Second guessing self.

[SoVeryConfused]

Hi,
I feel like my people-pleasing ways (working on) make it hard for me to 1) hold limits and 2) know what's healthy and what's not. I question every response.

The latest - my child has me painted all black and has for months. Speaks to my H respectfully and daily, but does not want a relationship with me (yet does).
If I call, the child tells me to stop. If I don't call, the child tells me I am hateful because I ignore child and don't care. It feels like a power trip - the child expects me to beg to salvage the relationship, (I have asked to work on it and reconciliation)  but then enjoys rejecting me and speaking horribly.

Admittedly, I haven't stopped doing much reaching out. I often answer when called. And have sent texts. I've been told to lose the child's number. to stop contacting her, etc. But when I do, I'm ignoring the child. I can't JADE, but boy, do I want to because it's crazy-making!

I did send a gift for the holiday and texted. The child called to ask for the return label yesterday, saying - I don't want anything from you. I just said - that's fine. Then toss it or donate it. Didn't get upset or emotional.

Then, immediately child asks me for a favor -  to pick up an item and leave it for them, so they can get it and not see me. 

I was honest and calm and said - This just feels bad. You say you hate me, but now you want me to run around and do a favor for you? Why would anyone want to do that?  I was proud of myself. I'm scared of this kid's reactions.

Now child is furious. Ended with being told to FU. Calling and calling again. I'm not picking up.

Validation isn't working. Apologies for genuine things don't. Honestly, nothing does. It always circles back to berating - every single call.

I question myself. I called my H and told him, and he thinks it's nuts that I even entertain doubt or doing this favor for the child. He loses respect for me honestly, saying I'm training child how to treat me. He just never puts up with a breath of disrespect from the child and they treat him well.

My therapist said this week, your job is to come healthy to the relationship because that's what I can control, but even if I do, that does not mean the other person will. Ugh.

I'm not sure what I'm asking - maybe just venting. Being the villain 100% of the time just makes me want to avoid the child, and I'm tired.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Pook075]

My therapist said this week, your job is to come healthy to the relationship because that's what I can control, but even if I do, that does not mean the other person will. Ugh.

What your therapist was saying here was that by focusing on your own emotional needs, it will change your relationship with your kid.

Does it mean she'll suddenly be nice?  Nope, not at all.  That's outside of your control.  But it does mean that you'll be able to choose to accept, reject, or deny any of her words or actions.

Accepting is listening and showing empathy, responding with love.

Rejecting is also listening without choosing to respond or discuss

Denying is saying, nope, we're not doing this...I'll talk to you later.

If my BPD kid calls and I can tell she's unstable, then I'm going to make one of those three choices.  My intention is always acceptance and to build her up, help her fight through whatever is bothering her. 

When conversation becomes unhinged, I'll listen patiently as long as I possibly can, hoping the moment passes and we can get back on track.  However, I don't engage in any way because I've already accepted that this is disordered thinking and the only productive goal is to move past it.

If things get too heated though, or the ire turns toward me, then I make a conscious decision to disengage.  Sorry, I can't talk right now...let's calm down and get in touch later.  And I understand what you're saying, the calls continue and the texts pour in...but so what?  Turn your phone off and go about your day.

If your kid wants to scream and rant, teach her that you're not going to do that anymore.  How?  Just stop doing it completely...don't argue, don't take blame, don't make this personal.  She's mentally ill and responding badly, which means that you must respond how anyone else would in that situation when you're trying to teach a kid to grow up.  You disengage and stick to your boundaries.

I know this feels really complicated, and with your kid's emotions it certainly is.  But at any time, you can choose to stop dealing with it completely by saying, "Nope, not today.  I'm not listening to that."

You said the relationship is great with dad.  That's perfect!  Every time she comes unhinged, hand your husband the phone or tell your kid to call him.  It really is that easy, all you have to do is stop standing in her line of fire. 

Go no contact if you have to and block her on everything.  She'll scream and rant to dad, which is perfectly fine.  He doesn't put up with her drama and can cut her off immediately when she goes there.  That's because their relationship is different, he's not walking on eggshells and she respects him for it.  You have to do exactly the same thing, regardless of what others say or feel.

