Losing My Kids to Personality Disordered Mother

[sunnyalot]

Hi,
After 20 years of having been a loving spouse and doting father to four children my wife (who I filed for divorce from a month ago) has turned our family into a living hell.  She comes from a family where her father was an alcoholic, her mother involved herself mostly outside of the home, her brother was an alcoholic and suffered from anorexia, another brother had serious depression issues and a twice-divorced sister who accused the father of having sexually abused her at a young age.  My wife was several years younger than her siblings and was home as a young child with her parents and could herself have been the victim abuse.  After more than a year of therapy (my wife is on her fourth therapist but we did see one therapist together several times) I'm told she is "personality disordered", exhibits signs of BPD and clearly has suffered some severe trauma that is now manifesting itself with full force.  This could have really accelerated with the death of both parents a few years ago.

Whenever she had trouble with relationships in the past she chose to simply abandon the relationship. It was "her way or the highway".  As most of these relationships were peripheral to our family I tolerated seeing casual acquaintances fall by the wayside every so often.

Over a year ago the issue hit at home.  There was an episode that involved my teenage daughter and her first cousin (who were best of friends).  Frankly it was a typical teenage quarrel that would have been worked out by the girls.  But my wife inserted herself and things escalated quickly.  Needless to say the conflict was not resolved despite repeated conversations between my wife and my sister (my daughter didn't have permission to really resolve this directly with her cousin) and matters continued to deteriorate.  My wife felt she was "protecting" my daughter from abuse (which is not how I'd characterize it at all) and no apology was ever good enough. 

This gradually involved my out of town brother and his wife, my other sisters and my parents.  Despite efforts by each of them the "my way or the highway" attitude persisted and each person was gradually picked off.  My wife characterized herself as a "scapegoat" saying family members became upset with her when she was only trying to "defend" her daughter.  My wife sent a twenty page open letter to the entire family basically telling everyone how terrible they were and their kids were and that she's wonderful.  My sisters wrote me letters back that questioned why this hadn’t been resolved and were not effusive enough in their praise of my wife.  I made the mistake of sharing these letters with my wife and she used their responses to say they are all evil.  In fact THEY are all narcissists!

I'll add that each of my siblings have multiple children generally the same age as our children and they all spent considerable time together in school and especially for the numerous family gatherings we'd have to celebrate birthdays, holidays etc.  Because my siblings and parents were put on the "bad list" by my wife all of their kids were as well. We stopped attending all family functions.

In order to try to re-create harmony in my little family and in the bigger family I agreed to accommodate my wife and basically take a "time out" from any interactions with my bigger family.  I did this for over a year. It was incredibly painful for me and confusing for the kids. It made no difference.  My wife just emboldened her position that if you don't characterize this behavior as "abuse" and "validate" her and our daughter then you are out.  Thinking back I probably adopted this “isolationism” strategy because I knew if I didn’t everything would have fallen apart sooner.

As 2016 came to an end it became more clear to me that no matter how long I kept my family away it would never improve.  My wife had decided that the path forward was to cut out my family permanently (as she had cut out acquaintances over the years) and then we could be happy.  I'll add her best friend of 30 plus years was discarded last summer because she wouldn't "validate" my wife's one-sided view.  Her sister was also discarded for accusing her father of abuse.

When I confronted my wife and said I could no longer live like this she turned began to turn our kids against me!  She told them "dad doesn't support me", "he cares more about his big family than us" etc.

My wife continued to send me lengthy emails and texts explaining why she was right and everyone else was wrong. Despite numerous therapy sessions she never moved one inch towards any reasonable compromise.  For example she could have said I can see my family and deal with any bad behavior (by the teenage cousins mostly), the kids can interact how they're comfortable and she can participate whenever she wants.  That won't work. Whenever I suggested some middle ground (or the therapist did) she'd storm out saying things like "go %$^& yourself" to me.  She has hung up the phone on me innumerable times for not agreeing with her about anything related to this.

So after two months of living in a house where no one (other than my son) talks to me and over a year of pure torment I filed for divorce. As you might expect she has ratcheted up the pressure tremendously.  My impressionable teenage girls don't stand a chance against a mother who spends 24 hours a day tearing down their father.  It is the worst imaginable existence.  I have been told to stay in the home while the divorce unfolds (which will take several months) but doing so allows my wife to model horrific behavior for her girls.  My son comes home from school and finds her some days crying on the floor with my sisters.  When he has asked her to compromise she slams his door and drives away.  Her behavior is consistently abhorrent.  She is destroying my girls and it doesn't seem like there is anything I can do (quickly anyway) to make this stop.  It's as if there is raw sewage spilling into a lake; I'm aware of it but can do nothing to end the pollution.

I apologize in advance for the length of this overview but wanted to describe as much of this insanity as possible.  I'd certainly appreciate any insight or perspective that would be helpful.

[Sluggo]

Sunnyalot,

Wow Sunnyalot I am sorry you are going through this.  It must be extremely difficutl.  Please know that your story is very familiar.  In fact, this hits my story to a T.  I was married 18 years with 7 kids.  I was/am a doting father.  However I did many things to appease my wife so I could try to control her outbursts.  I was scared of them.  I hated the belittleing, emasculation in front of the kids, the contempt, the name calling, etc.   

