because if we're getting projected upon and blamed for everything, despite our best efforts, we can question our abilities, question reality, question our own sanity.  A big part of detachment is becoming centered and grounded again, which feels great when we get back there, since we can see the contrast.

Anyway, abuse is not respecting boundaries.  If your ex or anyone else does something that hurts you, and you tell them they're hurting you, and you ask them not to do it again, you are setting a boundary.  Setting boundaries is not abuse, it's self-protection and a demand to be treated with respect, which you have every right to do.  If someone still busts that boundary then you have a choice to accept the abuse or remove them from you life, which would not be abusive either. 

[jhkbuzz]

Hi thefinalrose-

Like others have said, it's common to question ourselves when we're in a relationship with someone with a personality disorder because if we're getting projected upon and blamed for everything, despite our best efforts, we can question our abilities, question reality, question our own sanity.  A big part of detachment is becoming centered and grounded again, which feels great when we get back there, since we can see the contrast.

Anyway, abuse is not respecting boundaries.  If your ex or anyone else does something that hurts you, and you tell them they're hurting you, and you ask them not to do it again, you are setting a boundary.  Setting boundaries is not abuse, it's self-protection and a demand to be treated with respect, which you have every right to do.  If someone still busts that boundary then you have a choice to accept the abuse or remove them from you life, which would not be abusive either.  

And I think where that ^ self-check becomes muddy is when our ex's would suggest that WE were abusive; that we were being hurtful or difficult or overbearing or... .or... .or. Were we? Am I? Am I hurting this person that I love and I can't even SEE it? Have I crossed some sort of boundary that I can't recognize?

One major point of contention between my ex and I developed when we were raising her daughter together. My ex was on the dissociative spectrum and had different "parts of self" (her therapist coined the term). One part we called "little M" - she had the affect and reasoning skills of a 5 year old.

It was very difficult to parent with her when she was in this state. And she was in this state a LOT after we moved in together. It didn't help that I couldn't figure out what was going on with her. (She got into therapy in the last year of our r/s). Over time, I became the "boundary setter" for her daughter, because their r/s would have been "flipped" otherwise - her daughter was the stronger, smarter member of the pair who would have constantly gotten her way.

It was when I was the "parent" and "boundary-setter" that my ex told me I was overly controlling or dominating . Was I? Maybe? I am assertive and had a two-parent upbringing in which the boundaries and expectations were made very clear to me.

So was I the abusive one? Did our parenting disagreements (which made us both very unhappy) give her license to start lying and cheating with a variety of people?

It took me a LONG time to sort it all out. Understanding that she had serious mental health struggles was the first step. Understanding that I AM a dominant person who needs to self-check at times - but who didn't deserve her emotionally abusive behavior in any way, shape or form was another step. Her infidelity was the boundary busting behavior that I couldn't live with - her behavior was destroying the foundation of our committed r/s. I engaged in no such behavior.

It is common to be confused in the aftermath of these r/s's. Getting into therapy gave me more perspective. The passage of time has helped as well.

[thefinalrose]

Thanks guys. As far as boundaries, I'm not really sure what to make of that. He accused me of overstepping boundaries all the time by talking to him when I was upset, which he asked me repeatedly to do. Then very suddenly it became a problem, and he told me to stop, and I did. Later he accused me of not stopping and I also realized that not talking to him about "those topics" also meant I wasn't allowed to be upset with his behavior, wasn't allowed to express any feelings at all including affection, and wasn't allowed to make honest mistakes. Meanwhile, he said he never overstepped any of my boundaries, even though he used to push me around, touch/kiss/sleep with me without even talking to me about it or asking if I wanted to first and then refusing to have a committed relationship with me, and kept asking me questions about the very same things he later told me to shut up about, even though I told him no several times and sharing those things made me uncomfortable, which he later used as a weapon against me. He then wrote an alternate version of what had happened in the relationship in order to maintain his innocence, and when I told him I didn't remember he accused me of using that as an excuse and that I really did remember. Well of course I didn't remember events that never happened... .

He was physically aggressive with you in odd ways in the early days of your relationship. He told you he didn't consider you a candidate for a committed relationship despite your closeness because of your sexual orientation (if I recall correctly). Later, his moods swung wildly, he was unreliable, and he acted like you were nuts or annoying when you tried to reciprocate his tender feelings.

That's correct. I have no idea what he wanted from or with me. I don't understand why he'd tell me he loves me and then get all angry and tell me I'm bothering him when I tried to reciprocate. I feel very much deceived.

But what of all the times his behavior would piss me off and I'd yell at him, and then apologize and say I wouldn't do it again, and then yell at him again the next time he behaved that way? Didn't someone here say that if you keep doing a behavior after saying you would stop that you're being abusive?

At the time I wasn't even sure why I was blowing up at him, except his behavior was causing me to feel horrible about myself, after a while I felt so worthless and insignificant... .

I'm not really sure if I should continue reading things on here though, because it's very triggering for me. I still don't know what is true and I'm not sure I ever will. I still believe it's all my fault no matter how I look at it.

[julie frances lloyd]

hi thefinalrose,
I'm also not sure what is real/true.
Here is some support non the less 

[fromheeltoheal]

Hi finalrose-

A healthy relationship is one that includes mutual trust and mutual respect.  If you were upset, you were upset, and a healthy partner wouldn't invalidate those feelings, respect your boundaries, and work towards resolution, which can make the relationship stronger.

