Communication with my husband who has BPD when I can't say right thing

[Koguma]

My husband who is a talented pianist got diagnosed with BPD last year. He has been suffering with PTSD, depression, anxiety, panic episodes for many years but didn't know he had that for a long time. He had a 7 year old of long term relationship with his ex when he was often sucidal/ emotionally abusive mutually which he also projects those issues or reactions from her on to me and ours and distorts my intentions or stories.

We don't live together because he believes he can't handle and function his emotional ups and downs while we are sharing the space. we are fairly close each other. When he feels really bad, he just practices piano for all day long or smokes weed. He quit his work after he got out of the hospital 3 weeks ago and he started painting recently. He spent hours even not sleeping at night while he is aware that he needs to sleep and eats well for his mental health. He is currently participating DBT, taking 7 different kinds of meds, and individual MBT session every week. He is pretty good at following the treatment as he wants to recover so badly.

It has been extremely exhausting and challenging on my end though because I feel like I don't have enough patience to deal with his symptoms such as explosive anger, distorting the reality, and splitting. After he got out of the hospital, he became avoidant and didn't engage with me a lot and I ended up not seeing him for 2 weeks. I planned lots of things with my friends to soothe my emotions and this made probably validated him to be away from me. When eventually we got together and talked, he almost like worshipped this woman who is an also musician and has mental illness. He says things like "She is the only person who understands what I'm going through. I love her, she is like my family". He drove 10 hours to make sure she gets admitted in the hospital when she was sucidal a while ago, and he is excited to record the album with her, and he is planning to visit her for Thanksgiving without discussing with me. Now, I feel sad, lonely and feel like he is not my partner anymore. We don't live together, he wants to spend lots of time just playing, making an art or hanging out with his best friend or talking to this woman, it seems like he is not interested in what I'm doing, how my feelings are.

I expressed my feelings and tried to explain where it came from, what could make it better for our relationship and he got angry. He says things like "You make me feel terrible, I want to kill myself" or "I feel guilty, it's my fault, I'm such a failure, I want to die" or "It's not my fault, Don't make feel shamed". These are the responses when I say " I felt sad when you mention that they are your family and you want to spend time with them on Thanksgiving day". I know I can't blame him. I know I have to say how much I love him and support him and also I know I have to listen to him even though he is just non stop blaming me and not giving me a chance to talk. I couldn't do it. I had to say I was sad. I wanted to be heard but he was just angry. This is not the first time of course. This kind of communication happens every single day over all small issues, big issues, or stresses.
When I didn't say anything back because I had to hold up my frustration, he freaked out that I was silent. When I said something, he started blaming and emotionally threatening me that he is going to kill himself because I'm the cause and by that point, I can't even have a single second to talk.

One day he says I'm the best, one day he says I make him feel terrible. When he hangs up on me, he doesn't remember but when I hang up on him, his rage goes beyond my understanding. When he walks away from me because he is freaking out, he believes that's the best thing for him but when I walk away from him because I'm so upset, I make him feel extremely terrible and wanting to die. When I don't talk or have a blunt face because I'm frustrated, I make him feel bad and terrible. I just don't know how to handle my emotions while I'm supporting him. I want him to hear my feelings and I don't want to be just a caregiver and want to be loved but I don't know how to communicate in a way it doesn't make him feel terrible.

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[Pook075]

Hello Kogmua and welcome.  I'm very sorry you're going through this and it sounds terrible.

A few quick questions: I saw you were married but you don't live together.  Have you ever lived together?  Or is that a plan for the future?

For what your husband is going through, it's common for people with mental illness to feel like only others with mental illness can understand them.  Although these relationships often turn toxic, people with BPD try to be rescuers in the moment for one another by feeding into the drama of whatever's going on.  It feeds into their invalidated way of thinking and can be very destructive.