In order to try to re-create harmony in my little family and in the bigger family I agreed to accommodate my wife and basically take a "time out" from any interactions with my bigger family.

I did that two.  I also went about 3 years without communication with my family.  I believed my wife and she said if she had just some time away from them that things would get better.  However it only made things worse.  It was like giving a drug to a drug attic.  She wanted more and more concessions... .  and I mistakingly gave those to her.  The one that broke the camels back and brought me somewhat out of the FOG (fear, obligation, and guilt) was when I agreed not to see my father who was in hospice with only a 2 months to live.  He lived only 5 minutes from my house  However, my wife said I could only go there when I was with her.  I agreed (thinking I was proving my love) but after he died I realized what I did.  I also realized that nothing I am doing is making my wife better.  It got worse and worse.  I also left the house 2 weeks after the the funeral as living in the home was hell... .all the above things mentioned.  Plus she started keeping me in the bedroom and I could not leave with out touching her and she said she would call the cops if I did. 

I did this for over a year. It was incredibly painful for me and confusing for the kids. It made no difference.  My wife just emboldened her position that if you don't characterize this behavior as "abuse" and "validate" her and our daughter then you are out.  Thinking back I probably adopted this “isolationism” strategy because I knew if I didn’t everything would have fallen apart sooner.

Yes, it was when my father lived with us 2 years prior that he started seeing what was going on in our house.  I could not hide from the abuse as he was witnessing it.  He started being a sounding board for me until my wife kicked him out of the house (I agreed at the time also). 

This gradually involved my out of town brother and his wife, my other sisters and my parents.  Despite efforts by each of them the "my way or the highway" attitude persisted and each person was gradually picked off.

  It first started with my mother by not visiting her as my wife did not like her and said that my mom abused her by putting the dishes in the wrong cabinetes or folding the clothes wrong one day when my mom came over.  Then my older sister, my other sister, then other brother and sister all within a 5 year period.

When I confronted my wife and said I could no longer live like this she turned began to turn our kids against me!  She told them "dad doesn't support me", "he cares more about his big family than us" etc.

  Those were the exact words that my wife used when we told them I was getting an apartment.  I said that I want you to love Mom and Dad.  I don't want you to think that you have to pick sides, and so forth... .   Then my wife said are you done... .  and she said that you Dad loves his family more that he loves us  I read a book called Foundations which has helped me immensely by Dr. Craig Childless.  He also has a couple of videos on line.  This help me make sense of what is going on.  I highly recommend this book.  There is also a book by Bill Eddie called Splitting which also is helpful. 

I have been told to stay in the home while the divorce unfolds (which will take several months) but doing so allows my wife to model horrific behavior for her girls.

  I had read the same things on this board about not leaving the home.  However, it became to intolerable with all the stuff being about me and to me, the rages on me, the silent treatment, etc.  Was that a good decision?... .  It was the right thing for me to do at the time.  I started healing.    However it was a big price... .  I quickly became excluded from the house and from the children.  My children were being told by her that they could not talk to me.  She had one of my daughters call me and tell me that I needed to stop going to her volleyball games or my wife would pull her out of the volleyball for the season.  There were more of those types of stories of alienation.  It has been awful. 

What would be some points to think about or things I did that were helpful.  This points are made more completely in Bill Eddies book splitting. 
1.  I started recording all conversations when in the house. THIS IS IMPORTANT to do.   I would keep my cell phone in my pocket at all times while it was recording.  This has been extremely helpful with the lawyers, custody evaluator, my listening back to the conversations to confirm what I did hear from my wife despite the wife saying the exact opposite.  Do this now while still in the house. 
2.  I started reading the above books
3.  I started posting on this board my story and getting feedback from others who have been through it.
4.  If you are  leaving the house... .I would start taking possessions out of the house- photo albums, taxes, bank information, and anything else of importance.  Once you leave you might not get anything back.  My wife threw out my golf clubs and said that I must have taken them.  You know you can always make copies of the photos and give them back to her... .but she probably would not do the same to you. 
5.  My wife used the kids as the weapons and kept them from me.  That has been the absolute hardest part.  The preliminary order I signed was horrible.  I was still in the FOG and let my wife dictate what it should look like--  just like I did in our marriage.  I did not convey in strong language to my lawyer that my wife had a mental disorder and that I needed his help and guidance because I was a push over and was afraid to stand up to my wife.  Lawyer thought it was a run of the mill divorce and I was exaggerating.  I changed the lawyer after the prelim order was signed but I already made the major mistake of signing it.   
6.  I asked for a custody evaluation.  THIS WAS THE BEST THING I DID.  It was 86 pages long and did cost about 20K.  However, she saw my 'real wife' and not the one the public 'sees' as the perfect wife and mom.  It gave me 50/50 parenting time.  The 4 oldest kids are very alienated now as it has been 1 year since filing and still waiting on the divorce to go through (4th, 7th grade , sophmore and junior).  My wife keeps continuing the court cases.  The younger 3 have not been affected by the alienation yet (3rd, kinder, 3yrs).
8.  I feel much better / heart wrenching to see the kids alienated / but the little time I do have with the kids is how I want to parent and that has been wonderful.  My wife felt jealous of the time I even spent with the kids when living with her.     