Why?  Because at the end of the day, this is about you and you alone.  That's the only thing you can control.  You must reject or deny all that other outside noise though, and stop allowing it to control you.  That's how all of this changes.

[Notwendy]

The flip flopping- back and forth- I don't want anything from you - will you please do me a favor?

There's a book "I Hate You - Don't Leave Me" - sounds like this.

BPD affects the closest relationships the most. In general, all kids will act out more around their mother as it's often the closest attachment, and being female, she may project her undesirable feelings and self image on to you rather than your H.

Since she seems to have a good relationship with your H- that's a positive. It's an open door. It's not easy on you to be the target, but if he's the "good guy" and it keeps the connection- you two are a team.

In Karpman triangle dynamics- he seems to be "siding" with her. That feels hurtful to you but keep the long range goal in mind. If you and your H "sided" - that door may close. Let him be the "good guy".

That said, what your T says is true- you need to also take care of your feelings and not enable her to treat you poorly. I think you did well by not being emotional over the gift and not agreeing to run the errand as you'd have felt resentment if you did.

If I were to "tweak" your reply when asked to run the errand, I think I'd say less. Say "No, I can't do that" or something short- and don't get into a discussion over it. When you began to explain your feelings- yes, you were feeling hurt- but your D is in "victim" perspective.  As much as you wish for her to see how her behavior is affecting you, in victim perspective, it may just agitate her. It's not that you can't speak your mind- you can- but it's about what is effective or not.

Keep working with your T as your support. While it doesn't feel supportive to vent to your H, remember, if it feels as if your D paints you "black" and him "white" it's still a connection with her. You two are both her parents. Your H may not be able to perceive this from your perspective as he's not in the same position.

You still  need to "teach her how to treat you" but I think behind her pushing you away, and then asking you to do something for her- she's actually scared and you are too. Taking care of yourself, your own feelings, and being less emotionally reactive to her are helpful and it seems you are working on that.

[CC43]

Well it seems to me that your daughter really needs you right now, because she’s calling and texting all the time. It sounds like her statements about not wanting a relationship with you and not wanting to talk with you are actually the opposite of how she really feels, because if what she said were true, she wouldn’t bother contacting you at all!  She clearly doesn’t mean anything she says, as she’s an emotional mess because of BPD. In fact what I hear is (I) neediness and (II) general fear. It sound to me like she can’t cope very well with life and stress, and she needs you to make her feel better, but it’s all coming out the wrong way. Maybe she doesn’t want to admit that to herself or to you; it’s easier to blame you. YOU are making her miserable, and you don’t do anything to fix it, and so everything you say or do is just wrong. YOU are at fault in her mind. Do you see how that distorted thinking taints every interaction?  If you understand the distorted thinking, maybe her words won’t bother you so much. Just take her outbursts as a sign that she’s having a bad day. If you can’t help but absorb her negativity, then go ahead and keep your distance.  Just my two cents.

[SoVeryConfused]

Thank you all. The single topic child calls me about is me and my terrible parenting.not work or friends or apartment or life so I don’t have opportunities to support child through normal things right now.

 I really like the three options of accepting, rejecting, denying. Thank you. If conversations get more normal, that’s a good tactic. For now, maybe rejecting and certainly denying- not today- would be my options.

 I also like the advice to keep responses shorter. That’s hard!!! . I suppose I did try to explain, (I know!!)  hoping something would click. Such a default..

Cc- you are absolutely right. She is fearful and was closest emotionally with me. So I get the wrath but it’s 100% of the time. Being painted black in every phone call and text - even though disordered -  takes its toll.

I hope I can get to the place with therapy where I can be more matter of fact and go about my day. Not there right now but working on it. It’s a weird parenting spot for us to be in.

[Pook075]

I hope I can get to the place with therapy where I can be more matter of fact and go about my day. Not there right now but working on it. It’s a weird parenting spot for us to be in.

