What becomes of the broken hearted? - strategies for recovery

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Today I feel less grief and anger and more that I just want to recover my heart from this person I am having such a nightmare detaching from, who is responsible for my pain - and then I thought - actually I am responsible for how I feel. I need to take back control of my emotional life. I have learnt that the way to do that is by talking and taking action.

Firstly, I want to send love and a big hugs to anybody who is currently suffering and has ever had their heart broken. Whether it be at the hands of a BPD or a non, a broken heart can take you to dark places. We on this board suffer as much as anybody with the added trauma our BPDs put us through. But I have also felt terrible with non BPDs when breaking up.

I believe caregivers to BPDs are extremely sensitive and many of us will be damaged ourselves. I have often thought that a support group for the broken hearted in general, like AA for alcoholics, would be such a great idea. Where anybody who is heart broken for whatever reason can go and talk about their pain. There is a need for it because some people kill themselves through the pain of grief. There aways needs to be a place we can go. We have this board and I am grateful for that.

It has been 6 weeks since I broke contact with my exBPD married lover and the things I miss most about her are:

1. Her physical presence and love
2. Sex
3. Talking to her
4. Caring about her
5. Her caring about me.

Here are the things I am going to do to get well. I am going to try to think of her as little as possible and keep myself busy. I have trips to Vegas and Amsterdam planned where I am going to see bands and have fun and relax. That will take me until Mid June and I hope by that time the desperation will be easing.

At the moment I am not sleeping so well and so I do a great deal of exercise. Even when I feel tired and not in the mood, I push myself to do it. I spend time with my friends and family and take solace in their love. It is no substitute for the big hole of addictive, obsessive, wonderful sex and love that I have lost, but it is a start.

I am also married. One of the things I am going to try to do is work on my marriage. It is very difficult because my wife and I have been living separate lives for so long and she has issues around intimacy. However, I have made a commitment to either make the relationship work, unencumbered by the pain of the affair with the exBPD married lover, or let it go. If it isn't salvageable, and I am going to give it time and energy, then I owe it to myself to have the courage to walk away.

When I am feeling pain I have learnt through AA to pray (I am not religious) or meditate. You don't have to be religious to pray. The act of saying the words has a calming effect like a mantra. The serenity prayer helps: God grant the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can and the wisdom to know the difference.

What strategies are you using for your recovery?

[RomanticFool]

Today I feel less grief and anger and more that I just want to recover my heart from this person I am having such a nightmare detaching from, who is responsible for my pain - and then I thought - actually I am responsible for how I feel. I need to take back control of my emotional life. I have learnt that the way to do that is by talking and taking action.

Firstly, I want to send love and a big hugs to anybody who is currently suffering and has ever had their heart broken. Whether it be at the hands of a BPD or a non, a broken heart can take you to dark places. We on this board suffer as much as anybody with the added trauma our BPDs put us through. But I have also felt terrible with non BPDs when breaking up.

I believe caregivers to BPDs are extremely sensitive and many of us will be damaged ourselves. I have often thought that a support group for the broken hearted in general, like AA for alcoholics, would be such a great idea. Where anybody who is heart broken for whatever reason can go and talk about their pain. There is a need for it because some people kill themselves through the pain of grief. There aways needs to be a place we can go. We have this board and I am grateful for that.

It has been 6 weeks since I broke contact with my exBPD married lover and the things I miss most about her are:

1. Her physical presence and love
2. Sex
3. Talking to her
4. Caring about her
5. Her caring about me.

Here are the things I am going to do to get well. I am going to try to think of her as little as possible and keep myself busy. I have trips to Vegas and Amsterdam planned where I am going to see bands and have fun and relax. That will take me until Mid June and I hope by that time the desperation will be easing.

At the moment I am not sleeping so well and so I do a great deal of exercise. Even when I feel tired and not in the mood, I push myself to do it. I spend time with my friends and family and take solace in their love. It is no substitute for the big hole of addictive, obsessive, wonderful sex and love that I have lost, but it is a start.

I am also married. One of the things I am going to try to do is work on my marriage. It is very difficult because my wife and I have been living separate lives for so long and she has issues around intimacy. However, I have made a commitment to either make the relationship work, unencumbered by the pain of the affair with the exBPD married lover, or let it go. If it isn't salvageable, and I am going to give it time and energy, then I owe it to myself to have the courage to walk away.