I do not know what the right answer is, but I would spend time asking these questions on the board to get as much information as you can. 

[Stolen]

Sluggo - she threw out your Golf Clubs?

That is crossing the line.  Sorry... .


Seriously, I echo reading the stuff by Childress - I have never seen the evil of alienation explained as well as he does, particularly the central role of a disordered personality.

Sunny - so much of what you wrote is what I have experienced. Married 24 years until it ended (she filed), two daughters, 17 and 20 now - I have not seen them in almost 2 years now.  xW "didn't suffer fools" vs your "my way or highway", but same effect. She cut off family, friends of over a decade, work people etc.  I went the appeasement route also, didn't work for Chamberlain, didn't work for me. This is the classic "splitting".

God Bless you. Stay as close to your kids as you can.

[Stolen]

Sunny,

Here is the particular Childress writing that your story sparked in my head: https://drcraigchildressblog.com/2015/11/03/diagnosis-of-parental-alienation/

Read the part about the attachment trauma reenactment and see if it rings any bells. In my case it certainly did - my xW was reliving her abuse at the hands of her mother, and enlisted my daughters to play the roles of victims.  Interested in your thoughts after reading.

"The trauma reenactment narrative is in the pattern of “abusive parent”/”victimized child”/”protective parent.”  However, this is a false drama.  The targeted parent is not abusive, the child is not victimized, and the narcissistic/borderline parent is not a protective parent.  It is a false drama created by the pathology of the narcissistic/(borderline) parent."

[takingandsending]

Hi sunnyalot.

I wanted to wish you a welcome to bpdfamily. I am so sorry about the pain and hurt you are enduring in your relationship to your wife. It's that much harder when your wife is telling your children that you do not support her or them.

From your comments, it sounds as if your son has been willing to keep communication open with you, which is really good. Are your daughters currently in communication with you? I cannot imagine how tough it would be if my children no longer wanted to speak to me. That is heartbreaking.

It also sounds as if you are getting some legal advice. Have you found/retained an attorney at this point? If not, I really recommend that you consider that step soon. If you have already retained an attorney, you may want to ask him how much experience he has litigating cases where a spouse with personality disorder is involved. The courts often do look at the precedent of current living situations when a divorce action is brought, so if you were to move out and have limited (weekend only) to no access to your children, the courts very likely could rule to retain that arrangement, even if it is not reflective of your participation in the kids' lives prior to you moving out. Hence, the advice to remain in the house.

You also mentioned that you were told your wife is personality disordered, and she certainly seems to exhibit traits of someone with a PD. Did her therapist or your marriage counselor tell you their suspicions? Have they communicated that to your wife? Was there a diagnosis?

Many of us who made lives with a spouse with BPD/NPD find ourselves at this crossroads, where abusive behaviors worsen and no longer are manageable. Over time, as we gain some detachment from the immediate proximity to the relationship, we realize just how much "managing" we really were doing. The tools on this web page really offer great resources and assistance in beginning to understand this illness and the effects it has. As you learn this information, it may help your daughters as they continue to exist within their mom's world and influence. If you are able to develop clear and consistent boundaries with your wife, even in and after divorce, it models something new for them - not compliance, not invalidation, but empathy without enabling. I really encourage you to take a look through the tools here and keep communicating and reaching out on this forum.

Mostly, I wanted to let you know you are not alone, and extend a welcome. 

[lpheal]

What would be some points to think about or things I did that were helpful.  This points are made more completely in Bill Eddies book splitting. 
1.  I started recording all conversations when in the house. THIS IS IMPORTANT to do.   I would keep my cell phone in my pocket at all times while it was recording.  This has been extremely helpful with the lawyers, custody evaluator, my listening back to the conversations to confirm what I did hear from my wife despite the wife saying the exact opposite.  Do this now while still in the house. 
2.  I started reading the above books
3.  I started posting on this board my story and getting feedback from others who have been through it.
4.  If you are  leaving the house... .I would start taking possessions out of the house- photo albums, taxes, bank information, and anything else of importance.  Once you leave you might not get anything back.  My wife threw out my golf clubs and said that I must have taken them.  You know you can always make copies of the photos and give them back to her... .but she probably would not do the same to you. 
5.  My wife used the kids as the weapons and kept them from me.  That has been the absolute hardest part.  The preliminary order I signed was horrible.  I was still in the FOG and let my wife dictate what it should look like--  just like I did in our marriage.  I did not convey in strong language to my lawyer that my wife had a mental disorder and that I needed his help and guidance because I was a push over and was afraid to stand up to my wife.  Lawyer thought it was a run of the mill divorce and I was exaggerating.  I changed the lawyer after the prelim order was signed but I already made the major mistake of signing it.   
6.  I asked for a custody evaluation.  THIS WAS THE BEST THING I DID.  It was 86 pages long and did cost about 20K.  However, she saw my 'real wife' and not the one the public 'sees' as the perfect wife and mom.  It gave me 50/50 parenting time.  The 4 oldest kids are very alienated now as it has been 1 year since filing and still waiting on the divorce to go through (4th, 7th grade , sophmore and junior).  My wife keeps continuing the court cases.  The younger 3 have not been affected by the alienation yet (3rd, kinder, 3yrs).
8.  I feel much better / heart wrenching to see the kids alienated / but the little time I do have with the kids is how I want to parent and that has been wonderful.  My wife felt jealous of the time I even spent with the kids when living with her.     

