Saying "no" to BPD mother who has always gotten her way

[Our abuse recovery guide]

I understand that my mother is going to use the tools that work for her. She has made a request of me that is not something I want to comply with. It is unreasonable for the circumstances. I have said no many times. However, she is relentless- using the "tools" that work for her- threats, manipulations, and being waify.

Waif is the hardest one for me. She seems so pitiful. However, sometimes it is an act to get what she wants. Often, when I give in to "waif" she suddenly recovers- with a sly expression and I know she enjoys the idea that she "got me". She sometimes seems to even enjoy "winning".

I see where she is coming from with this request, but it is selfish and not in the best interest of the people involved.

Yet the constant e mails, "please respect my feelings" "I'm not getting any younger" ( however she used these same tactics when she was younger).

It always works for her. If she didn't get me to comply, she would get Dad into it and he'd scare me into compliance. I so wanted his approval. When it came to him, I would do anything for that. But he is gone and this tactic doesn't work.

These tactics worked with him. She would constantly badger him until he was so exasperated he gave in just to get some peace. Now, she is trying the same thing with me. It's like dealing with a toddler who wants a toy at the store, but I can't put her in "time out".

Boundaries with my mother is like waving a red flag in front of a bull. "No" is a challenge to her, and she is determined to get her way.

Advice? ( no means no, it isn't going to change) Moral support to deal with the badgering? I know that if I were to give in, I would reinforce that she does not have to respect my boundaries. I am not going to do that. But then, there is the extinction burst to deal with.

[Notwendy]

I understand that my mother is going to use the tools that work for her. She has made a request of me that is not something I want to comply with. It is unreasonable for the circumstances. I have said no many times. However, she is relentless- using the "tools" that work for her- threats, manipulations, and being waify.

Waif is the hardest one for me. She seems so pitiful. However, sometimes it is an act to get what she wants. Often, when I give in to "waif" she suddenly recovers- with a sly expression and I know she enjoys the idea that she "got me". She sometimes seems to even enjoy "winning".

I see where she is coming from with this request, but it is selfish and not in the best interest of the people involved.

Yet the constant e mails, "please respect my feelings" "I'm not getting any younger" ( however she used these same tactics when she was younger).

It always works for her. If she didn't get me to comply, she would get Dad into it and he'd scare me into compliance. I so wanted his approval. When it came to him, I would do anything for that. But he is gone and this tactic doesn't work.

These tactics worked with him. She would constantly badger him until he was so exasperated he gave in just to get some peace. Now, she is trying the same thing with me. It's like dealing with a toddler who wants a toy at the store, but I can't put her in "time out".

Boundaries with my mother is like waving a red flag in front of a bull. "No" is a challenge to her, and she is determined to get her way.

Advice? ( no means no, it isn't going to change) Moral support to deal with the badgering? I know that if I were to give in, I would reinforce that she does not have to respect my boundaries. I am not going to do that. But then, there is the extinction burst to deal with.

[Sunfl0wer]

Advice? ( no means no, it isn't going to change) Moral support to deal with the badgering? I know that if I were to give in, I would reinforce that she does not have to respect my boundaries. I am not going to do that. But then, there is the extinction burst to deal with.

Sounds like you have thought this out pretty well, are headed in the best direction for you both, yet are nervous about follow through.  (Understandable)

Now you just need to go for it, and brace yourself for the extinction burst, and reassure yourself that her feelings are not your responsibility.  Yet, be kind to yourself, and take care of your own feelings. Easy said right?

I suspect there may be a huge relief at some point after surviving the extinction burst.

Sometimes, I can see that my desire to care for another persons feelings is actually a poor method of managing my own.
So I do not want the other person upset because it makes ME feel guilty.  That is MY guilt though.  It began in me, and I own that.  Better for mee to manage my own guilt, rather than "manage" someone else to not feel badly so that I don't feel guilty for "upsetting them."