When I am feeling pain I have learnt through AA to pray (I am not religious) or meditate. You don't have to be religious to pray. The act of saying the words has a calming effect like a mantra. The serenity prayer helps: God grant the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can and the wisdom to know the difference.

What strategies are you using for your recovery?

[happendtome]

For me, keeping myself busy didnt really work as i didnt just enjoy that "being busy". Thats not probably same for everyone, but what i felt was that i needed time for myself. Being alone and thinking everything through.
It was/it is devastating, especially as its not short recovery, but its harder for me to make happy face when im not happy. I also find that being alone gives me a time to really let go. Otherwise i may just hide my feelings from myself and it may hit back sometimes later, i could also be prone to make some stupid mistakes again if i havent learned my lesson. Starting another BPD relationship maybe?

So my plan is not to start any relationship before at least 2 years as gone by. At the moment its 1 year, so at least 1 year more. Then my plan (what im also doing already) is meditation, reading books, doing nature walks etc. I may look some trip to somewhere later this year or next year. Depends how i feel.
So far my plan is starting to show that it works. Sticking with no contact and principles. I really dont feel so much pain anymore. Only thing what im afraid at the moment is that what if theres coming some setback. So im trying to figure out what to do if some kind of sudden situation may occure. I try to build my mental fortress for that occasion. That means even more reading, even more meditation.

[doy]

I have a bit of both... .i tend to seclude myself, but every other day i push myself out to do something. it both feels necessary,not particularly good . it is like dragging  a wounded body through the mud, for future's sake.
 working seems impossible, i cannot concentrate on anything. i am buying some new furniture, and I only talk to my closest.
you guys here are of big support and comforts as well.
i do make sure i eat healthy , not drink alcohol and get enough sleep.

Romantic fool, to save your own marriage while going through heartbreak seems like a lot to do at the same time. have you considered taking some time off, by yourself?maybe after vegas?  also, have you talked to your wife about her problems?  it sounds like it might be depression , but that is a long shot from here.
a few years ago i went by to costa rica, to this health retreat,  i was supposed to go for ten days , and ended up staying a month. when i came back i was a different person . To physically leave and be by yourself for awhile sure puts things in perspective.
I heard you say you never thought to find this romantic  love again since you were already in your fifties? ( excuse me if i got it wrong)
my exBPD is 48 , but looks older.he has fake teeth ( the one that you can remove at once) fybromyalgia, smokes, drinks. 
 i myself have only been with younger guys before him . i am 41.
my friend with benefits ( that i slept with occasionally before i met my exBPD)  is a 33 year old male model/ personal trainer. flawless. sexy, kind,and litterelay every woman in this town is after him . and i have been declining his calls for weeks. i am not in love with him. i'd choose fake teeth over him , anytime ( if only he didn't have BPD)
 
what i am trying to say is, even though we are shipwrecked, and apart from BPD ,
falling in love is one of the most beautiful things in life and i knod to that.  totally separate from age, appearance. it is a bit of miracle. and we all have a shot at it again, if we want to.

i can only hope i will come out on the other end of the tunnel but deep in my heart i know that life is a big adventure. someone once told me about a relationship with someone with a PD: 'they sure make life interesting don't they? and i suppose that is  true.

[RomanticFool]

Thanks Doy,

Costa Rica sounds wonderful. I might look into that!

You make some excellent points. My wife went away for 3 weeks and I thought I was going to see my exBPD but instead I ended the relationship. The week prior to that my exBPD had been a cruise and during that time told me that her husband had found out about us. Usually when she is away I ask her to send photos and take advantage of her not working with her husband every day (they have a business together), so she sent me her photo and from the look on her face I knew the relationship was over. She looked tense and troubled. She was still texting me but the steady decline in her peace of mind had started before that. I don't know what her husband found (she said she changed her phone and he had downloaded old texts that her and I had sent each other) but I suddenly felt vulnerable. When she got home she told me that seeing me at the moment was out of the question as he was watching her. That was the final straw and I walked. The fact that I did it while my wife was away told me something about my state of mind. I just couldn't be marginalised anymore. To be honest with you, I don't feel loved by my wife either but I am going to make an effort to rebuild things. We are going to Vegas together at the end of this month for my 54th birthday (still got all my teeth!).