I do not know what the right answer is, but I would spend time asking these questions on the board to get as much information as you can. 

Thank you so much for sharing this information. I find discussions like this so helpful to my own situation, which sounds so similar to others. I have met with several counselors and lawyers, yet have received more useful information from this site than those in-person discussions. I feel more prepared, and that I can actually develop strategies to be proactive as a result.

[sunnyalot]

Sluggo,
I really appreciate you taking the time to break this down for me based on your experiences.  It's hard to believe that there are others out there who have endured this degree of dysfunction but I know now there most certainly are.  I'm very sorry for what you went through as well.  I have been watching the Childress videos and they are very eye opening.  I struggle with what to do to extricate my kids from the grip their mother holds over them but feel powerless to do so in the face of her full fledged assaults on me.  What happened with your dad is awful.I can see what happened to you with your daughter's volleyball team happening to me as well.  It's amazing to me the parallels in our stories. I need to figure out a way to connect with the kids.  It just seems even if I am able to figure that out anything I do with them my wife with undo when she has them back.  i.e. "I'm sorry you had to be with your father", "I'm sorry he took you to see his parents (their grandparents! who they used to call Nana and Pop Pop but now they're bad).  "Just go greyrock" (that's a term she learned on line about how to deal with narcissists that she has adopted and encourages the kids to use with me) etc. I will continue to use this forum for guidance and advice.  I will be asking for a custody evaluation and pray the people who do it will be able to determine what is happening and help me take action.


Stolen,
I can't even imagine how painful it must be to not have had contact with your daughters for such a long time. I'm very sorry.  I understand splitting better now.  You're either "all good" or "all bad".  There is no middle and now I'm in the "all bad" category. I am halfway through the childress videos and hope to finish today.  I push to communicate with my kids every day but struggle with the rejection.  It's like having been a wonderful dad for almost twenty years build up no "currency" with them.  The bank account is empty.  But at the same time I think they live in fear of their mom; see how she treats me and are terrified if they communicate with me or show love or compassion that they'll be rejected too.  I ache for them but hate how they treat me.  The link you left for me was spot on.  Scary how much it resonated with me.  Thank you very much for that.

taking and sending,

That's for the welcome.
Being a push over and not standing up to my wife is something I really regret.  I don't know if it would have changed anything but she always got what she wanted so I feel like I was responsible for conditioning her in this way.  Why would she expect her demand to cut of my entire extended family would be rejected?  She always got everything else.  My son has been a champ.  As an 18 year old he gets it but loves his mom and wants to help.  He's taken on far more than any kid should have to shoulder.  His mother works him very hard to get him on her side which is infuriating for me.  My son and I are very close but she works to drive a wedge between us.  He's also tried to help me with his sisters but that has been an exercise in futility. My wife doesn't have an official diagnosis but our therapist (who I have met with separately several times) said it's clear to him she possesses many BPD tendencies.  I've been told until someone wants to get help there isn't much that can be done.  My wife doesn't think she has a problem.  I have filed for divorce and do have an attorney.  I'm not sure how much help he'll be given my problem here.  He is really there to facilitate the divorce obviously and will ask for a custody evaluation (which needs to be granted) to help with the kids.  I don't think he has an appreciation for how bad things truly are and how much help the kids need.    I struggle with being unable to extricate them from this insanity.  In the meantime, I need to work on the "empathy without enabling" that you suggest.  Hopefully I can continue to be "Zen-like" and not lash out at their hostility towards me. 

I know there's more in all of your posts but I wanted to respond with some answers and feedback.  Thanks so much for taking the time to respond to me.  I really appreciate it.

[Sluggo]

Sunnyalot,

I understand about he parallels.  It is almost seems like the scenes and dialogs are written out before hand and my wife and I  are just another set of actors trying to act out the play.

 It was when I started reading other stories I realized that I am not alone, others understand, and others have been through and give good through provoking dialogue and challenge one to look at ways become a more healthy person.

About the kids... .  I have found Ryan Thomas videos really good.  He was an alienated child and speaks from that viewpoint.  It wasn't until he was in his late 20s that he realized how his mom and the 'regime' (his mom's family) made him think his Dad was horrible.  He has since formed a very close relationship with his Dad. You can find them on you tube.  He is very articulate and on point. 

