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Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse... Have you considered that being critical, judgmental, or invalidating toward the other parent, no matter what she or he just did will only make matters worse? Someone has to be do something. This means finding the motivation to stop making things worse, learning how to interrupt your own negative responses, body language, facial expressions, voice tone, and learning how to inhibit your urges to do things that you later realize are contributing to the tensions.
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PFCI
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« on: March 15, 2017, 08:51:06 PM »

So, last Saturday, my youngest son (7) fell off his bike in the park, and smashed his elbow to bits.  Ended up having surgery at 10 pm that night, and 2 pins inserted. 9 times out of 10, he'd get up with just bruises.  Freak accident.   

Obviously, seeing as I was there with both sons, I'm being completely blamed for this.  FOG is being laid down thick every day and night.  She's got herself a new stick  to beat me with, and she's gonna use it!  Every day has been pretty bad. For my part, I literally respond with Yes, no, minimal answers as she rages away.  I keep my distance as much as possible.  She is baffled, I think, by my lack of reaction.  She's trying to press every button she can... .but this is something she'll use against me for years.  It's depressing.

What kind of woman would use her youngest sons terrible injury as a weapon? It's really changed things for me.  Recently, things were improving, and I thought maybe there was hope, but now... .I can't.

Also, my oldest son is copying exactly my wife's behavior towards me.  Maybe he's also BPD?  I have my suspicions.  Or it's just learned behavior?   

Last night, he even ran to his mum to tell her something I said to him that he knew would get me in trouble.  He's smart, maybe he knows if I'm in trouble he'll generally be OK?  I'm pretty sad about his behavior.  Not sure what to do about that. 

Any advice?
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« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2017, 10:03:34 PM »

She probably genuinely believes that you were careless and that resulted in the injury to your son.  Is it any surprise that this really upsets her?  I think all mothers would have that kind of reaction if they thought the first statement was true.  As for your response, my first inclination would be to discuss the situation and the actions that you took, then discuss how she felt you should have handled the situation differently.  You can then agree or disagree.

As for your other son, I would recommend 2 things.  One, discuss with your wife that the son is trying to play the 2 of you against each other.  Two, discuss what kind of message the two of you should present to him when he tries this.

I know that you are thinking in your head that the above approaches will never work.  My suggestion is to do it anyway.  Model how things should be, and then let her decide if she will participate.
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« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2017, 11:04:51 PM »

She probably genuinely believes that you were careless and that resulted in the injury to your son.  Is it any surprise that this really upsets her?  I think all mothers would have that kind of reaction if they thought the first statement was true.  As for your response, my first inclination would be to discuss the situation and the actions that you took, then discuss how she felt you should have handled the situation differently.  You can then agree or disagree.

As for your other son, I would recommend 2 things.  One, discuss with your wife that the son is trying to play the 2 of you against each other.  Two, discuss what kind of message the two of you should present to him when he tries this.

I know that you are thinking in your head that the above approaches will never work.  My suggestion is to do it anyway.  Model how things should be, and then let her decide if she will participate.

Actually, just after it, she was quite reasonable, accepting it wasn't my fault and there was nothing I could have done, but now she basically says I have responsibility for making her life more difficult. Not our son's, her's. I can tell she's saying these things because she wants to hurt me, get a reaction, not because she really believes it. 

I've tried your other discussions.  Success rate, zero percent.
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« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2017, 05:40:14 AM »


First... .    about your son's injury... .and the BPD crazy that went with it.  Very frustrating.  I've been there.

Second... .don't "measure success" from her reactions.  That still "hands your life to a disordered person"... .

Measure success with your knowledge and wisdom of what YOU should do.  Yes... .obviously you pay attention to what she does so you can properly adjust your tools and have a healthy response to what she actually says.

Listen... .your wife is emotionally "disabled".  Having a hurt child is very emotional.  Did you really expect her to have a "good" reaction?

Not really much you can do for her.

There is stuff you can do for yourself and your son... .it appears you did that.

   

More later.

FF
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« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2017, 06:47:41 AM »

I am sorry about your son's injury- I hope he feels better soon.

As to your older son's behavior, there are several considerations. One is that children do learn from observing the behavior of their parents. However, older children do learn what is acceptable behavior and what is not. The confusing part is that they know it isn't right to behave that way- then see a parent do that. Parents are supposed to be role models and this is inconsistent.

The emotional climate of the relationship affects the kids, and stressed out kids can act out.

Most kids crave attention from parents- if your son learns that he gets attention from mom by triangulating with you- he will do it. He will also possibly try to do this with you as well. The Karpman triangle can be a way family members relate.

People with BPD are emotionally immature. So are kids and teens. Hormonal pre-teens and teens can have some BPD behavior-as a result of the changes they are going through. The difference is that this is normal for teens, but not adults.