Smetimes, thinking of not having boundaries as a selfish act, helps me to maintain my boundaries.  Cause actually not having boundaries, in a sense, I am "controlling" of anothers emotions, or I'm selfish in not "allowing" them to feel their pain for fear of the pain I will feel of guilt or such.

I also tell myself it is a bit Narc of me to assign myself the role of being responsible for other peoples mental illness.  It really isn't my job to ensure a person not destabilize.  So why I think it is my fault they dysregulate or such, is a bit of a cognitive distortion, a bit thinking too much of myself in a way.

Just sharing thoughts that help me keep things in perspective
Hopefully something helpful.

[Kwamina]

Hi Notwendy

Advice?

How about ignore and B.I.F.F. :

Do You Need to Respond?

Much of hostile mail does not need a response. Letters from exes, angry neighbors, irritating coworkers, or attorneys do not usually have legal significance. The letter itself has no power, unless you give it power. Often, it is emotional venting aimed at relieving the writer’s anxiety. If you respond with similar emotions and hostility, you will simply escalate things without satisfaction, and just get a new piece of hostile mail back. In most cases, you are better off not responding.

Some letters and e-mails develop power when copies are filed in a court or complaint process—or simply get sent to other people. In these cases, it may be important to respond to inaccurate statements with accurate statements of fact. If so, use a BIFF response.

And perhaps also this:

To avoid circular conversations, don't JADE - Justify, Argue, Defend, or Explain.
... .
Instead, it is recommended that on any given issue, state your point of view once and once only. Provide any clarifications that are asked for. Anything more than this is likely to be counter productive.

I know you know these tools, but perhaps this little reminder might still be helpful.

[Sunfl0wer]

Yet the constant e mails, "please respect my feelings" "I'm not getting any younger" ( however she used these same tactics when she was younger).

It is 100% possible to respect a persons feelings without any action at all.
My best guess is that you in fact are not denying her feelings.  They are just hers.  Likely she is frustrated that she is not feeling effective at getting you to share  them.

Translation:  Please disregard your own feelings, as they are irrelevant to me.  Now replace your focus on my feelings and soothing them, appeasing me, as I specify how you should do that.  My feelings are more important than yours.

So IMO, based on my made up interpretation.
To deny your own feelings and honoring your feelings, doing what is best for you, would be a most unkind thing to do to yourself.

But that is one perspective.  I'm sure there are many ways of viewing this.

[Fie]

Hello Notwendy 

Is visiting a bit less an option for you ? So you have more time in between visits to catch your breath ?
An email filter might help you also ?

xx

[GaGrl]

At some point in a process that repeats itself often, we all need some breathing room.  You might consider at what point you just take some time and breathing room for yourself -- maybe it isn't even a very long time, just a few days or a week without having to respond to her.

[Notwendy]

It's a great idea to take some time to respond- or not respond.

It wasn't a hostile e mail, but a waify one.

Thanks for all the great advice and ideas. I know what I need to do- say no. Saying yes is not good for me- or her.

It's a version of the drama triangle. She approaches the request from waif mode. She also attaches her happiness on to one thing- looks at me to do this one thing to make her feel good,  but we all know how this goes, after the one thing, it becomes another thing. She's looking for me to be rescuer. My refusal will put her in victim mode- me in persecutor role.

I'm not afraid of her reaction. I know I am not responsible for her feelings. However, we kids were put in that role- and we were expected to do whatever she wanted to keep her happy. Strange how stepping away from that is so uncomfortable. In her world it was wrong to do that, but it is the right thing to do.

[Woolspinner2000]

Hi Notwendy,

It is so hard, isn't it? Many sighs for you. The constant pressure wears a person down. Sounds like you are coming to a place of sticking with your resolve.

I had a thought while reading your post. It is the term 'self soothing' that came to my mind. I wonder if there is something your mom is trying to do, even though unhealthy from our perspective. Is she attempting to 'self soothe?' If she gets what she wants, she is finding a way to sooth herself, but it certainly isn't soothing to you!