[alcmene]

I expressed my feelings and tried to explain where it came from, what could make it better for our relationship and he got angry. He says things like "You make me feel terrible, I want to kill myself" or "I feel guilty, it's my fault, I'm such a failure, I want to die" or "It's not my fault, Don't make feel shamed". These are the responses when I say " I felt sad when you mention that they are your family and you want to spend time with them on Thanksgiving day". I know I can't blame him. I know I have to say how much I love him and support him and also I know I have to listen to him even though he is just non stop blaming me and not giving me a chance to talk. I couldn't do it. I had to say I was sad. I wanted to be heard but he was just angry. This is not the first time of course. This kind of communication happens every single day over all small issues, big issues, or stresses.
When I didn't say anything back because I had to hold up my frustration, he freaked out that I was silent. When I said something, he started blaming and emotionally threatening me that he is going to kill himself because I'm the cause and by that point, I can't even have a single second to talk.

One day he says I'm the best, one day he says I make him feel terrible. When he hangs up on me, he doesn't remember but when I hang up on him, his rage goes beyond my understanding. When he walks away from me because he is freaking out, he believes that's the best thing for him but when I walk away from him because I'm so upset, I make him feel extremely terrible and wanting to die. When I don't talk or have a blunt face because I'm frustrated, I make him feel bad and terrible. I just don't know how to handle my emotions while I'm supporting him. I want him to hear my feelings and I don't want to be just a caregiver and want to be loved but I don't know how to communicate in a way it doesn't make him feel terrible.

Wow, I relate to this so much! This is the relationship I've been in for the last 2 years. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. If I try to talk to him, he gets mad at nothing. Absolutely the most trivial things imaginable, he wants to fight over. If I don't talk because I realize it's impossible, he gets mad about that. If I walk away from him because I need to get away from the craziness, he gets mad about that. If I try to just avoid him and wait and hope that he'll calm down, it'll just pick back up wherever it left off. He also turns it around on me, like your husband does to you. It's ALL about HIS feelings. He does something really bad to me, we're not allowed to talk about that. I'm not allowed to call him out on his behavior or talk about how it affects me/us. Because I should be feeling sorry for him. He's the victim, somehow. I've never met anyone so impossible to communicate with. We went to couples counseling to work on our communication issues. The therapist said he rarely sees 2 people who get along as well as we do. We were calm and respectful the whole time. But because I said things that he takes offense to, he split the next morning and abruptly broke up and left without warning. In the most dramatic way imaginable, calling police, the whole 9 yards. He refuses to see that he has BPD and that his behavior is a huge problem.

What kind of meds is your husband on? Are any for his BPD symptoms? Have they helped at all?

[Koguma]

Thank you for giving some insights. Yeah I definitely understand he can relate to those people more. I also observed he was able to hold the space for them because he understands where their emotions are coming from. He is less reactive toward them versus than me.

We had lived together for 3 months not because we planned to be living together but his friend had to stay at his place for a couple of months.We argued/ fought every single day during 3 months of sharing the space because I couldn’t stand his unorganized life style and I had to do more chores than I wanted and he couldn’t take his responsibilities because it was too stressful for him.

We discussed that we may try to live together in a bigger apartment where we can have some privacy from each other but it’s not something that would happen in the near future.

[Koguma]

I feel so relieved to hear that I’m not alone here. There was one time I had to decide to call either 911 or police. I called 911 and it turned out it was a better decision but I hear you. 

 He got admitted into hospital two times so far and he was on different meds first time. (Anti depressants, I don’t know all the names but mainly for his anxiety, PTSD) and they gave him some anti psychotic meds and mood stabilizer after the second admission. So far, I see he is a little more stable. He had crazy psychotic episodes from intense anger and suicidal thoughts. But once he gets to the point where he can’t control, nothing helps but ice water. I hug him saying loving words and make him to put his face into cold iced water. This worked every single time when he has episodes but it doesn’t solve the ongoing communication problem.

I think the meds help him to be stable a little bit ( and smoking weed every 3 hours) in general but managing his emotions has to come from practicing DBT.  Over time, he has been using different strategies to cope his intense feelings and triggers. Blaming me and being a victim is something he started recently after his therapist told him it’s not his fault.

[kells76]

Hi Koguma, and from me along with the others!

Sorry if I missed this info somewhere -- how long have you two been married, and how long were you together before that?

