His PD mom and enabling dad invited just him out for his birthday

[TDeer]

Options? He and I both feel caught between a rock and a hard place for different reasons.

I have almost no contact with NPD BPD MIL. She's drama city. My husband only sees her to see his dad.


Does he invite a lot of other people including me to make it a big group?

Or does he just accept and go on his own and keep working on the great divide one bit at a time?


I know I have to keep doing therapy and go do something fun and engaging if he goes on his own.

[Naughty Nibbler]

Hey TDeer   

If your husbands objective is to see his dad and spend some quality time with him, then I'd say just let him go alone.  I'm thinking that the group approach might make you feel better, but it detracts from him spending time with his father.

I'd say radically accept the situation and do something fun on your own while your husband visits his parents.  Even staying home to read a book or watch a movie, binge on Netflix, etc. can be an alternative. 

[Notwendy]

I was also in this predicament- tolerate BPD mom and her wishes in order to see or speak to my father.

This is a tough one. On one hand, my father was her enabler. However, he was also the only parent I felt was really a parent to me. I think kids, of any age, hold on to that relationship if they can- especially if this is the parent they are attached to.

If he wants to go, I think he should go. In fact, I don't see a problem with an adult child- married or not- visiting his/her parents on their own. I do this with my H. For me, it is easier to handle my own FOO drama on my own. These dynamics were in place before I was married. Also, I am an individual - and can have a one on one relationship with anyone- really, so I think it is OK to see a parent on my own.

I am OK with my H doing the same. Yes, he is my H, but he is also his parents' son and it is OK if they are alone.  Maybe they have some personal things to talk about or maybe just want to be with him. I visit sometimes as well.

Keep in mind the drama triangle. At the moment, BPD MIL is playing this out with you. It is just who she is.

When my H visits his parents, I use the time to do something I want to do that he doesn't. Like watch emotional romance movies that he doesn't want to see.

[Panda39]

If your husband wants to go let him go.  I agree with Notwendy I don't see why you need to attend. Do something with your husband either before or after his visit with them.

Panda39

[TDeer]

Notwendy - how's the drama triangle playing out? Can you ever stop it?

I've read up on the Karpman drama triangle and it is basically she's playing the victim and then she gets a rescuer and the persecutor. So she's played me into the persecutor role and her husband rescues her. He doesn't always rescue her and I really respect that when he's sure he knows a plan of action, he does at least sometimes choose the hard choice of letting her be angry and he chooses his own decision instead. (i.e. - giving us her portion of the wedding money himself instead of letting her only take hers back.)


I've been trying to stay busy instead of ruminate on what she's doing that's so ridiculous when he visits. Last time he visited was on Christmas and he just wants to see his family sometimes, no matter how messed up they are.

I've gotten to the "supportive" part of being his wife, but then I get knocked off the horse. Then I have to get back up again, but it includes a lot of anger, frustration, hurt feelings, cursing (not at him) and it just takes me a while to get through my own period of anger arousal again.

We are both learning to get through that part. I am learning that this is not in any way easy for him either. It's super hard for him since his mother really seems to believe whatever web she's spinning at any time.

He's working to keep me separate from her until he can find a more reasonable solution (if ever) because he wants me to be protected from her toxic waste.

I do start to get angry because I feel left out of his BIRTHDAY. But I realize if I turn it around, they're pretty much left out of his LIFE except for holidays and I need to let him be an adult and make his own choices, although we can help each other out.

I can keep working on RADICAL ACCEPT, but does it take a decade? Two decades?  Five years? How long does it take most people to get to the point where this is a habit and they stop getting so angry?

Is that never? Do I just keep trying each time and keep going to therapy and keep working on myself so that I can be more supportive and try not to let her BS get to me so much?

He knew I'd get pissed off, but he told me anyway.

I love him and he's so smart and I know this is still killing him to see his mother like this.

Thank you for your support. When I get this hurt, I can't see his hurt feelings so much and I can't support him like I'd like to.

That's awful.

I know I have to let him handle it.

Still working on radical acceptance. That's just my husbands wacko wanda mother.