 

 

[sunnyalot]

Sluggo,

I watched a few of his videos and they are both sad and revealing.  I struggle watching how the kids are behaving, knowing that their behavior is directed by their mother and being unable to connect with them.  I wonder if it’s as simple as the kids seeing how she treats me and believing that’s how they’ll be treated if they don’t follow her.  It’s a fear-based defense mechanism.  Thomas relayed a story where his father was ambushed, the mother and her father screamed and yelled at him and wouldn’t allow the scheduled pick up to occur.  Then the alienating mother’s sister said to him “see how upset he made your mother, he’s awful, you don’t want to be with him, right?” and the kid says “guess so”.  It left him long lasting scars.  I hear the stories and they relate directly to me.  The problem is day to day what is a guy to do when he wife persists in creating this myth that all of a sudden dad is a terrible guy?  It’s like I said to the kids when I filed for divorce – “what choice did I have”.  We’ve been living in hell for a year.  Mom won’t compromise.  Mom spends 24 hours a day convincing me and everyone else in her world all these people are awful and the only solution is to no longer have any contact with them.  I say I’m all about forgiveness and reconciliation and learning how to work through difficulties.  Life is tough and we’re otherwise teaching our kids that when they run into problems to just cut people off.  That won’t serve you well with employers, roommates, partners etc.  You have to figure things out.  She doesn’t want to figure anything out she wants to dictate terms of how everyone must behave.  We all have to conform to her view.  And if you don’t conform you’re out – including dad.  So because I  tried for over a year and can’t live this way I filed and she says “see, dad likes his big family better”, “he’s siding with the abusers”.  There was no abuse.  She gets angry and fires off scathing letters and they’re not supposed to react.  Frankly their reaction has been very tame but anything they say or do is categorized as abusive.  The abuse is what she is putting me through.  It’s agony.  But the $64,000 question is how do I get the kids to see the light?  As long as she is there spreading lies about me and not allowing any direct communication with my kids what am I to do?  It’s maddening.

[ForeverDad]

Most of us have "been there, done that".  I too experienced the progressive blacklisting and isolation, demands and ultimatum.  Sadly, with such a aggressively determined spouse, it only delayed the inevitable.

Fortunately my son was a pre-schooler when we separated, he didn't know how to be as manipulated as older children can be.  I recall our GAL, stating years later when I was a court seeking sole custody, "You son will be okay because of you."  It was a struggle in court, the courts often default to mothers but especially to the emotionally blaming and pressuring parent.

BTW courts love counseling.  Try to ensure the children get very experienced counselors or therapists.  If left up to their mother, she will do all she can to pick gullible counselors and transform you into the bad guy while simultaneously sabotaging any positive benefits of their counseling.  Be aware.  Beware.

Due to your spouse's extreme behaviors and abnormal influencing of the children you almost certainly will need an in depth Custody Evaluation.  It is more than a few psych tests that may or may not reflect on her parenting or yours.  There will be multiple sessions with you and with her as well, both with and without the children there.  Not just any evaluator, you will need a very experienced one with a reputation for solid evaluations and not gullible or easily fooled by a master of emotional manipulation.  Repeat, a very good evaluator.  One way to get one is to build a short list of at least 3 excellent CEs then present it to court for her to select from the short list.  Almost always that approach works and the court along with her lawyer will agree those are good choices and require her to pick from your smart list.  You and your lawyer be the ones to build that short list, don't let her and her lawyer get to it first and then limit you to poor CEs.

Living in a calm and stable home, even if only for part of their lives, will give the children a better example of normalcy for their own future relationships.  Staying together would mean that's the only example of home life they would have known — discord, conflict, invalidation, overall craziness, etc.  Over 30 years ago the book Solomon's Children - Exploding the Myths of Divorce had an interesting observation on page 195 by one participant, As the saying goes, "I'd rather come from a broken home than live in one."  Ponder that.  Taking action will enable your lives, or at least a part of your lives going forward, to be spent be in a calm, stable environment — your home, wherever that is — away from the blaming, emotional distortions, pressuring demands and manipulations, unpredictable ever-looming rages and outright chaos.  And some of the flying monkeys too.

In addition to William Eddy and Dr Craig Childress, also look at Divorce Poison by Richard Warshak.  Dr Childress has a new approach to addressing alienation, categorizing it as a form of child abuse (a much better approach than the one described decades ago by Richard Gardner which did not get much traction with professionals).  It's possible that the alienation may require intensive workshops so don't expect quick fixes.  Just as the damage to the children was done over many years, counseling and recovery for them may take years as well.  Sadly.  Meanwhile, your validation of any good observations and conclusions would be very helpful for them to grasp Reality and not mother's twisted perceptions.

So don't guilt yourself over being forced to choose the divorce alternative.  You tried.  It's not your fault your sincere efforts failed.  However, do it smart.  Have a proactive, problem-solver lawyer who can handle hearing and trials at court and can build strategies that will help you to get the least unfair outcomes possible.

[Mika1739]

You have to wise up... .in your case nice guys finish last.  It's time to decide if you want to win or lose--in court each side only gets one outcome.  You have to decide if your okay losing.  If not then rise up and look at the bigger picture! Her disorder was quiet or dormant for some time and with the fight with your daughter now it is full blown and not going away.  Stop following her around like a puppy dog and being predictably sad about how she's treating everyone.  You have the duty as the father to protect your children from their mothers disease.  I'm not being inflammatory here, this is war and your children's welfare is at stake.  Go on the offense with strategy and bait her into explosive emails and incidents, lead her into events where you can predict how so she losses control, document it and use it to persuade the court.  It's like doing a controlled forest burn.  May sound cheesy but, I read the Art of War during my case and three things that served me well.  1) All warfare is based on deception. 2)Never interrupt your enemy while they are making mistakes. 3) To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands but, the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself.  Face it, your at war and there's no redos so get a good lawyer and be 20 steps ahead. 