Absolutely, none of this is easy and it doesn't make "logical" sense.  When you fight emotions with logic though, it's like mixing oil and water...they just don't go together.

So either you need to lean more on your emotional side to understand where her outbursts are coming from, or she needs to be more logical...which is impossible when she's disordered and into her feelings. 

The goal is to simply guide her through the emotional outbursts to a calmer, more logical place of thinking...or to take a step back and wait for her to calm down on her own.  Both are the exact same goal though in that you're not going to stand in the middle of the tornado and hope that words will fix things.  They just won't until you reach a place where you don't take any of this personally...and that's so so hard to do.

My thoughts are with you and I'm so sorry you're stuck within the chaos right now.  It will get better in time though if you choose to make things better.

[SoVeryConfused]

Hi,
Child has interacted with me little over the past week.
When she did call the last two days, I followed the advice here:
Wait, call back later and act pleasant. Did so. Immediately, it starts.

Child: "Stop calling me!"
I respond blandly - "ok, I was just returning your call." (It sounds silly even writing it.)
Her: "Well, stop calling me. I hate you."
Me: Ok, understood.
She hangs up.

Immediately calls me 10-20 times; I let most go.
I finally picked up to give her a chance.

She: So, are you coming home or are you lying again?  (Backstory: In civil times,* I offered to return home if something happened with her job. It was an authentic offer. But in the months since, it's been 100% verbally abusive.  FU, F off, you are dead to me in just the past week. Plus, 2x I've gone home by request and she refused to see me - I trigger her.)

Me - I'm not returning home right now, but I can support you from here. And I will be home in 2.5 weeks.
Child: You are a liar. I hate you. 
Me: You sound upset.
Child: No - I'm not upset. I just think you are ridiculous and a horrible mom. And I don't want a relationship with you. FU.
Hangs up.
Calls and texts x 20.

As CC said, I know she's stressed and does want a relationship. But she 100% holds a grudge against me as the total problem. Anyway, I was unemotional, kept sentences short and am trying to remember that the words aren't true. But gosh - sure can hurt.

[Notwendy]

Child: "Stop calling me!"
I respond blandly - "ok, I was just returning your call." (It sounds silly even writing it.)
Her: "Well, stop calling me. I hate you."
Me: Ok, understood.
She hangs up.

Immediately calls me 10-20 times; I let most go.



Child: You are a liar. I hate you. 
Me: You sound upset.
Child: No - I'm not upset. I just think you are ridiculous and a horrible mom. And I don't want a relationship with you. FU.
Hangs up.
Calls and texts x 20.

Oh gosh, this would be comical if it wasn't so sad and difficult- as it is.

My BPD mother would do the call back after a call if I had a boundary or didn't agree with what she wanted. Not 20 X but she'd call back several times after a call and if I didn't pick up, leave messages.

My mother would also, if she was feeling anxious- call people multiple times until she got through. So if you didn't answer the call the first time, she'd call back again and again. When she was in assisted living- she'd push the nurse call button over and over again like this too. The nurses were not pleased with this and spoke to her about it. They had other residents to attend to and so they could not respond immediately unless it was urgent.

To my BPD mother, she felt her needs were urgent- whether or not they were medically urgent.

What drove this behavior for my mother was extreme anxiety. She could not handle being alone. So she'd want someone with her- even if it was on the phone to talk to her- and call over and over again to get someone to pick up. She wanted someone to vent to and to reassure her- to be an emotional caretaker. This wasn't just in her elder years- I saw this behavior in my teen years.

Her emotional needs were huge and so this could be an overwhelming situation for others. When I did visit her- the visits included her verbal and emotional abuse, and on the phone too. I think this was her "emotional dumping" and it would happen with the people closest to her and we had to have boundaries with this. I think this frustrated her, but also it was an emotionally abusive situation for people close to her.

Typically, people call each other for a connection of some sort- to speak to them, or exchange information. If we consider that the drive for these phone calls is anxiety and an emotional projection (to relieve the emotional discomfort) it may make more sense. D calls- or you call back, and it goes right to the "dump" "I hate you, you are a bad mother" ----.  In your world you are expecting a conversation. In her world, she's releasing emotions on you- the closest person to her- because she feels the safest to do that with you.