After that I am going away by myself for a few days to Amsterdam. I do feel like I need space to breathe and consider my feelings. I have my days free at the moment as I am not working, so I am using that time to grieve. My wife knows I have issues around depression but what she doesn't know is that for the past 18 months the issues I've had, the counselling I needed, have been triggered by the relationship with the borderline. I never meant for this to happen but when my wife and I got married 6 years ago, we hadn't slept together for 2 years. I underestimated my need for intimacy and physical love. I have been foolish and people pleasing.

My resolve is strengthening over the borderline. I had a bit of a setback this morning when I realised I hadn't deleted the call log from WhatsApp. The problem with that is you can check the messaging and see whether they have been online. It said she had been online this morning at 9.15. It may have been to check if I had sent her a message... .or to talk to somebody else. I deleted all of the WhatsApp call logs with her number on them. I had already deleted her from Facebook and she asked me not to text her due to her husband (one of the things that triggered me to walk - that was our form of communication for years and WhatsApp depends on wifi - I felt she was distancing herself). However, I don't have the strength yet to block her number from WhatsApp. The last message I sent her was a more understanding one and I thought blocking her would be aggressive. People will say I am just leaving the door open and they may be right.

I rarely have sex anymore. My borderline has been my sole sexual partner for the last 5 years but to be honest the idea of sleeping with somebody without that love just doesn't appeal. Incidentally she turned 60 last year but she is sexier than any woman I have ever laid eyes on. I guess that is in the eye of the beholder. Like you, I usually go younger, but when they have that appeal they just have it. I believe we are playing out pathology from childhood and their unavailability has us hooked.

I don't know why I have got myself into this position. I need to look at it. I feel a sense of emptiness and yearning right now but unfortunately not for my wife. As you say, I need some time alone.

It is very strong of you to resist temptation. Like you, I am not interested in sex without love at present. That may change further down the line but only time will tell.

Thanks for sharing. We are all here for each other and it is a lifeline and some respite from the emotional agony.

[RomanticFool]

Hi Happenedtome,

Thanks for your message. You sound in a much healthier place than me at present.

So my plan is not to start any relationship before at least 2 years as gone by. At the moment its 1 year, so at least 1 year more. Then my plan (what im also doing already) is meditation, reading books, doing nature walks etc. I may look some trip to somewhere later this year or next year. Depends how i feel.

I think that kind of self care is exactly what is required. I have gone from relationship to relationship. Intrigue to intrigue. Have had very little time on my own as co-dependents have a tendency to do. I must take a leaf out of your book and heal.

I can already feel, despite the pain, some light at the end of the tunnel. It fluctuates throughout the day. This morning I felt desperate, then I went to an AA meeting and came on here and I feel calmer. Talking to people really helps. This site is such a Godsend. I am extremely grateful for it.

I hope that no setback comes your way and that you continue to build your mental fortress (of solitude?) and that way you will heal much faster.

[doy]

Romantic fool,
What is the nature of you not being intimate with your wife?
Is it you or her that is not interested?
Maybe too personal, you do not have to answer... But if it is her , i was thinking that maybe SHE is depressed... .?
Anyway, i totally get your depression... some peeps might disagree but i think there are very logical reasons for every human being to get depressed during a lifetime. sometimes its even necessary. I think it is a healthy sign of a human being that something is not ok and changes should be made in order to restore balance.
The situation you are in sounds to me totally logical to get depressed over at the moment.
You are human .There is only so much you can take. Intimacy , love, and a sense of companionship are very much conditions on which to build a relationship on.
You lost this intimacy with a women you felt like being intimate with but you cannot be with. and you are with a woman that doesn't fulfill those needs.
thats rough!
better to listen to yourself , because your body will protest , and the sense of getting depressed is something to be thankful for, could be much worse.

Sounds like a solid plan, Vegas w her and Amsterdam by yourself. It is the city I work in, you'll love it.