[Notwendy]

It may not be possible to see all the ways your FIL rescues or enables his wife. Where the drama triangle helps us the most is to help us see our possible roles in this, not be reactive and not add to drama. It also helps us to not take this kind of behavior personally. It isn't about us personally, but the drama in the roles that the dysfunctional person chooses.

When we grow up with dysfunction, we may not see all of it easily. A child growing up in such a situation does not experience "normal", and so doesn't recognize that there is a different way for families to interact. Your H probably recognizes the most obvious, but some is so subtle, it feels automatic to him. Children have to adapt to these things- they don't have another choice. As adults they can work on changing their behaviors- but as you said- it is your H who needs to do this. If he wants to continue a relationship with his father,then this is the terms of it. While of course, you are most important to him, a parent is very important. It makes sense that he wants a relationship with both.

One thing to explore is how much this upsets you. Yes, it is his birthday, but you do have him other days. I understand though- that you may also want some boundaries around special days- birthdays, Christmas- with your family. Because the birthday is so soon, I'd let this one go, but then, you and your H sit down together and decide what days belong to the two of you ( and your kids) and what can be with your H and her. A good one is MIL's birthday and also his father's birthday. Then your H needs to be willing to say " I want to spend my birthday with my wife, and I also want to celebrate your birthday with you"

This won't be easy. She probably likes the control. She may pitch a fit, but then she may come around. I don't know about his father. He may go along with MIL. However, he has the choice to value his relationship with his son. He could also call and say "how about the two of us get together for lunch" if mom doesn't want to go along with this. But if he doesn't have the will or courage to do this, then your H needs to be willing to stick with the boundary. That could be very difficult for him. He may not be willing to compromise on his birthday, but you still have other days - Valentines Day, your anniversary that are for you. Try to work something out where you do have your days with him, and he also can have a relationship with his parents.

If the situation continues to upset you, it may help to work with a T on your feelings and how to not let MIL upset you as much. She isn't easy to deal with, but her behavior says more about her than it does you.

[Harri]

I can keep working on RADICAL ACCEPT, but does it take a decade? Two decades?  Five years? How long does it take most people to get to the point where this is a habit and they stop getting so angry?

Hi TDeer.  Sometimes radical acceptance (RA) is a daily reality.  For me RA is not necessarily a point of no anger or hurt.  It is more a place of accepting your reality, that your MIL is mentally ill and as a result is unable to see you for who you are.  She can only see you through her own projections which are born of her own fears, insecurities and emotional dysregulation. 

Understanding how projection works will help you more easily identify when the drama triangle comes in to play and will help you with RA.  It is hard to accept reality and see all the parts of the drama triangle when things are still so personal and hurt so badly because of course, on the surface, this stuff *is* personal and so bizarre to anyone who is caught up or even on the margins of the dysfunction.  I have a great deal of sympathy and understanding for your husbands position.  Because I did have a Fruit Loop mother and an ineffective father, I have a harder time remembering just how difficult and foreign this must be for someone not born into it or changed by decades of immersion in it.  It makes my head spin trying to imagine it.  So please, hang tight, learn more about projection, keep asking about the drama triangle and perhaps for now, accept that you will feel angry and hurt but that it will get better as you keep doing the tough work.  It does take time, but again, it gets better.

I think it is wonderful that you are so aware of how hard this is for your husband and are willing to consider his needs.  Your needs and feelings are equally important though.

When I get this hurt, I can't see his hurt feelings so much and I can't support him like I'd like to.

Of course you can't, *but* you are able to recognize that and that is pretty fantastic!  I think it would be helpful to depersonalize your MILs behaviors.  Understanding BPD is not about understanding your MIL, it is about protecting yourself and those you love through depersonalization. 

Keep posting.  I think you are doing very well.  You are in a complex situation and there is a bit of a learning curve to navigating it all.

Take good care.

[TDeer]

Keep posting.  I think you are doing very well.  You are in a complex situation and there is a bit of a learning curve to navigating it all.
-----> I needed the encouragement SO much!

You're so right. He doesn't know what it's like to have had a normal childhood and not to have grown up with a BPD mother.