If the behaviors persist, he may need counseling. There is a possibility that another family member could have BPD, but there are a lot of other reasons for his behavior too.
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« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2017, 09:00:04 AM »

I am sorry about your son's injury- I hope he feels better soon.

As to your older son's behavior, there are several considerations. One is that children do learn from observing the behavior of their parents. However, older children do learn what is acceptable behavior and what is not. The confusing part is that they know it isn't right to behave that way- then see a parent do that. Parents are supposed to be role models and this is inconsistent.

The emotional climate of the relationship affects the kids, and stressed out kids can act out.

Most kids crave attention from parents- if your son learns that he gets attention from mom by triangulating with you- he will do it. He will also possibly try to do this with you as well. The Karpman triangle can be a way family members relate.

People with BPD are emotionally immature. So are kids and teens. Hormonal pre-teens and teens can have some BPD behavior-as a result of the changes they are going through. The difference is that this is normal for teens, but not adults.

If the behaviors persist, he may need counseling. There is a possibility that another family member could have BPD, but there are a lot of other reasons for his behavior too.

I know he craves his mother's attention. She's raised them that way, whilst painting me black. She's made sure they will always choose her. 

Maybe its best if I leave? Best for the kids, too.
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« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2017, 09:51:54 AM »

What's best for the kids is as variable as should someone leave. Probably the answer for both is- what is best for you is best for the kids- as your ability to be a parent depends on your well being.

Whether you stay or leave, there won't be complete separation. With kids, the two of you will be in each other's lives regardless. So working on your relationship skills and minimizing the dysfunction between the two of you will help regardless of your choice and also be good for the kids.

It also depends on your choices if you leave. Will you live nearby? Will you jump into another relationship that has issues? ( because if we do this before processing our own part we are likely to recreate similar issues with someone else). If the goal is to create a sane safe space for yourself and the kids, introducing another person to that mix may not be good for them in the long run.

Whatever you decide- working on you- your relationship skills, whatever issues you are dealing with is going to be good for everyone involved.

Your wife may be teaching the kids some dysfunction. I don't know how to undo that at the moment. However, kids do grow up and can work on these things later. One thing that helped me were other role models. My father's FOO, my friends' parents were influential adults for me. Do you know other women who could role model mothering skills to your kids? Could be sitters, relatives, friends.

Economics is another factor. My mother wasn't interested in child care, but although we were not wealthy, my father was able to provide for babysitters- even if mom didn't have a job. So someone took care of us if she wanted time to herself. This took some stress off her- so she was more stable when someone was there- and also gave us a caring caretaker. However, this may be an expense that some families can't make.

I don't know the road not taken by my parents. My father and mother stayed together. I think there would have been pros and cons to either decision. The right one is the one he chose with his circumstances, I guess.

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« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2017, 01:02:22 PM »


It's understandable to be shocked that you would be blamed for an injury to a child... .when in fact you were blameless... .and actually part of caring for the child. 

         

Like so many things about BPD... .it will make you bonkers.

Let me tell you a quick story... hopefully it will help you see this wasn't your wife talking... .it was the disorder taking over... .

Many years ago there was a chance that my daughter had a really bad infection... .we thought it was meningitis.  A big decision was whether or not to spinal tap to figure it out for sure.

We had lots of animals on our farm and my daughter was the primary caregiver.  There was an outside chance that the infection was NOT meningitis but was something passed through an animal. 

Our family is blessed to have a good friend that is a Veterinarian.  I just got done hearing all this info from the emergency room doctor, I couldn't get in touch with my wife... .and had been told I should make a decision in a few hours about the spinal tap. 

So... .I call the family friend that is a Vet.

Did I mention the vet is female?  (those who know me on the boards see this one coming... .)

Well... .the vet was supportive and gave me great advice.  I used that advice to choose to delay the tap... .and it turned out to be the correct decision.  Fever went down... .the issue slowly resolved... .although the hospital stay lasted a few days.

Well... .that evening I get in touch with my wife... .she rushes to hospital.  On the way over she called the vet... .figured out from vet I had already talked to her...

By the time she got to the hospital she is worried about her daughter AND has been stewing about me "going behind her back"... .to talk to the vet... .AND... .I probably had the hots for the vet ... AND my wife was going to divorce me over this... AND... (fill in whatever else I have left out... .)

This was before I knew about BPD... .before I knew about SWOE... skills... any of that.

Let's just say that night at hospital was horrible... .  I was "trying to get my wife to be reasonable... ."    and my wife was explaining to me my sexual desire for the vet... .while my daughter laid in a hospital bed... .

Ugg... those days sucked... .bad.

I don't want you to let your wife off the hook... .but I do want you to realize that big changes are happening... .positive changes... .and it will likely take months or longer to see "just how much better" your r/s can be.

At some point you can work on your relationship with the kids as well...

Hang in there...