With borderlines however, a pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships is a trait of the disorder, with extreme idealization followed by devaluation, chaos, and inconsistency being hallmarks.  It is very difficult to stay grounded when we're in that kind of relationship, and it's common to blame ourselves, which comes out of a desire to make things right and make it work in the face of uncertainty, confusion and emotional chaos.

It's actually good that you're being triggered here, this is a safe place, we all want what's best for each other, and there's a wealth of information here.  Being triggered means you're looking at things maybe for the first time, which is necessary to grieve the relationship, process the emotions, heal and detach.  You can go at any pace that feels right, but we've all got bright futures ahead of us, just a matter of feeling all the emotions all the way through, the only way out if through.  Take care of you!

[julie frances lloyd]

 I've been thinking about life and it reminded me of some quotes in a movie:
Death is always on the way, but the fact that you don't know when it will arrive seems to take away from the finiteness of life. It's that terrible precision that we hate so much. But because we don't know, we get to think of life as an inexhaustible well. Yet everything happens a certain number of times, and a very small number, really. How many more times will you remember a certain afternoon of your childhood, some afternoon that's so deeply a part of your being that you can't even conceive of your life without it? Perhaps four or five times more. Perhaps not even. How many more times will you watch the full moon rise? Perhaps twenty. And yet it all seems limitless.
Paul Bowles, The Sheltering Sky

[vortex of confusion]

A healthy relationship is one that includes mutual trust and mutual respect. 

THIS!

I spent a lot of time trying to figure out if the ex was the abusive one or if I was the abusive one. At the end of the day, I had to realize that we had both behaved rather poorly. I was not operating from a place of mutual trust or respect. I did not trust him for one second because he had lied to me so many times. I did not trust him for one second because he was unpredictable. He might get upset over something small and insignificant yet shrug off something that most people would get really upset about. I did not respect him for a second. Because of his childish behavior, I saw him as a petulant child and treated him as such. That had to be difficult for him.

I could not trust him with my feelings. I could not trust him to have any kind of compassion for me or my experiences. He is a very self-centered person. In hindsight, I can now see how he would put me off and put me off and put me off until I snapped. I don't know of any rational person that would have been able to NOT react when put off and dismissed like that. And then, that really gave him ammunition to say, "See, look, my wife is the problem!" And that made things ten times more confusing for me because then I tried NOT to react because I didn't want to be the crazy wife. I analyzed everything that I did to make sure that I was not being abusive. I talked to friends, etc. and I was told that some of my behaviors did sound a bit BPDish/messed up.

One of the things that has helped me quite a bit is to assess situations by asking myself, "Would a normal person react to this?" I had pretty much shut down and tried not react to anything so when I started allowing myself to feel stuff and open up, it was rather messy. I am sorry, but I don't know too many women that would be okay with finding out that a spouse was doing things like professing his love for you one day while going out and answering ads and seeking somebody else the next day. Not only was he doing it, but he was alternating between lying about it and being brutally honest about it and making sure that I knew that I didn't float his boat any more. I got to hear why some other woman inspired him or tripped his trigger or whatever crap it was he was trying to feed me. I was in a double bind. If I got upset because he was being brutally honest, then that would give him an excuse to lie about it. It was a trap that I couldn't escape.

I was so busy trying not to react and trying to be perfect and fair that I had shut down. I was so afraid that anything I said would be taken as me being crazy/demanding/abusive/(fill in blank with negative adjective to get me to dismiss myself and question myself rather than seeing reality). The more I tried not to react and be okay with whatever, the more I ended up reacting in unhealthy ways.

Now, I look back on things and find myself thinking,
"Why didn't I react to that?"
"Why was okay with being treated like that?"
"What are my values? If I am with somebody and I am behaving in ways that I find troublesome, why the heck am I still with this person?"

[julie frances lloyd]

Sorry, I think I went on a bit of a tangent there 
I have a vivid fantasy life and quotes from literature/ poetry tend to colour my experience of reality.

[julie frances lloyd]

OK, last one then back to regular, scheduled programming:
(Here is one for the wolfy folks out there.)
He was mastered by the sheer surging of life, the tidal wave of being, the perfect joy of each separate muscle, joint, and sinew in that it was everything that was not death, that it was aglow and rampant, expressing itself in movement, flying exultantly under the stars.
Jack London, The Call of the Wild

[thefinalrose]

I was so busy trying not to react and trying to be perfect and fair that I had shut down. I was so afraid that anything I said would be taken as me being crazy/demanding/abusive/(fill in blank with negative adjective to get me to dismiss myself and question myself rather than seeing reality).

This is exactly what happened to me toward the end. It's like everything I said or did was wrong. I couldn't express any feelings for fear of upsetting him. I became very robotic and emotionless, ignoring my own feelings and needs and focusing on fixing whatever I was supposedly doing wrong, but the more I tried to fix it, the more he got angry with me and pushed me away. Meanwhile, his behavior grew more and more unacceptable to the point where my frustration with him became too much for me to contain. It really was a complete double bind.

hi thefinalrose,
I'm also not sure what is real/true.
Here is some support non the less 

Thank you for reading, at least. And thank you for the quotes. I love quotes from literature and film, too, sometimes they are helpful. 

[julie frances lloyd]

(I didn't want to fall into a counselor role.)

[thefinalrose]

(I didn't want to fall into a counselor role.)

Don't worry, you're not! At least I don't think you are.

[valet]

The abuse is mutual. What we often fail to realize is that we hurt our partners just as much as they hurt us.

What separates us is that we have a less rigid opportunity to change. If you are here, you are demanding change for yourself. Maybe our pwBPD are doing the same for themselves, but it is not up for us to decide.