Husband keeps telling me not to take things personally, but I have the same problem you pointed out about RADICAL ACCEPTANCE: I have feelings. Those feelings hurt. I wind up thinking that all of this means that I'm not supposed to care. That I'm not supposed to feel STRONGLY. I'm a deep feeler. I always have been and I don't want to resent that. It's a gift to feel strongly and live life to the fullest, but at the same time I realize it can be a great burden when it hurts so much.

So... .radical acceptance is a daily struggle?

I wasn't born into this BPD-family.


How long has it taken for some "outsiders" to learn to not take it personally?


I thought she was normal at first. If I had met her and known she was ill, I think I would have been able to start this from day 1. However, it's so much tougher because she has a job and it's a good one and she's had it for YEARS. It's so confusing to me because it's not like it's an old thing. I've known her about 13 years, but I didn't know she had an illness until last year. I didn't hear of her illness until well into the midst of the drama.

How do you see clearly through any of that?

At least if it were 1. she had an illness that was obvious or my husband had a name for it right away and told me what to do about it then 2. I did the rules and practiced from day one   then 3. I let him deal with her when she was having issues instead of having tried to fix the situation    4. I wouldn't blame myself for some of this now.    5. I'd have a much easier time depersonalizing it because I'd know it wasn't my fault and that I couldn't have possibly did something better.


I know there's the 50 50 rule and this should apply here.

[Notwendy]

For many of us, our BPD moms had us confused, and most people outside the home didn't have a clue. Made it hard for us kids to get help. I also have sympathy for my father and his family. They had no idea what he was getting into. However, they say we match our spouses in some ways emotionally and also through our FOO issues.

This was a big idea for me. We were having some marital issues, my H was blaming me. I accepted this for a long time- after all- I was the one with the dysfunctional family. Compared to mine, his looked perfectly normal. He seemed perfectly normal. So it had to be me---

Until I read this and began to think- how can his FOO issues match mine? It didn't make sense to me. But the key was- his family looked normal compared to mine. Since it was the only family he knew, it was normal to him. His parents seemed normal because, they never argued ( mine did), never fought ( mine did) but the underlying reason was---- they never talked.

They had dysfunction, but it was all covert, carefully hidden. His father was prone to rage attacks. But few people ever saw them because his mother was co-dependent and managed his emotions for him. His children walked on eggshells around him. Nobody talked about anything that bothered them or would possibly upset him. So- nobody learned how to manage disagreements other than to - rage like him, or not talk at all. Those were the tools my H brought into the marriage. He would either not talk ( silent treatment ) or get very angry if I didn't keep the peace. This triggered my co-dependency traits- and the behaviors I learned from growing up with my mother, and this is how two completely different individuals from our parents recreated the same kinds of issues in our FOO's in our own marriages without even being aware of the influence our FOO's had on how we managed relationships.

Since I am now aware of family dysfunction, I can see the issues in his FOO, but he can't and they feel normal to him. Another thing that happens is that when we are back in our FOO units, we tend to revert to our coping behaviors. It really irritates me to see my H do this- jump right back into dysfunction with his family and he doesn't even really see it. But it is his issue to address- so here is the saying to think about:

Not my circus, not my monkeys!

What can you do. Look very carefully at the ideas you think are "normal" and the possibility that you too learned some coping behaviors that somehow "match" your H's dysfunction as well. This is not to blame your family. Even with the dysfunction - my H's parents are far more intact than my mother is. His mother does not have BPD and she was a more emotionally stable mother in the long run. The reason to look is to help you see perhaps why you are so "triggered" by your MIL's behavior. I would not speak to your H about his family dysfunction- my H gets upset when I do- it feels insulting to him. Instead, look at your own issues- whatever they are. These are the only ones you have control over.

One of my wishes growing up- and probably your H's too- is to have a more normal family. I know that I could achieve this by working on my part in this. By working on yourself- you benefit all of you. It would be a gift to your H as well to have a partner like you demonstrate the best of boundaries and coping skills since he didn't get to have much of this growing up.

[Harri]

Hi again TDeer.  How are you?

RA is, sometimes, a daily thing but it varies depending on the persons involved and the situation. 