Have you considered turning of the 'read receipt' and 'last seen' status in whatsapp?
you  can roam over her picture still as long as you want , you do not have to throw her out (unless you are ready) but you won't be affected by the notifications. it helped me a lot.

My best friend is 47 and she just fell madly in love with this fantastic man , he is 52.
both had their pasts, children from former relationships etc... weird PD people they were with , sexless relationships, the whole circus. but they are now together both mentally stable , healthy , having fantastic sex. they just match.
It gives me so much hope to see them like this , i couldn't help but shed a tear at the same time . The contrast of the mess i am in at the moment is sharp.

There i am , to pieces because of a married man that promised me the world and just gave me a BPD freakshow. i have been in NC for five weeks now. He said he wanted to work on himself and be free before being with me, while i have a distrinct feeling that is just bullocks, he was just scared to leave his wife , his security blanket. And i was The Big Adventure. a women he could never dreamed of being with. he idealized me to cloud nine before tearing me down. so i do not know where i stand. I do know i do NOT want to be with a man who is this unstable.
However, falling out of love is like looking for the manual of human emotions. i do not get  myself.
We can only trust that what we can feel, and have to offer, is this ... and it is huge.
that is beautiful.

[RomanticFool]

Hi Doy,

Good to hear from you.

What is the nature of you not being intimate with your wife?
Is it you or her that is not interested?

It has kind of evolved. One aspect is a bit personal that I won't go into in a public forum, but another aspect of it is that we kind of got out of the habit. I also think that chemistry is quite an elusive thing at times. With the ex I only had to look at her to want to jump her bones. Would that have lasted if we'd married? Experience and 100% of my married friends tell me not. I'm not so sure. With my wife we would need to work on it and neither of us has. I think she is a sexual anorexic and there will be alot of fear attached to her having sex again. I know because I have tried.

Anyway, i totally get your depression... some peeps might disagree but i think there are very logical reasons for every human being to get depressed during a lifetime. sometimes its even necessary. I think it is a healthy sign of a human being that something is not ok and changes should be made in order to restore balance.

What I have, I think, is called dysphoria: "a state of unease or generalized dissatisfaction with life." I inherited it from my parents who were angry malcontents. There were happy times in childhood, but my overriding memories are tension, anger and dissatisfaction from both of them. My nurturing was haphazard to non existent at times. I don't blame my parents, they had five kids and my brother died at 17. My father has anxiety and depression which was undiagnosed back. Hubble bubble toil and trouble... .

You are human .There is only so much you can take.

Amen to that. I need some tlc...

You lost this intimacy with a women you felt like being intimate with but you cannot be with. and you are with a woman that doesn't fulfill those needs.
thats rough!

That is the perfect summing up of my situation. I put up with all the crap from the borderline because I knew she was the sum total of my intimacy. Even though our meetings were few and far between, for me they were dynamite. I try not to think about the fact that she was also sleeping with her husband. Cake and eat it... .

better to listen to yourself , because your body will protest , and the sense of getting depressed is something to be thankful for, could be much worse.

I was getting suicidal ideation when the ex kicked me into touch for a year to concentrate on drinking and taunting me. I am very self aware around this stuff but it is serious. Many middle aged men kill themselves and I don't ever want to feel that low again. I am indeed glad I get warning shots.

Sounds like a solid plan, Vegas w her and Amsterdam by yourself. It is the city I work in, you'll love it. smiley

You work in Vegas?

Have you considered turning of the 'read receipt' and 'last seen' status in whatsapp?
you  can roam over her picture still as long as you want , you do not have to throw her out (unless you are ready) but you won't be affected by the notifications. it helped me a lot.

Just looking at her picture causes me pain and anger. I don't want to know anything about how she looks, what she is doing or who with. I would block her if I didn't think it would hurt her. I know that sounds odd but is the way I feel at present.

My best friend is 47 and she just fell madly in love with this fantastic man , he is 52.
both had their pasts, children from former relationships etc... weird PD people they were with , sexless relationships, the whole circus. but they are now together both mentally stable , healthy , having fantastic sex. they just match.
It gives me so much hope to see them like this , i couldn't help but shed a tear at the same time . The contrast of the mess i am in at the moment is sharp.