FF
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« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2017, 06:37:56 PM »

Let's just say that night at hospital was horrible... .  I was "trying to get my wife to be reasonable... ."    and my wife was explaining to me my sexual desire for the vet... .while my daughter laid in a hospital bed... .

Ugg... those days sucked... .bad.

I don't want you to let your wife off the hook... .but I do want you to realize that big changes are happening... .positive changes... .and it will likely take months or longer to see "just how much better" your r/s can be.

At some point you can work on your relationship with the kids as well...

Hang in there...

FF

Sorry to hear that happened.  Must have sucked.

Interesting that recently my wife has been semi-accusing me of cheating.  She never did that before.  I assume it's because I'm, using the tools on this site, so she's feeling insecure and looking for a new way to attack me.

Anyway, last night she was raging again, as she has been all week, I'm just listening, not JADEing, when she starts to repeat herself for the 4th time, I start to carry on with my evening chores.  She says it's really rude, so I say that I've listened to her carefully 3 or 4 times, so now I'm going to do the chores.   

Later, she's still complaining, and starts calling me stupid and useless, so I say that I won't stay and listen if she's just going to insult me, and then I go upstairs.  A few minutes later, I come back down, and she says I should live upstairs, so I reply I'll come downstairs when I want. 

Finally, she threatens to change the locks on the house when I'm out.  So I  reply that if she did, I'd change the bank account my pay goes into from our shared account to my account.  She really loses it then, calling her friend to complain about me (in Japanese, although I can understand wheat she's saying). Then, silence for the rest of the night.  Both children witnessed all this.

Honestly, I felt good.  I felt free. I don't have to be afraid of her.  She won't hit me now that I went to the cops (she claims I sold her out... .), she threatened divorce recently, I said OK, she didn't follow through.  She know I can control my own pay.  I feel a bit bad for her, but on the other hand she running out of ways to control and attack me, and she knows it.  I feel bad, it must be hard for her, but I need to take care of myself first. 
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« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2017, 06:47:05 PM »

Both children witnessed all this.

So... .I realize that you can't always control this. 

As much as it is up to you... .don't argue in front of the kids.  Much better to slow things down, send the kids to their room, then resume the discussion with your wife.

Or... .invite your wife to go talk privately.  (note: this is a battle I have been fighting for the past few months.  It has gotten much better because I have been taking away the audience).

What would happen if... ."Kid's... .go to your room.  The adults have things to talk about"

Last thought for now.  If you wrestle with the pigs, you will get dirty

Your wife is a much better pig wrestler than you are... she has done it all her life.  She will win...

So... when she says "I will xyz... "  Never ever say... ."then I will abc... ."

You will have to play around with a healthy response... .

"Hey honey... .can you slow down just a bit so I understand you.  What is it you are proposing?" (put it back on her and listen)

"What is it you want me to understand here?"

"Ohh my... .I'll have to think about that... "

Do you understand the analogy about pig wrestling?

FF
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« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2017, 06:48:48 PM »


Interesting that recently my wife has been semi-accusing me of cheating.  

Give me some he said she said on this.  I think this is an area you can have victory... .and heal your r/s some. 

There are ways to "properly" reassure her... .

FF
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« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2017, 06:53:54 PM »

Give me some he said she said on this.  I think this is an area you can have victory... .and heal your r/s some. 

There are ways to "properly" reassure her... .

FF

I was away on business in Nagasaki.  I feel asleep in the hotel and missed her phone call.  For some reason, when I woke up, no notification of a missed call, so I didn't call back.

So, because I didn't pick up, I must be cheating.  I assured her I wasn't.  I didn't bother to explain the ins and outs of why I didn't answer the phone, though, as it would probably make things worse.  Sleeping is also a crime in her eyes... .
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« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2017, 06:57:02 PM »

So... .I realize that you can't always control this. 

As much as it is up to you... .don't argue in front of the kids.  Much better to slow things down, send the kids to their room, then resume the discussion with your wife.

Or... .invite your wife to go talk privately.  (note: this is a battle I have been fighting for the past few months.  It has gotten much better because I have been taking away the audience).

What would happen if... ."Kid's... .go to your room.  The adults have things to talk about"

Last thought for now.  If you wrestle with the pigs, you will get dirty

Your wife is a much better pig wrestler than you are... she has done it all her life.  She will win...

So... when she says "I will xyz... "  Never ever say... ."then I will abc... ."

You will have to play around with a healthy response... .

"Hey honey... .can you slow down just a bit so I understand you.  What is it you are proposing?" (put it back on her and listen)

"What is it you want me to understand here?"

"Ohh my... .I'll have to think about that... "

Do you understand the analogy about pig wrestling?