Having feelings is a good thing and is a strength.  The thing to remember is, not taking it personally does not mean no feelings.  It means recognizing that your MIL and what she says and does is more a reflection of her and how she feels than anything to do with you.  When she is splitting you black or projecting, the anger, the hurtful things she says and does means that she is unhappy within her own self and, as a result of her disorder, she is unable to recognize it and deal with her feelings and so she externalizes them, usually on someone close who she feels threatens her in some way.  You were her friend prior to dating and marrying her son.  Fear of abandonment is probably high for her (just guessing here) and rather than deal with her own stuff she is projecting.

There is nothing personal about this even tho it may feel that way.  When she is caught up in her fear and the dysregulation, she is not even seeing *you*.  She can't.  Her own stuff is getting in the way.

Think of this as a boundary issue for you.  You are letting her feelings, actions and words influence you and how you feel.  If they were based on reality rather than irrational fears that would be one thing.  They are not though.  So letting her stuff in to the point of getting so upset is something you can indeed control at your end.  It takes practice and repetition.  I used to visualize myself in a clear bubble and my mothers words, hateful and hurtful words would bounce right off as I repeated to myself "this is about her not me" and things like that.  Her words still hurt but not to the point of devastating me or hurting me to my core.  Over time, it got easier and became more automatic and, while I found encounters with her stressful, the stress and minor upset was over quickly.

I don't know if the above will work for you but find something that you can you to help you keep her words and actions from penetrating you to the point of being so upset.  Remind yourself she can't really see you and what she is doing gives you insight into hwat is going on inside herself.

I understand you list of regrets and if onlys... .I get it.  What's past os past though.  You can move forward and through.

focus on projection and your internal boundaries.  You are doing well with this.  Keep posting and seeking help.  It will get easier and with time yu will begin to learn and see different ways of interacting or responding that are better for *you* and may (MAY) help to improve your relationship with MIL... .but that comes later.  for now, you have to learn to protect yourself and put her words and behaviors into an appropriate context.  Stop the bleeding is another saying and one that should come first.

Keep up the good work TDeer.

[TDeer]

I read a lot of posts encouraging those of us trying to heal to keep posting, but sometimes I just feel like I'm just supposed to stop. (@Harri)

That radical acceptance means that I just stop having to have so many needs. That I stop being so needy, that I stop needing to have others "listen" to my frustrations, fears, feelings, etc. That I stop caring what my mother-in-law thinks of me. I am thirty years old. I am married to a wonderful man a little bit older than I, and he is entirely devoted to me. (healthy relationship-wise - he and I have friends and other family, interests, etc.) We are very happy overall.

I do not have to compete with my mother-in-law, but at the same time, this drama created by her is very annoying, to say the least.


Last time my husband went to see his mother (and father), she spent time INSISTING she had apologized to me months ago. I was told that my father-in-law TOLD my mother-in-law BEFORE she sent the letter that "it didn't sound like an apology" and she refused to change it and sent it anyway.
What is she possibly getting out of this crap? Is it the attention? Is it just a blind seeking of power and control that really isn't working anyway? My husband and his father spoke when she was out of the room. His father just said "Now you see the problem, right"? She just won't back down. His father says that she just feels so strongly that she can't let go of anything. His father also doesn't want to admit even to his daughter that his wife has a mental problem, but he says things such as "my wife is easily hurt", etc.

I realize that some mothers-in-law often feel replaced, dethroned, etc, but we realize these are feelings that healthy people deal with appropriately.

I realize, even if it's histrionic (not likely because I read the main difference distinguishing BPD and histrionic personality disorder is the tendencies towards seduction. She doesn't even seem to have any interest in her own husband or anyone else in that department, which I find sad. Her poor husband.) she still needs to clean up her side of the street. She clearly does not want to. Right? I know she's sick mentally, but she could have found a way to reach out instead of so insistently REFUSING to take any responsibility for her meanness.


So... .what I'm thinking is that she just doesn't care about anyone else except herself. Right? Or she's just so blinded by her own feelings? (@HARRI) Is that what you mean? That she's so blinded and stuck in her own feelings that she can't see anyone? Not her husband, not her son, not her daughter-in-law? Not even that it's creating so much stress for those who she's supposed to care about?

Why would someone feel threatened in this situation?