A quick thought about this:

Blaming me and being a victim is something he started recently after his therapist told him it’s not his fault.

How do you know what his therapist told him?

...

Going back to your original question:

One day he says I'm the best, one day he says I make him feel terrible. When he hangs up on me, he doesn't remember but when I hang up on him, his rage goes beyond my understanding. When he walks away from me because he is freaking out, he believes that's the best thing for him but when I walk away from him because I'm so upset, I make him feel extremely terrible and wanting to die. When I don't talk or have a blunt face because I'm frustrated, I make him feel bad and terrible. I just don't know how to handle my emotions while I'm supporting him. I want him to hear my feelings and I don't want to be just a caregiver and want to be loved but I don't know how to communicate in a way it doesn't make him feel terrible.

Persons with BPD (pwBPD) have temperament factors (high emotional sensitivity, high emotional reactivity, long return to emotional baseline) that mean that an intimate relationship with them will likely be an "emotional special needs" relationship. If you were in a relationship with someone who used a wheelchair, that would be a "physical special needs" relationship. Whether you liked it or not, or thought it was fair or not, the reality of the relationship would be that you would be getting stuff from the top shelf in the kitchen much more than your partner -- maybe 100% of the time. You might wish you didn't have to grab the high stuff so much, and wish that that work were split more evenly, and wish that just for once your partner would get that thing off the top of the fridge for you... but due to your partner's inherent limitations, it just isn't going to happen.

It may be helpful to approach thinking about your H's BPD that way (though it is true that many pwBPD who commit to effective treatment can improve). He has significant and impairing emotional limitations. He likely cannot listen to you fully in the ways you desire, and may be impaired in his ability to love you in exactly the way you crave. That doesn't mean you can't have a "good enough" relationship with him -- there are members here who, through personal tools like radical acceptance and communication approaches like stopping being invalidating have been able to stay together. It's not going to be magical and won't meet all your needs, but people stay committed for many reasons, and we respect that here.

Ultimately, the worst of both worlds would be trying to stay together but resenting that your H has many limitations and holding on to expectations for him that he isn't meeting (whether he can't, or won't, or doesn't, impacts you the same).

Drilling down into the specifics, many sensitive people do better at hearing others after they feel heard themselves. It may be the case for you and your H that you need to be the "emotional leader" in the relationship, and be prepared to listen to him first, before finding a structured way to share your feelings with him. Not fair -- but maybe a path forward. If he doesn't feel heard/understood, he may escalate in nonfunctional ways and then you really don't have a chance of him hearing you. If you can listen with empathy to him and validate the feelings and emotions behind his inaccurate words, that may give you both a better chance of feeling heard.

Anyway -- that's a lot, I know! I'd be curious if anything in the workshop links stands out to you?

[Koguma]

We've been together for 1.5 years and married for 11months. We married because of my status so we both know that this isn't going to be a normal marriage since we are still in the process of learning about each other. Because we are legally bonded, we ended up taking a role as a married couple or expected each other from our own views about a marriage/committed relationship which caused, I think, lots of stresses. I started letting go of my expectation about this relationship and trying to find a way to work with him while I'm taking care of my feelings because I do love him and I don't want to leave the relationship.

He told me his therapist told so. When we have conflicts, before I say anything about his behavior/reaction, he brings up first that it isn't his fault which it leads the way it is my responsibility. I understand it is not his fault. I don't even want to argue who's right. I never did but he sees that way whenever I raise the concern or want to discuss.  I also learned from the books and videos about how to communicate about the reality since he has a distorted view of what's happening. This part is extremely difficult for me.

It is clear for me to understand the way you described. I admitted that I haven't radically accepted his condition. Once I'm triggered, it is very challenging to hold the space to listen to him. I will read and apply to the things you shared. I've been reading a lot about BPD since his diagnosis but it is mostly about BPD itself and I couldn't find lots of resources about how to manage/sustain the relationship with someone who has BPD so I'm sure the workshop would help me a lot. Thanks so much!