There is always hope and that is a wonderful story. Hats off to them. My heart goes out to you for shedding a tear.
It is sometimes unbearable to see happiness when you feel so bereaved and betrayed. I feel your pain from this side of the pond.

There i am , to pieces because of a married man that promised me the world and just gave me a BPD freakshow

YES YES YES... .To quote Meatloaf: "You took the words right out of my mouth!"

i have been in NC for five weeks now.

In my opinion, this is the only way to freedom and eventual happiness. Anything else is opening the door again. (Maybe I will block her on WhatsApp after all). Hope you stay strong.

He said he wanted to work on himself and be free before being with me, while i have a distrinct feeling that is just bullocks, he was just scared to leave his wife , his security blanket. And i was The Big Adventure. a women he could never dreamed of being with. he idealized me to cloud nine before tearing me down. so i do not know where i stand. I do know i do NOT want to be with a man who is this unstable.

You have just described my life perfectly. Before she went into rehab my exBPD said: 'I want us to have a future.' Less than 18 months later she said: 'You are more equipped to deal with a double life than me.I cant give you what you need.' HELLO? DO YOU HAVE EFFING AMNESIA? The answer? Yes she does: Abuse amnesia. (You are right to keep away from instability. One can never count on that in life. He will alwayslet you down).

However, falling out of love is like looking for the manual of human emotions. i do not get  myself.

I have experienced losing my mother and brother. This feels very similar. But I guess it is bereavement and the same process applies.

We can only trust that what we can feel, and have to offer, is this ... and it is huge.
that is beautiful.

I feel a little bit of shame that I have sold myself so short with the BPD. I am in a high profile profession, I get positive feedback from people all the time - and yet I chose to give my heart to a waif/hermit BPD who has stomped all over it. My work here is to find out why. That is slowly becoming clear... .I'm glad you have that positive attitude. The mark of a person's character is how they recover from devastating setbacks. In the words of Gloria Gaynor 'As long as I know how to love I know I'll stay alive.'

[doy]

hi RF, no, i work in Amsterdam, I am Dutch.  Apologies for any possible typos.
i didn't mean to generalize depression ,  there can fcourse be clinical or major depression i do not know enough about that.
but i meant the kind that comes from stressing life events, death, loss, in any kind.

Your comments are sincerely appreciated. Yes, there are a lot of things in your story that resonate with mine, it is why i couldn't stop reading.
 i am sorry it got so bad as you having suicidal ideation. But i can totally understand , having been in it , that a person can drive you that far.
Some good energy to you from this side of the pond 
It is so weird. it feels like ongoing mental torture. the often spoken ' drop on the head' while we ourselves turn that tap open. Well, you closed it, i did. Hats off. but we are still on the brinks of trusting our own hands again , not reaching again for that tap. At least , that is how i feel. And part of why i am here,

losing a loved one feels similar, yes. But the difference i noticed is that losing a loved one to death felt... less personal. it is not like that person said: i don't like you anymore, so i am going to die on you.
i laugh out loud now, sorry. however in both cases it is Loss with a big L.

But really, we will get through this, i laugh about unibrow relationships right now that i once cried over.
I literally fell of my chair last night laughing with a friend about an ex of a zillion years ago that looked like Bert ( a.i Bert and Ernie ) he even had the same voice. no pd of any kind , just ... Bert. I was crazy about that guy ( i thought) , and left heartbroken , for months. Now i know this is a bit more of a tough cookie, burnt, gone bad, with mentally delusional raisins in it. But still a cookie. 

There will come a time where you will sit somewhere,  and look at this thing with this insane woman as an adventure, that you survived. An amazing adventure, that you in no way want to go back to, but in no way would have wanted to miss out on.
You will look back with a smile and say 'ey,been there, done that , got out when it got too hot. good for me'. 

[RomanticFool]

Hi Doy,

OHHHH you are Dutch? I have Dutch antecedents on my father's side, via America! I was originally supposed to go to Amsterdam a few weeks ago when my wife was on her trip. I got to Gatwick Airport and in my haste to get away discovered my passport was a week short of the 3 months required, so they wouldn't let me on the plane. However, the hotel were very good and said they would honour the booking (it was non refundable) if I returned within two months. So I shall take them up on it!