[livednlearned]

Hi sunnyalot,

You've gotten a lot of great advice -- Dr. Childress, Divorce Poison, Splitting, those are excellent resources. I found Bill Eddy's Don't Alienate the Kids to be excellent, too.

Honestly, trying to combat alienation can feel like detonating a bomb. I felt like my communication skills became finely tuned instruments. I had to use validating questions to get my son to reflect on things he said, so he could tune into how he felt, which was truer than anything I could tell him.

Their BPD parent gets them hooked into this warring faction mentality and like my dad likes to say, You can't win a pissing match with a skunk. So you have to get your kids to pay attention to how they feel, and validating them can really help. For more serious cases, which might be what you are experiencing, Warshak's Divorce Poison has a lot of very specific phrases based on the different alienating techniques.

Is there any chance you can get the girls into therapy? Can you talk to guidance counselors at school to let them know that things are unraveling big time in the home? Do you suspect any BPD traits in the girls? What was your relationship like with them prior to the divorce being announced? If you had a decent relationship, that bodes well. Therapy may not be an option now, tho it could be something that happens as a custody issue.

I agree with Sluggo that a custody evaluation may help in your case. Any thoughts on whether that's something that could work?

[sunnyalot]

Mika,

I shared your comments with my brother and he agreed you were spot on.  My personality isn't overly confrontational, especially with my family, which is probably what has contributed to where we've wound up.  As my brother has said I would have wound up in the same spot but my being so accommodating just delayed the inevitable.  I have a lawyer and I guess I'll find out how adept his is at this.  He's the one who suggested a custody evaluation at the outset so he understands the situation.  I've spoken with a new therapist to try to get my girls in with but she said it will be pointless unless mandated by the court.  She said asking my son to facilitate therapy sessions is a bad idea.  Therapy has to be guided by the court to make sure my wife is accountable to someone and that the girls must go.  As for staying ahead I've taken lots of pictures, have lots of inflammatory emails and texts from her and have a few taped conversations of my daughters that illustrate how nonsensical their positions are.  It's definitely a good start and I have a family member helping me pull it all together.  But staying in the house (so far) and being treated like dirt, and not likely getting the kids into court mandated therapy for another sixty days or so will is and will be very difficult.  Thanks the the kick in the pants.  I am learning that I need to be more aggressive here to try to turn the tide.  Feels like climbing a mountain with an avalanche bearing down on me but I have to figure out how to get my kids back on track.  The long term consequences of parental alienation I have read are severe and I want to do everything I can to keep this from going on much longer. 

[sunnyalot]

Livednlearned,

Childress is very good and so on point with my situation it's scary.  I have Divorce Poison and am starting to read it.  My relationship with my girls was great.  We spent all kinds of time together and it was very normal and happy.  But the about face that my 14 and 8 year olds have done in the last few months is startling.  I don't know what the school can really do to help.  Childress (in video 20 of his series) paints a perfect picture of our situation.  Damned if you do, and damned if you don't.  They won't interact with me and blame me for filing for divorce.  It doesn't matter that I tried to fix it with their mother for well over a year and she didn't move one inch.  What matters is that I'm the one who filed so it gives her absolute license to paint me as the bad guy. She won't even let me attempt to have a conversation with the girls.  She either keeps them busy and unavailable or when they are home she hangs around wherever they are so I don't get a moment to even try to speak to them.  I don't think my girls have BPD traits I just think my wife is ruining them and setting them up for many difficulties ahead.  As I said to Mika with parents not on the same page a well known therapist in town says it'd be pointless to start therapy with the girls because anything said suggesting the mother's responsibility for any part of where we are would be relayed to the mother, the mother would say the therapist is bad and the sessions would stop.  Again, it's either "her way or the highway".  So this therapist said in her experience it will only be effective if the court mandates the therapy and the therapist can interact with everyone and report back to the court what she learns.  Meanwhile I need to live day to day.  I'm thinking by staying at the house I'll be able to "break through" to one of them somehow but that doesn't seem to be the case at all right now. I have to try to manage as best I can until the custody evaluation occurs and presumably court mandated therapy begins as part of that process.  I just wish there was something more I could do in the home to try to get through to the girls.  But everything I read says they are "trauma bonded" to their mother and live in fear of incurring her wrath and withdrawal of love from her if they have anything to do with me.  I just haven't read anything that would give me the tools to try to unwind this while we're all in the same house. What i've read is I'll have a chance to help them 1) through therapy when that happens and 2) when I'm not in the house and can parent them free from the absolute influence of their mother.  Ultimately I'm fearful everything I do positively for them she'll undo one she has them back in her clutches.  My father has said to worry more about myself as the kids will eventually grow up and figure this out for themselves.  But it's really hard living it day to day now and not being able to help them.  I'm going to keep at it somehow. Thanks very much for your input.