[kells76]

Hi again Koguma;

We've been together for 1.5 years and married for 11months. We married because of my status so we both know that this isn't going to be a normal marriage since we are still in the process of learning about each other. Because we are legally bonded, we ended up taking a role as a married couple or expected each other from our own views about a marriage/committed relationship which caused, I think, lots of stresses. I started letting go of my expectation about this relationship and trying to find a way to work with him while I'm taking care of my feelings because I do love him and I don't want to leave the relationship.

OK, so it's fairly new, and there are some logistical/legal factors, too. That helps to know, thank you.

It's wise of you to let go of some expectations about "we will be a traditional happy couple". Each marriage looks different; what works for one might not for another. It may be that the two of you function best with separate living accommodations, for example, even if that doesn't look like a typical marriage arrangement.

Have the two of you ever attended relationship counseling together?

He told me his therapist told so. When we have conflicts, before I say anything about his behavior/reaction, he brings up first that it isn't his fault which it leads the way it is my responsibility. I understand it is not his fault. I don't even want to argue who's right. I never did but he sees that way whenever I raise the concern or want to discuss.  I also learned from the books and videos about how to communicate about the reality since he has a distorted view of what's happening. This part is extremely difficult for me.

I ask because -- we are wired to believe what we hear, especially in an intimate relationship. It would be difficult to function if we went through life skeptical of everything!

So, that can impact how we hear what a pwBPD says to us. Our instinctive response is to believe what we're told; that's very human. What is important to remember is that pwBPD struggle with a lot of shame. It can be an overwhelming need for them to rid themselves of any feeling of shame -- any action is OK if it meets the intense need to feel OK with themselves.

Unless you were in the session with your H and his T, I might take what he tells you "with a grain of salt". You don't have to take it to an extreme -- you don't have to think "everything he tells me is a lie to protect his feelings" -- but it also won't be very effective for you to interact with his statements as if he didn't have BPD.

It might be more helpful to slow yourself down when he tells you "my therapist said X... my neighbor said Y... all my friends think Z about you...", and think through -- what light does his statement put him in? Is it possible that I'm not hearing exactly what the other person said, but am hearing his desired perspective? Could it be that the therapist said something slightly different -- there is a grain of truth -- but my H struggles so much with shame that he is telling me a variation?

It is possible that his therapist said something more like: "You know, Mr. Koguma, nobody asks to have BPD, and I know you didn't choose to have it. It's a serious mental illness, and it's good that you're here getting treatment for it. While having it isn't your fault, healing from it -- and changing your actions to be less hurtful to yourself and your loved ones -- is your responsibility, and that's going to take hard work on your part."

Hearing that his actions hurt his loved ones might not be something he could tell you without feeling a lot of shame. So, perhaps he focused in on the one non-shaming part where he can feel OK about himself: "My T said it isn't my fault" but left out a lot more that was said.

That's all hypothetical, as I wasn't in the room either -- but it could help you navigate the relationship moving forward. Again, you don't have to go to the extreme of "well, now I get to treat everything he says as false and distorted". It's more about giving yourself a moment to remember that he is struggling with a very impactful mental illness, with a big shame component, and that will influence what and how he communicates. You can have compassion for his pain, and also know that you can validate the feelings behind his words without having to agree with how he says things went. For example, when he said "my therapist said it was not my fault", a validating response (interacting with his feelings, not his assertions) could have been:

"It would feel really good to hear that from a therapist"

Or, "That must have been validating"

Or, "What a relief, to get feedback like that"

You don't have to agree "yes dear, that is exactly what your T told you" -- but you can put yourself in his shoes. If you thought you heard your own therapist take some blame off of you, wouldn't you feel relieved?

It is clear for me to understand the way you described. I admitted that I haven't radically accepted his condition. Once I'm triggered, it is very challenging to hold the space to listen to him. I will read and apply to the things you shared. I've been reading a lot about BPD since his diagnosis but it is mostly about BPD itself and I couldn't find lots of resources about how to manage/sustain the relationship with someone who has BPD so I'm sure the workshop would help me a lot. Thanks so much!

If you have a moment, take a look at Loving Someone with Borderline Personality Disorder - Shari Y. Manning, PhD -- many members who choose to stay in relationships have found it helpful.

