Tired of fighting

[CrazyChuck]

My wife started the day getting in a fight with the kids. And then she got in a fight with the waitress. And then she got in a fight with her parents. I unsuccessfully used this as an opportunity to suggest she go to a Therapist for her anger. I tried to validate and apologize for the suggestion, but that inflamed the situation. And then I blew up causing WWIII. I'm so tired of fighting. Do people with BPD like to fight? She seems to fight with a lot of people. She can fight with a customer service rep for hours. I think it is a form of control.   

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[Lockjaw]

I believe they do. My GF is not conflict avoidant, and she is pretty blunt too. So... .the trap I get in is she says something, and I think its got some hidden message, when really it doesn't. She wouldn't hide a message, she would just say it.

But she does like to argue. I have told her she does. And they are masters at taking any situation, and justifying what they do. Even if you do the same thing and they fuss at you, they can do it and its ok.

Mine usually tries to justify something first. If I have her stone cold busted, and I won't let her off the hook, then she will change to what I call self riteous indignation. She will look at me, and get exasperated and say something along the lines of "are you F'n kidding me"? That means she is trying to find a way to make an excuse that has more weight to it than a standard one.

What I did find, and its really hard to remember to do it, is to just keep asking her what are you really upset about?

Sometimes I have to walk away. Sometimes I have to just give it back and wear her down, which I really hate, because it is very draining for me, especially emotionally. It will make me end up sleeping for a long time. So usually if we have a big blow up, I won't sleep well for a couple nights, and then I will sleep for 12 hours or more.

[livednlearned]

She fights most likely because she has no other coping skills.

BPD is like a belief system based on how she sees herself (not worthy, inadequate, horrible) and how she believes others see her (not worthy, inadequate, horrible).

It's been described like having an emotional third degree burn.

She fights because she cannot trust anyone, people always reject or abandon her.

The fighting is exhausting. I can't imagine she likes it.

[once removed]

I tried to validate and apologize for the suggestion, but that inflamed the situation. And then I blew up causing WWIII. I'm so tired of fighting.

can you elaborate here? how was the situation inflamed? it takes two to fight. she may pick fights, but if youre not a willing participant you might find yourself less of a target. 

[CrazyChuck]

can you elaborate here? how was the situation inflamed? it takes two to fight. she may pick fights, but if youre not a willing participant you might find yourself less of a target. 

I said to her.

Me. I understand that you feel my suggesting you go to a therapist is insulting. That was not my intention. I'm sorry.
Her. Just stop talking you are not making anything better. You do not value my feelings. You only want to hear yourself talk. You do this all the time. You make everything about you. You are so selfish.
Me. Nothing about this is about me. I do value your feelings. I love you very much.
Her. (yelling)You just can't shut up. You have ruined another day. Just leave me the f*** alone. You selfish ass. You are so narcissistic. You just want to shove you opinions down my throat like you always do. It's all about you. You just said I am always mad at you. That I stress you out. If you want to leave, get the f*** out. 
Me. I didn't say any of that.
Her. You are so f****** crazy that you don't even remember what you said 5 minutes ago. You are crazy. You need to go back to your therapist. He did wonders for you obviously.
Me. (yelling)How the f*** am I being selfish? This is about you. You know what, f*** you (And I flip her off with both hands).
Her. There he is. There is crazy Chuck. Here come all the insults and name calling.
Me. (very calm)I am very sorry I yelled at you, I should never had said f-you. I have never called you any names. I'm very sorry.
Her. (screaming)Leave. me. the. f***. alone! Leave. me. the. f***. alone! Leave. me. the. f***. alone! (slams bathroom door and locks it)(starts crying loudly)
Me (outside bathroom door) Please honey I'm sorry
her. (screaming)I told you to leave me alone. I'm leaving (opens door and starts packing a bag)
Me. Look I'll leave. (I grab keys and go to Walmart and walk around for a few hours)

The last 10 days and up until I suggested she go to a therapist for her anger have been fantastic. She has been very affectionate and loving.

[livednlearned]

It looks like you begin to JADE (justify, argue, defend, explain) when you say, "That was not my intention."

I used to say this to my son's father all the time, and it was like stepping on the gas pedal.

Sometimes it is best to observe her feeling and just say it. "You are hurt."

And let her be hurt -- it's only partly about the therapy. Underneath, it's more like your observations sync up with the low opinion she has of herself, that something is wrong with her. She can't tolerate that thought or emotion, so she instead flares back at you so you will hurt like she hurts.

If you recognize her feelings that she is hurt, it allows some small amount of release. That yes, she is hurt, and it's ok to feel hurt.

I finally learned it was ok to let the emotions vent a bit, and if I needed to set a record straight, I waited.

And lost "It was not my intention... ." from my tool kit. It was like a trigger word for him.

[Lockjaw]

What happens if you ask her what she is really upset about?

That has worked for me once or twice. I just keep asking in a calm voice, baby, what are you really upset about? She would rant about something, and I just kept asking until she ranted herself out and said what was really bothering her.

I asked 4 or 5 times before she finally said.

[CrazyChuck]

What happens if you ask her what she is really upset about?

Never works for me. I say that almost every time. And she says I am upset that you do not respect my feelings. That you do not care about my feelings. And I respond I do care about your feelings. Which she responds There you go again with the I, you are trying to make this about you. Which I say this is not about me. This is about your feelings, and how I do respect your feelings. And the circle just goes around and around until I stop talking.

[CrazyChuck]

A few nights ago my wife just kept giving me dirty looks. After about the third time I asked if she was mad at me. She exploded that she hates when I ask her if she is mad. That me asking her if she is mad is the quickest way to piss her off. That now she is mad and that I mad her mad. I said What did I do in the beginning to make you mad? She responded Why does everything have to do with you. Why can't I just be upset without you making it about you? I said You were giving me dirty looks. Which she replied It is all in your head. You started all this. You did this.

[once removed]

And she says I am upset that you do not respect my feelings. That you do not care about my feelings. And I respond I do care about your feelings. Which she responds There you go again

this is also JADE territory and is probably perceived as invalidating. feelings may = facts, so "i do care about your feelings" is akin to saying "no, the sky isnt really blue, you are wrong."

not intuitive, i know. think about it this way: lets say you have low self esteem and firmly believe you are unattractive. someone comes along and starts telling you how attractive you are. chances are youre not going to believe them. its going to feel wrong.

theres a great deal of that going on in the argument you detailed for us. arguing, communicating that her feelings are wrong, seems to be just setting her off worse.