These are hurtful statements. You are her mother. It's impossible to not have feelings about this. (I would visit my BPD mother and drive home in tears sometimes) so you respond with a communication- like what is normal to you. But she's not communicating in the way one expects in a phone call- she's projecting feelings. If this is interrupted- she's not finished. Calls back again, and again, and again.

For me, the situation got clearer when I observed this with other people. The nurse manager would call me and say "your mother called me 20 times last night" and I'd have received several calls too. This was not personal or relationship driven for her. This was anxiety.

It's difficult, because, even though we care about our family members, it's not reasonable to be on call as someone's emotional caretaker all the time, and if the situation is emotionally and verbally abusive, we should not tolerate it. In addition, if we are the emotional caretaker for them, we are enabling them and preventing them from learning their own emotional regulation skills. You are doing the right thing by not doing this, by having boundaries, and letting your D have the task of managing her own feelings, but this isn't comfortable for her and so she reacts like she does.

[SoVeryConfused]

Wow, Wendy... this is extremely helpful. Thank you. Especially the part about me expecting a conversation vs. her seeing it as an opportunity to dump out her hard emotions. And that if interrupted, since I'm starting to hold a boundary, there's a desperate anxiety that is urgently trying to keep it going. I never looked at it like that.

I am also recognizing that whenever we interact right now, no matter how non-emotional I come to the conversation, it seems that just interacting with me fuels her angry emotions. I've read it as if supplying fuel for this emotional dysregulation. Which makes me wonder- is contact with me even good for her?

I feel sad for her. I love this child, and she is suffering. I know. One of the hardest parts is keeping a soft heart for her while maintaining newish emotional boundaries and also not throwing up my hands to walk away. Thank you again for taking the time to walk through this.

[Notwendy]

I am also recognizing that whenever we interact right now, no matter how non-emotional I come to the conversation, it seems that just interacting with me fuels her angry emotions. I've read it as if supplying fuel for this emotional dysregulation.

Which makes me wonder- is contact with me even good for her?

This is a good question and I've wondered the same. It seemed that every contact led to the same dynamics. I'd visit with the thought "maybe this time, I will get it right" and even if I tried my best, she'd find something I did or didn't do that she was upset about. It was a similar dynamic- she wanted me to meet a need of some sort and yet somehow she'd be angry at me about something.

I don't know the answer to that question but another one is - how is this affecting me? I would drive home in tears sometimes. So there had to be a limit to this.

I did a lot of work with counseling and 12 steps about boundaries and enabling. It was easier to manage when I was able to have boundaries, limit listening to verbal abuse. It may not have changed her but it was necesary for me to do that.

I don't think contact with you is supplying fuel for your D's emotional regulation. What fuels drama is reacting to it. I think the emotional dysregulation is internal to her. It's already there. Your presence doesn't cause this and it also doesn't "fix" it. Your contact is a way for her to project it.

I think one difference is age. My mother had these behaviors for decades before anyone understood BPD or what to do about it. She was not likely to learn new behaviors in her elder years. People don't learn to regulate their own emotions if other people do that for them.

Your D has different opportunities. I think when you do have contact with her, do it where you can manage her reactions for yourself, for the extent you are able to. A wise person advised me to contact my mother on a schedule, whatever that is. If she dysregulated I could say "Ok Mom, we'll speak next Sunday" and end the call. Since another time was set up, this wasn't abandonment. If she called in the middle of the time we scheduled I decided whether or not to pick up again. This got off schedule as she aged and had more needs so it was more frequent then.

It's also not just with you. It feels like it's with you and you may be the main person for this but the dymamics and emotional dysregulation are hers.

[Pook075]

I am also recognizing that whenever we interact right now, no matter how non-emotional I come to the conversation, it seems that just interacting with me fuels her angry emotions. I've read it as if supplying fuel for this emotional dysregulation. Which makes me wonder- is contact with me even good for her?