FF

I know it wasn't the best thing to say, but on the other hand, she probably never thought about that before.  Seems like a kind of power struggle going on now, which is sad.  But I need to stand up for myself. 
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« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2017, 09:36:37 AM »

The challenge here is that you have cheated before based on what you said in old posts.  While the current accusation is false, if she ever asks you a blanket question about cheating (have you ever cheated), you then have to decide if you will lie or suffer the consequences of telling the truth.  I suspect that is your fear in this situation, that false suspicions about infidelity will end up digging up the case where you did.

As for why does she now suspect you, I think it is simple.  You are no longer behaving the way you have in the past.  You aren't pursuing her or seeking any intimacy with her.  One common reason for such a change is infidelity.  It isn't surprising that she is wondering if that is the reason for your change.
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« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2017, 10:11:15 AM »

The challenge here is that you have cheated before based on what you said in old posts.  While the current accusation is false, if she ever asks you a blanket question about cheating (have you ever cheated), you then have to decide if you will lie or suffer the consequences of telling the truth.  I suspect that is your fear in this situation, that false suspicions about infidelity will end up digging up the case where you did.

As for why does she now suspect you, I think it is simple.  You are no longer behaving the way you have in the past.  You aren't pursuing her or seeking any intimacy with her.  One common reason for such a change is infidelity.  It isn't surprising that she is wondering if that is the reason for your change.

I don't have that fear at all.   What happened happened for a reason. But outs, fully behind me now.
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« Reply #15 on: March 18, 2017, 07:39:10 PM »

Sorry to hear that happened.  Must have sucked.

Interesting that recently my wife has been semi-accusing me of cheating.  She never did that before.  I assume it's because I'm, using the tools on this site, so she's feeling insecure and looking for a new way to attack me.

... .

My wife has started doing this A LOT.  And yeah, it's because I started enforcing some boundaries against her: leaving the house and going for a walk when she starts screaming, not apologizing when I haven't done anything wrong, and not letting her railroad me into her insane circular arguments.

I get accused of having an affair multiple times a day now

she did this before, quite a bit actually, but now she says she's convinced since we've been intimate less often lately.  I told her if she wants to have sex, yelling at me, accusing me of infidelity, etc. is not a great form of foreplay for me.  and of course I get blamed for the lack of intimacy for not ignoring the accusations of infidelity and just carrying her upstairs and tossing her on the bed, I guess.
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« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2017, 08:49:27 PM »

My wife has started doing this A LOT.  And yeah, it's because I started enforcing some boundaries against her: leaving the house and going for a walk when she starts screaming, not apologizing when I haven't done anything wrong, and not letting her railroad me into her insane circular arguments.

I get accused of having an affair multiple times a day now

she did this before, quite a bit actually, but now she says she's convinced since we've been intimate less often lately.  I told her if she wants to have sex, yelling at me, accusing me of infidelity, etc. is not a great form of foreplay for me.  and of course I get blamed for the lack of intimacy for not ignoring the accusations of infidelity and just carrying her upstairs and tossing her on the bed, I guess.

I have exactly this situation.  It's since I started enforcing boundaries.

Also, I get the same problem re lack of intimacy.  I don't want to sleep with her due to the way she acts towards me, but if I don't, she becomes angry. 

One piece of advice, blaming her for the lack of intimacy (even though it is completely due to her behavior) won't have any kind of positive outcome for you. Don't JADE, and let her calm down by herself.
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« Reply #17 on: March 21, 2017, 09:04:29 PM »


Instead of "blaming her"... .hand the problem back to her.

"Oh my... .when would you like to have sex? I could go take a quick shower... ."

They can blame all they want... .accuse all they want... .it's not important to convince them that they are wrong.

It is important that we convince them... .by our actions/words... .that we will not "pick up" the gauntlet they are tossing out

Just let it lie there... .

I do sympathize with you guys... .it was REALLY hard to not engage or deal with accusations.  They had gotten to a manageable level... and it just so happened that we were in MC at the time with a female therapist.

I was using tools and all that... .things were improving.

Well... .out of nowhere... .my wife sends me a pornographic picture (nothing extreme)... .saying something about how nice she looked... .  I decided I was going to toss rules out the window and speak my mind.

I told her it was preposterous for her to accuse me of wanting other women... sneak looks... blah blah blah... .and then the person that actually causes porn to be in my account was HER.  I know... .and knew then that I was likely going to "trigger shame"... .didn't really care at the time.

Well... .we go to MC and I bring it up again.  Forced her in MC to "reflect back" to me that I have no interest in "being exposed" to other women... .by her... .or anyone else.  That most of the weird sex stuff in my head (about other women) was put there by her... .expressing her weird theories... .

And that I would not listen to... validate... .or in any way participate in future accusations... .

My wife was white as a ghost... .mortified.  MC was aghast... .I was pissed.

But it was authentic... .

Shockingly... .it seems to have worked.

I'm sure the dysfunction just went somewhere else... .but accusations are pretty much gone.

FF
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