Is there any way for her to know she was heard by you but for you to still say no?

 
Wools

[Notwendy]

Wools, I think you are spot on with the idea that she is using this to self soothe. It is her pattern. Rather than looking to herself- she fixates on the external thing that will do the job. Yet, the external thing provides a temporary relief at best. It fits the addiction model- she gets distressed- has to have something- it brings temporary relief. I watched this pattern over the years- the next vacation, the next whatever. Once she was fixated on a certain laptop. I went to the store with my father- who would get whatever she was fixated on for her (rescuer). My mother is not computer savvy and mainly needs basic functions. There was another brand- same features and quality- on sale for a better price. I suggested this to my dad- and the response- it has to be THAT one. She has sent us to the store for soup and had a fit because the wrong kind of noodles was in it. ( not a food allergy either) . Sometimes it is the actual act of doing something for her that does it. So she can manipulate people to do things for her for that.

Dad was her main rescuer for this. If he said no, she would constantly badger him until he got so exasperated, he did it just for some peace. We kids had to do this too or he would get angry at us as she would badger him till he enforced it.

When Dad died a while back, my mom had painted me black for a while. But now, I think she is looking at me to do this. I know what she is asking me for, but the nature of the request is written in a way that she is using it to boost her self esteem. I can't solve that for her. I don't blame her- this pattern worked for her for decades, but I don't want to be her emotional caretaker. I would like to have a relationship with her of some sorts- not the kind she wants, and I know she isn't going to change- but this will need upholding boundaries on my part.

I do want to let her know that I heard her - but I think a longer reply addressing that would stir up drama. It is in a way a drama bait- invitation to the drama triangle. I think a simple statement- I understand you want this but I decline will be the best route. She won't be happy, but a longer statement would be JADE.

[Sunfl0wer]

My refusal will put her in victim mode- me in persecutor role.

I think it is fair to try an empowering phrase on her:

Mom, I know you can handle this!

Without specifics, that is best non drama triangle phrase I can come up with.
Anyway, imo, whatever you say can be another version of the same
... .i trust you to make a fair decision
... .you can handle this without me
... .you are stronger than you give yourself credit for, you are always ok

[Notwendy]

That's a good idea. She often feels invalidated. Any empowering statement is helpful to her.

[Woolspinner2000]

So a good question to ask is, "How do we help them self soothe?" or by asking that question have we already stepped in to rescue them?

Maybe it is better to ask what you and I do to self soothe and gain understanding from what we observe. It really isn't up to us to get them to step into healthy self soothing (it would be nice if they were able to do this on their own!), but often I find that just grabbing on to the understanding is a lifeline for us adult kids.

You made some great observations, Notwendy! Way to connect the dots! 

 
Wools

[Notwendy]

I said no and she sent a polite reply. I somehow doubt this is the last I will hear about this. The pattern has been that when she is nice- she is usually up to something. I've been her black child. Nice isn't her normal with me. But will need to take this one step at a time.

[Kwamina]

Hi Notwendy

How are things now? Still 'nice'?

[Grey Kitty]

One thing a dear (and wise!) friend said to me helps keep replies to stuff like that in keeping with the "B.I.F.F." format:

If it isn't a question, I don't have to answer it.

Direct, non-rhetorical questions ("Will you do X" do merit an answer, out of courtesy. (Bad behavior on her part may trump that courtesy too, sometimes tho)

Much more difficult are waifish statements with lots of implied baggage around them. Pretending that anything which isn't a direct question doesn't exist when you decide how to respond really helps sometimes!

[Notwendy]

That's great advice GK

This was a request and the reply was no.

My mother tends to see a "no" as a challenge. So she may want what she asks for but she also enjoys the power of getting someone to give in to her- especially if the person doesn't want to. It gives her some kind of satisfaction- maybe it's validating in a way.

But no means no!