I remember as a teenager, there was a girl I really liked.  She was beautiful and extremely popular; everyone wanted her attention.  And that made me feel really uneasy, it made me doubt myself whenever I was around her.  So I'd try to convey the aura of, "I don't care if we hang out or not."

Was I lying to myself?  Sure, but I was doing it to avoid taking a chance and being rejected.

I shared that to say that this isn't "only BPD" behavior that you're seeing- it's pretty normal when someone wants a relationship but is afraid to get hurt.

What changed between my BPD daughter and I wasn't instant, and it took several months to reinforce to her that I loved her and wanted a different type of relationship.  But essentially, we had a conversation where she was in a panic, saying ugly things about me, and I simply asked, "Why are you so upset?"

Her answer was a wave of emotional responses that really didn't add up to anything.  This happened, that happened, I used to yell at her to clean her room, a friend attempted suicide today, etc.

And I was like woah, what happened with your friend?

My kid replied, "You hate my friends and call them all losers.  You wouldn't understand."

I said, "I hate that your friends bring you down with their drama, but I don't hate them.  I just hate seeing you get hurt all the time.  Tell me what happened..."

So she began the story, which was a bunch of nothing turned into something life-changing.  One friend betrayed another friend.  The 2nd friend went to a third friend and vented.  The 3rd friend vented to my daughter, and she told the first friend.  Now the 2nd friend wanted to end her life because nobody understands her and everyone bullies her, etc.

It was hard to listen to all of this, and there was no suicide attempt.  The four or five friends were so used to feeding off of each other's drama though, that someone was on the verge at all times from being so misunderstood.  This would upset everyone else and they'd have to rush to the rescue, all while their own mental health was crashing.

I listened though without saying a word, letting my kid share as much as she needed.  And when she finally stopped, I told her what I tell people here- to focus on what you can control, and to avoid being pulled into everyone else's drama.  If you take sides and try to be the rescuer, you end up needing to be rescued every single time and those friends aren't there for you in a healthy way.

Maybe some of that got through, maybe not, but the conversation ended pleasantly enough.  A few days later, my kid called to vent again, said something too personal, and I excused myself from the call while saying, "I love you and I hate you're going through this.  Let's talk soon."

Slowly, over time, my kid would call me at her worst.  But instead of blaming me, she'd ask what she should do.  And at first, I didn't go into too much detail...I just focused on calming her down so we could have a normal conversation.  That can't happen when their minds are going a million miles an hour. 

I was slowly becoming the one to call for reassurance, calmness, and non-judgement.  As long as she was respectful, I'd listen and give advice whenever I could.  And somewhere along that path, everything changed.

My kid has cussed me out once in the past year, and it's because she did something stupid and said, "Don't tell mom."  If she's suicidal or in danger, I'm telling my BPD ex wife every single time, because our BPD kid comes before our divorce.  Plus, it cuts out so much of the he said/she said drama.

That's the only time I've been yelled at but at the same time, that's a boundary for me since I live overseas.  If you tell me something and it involves your mental health, I won't keep the secret.  So I don't get any of those calls anymore...which is a good thing.  She's realized 'don't call dad unless I actually want/need help'.

I hope that helps.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[CC43]

Hi there,

I'll just share a little perspective.  I don't quite remember how old your daughter is, but I'm guessing early 20s, right?  I'm guessing that because my BPD stepdaughter acted in a similar way in her early 20s.  I think that what was happening was that she was bumping up against the challenges of adulthood for the first time, but she was equipped with the emotional maturity of a young teen.  It's as if she was set up to fail, and in fact she probably felt like she was failing all the time.  It must have been extremely scary and frustrating for her, and she coped by lashing out at her family and friends.  Unfortunately, that meant losing all her friends and becoming estranged from most of her family, making her extremely lonely on top of everything else.