My mind still goes to "how could I help"? But I really don't think I can. I tried to help her before the wedding, before all the drama, but that didn't work. I tried to find out what her issues were and perhaps make her feel included, but she just was mean to me instead. That's where all the drama broke loose. My husband and I have committed ourselves not to repeating that mistake. I feel bad because my husband still feels his own feelings of frustration, guilt, etc for having asked me to talk to her when she wasn't behaving. He just wanted it to go away and he thought since she used to listen to me, that it would work. It used to.

If only she could just do SOMETHING that would indicate ANY behavior change! (VENTING) I could work with almost anything. I really could.


My dear husband just wants everyone to get along for his birthday.


My therapist started asking me to think about
a.) what my husband wants for his birthday
b.) what my husband thinks is doable
c.) what is best for our marriage
d.) forget about his mom if I can


It's tough to give my husband peace for his birthday. From what I gather, he really thinks it's still a horrible idea to get everyone together (i.e. - me and his mom in the same group at all). He's probably right. His mother hasn't made any steps to make anything right at all.


I think we're going to do something separate with friends and maybe some of my family, but we'll see. (VERY LIKELY)

My therapist suggested an event where NO ONE TALKS, like a movie, but my husband is convinced his parents wouldn't want to go to a movie. I say, who cares, since it's his birthday, but... .he knows better I guess with his mother who is so volatile.

This is still our first year of marriage. This is his first birthday with us as a married couple. We can still have fun otherwise. (LOADS MORE FUN) It's just a shame that everyone can't just get along.





BUT, we all know that's tough. It's tough to feel that I used to really respect this woman.  







If she just won't change, shouldn't I change something? She is apparently a child on her emotional level, right?   If I had a stubborn child, I wouldn't let their tantrums stop my family from having a holiday get-together, for example. I would put that child in time-out. (I'm just realizing that my husband is putting HER in time out the best he can by limiting her ability to hurt others - and limiting her ability to contact me. THANK GOD) But then I'd also just tell the child something like "I don't care if you don't like me, you should apologize but I'm not going to wait for that. Just stop doing 'x' behavior". But then again, I'm a teacher. I'm not a parent yet and I think if it were my child I would expect a real apology AND punish the child.

So this is really the best we can do for now? Just limit her tantrums?


My husband also worries if we were to go to lunch with his parents
a.) his mom would say something nasty to me
b.) he would be ok with getting up and leaving if she really said something overtly nasty
c.) we can't seem to agree on what to do if she were COVERTLY nasty, like if she says something that I interpret (we're both women and he just doesn't pick up on the passive aggressive crap she does right away without me explaining it unfortunately) as nasty but he doesn't pick up on right away
d.) if we were to leave based on her COVERT nasty remarks, then he was almost visibly shaken thinking of how she would character assassinate when we're not around. She would play the martyr and say how much we hate her and how mean we were, etc, and he had this awful expression on his face indicating his fear this his dad and sister would believe her. She does have a way of making people believe her SOMETIMES since her reality seems so real to her
e.) How do I work on him in regards to this idea that if we even stand up and walk out and blame it on one of us having diarrhea (as to not to give her the attention by walking out and thus also removing the attention of being there - meaning setting the boundary without directly provoking her) that it's not the end of the world?
f.) It just seems like my husband needs to be posting on this board and going to major therapy to work on this, but I realize this is a work in progress for both of us. It hard not to get sucked in by her version of reality.
g.) Maybe I need to stay on the outside of the in-law bubble so that I can pull him back into reality each time he goes to see them? Maybe that's all I can do to support him? His mother likely will NEVER change. She's always been this way and she doesn't listen to her own kids or husband.

THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR SUPPORT

[Harri]

Hi again.

I read a lot of posts encouraging those of us trying to heal to keep posting, but sometimes I just feel like I'm just supposed to stop. (@Harri)

"keep posting" to me, means that you post when you feel the need to.  I thought that was understood which is a mistake on my part.  Thanks for the feedback because now I can modify what I write to people. 

That radical acceptance means that I just stop having to have so many needs. That I stop being so needy, that I stop needing to have others "listen" to my frustrations, fears, feelings, etc. That I stop caring what my mother-in-law thinks of me.