Glad you're here.

[Koguma]

Oh wow, thanks so so much.
Yeah, I have to learn how to respond in this kind of situations and navigate my thought process. Empathizing without agreeing makes sense and I tried it but applying it is hard. I become blank and don't know what exactly I should say. This is very very helpful. Thank you!

[kells76]

Yeah, I have to learn how to respond in this kind of situations and navigate my thought process. Empathizing without agreeing makes sense and I tried it but applying it is hard. I become blank and don't know what exactly I should say.

That is really normal!

It's not a very intuitive skill, so it makes a lot of sense that when we're newer at it, the application is difficult and we struggle to remember "what do I do now". It's like learning a new sport or hobby. Soccer or knitting will feel awkward at first. We may have to repeat "simple" moves over and over. However, the fact that it feels difficult or awkward at first does not mean we are doing it incorrectly or it won't "work"! It just means we are at a very normal stage of the learning process.

Over time, if you are committed to learning this new approach to communication, it can become much more intuitive and feel smoother. You are always welcome to share real-life examples here, and we can practice with you.

Relatedly -- I joined the NEABPD Family Connections class, which is for if you have someone in your life struggling with BPD/CED (chronic emotional dysregulation). We talked the other day about if we felt able to be less invalidating and less judgmental towards the pwBPD during interactions/conversations. What one leader mentioned, which really stuck with me, is that sometimes in the heat of things, applying our skills is really tough. We just can't think of what to say or do! Bus the nice thing is -- doing nothing and saying nothing (or doing very little/saying only one or two words) is valid. It's the skill of: not making things worse.

So, to bring that back around: even if, because this is new to you, you get stuck and can't think of "how do I validate this"... you can still use the skill of "not making it worse" 

I wonder if you could allow yourself to practice validating in smaller ways -- a compassionate facial expression, using brief responses ("oh..." or "wow..." or "that's horrible...") -- sometimes that's enough.

Hope that helps take some pressure off of you -- it's OK not to have a grand "validation statement"! You can validate just by not making things worse, and you can validate with compassionate body language and tones and brief words.

[Pook075]

Unless you were in the session with your H and his T, I might take what he tells you "with a grain of salt".

To add to that thought, I have been in many therapy sessions with my BPD daughter and the therapist would give all sorts of constructive criticism for her to work on.  Yet she'd always focus in on one thing, any little thing that excused her behavior, and say repeatedly that the therapist told her top do it.

For example, one time he said that having close friends and family was important.  So whenever my kid wanted to do anything, she'd say that I had to let her go do whatever because the therapist said she needed it.  She'd twist things to fit what she wanted and ignore the rest...this is very common with BPD.

So even if the therapist did say it, or said something similar, it's probably not being used in the proper context.

[Koguma]

To add to that thought, I have been in many therapy sessions with my BPD daughter and the therapist would give all sorts of constructive criticism for her to work on.  Yet she'd always focus in on one thing, any little thing that excused her behavior, and say repeatedly that the therapist told her top do it.

For example, one time he said that having close friends and family was important.  So whenever my kid wanted to do anything, she'd say that I had to let her go do whatever because the therapist said she needed it.  She'd twist things to fit what she wanted and ignore the rest...this is very common with BPD.

So even if the therapist did say it, or said something similar, it's probably not being used in the proper context.

Yes, that's what has been happening. His psychiatrist and therapist told him that smoking weed is better and healthier coping mechanism for his condition than doing drugs and self harm. This is of course so true but then he started smoking weed every few hours(high dose which is illegal here) and when I raise the concern of his weed use, he says this is the healthiest way to cope and he must do this way and blame me that I don't understand him and shame him. He was also diagnosed with weed disorder which the SW at the hospital told me that may have contributed to his psychosis recently.

I probably have to let go of the fear he can't handle himself and let him do what he wants do and learn from the consequences. I realized I can't stop him all the time from what he is doing. I started reading the book " Loving Someone with Borderline Personality Disorder - Shari Y. Manning, PhD" and it described exactly what I was going through.