[Sluggo]

Sunnyalot,

Ditto, Ditto, Ditto. 

I share all your sentiments either before or currently.  It sounds just like my situation also. 

I am sorry I don't have any answers.  I am still struggling with the older kids 10 and older.  Trauma bonded - not to get the wrath.  ABSOLUTELY!  Heck I did the same thing when I was married... .  don't upset wife or her rage will come onto me.  I also saw I did the same thing to as the kids are doing to me. I shunned my family an the request of my wife.  I am a grown man but allowed myself to do that to. How much sadder for the kids and a kid mind.  I knew I still loved them but my wifes anger did start influencing on how I look at them and found fault.   

On the therapy.  Mine was ordered in the prelim.  We did the prelim through our lawyers.  As I mentioned before, I folded on almost everything but I did state that I wanted the kids to be in therapy.  That was put in.  However, it has been 12 months and the kids have only been to a 3 appointments.  The first 2 sessions I realized the therapist was not getting it, so I bought the Childress (mini book for therapists) and gave it to her and explained the situation from my point of view.  I was surprised she was receptive to it and read it.  Not sure if it was coincidence, but my wife did not take them back after the 3rd appointment.  I believe my wife would question the kids all about the appointment still having control over them.  It was like now they were in a psychological war field... .  getting one perspective from this T and another one from their mom.   I am not sure if that was good or not for them.  As it didn't last and we have filed contempt over wife canceling the appointments still waiting to see. 

One thing I did find helpful, it was taking the kids to other adult family homes who treated me with respect and dignity.  They could see that other people respected me.  The best encounter when I took them to see their aunt and uncle  and cousins on my wife's side.  (The aunt and uncle did not agree with anything wife was doing and my wife stopped talking to them.)  The kids asked their aunt (wifes sister)... .why are you taking my dads side.  She said she wasn't taking any sides but then proceeded to tell the kids that wife has anger issues, holds grudges, etc.  She even told them that once you guys get away from the house you will see what she has been doing. She gave props to me as a person and as a father.   

Another thing... .  I started becoming more involved in their school- in class and at the lunch room.  It gave them opportunity to see me with their teachers helping the class.  It has also given me the chance to see them during the week which I have not bee able to because of the horrible order I agreed to. 

Sunny alot... .  all I know it is soo painful and I am hoping that the judge approves the 50/50 recommendation from the evaluator. 

[livednlearned]

sunnyalot -- you're in good company here. It's awful when it's peaking like it is for you. I hope your situation turns around and you start to see things shift in your favor.

It does take time, and new skills, many that are counter-intuitive (like acknowledging that the kids are in the middle in the way that Warshak advises), or validating how the kids feel (slightly but importantly different than agreeing with their skewed reality).

You have some obstacles at the moment. In the meantime, would you feel comfortable talking to the family specialist at the girls' school to let them know what is going on? I spoke to the family specialist before I left, to give them a heads up that my son's academic standing might slide, and to ask them to focus on his emotional and psychological well-being while we rode out the divorce. That's all I really said. I think that level-headed and nurturing approach helped me when my ex showed up at school to bash me. The school saw that I focused on son, whereas ex focused on my wickedness.

I also sat down with the family specialist and my son to introduce them and we chatted and laughed about things, and he felt comfortable enough to seek her out and talk when he was feeling overwhelmed. Same with the guidance counselor.

In middle school, I did the same thing and my son started to put important pieces together. There was some parental alienation and to be honest, my ex took it so far he lost my son's trust.

Where there is a will, there is a way. The girls will probably not know who to trust, and that will hurt, but with the help of Warshak, Childress, and Eddy, you may start to see a way through that eventually brings them back to you. It does happen, tho I know the waiting and long road is painful and not anything we would wish for our kids.

[ForeverDad]

Though it may be in rare instances now, the beginnings of divorce is an especially emotional time for all, it is important that you Validate the times your children observe reality and make conclusions regarding the reality.  Validation is better than criticism over time.

Your father is correct in one respect, do take care of yourself.  Airline passengers always have to listen to practical instructions before flights... .  "In the event of an emergency, put on your own oxygen mask before helping your children or others."  It makes sense in our high conflict cases too.

You mentioned how difficult it is to communicate separately with your children.  They're faced with the worst dilemma, Side with their mother or risk losing her 'love'.  Children should not be manipulated like that.  As I'm sure you've read, or heard from your therapist, children will normally love both parents.  It is unnatural for them to hate a relatively normal parent.  By getting the kids into counseling (with a solidly experienced and not gullible counselor) that taint of pressuring, manipulation, etc will be evident.  We've sometimes referred to it as 'emotional terrorism'.  That's so hard for children to overcome which is why guidance from good counselors is so important.  It's a form of Stockholm Syndome, where the hostages over time empathize and even side with the abductors.  If it's hard on adults, imagine how devastating it is for children.

So if your options for alone time are limited, the ponder how to get more time with them.  Take them shopping, to movies, doctor visits, events, etc.