Though early adulthood usually comes with complete freedom to decide how to spend one's day, I think this lack of structure can be debilitating for some people, especially those with volatile emotions.  While you or I will get up in the morning and go about our day with purpose and conviction, someone with volatile emotions (and without someone to hold their hand) can struggle with even getting out of bed.  The choices--get up? browse social media? work out? eat or skip breakfast? make the bed?--are overwhelming.  A bad mood will lead to a poor choice, like staying in bed too long, and I think a little setback like a late start can potentially derail their entire day.  The inner self-talk is extremely negative (I don't want to get up because I hate school/my job, I can't take it, it's too hard, everybody else has it so easy, why do I have to do this, it's so unfair, if I were smarter or prettier, I wouldn't have to work so hard, my parents don't help me one bit, they're making me suffer, if I had a better childhood I'd be better off, I'm so exhausted all the time, I don't even have energy to get out of bed, my classmates/coworkers must think I'm a loser, I hate this, why can't anything go my way, I'm such a basket case, life sucks, I can't take this anymore, I hate myself, I hate life, I hate EVERYONE!  A minor setback can make her see-saw between anger and depression, back and forth.  She's constantly irritable and annoyed, and any little stress or inconvenience "triggers" her.  Does that sound about right?  Worse, her perennial bad attitude can adversely affect her life.  She might lose friends, fail a class or get fired from a job.  Then she faces real failures on top of imagined ones.  Life as an adult only seems to get harder and harder for her.

She's taking her stress out on you.  She tells herself that it's your fault, because it's just too hard for her to admit that she's the one with the problems.  In fact, I bet that when she was younger, it was easier to blame you and/or her siblings for her woes, but now that she's on her own, she only has herself.  I bet that she RESENTS you for needing you so much.  I bet you supported her throughout her childhood, and she's missing having you there to do things for her, remove obstacles from her path and comfort her whenever she's in distress.  In fact, you continue to support her, emotionally and/or financially, and she resents that she needs you so much.  Nevertheless, now that you're not right by her side all day, she's spinning out of control.  I think that's what happened to my stepdaughter.  Moreover, without the structure of her childhood homelife (regular mealtimes, school schedule, etc.), she makes poor daily choices that end up making her feel poorly, maybe even sick.  A poor diet and erratic sleep schedules are examples.  I think that for someone who is emotionally volatile, a healthy routine can be comforting, and since she doesn't follow one, she's even more unhinged than when she was younger.

That's a long-winded way of saying, this is not your fault.  Your daughter's accusations are baseless, and if she tells you FU, that's just misplaced anger.  I know you hate seeing her so distressed and unhinged, but she's still learning how to control her emotions and make better choices for herself.  I think you're headed in the right direction with your neutral, terse responses, like OK, I'll talk to you later.  When my stepdaughter was unhinged (which was a daily/hourly occurrence when she was at her worst), I thought in terms of giving her "adult time outs," meaning time and space to cool off.  At the same time, I got a time out too, away from her nasty mood.  Usually that meant that I took a walk outside, while she holed up in her room.  Later on, when she was living elsewhere, that meant not getting a text from her for a few days.  If she sent a nasty text, the best response was to ignore it in my opinion.  I'm convinced that she never meant what she said in those nasty texts, and by ignoring them, she can pretend that we never saw them in the first place.  I know, it's not exactly the same for me, because I'm not her real mom, and so I don't feel guilt.  But I think I do empathize with the situation, because nobody likes to see someone in the family in distress.

Finally I'll add that BPD is treatable!  The issue is that your daughter has to want to get treatment and make some changes to start to feel better.  For as long as she's blaming you for her horrible life, she's probably not ready to do that.  If she's digging farther and farther back in the childhood archive to blame you for current distress, she's getting farther away from acknowledging that she's the one with the problems (in my humble opinion).  But if she's starting to talk about current issues without blaming you, that might be a sign that she's emotionally more stable and thinking more clearly.  If she's talking about plans for the future, now that's a welcome change in my opinion.  And if she's "testing" you all the time, that could be a sign that she feels out of control, and to regain a sense of control, she's trying to control YOU.  While controlling you might make her feel better in the moment, I doubt it does anything to help her in the long term.

All my best to you.  Hang in there!