Well, ummm, no, not quite.  RA means that you accept that your MIL is incapable of seeing your needs, she is incapable of hearing your frustrations, feelings, fears, etc and that you stop expecting  her to meet these needs of yours. 

To stop feeling or stop needing things would mean you are suppressing and bottling things up inside and that is not RA. 

So... .what I'm thinking is that she just doesn't care about anyone else except herself. Right? Or she's just so blinded by her own feelings? (@HARRI) Is that what you mean? That she's so blinded and stuck in her own feelings that she can't see anyone? Not her husband, not her son, not her daughter-in-law? Not even that it's creating so much stress for those who she's supposed to care about?

Well, I can tell you my understanding of BPD based on reading I've done and some more personal experiences with defensive behaviors.  I think it is that she is blinded by her own feelings.  BPD is emotional dysregulation.  I always think of it as an emotion rises up, reaches the periphery of their awareness, they can't tolerate it (either it is too intense or they can't accept seeing their own issues or whatever) and the emotion immediately gets buried by whatever defense mechanism works (projection, denial, splitting, etc).  It happens so fast it never quite fully enters consciousness.  That is my most basic understanding.  There are variations within BPD, but I think the disordered behaviors are mostly fear driven.  Sometimes a person can have co-morbidities, like NPD, that involve more conscious intent IMO so things can get very muddy.  (please do not quote me on the above as it is just an easy way for me to understand the BPD behaviors that I have encountered).  It could be that your MIL just does not care or it may seem that way on the surface.  The thing is, we can't always know what is driving the behaviors.  All we know is that their behaviors hurt, damage and alienate and often seem very bizarre. 

I realize, even if it's histrionic... .she still needs to clean up her side of the street. She clearly does not want to. Right? I know she's sick mentally, but she could have found a way to reach out instead of so insistently REFUSING to take any responsibility for her meanness.

I agree that she is responsible for her side of the street and for cleaning up her own messes.  Her mental illness does not change that one bit.  Is it only because she does not want to?  I am not sure as it is hard to know what is driving a person's behaviors (in spite of all the assumptions I have already made  )

Or she's just so blinded by her own feelings? (@HARRI) Is that what you mean? That she's so blinded and stuck in her own feelings that she can't see anyone? Not her husband, not her son, not her daughter-in-law? Not even that it's creating so much stress for those who she's supposed to care about?

That is my opinion, for whatever that is worth.

If she just won't change, shouldn't I change something? She is apparently a child on her emotional level, right?

I wish we could fix these situations by simply changing ourselves, that would be awesome.  But we can't change someone else even by changing ourselves.  You can learn communication tools (if you want) that may lessen conflict but that mainly serve to help you stay out of conflict and keep to your internal boundaries.  Beyond that?  Sadly, no.  You are a teacher, a feeler and an obviously very compassionate person.  Your natural instinct would be to step in and do what you can to help her and everyone else.  sometimes though, the very best thing you can do for everyone is to step back and--->

Maybe I need to stay on the outside of the in-law bubble so that I can pull him back into reality each time he goes to see them? Maybe that's all I can do to support him?

Yes! though I would modify this and say that is the very best thing you can do for yourself and for him rather than thinking "it is all you can do".  This is huge and difficult so don't forget that.

I agree that your husband could benefit from posting here and some therapy.  He and you are caught up in a dysfunctional system that has existed for decades.  He is going to have to go against a lot of what his survival and gut instincts are telling him to do since he was born into that system.  What works well in dysfunctional systems does not carry over well into healthy relationships.  And change to the status quo is going to upset the system... .and you, simply by being a person from outside of the system is upsetting the imbalanced balance that has been there all along.  any change is going to be difficult... .your husband will feel anxiety, maybe panic, etc.  That is for him to work out and deal with.  You can support him and encourage him to get help.

As I was writing this, I realized you may benefit from reading some of the posts at the so-parenting and step-parenting sections on this site.  Not that your MIL is a child, in spite of her behaviors, but that some of the people there are dealing with the same issues and variables as you.  I am not saying you do not belong here as you very much do, I just wonder if those boards may give you some ideas on how others deal with similar (but different) situations.

hang in there!

[Notwendy]

That radical acceptance means that I just stop having to have so many needs.