Think long term.  Now that divorce is on the table, she will be scheming to minimize the time your would get in a parenting schedule.  Strategy time for you to keep as much time as possible for you.  Temp orders are temporary for many divorce cases because they often get replaced in a matter of months in a final decree.  I recall my lawyer estimated 7-9 months.  Ha!  By that time we had only gotten the temp order, mediation attempt (fail) and barely started the four month long parenting investigation by the court's social worker done.  We still had the custody evaluation, settlement conference and trial scheduling to go.  It ended up to be 23.5 months from filing to final decree.  So... .(1) don't let anyone tell you that a temporary order means little because it's only temporary, it  can be in effect for quite a long time.  (2)  Once a temp order is in place a court will not be inclined to make major changes to it (unless the parents settle) without a lot of basis to do so.  So when you do get to court make sure the parenting schedule and custody arrangement is as good as possible.  Generally the misbehaving parent is too entitled early in a case to agree to a reasonable settlement.  Typically it's when a major hearing or trial that maybe something can be worked out.  If not, if it does require a judge to make a decision, often the judge will be "less unfair" than the obstructive spouse.

I recall in my final months with my then-spouse how she would rant and rage that I show her respect, that I was disrespecting her, yet she was the one saying she would wear the pants in the family, that I'd never see my preschooler again or maybe just a little.  That's projecting.  It got to the point where I had to remind myself that what she claimed about me was what she was doing or contemplating.  Not just Blaming, but also Blame Shifting.

[Stolen]

All the talk of therapy brought back this memory - while I pushed continually for "mandated" therapy of any sort, I was continually frustrated in this effort. The lawyer for the children only presented their "wishes", and they clearly were not interested in therapy. Somewhat perverse that teenagers were elevated to the position of informed decision-makers so quickly... .

Anyhow, the single time my daughters saw a therapist the kind, gentle doctor worked her way to asking "why don't your want to see your Dad?".   The only answer she ever got was "we are concerned he will be critical of our mother".
Trauma-bonding indeed (same as xW with her own mother, btw.)

Not that I was critical (I avoided this at all costs), but that I "might be".  And to this day, that is the extent of the explanation I have heard about why they avoid me.   

There was a plan for follow up sessions, eventually with me joining for a "con-joint" session.  Delay. Delay. Reschedule. Cancel. Done.  And that was 2013.

Whatever you can do to secure court-directed therapy, jump at that. If I knew where this would have wound up, I would have pursued that even harder. And I would have invested in a professional-to-professional session with the therapist and Dr. Childress.

[Stolen]

Childress had an interesting post a couple of days ago about a documentary being made on alienation - https://drcraigchildressblog.com/2017/02/26/erasing-family/

Direct link here: www.erasingfamily.org

[ForeverDad]

I'm right now watching the site's prior work, Erasing Dad.  I has many interviews in Argentina and references their laws which give default preference to the mothers.  I believe that may have originated with the decades old, now discarded, "Tender Years Doctrine" which presumed mothers were always the better parent to raise the children.  What their default enabled was for the obstructive parent to use that as a way to block the other parent's access and parenting.  One father said he got to see his children from only 10 minutes a week.  Another said his only contact was at school during breaks.

In the 4 minute summary of how the film was initially censored for many months, it added the comment, "We need to continue to educate the public about the dangers of parental alienation and uncover the System that makes money off of children's suffering... ."  Than resonated with me.  It was clear from the beginning that my Ex had more behavioral issues than me that directing impacted parenting.  Yet the professionals studiously stayed within their little fiefdoms of authority, the police to responding to current incidents but nothing more, hospital doctors only dealing with the immediate incident and none of the history, lawyers all saying they have to follow the laws, procedures and policies in place and as modified by prior decades of decisions and case law.  I could only think that while it was better than letting the entitled obstructive parent have total control it was only better and not really that much "in the child's best interests".

Maybe I got triggered a bit here?

[livednlearned]

Whatever you can do to secure court-directed therapy, jump at that. If I knew where this would have wound up, I would have pursued that even harder. And I would have invested in a professional-to-professional session with the therapist and Dr. Childress.

A couple of thoughts if you ask the court for therapy for the girls... .try to structure it so that you get to pick three Ts, and mom can choose which one. That way, you guarantee that the ones selected from are at least reputable and are up to your standards (perhaps a prelim interview to determine if they understand PA and/or BPD).

I found over the years that it is important to be explicit about how non-compliance will be handled, too. For example, if either parent cannot consistently get kids to T, then the other parent will take them during their custodial time and be responsible for make-up appointments.

Also, a caution. Some Ts get nervous that high-conflict custody battles means they will be subpoenaed and have to testify in court. If you want the girls to have therapy that isn't weaponized in court in some way, avoid Ts who sell services as forensic child psychologists. To keep the T out of court, both parents would have to sign a waiver saying they agree to not subpoena the T. The workaround is that a custody evaluator or parenting coordinator, if you  have those in your state, can talk to the T, so in a roundabout way you can get a third-party professional to testify on behalf of what the T thinks is going on in the family dynamic, without incriminating the T. Hope that makes sense... .