No, you have needs and you don't have to ignore them.

That I stop being so needy, that I stop needing to have others "listen" to my frustrations, fears, feelings, etc.

You can have needs, but keep in mind that other people make their own choices- they can choose to meet your needs, or not. In addition, some people are not able to meet your needs.

For me, personally, I found that my H isn't able to meet all my needs. Not because he isn't a good person, but because I don't think one person can meet all of anyone's needs. Some needs should not be taken outside the marriage. However, for me, if I need someone to talk to, I have taken that to a friend, a therapist, 12 step co-dependency groups and my sponsor, and also posting on this board. Except for things that should stay in the marriage- it is OK to get our needs met in emotionally healthy ways.

Compared to my mother, my MIL is a saint. However, if I am annoyed at someone in my H's family, it hurts his feelings if I vent to him. He takes it personally. Keep that in mind.

While I don't have your MIL issues, I do have a similar mother. Her mental illness makes her incapable of seeing me as I am, understanding me. She is so wrapped up in her own feelings she isn't able to perceive anyone else's. She has also at times painted me as black as your MIL is doing to you. I was in a similar triangle with her, my father, and me. It wasn't like marriage- but some things were similar. I wanted my Daddy to pay attention to me like a daughter wants her father to. But my mother saw that as competition. As twisted as it is to resent a son's wife for loving her son, it is also twisted to resent a father for loving his daughter.

So I truly understand your feelings- but the person who is forced to deal with this kind of triangle is your H. I had to accept that it was my father who chose to deal with her in the way he wanted to. This is your H's battle. I think he loves you and has his heart in the right place. However, when we grow up in families like this, we don't automatically have the relationship tools to do so. The cost of standing up to my mother was a relationship with my father. But regardless, I was motivated to set boundaries with her. I didn't expect my father to react to me like he did, and it was difficult, but I still had to be the one to decide to set boundaries. I think your H will at some point as well- but he needs to find his way.

That I stop caring what my mother-in-law thinks of me.

Yes, you do and you can learn to do it.

Just like you feel, I was very hurt to know that my parents chose to "see" me in a way that wasn't true. I am actually a kind, caring, person, and I think I am worthy of being loved. But they couldn't see me. All my mother sees in other people is what she projects on to them. She can't manage her bad feelings- so she projects them. It is impossible to change her point of view. She doesn't like herself. You can't like or love anyone if you don't like yourself. So she doesn't like the people she projects on to.

You should stop caring what your MIL thinks about you because what she thinks isn't about you. It is about her. Once you can see it this way, you won't care, because, you can't care. It was not ever about you.

 

[Naughty Nibbler]

Hi TDeer:   

If I had a stubborn child, I wouldn't let their tantrums stop my family from having a holiday get-together, for example. I would put that child in time-out. (I'm just realizing that my husband is putting HER in time out the best he can by limiting her ability to hurt others - and limiting her ability to contact me. THANK GOD) But then I'd also just tell the child something like "I don't care if you don't like me, you should apologize but I'm not going to wait for that. Just stop doing 'x' behavior". But then again, I'm a teacher. I'm not a parent yet and I think if it were my child   

She may act like a child, but she isn't a child.  Treating her like a child won't fix things.  You had the best of intentions when you tried to talk to her when she wasn't behaving. You won't ever get the type of apologies from her that you would hope for.  At some point, she may forget/forgive and begin to act better, but giving you a heartfelt apology and admitting she was wrong won't likely happen.  You can choose to be the bigger person,  let it go and move on with boundaries and make it a point to not JADE with her (Justify, Argue, Defend and Explain).

One way to look at it, is that she isn't preventing you from having a family get-together for your husband's birthday, just not the one that you define as perfect/optimum.  If it's extremely important to you, to have a get together on you husband's exact birthday, then perhaps you and your husband agree that he celebrates with his parents on a different day.

Move forward with planning a birthday celebration with your husband and be thankful that you have a wonderful husband and that you can enjoy the company of the mentally healthy people who share the celebration with you. You can choose to NOT be miserable.  There can be another opportunity to have a joint celebration for something down the road.

You can't fix her.  It isn't really of any value to know the exact label to place on her. The only power you have is to set boundaries and to use various strategies to deal with her behavior.

Things will never be normal with MIL.  The reality is that you may have some future occasions with your MIL that are tolerable.  Some might even be pleasant.  It would be very rare to fix all the problems with her and have everything rosy going forward.  Enjoy your husband's birthday, without his mother.  Move forward.  There can be a new opportunity with your MIL down the road, just not now.

How do I work on him in regards to this idea that if we even stand up and walk out and blame it on one of us having diarrhea (as to not to give her the attention by walking out and thus also removing the attention of being there - meaning setting the boundary without directly provoking her) that it's not the end of the world?   

When you set a boundary, you won't ever change anything if you use an excuse to leave.  Saying something like, "It's important to me that we have mutual respect for each other.  Some comments have been made that tell me that it's not possible today.  We need to leave for now"

If you and your husband can't be united on a boundary, like leaving, when your MIL treats you badly, then you can set a boundary with your husband that you need to NOT be in her company.

  It just seems like my husband needs to be posting on this board and going to major therapy to work on this, but I realize this is a work in progress for both of us. It hard not to get sucked in by her version of reality.   

You husband has to want to work on certain things in therapy and want to interact on this board. If each of you were to be asked how much the situation with his mom bothers you each individually on a scale of 1-10, what would be each of your spontaneous answers (without coaching from the other).  Might the situation bother you more than your husband?

The Serenity Prayer is something people use to help them let go of things.  If you aren't religious, you can adapt the prayer and make it generic. 
 God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.

[Notwendy]

She's not a child, but emotionally she is one.

You can't treat her like a child, but you do need to be the adult in this relationship.

One of the best ideas I learned was about being reactive. When we are constantly reacting to someone - we give up our own control. It has helped me to learn to be less emotionally reactive. This doesn't mean my feelings don't matter. They do and so do yours. It does mean I  think about things before I react sometimes.

Boundaries are important, but also your H has to have his own. He may tolerate her behavior better than you do because- he was raised to. I agree that it would be great if he was in therapy and /or on this board- but he needs to see the issue for what it is and being raised in a dysfunctional family makes it hard to.

I was motivated to deal with my mother, but really didn't see some issues until I became a parent myself and thought " wow that was a strange way to be a parent". My mother's behaviors were presented as normal to me. Only when I experienced "normal" did I see the difference.

I know you love your H, but your main job is to take care of you. Your feelings about this. He may not be ready to place boundaries on his parents, and if you can not stand this- then it is OK not to be there with them. He probably knows how to deal with her better- he grew up with her.

I know my H couldn't stand to see how my parents treated me. He has also let me deal with it and that, for me, involved therapy and 12 step adult child and co-dependency groups- to be able to have boundaries with her. With my mother, she is more of an issue to same gender- and she tends to flirt with men. So she doesn't dislike my H. Rather she tries to get him to pair up with her against me- like she did with my father. She tries to get him aside to share "secrets" about me- whatever she thinks that is- some kind of bad gossip or something- but I don't worry about that as there really isn't any. He doesn't buy into these actions.

I think for any parent, when their child has a romantic interest, it does signify a change- the child is moving away from the parent. There is both joy, sadness, and possibility in this transition. As a mother, there is a time where you are the center of the child's world, but it would be terrible to remain this center. PwBPD have difficulty managing their emotions. Normal family transitions may be difficult for them. You've only been married a short while. Maybe see this as a work in progress that could take longer for her.

[TDeer]

Hi all

Harri - thank you!

I caught myself thinking about how she thinks she can even do this stuff to me in the first place today. I stopped and thought about your words and how I'm still letting her thoughts about herself affect me.

So I stopped myself and reminded myself that her ideas that she could do all of this to me are not about  me!

Right? I felt like  that's true, but then I realized maybe I could have done something to make her wary of doing such things to me. However, I can only control my part if the situation, and that means I can only control myself. I can only control myself not adding to the problem. I can only control not giving her more attention for her bad behavior and not letting her draw me into active conflict by just staying as far away as I can and letting her run herself in circles. It's sad really, but I can't help her.


Who could help her? She can only get help if she admits she has a problem, which will likely never happen.