You didn't generalise about depression. My type of low level depression (dysphoria) is something I've been aware of for a while but I medicate it through exercise and doing things that get the endorphins rushing.

Yes, our stories do resonate. I have always felt that I am over sensitive and things upset me more than others and I am now starting to understand why. It seems that I myself am empathy impaired when dealing with my exBPD. It is a little bit of a startling discovery to be honest.

It does feel like mental torture. Perhaps my own emotional regulation is faulty too. I know when I felt shut out by my BPD that I got a level of anxiety I found difficult to control. I think the important thing is to learn here so as not to repeat the same behaviour next time. The healthier I am the less chance I have of falling for another BPD.

You are right about bereavement. In fact that would make a great comedy sketch. Somebody who takes it personally when somebody dies. Sounds like a Bill Hicks set... .

Did your unibrow lover Bert know that he looked like the guy from Bert and Ernie? I have a friend who looks like Prince Charles, except he has a shaven head!

It is funny to think of all those ex partners that we felt devastated over and cried and cried over and now feel indifferent. I had a dream about my ex girlfriend last night who wanted to marry me when I was 32. In the dream she had a child who she put on my lap. He was the size of a baby but had the face and hands of a man. It was like a David Lynch movie.

You know with my exBPD - over whom I am spending hours and hours grieving - I have already detached once some years ago. As soon as she came back into my life I developed abuse amnesia. Go figure as they say in America.

I hope by the time I am in Vegas or Amsterdam, I will sit in a cafe somewhere and think what an idiot I was to recycle myself. I don't regret meeting her originally, but the relationship should have stayed in the past where it belonged.I got out when it went decidedly cold!

I hope you continue to feel better on a daily basis.

[doy]

Thank you, i hope so as well.
The funniest things. I see the sketch too. Walking away insulted. How dare you... .just do that dying stuff somewhere else, in your own time.
Baby dreams hmmm... I once read babies stands for the innocent part of you. With big manly hands. David lynch yisss ! 
Weird i keep having dreams of losing my passport or thinking i forgot it , and then find it again.

Bert didn't know he looked like Bert. He started plucking the middle part, maybe unconscious. I didn't mind the middle part, but then again i didn't mind the voice either. Probably infatuation phase.

How long did you detach from your exBPD before she spinned the wheel again?
I know that anxiety very well... with my last BPD one , was the first time that i knew what he was doing and i wouldn't step in the trap.  I totally ignored his behavior. i just talked when i had something to say funny , sweet or just ...   and if he would shut me out i would do my own thing. I didnt let him get my attention in that way but it took all i got to stay myself.
But fact is, with people that are mentally healthy this behavior does not exist. It should never exist , its abusive. Still takes me some time to let that sink in .

About empathy, what do you mean? You do come across as being an empathic person.
When i am angry or when i perceive someones emotions to be unreal i can lack empathy too. But i think that is quite normal tbh. It is funny that i was in a relationship with a narcissist and a borderliner. (Apart from that a few wonderful long relationships with healthy men, in my defense.) The two disturbed ones are the only ones who pointed me at the fact i can ' zone out' ... .i just felt something was 'off', or fake. And couldn't even listen anymore... .couldn't put my finger on it but my brain just did it this way.

And yes i do think we will feel that indifferent way about them , at some point in time. i know you have been in it for awhile. But to your benefit you broke up a lot of times before already, so you already have been through the script. Its half the grief.
I wish you dearly the moment in the cafe. May it come soon. Stay well. 

[RomanticFool]

The funniest things. I see the sketch too. Walking away insulted. How dare you... .just do that dying stuff somewhere else, in your own time.
Baby dreams hmmm... I once read babies stands for the innocent part of you. With big manly hands. David lynch yisss !  
Weird i keep having dreams of losing my passport or thinking i forgot it , and then find it again.

I don't know if you ever watched The Sopranos? There were always the most fantastic dream sequences in that show. I think Dr Malfi was a Jungian psychiatrist. I often dream weird too. Coincidence about the passport dream!

How long did you detach from your exBPD before she spinned the wheel again?

It was about six years. She contacted me out of the blue. When we broke up before, her husband had contracted throat cancer and I felt she needed space to deal with that. Then six years later, the proverbial bad penny turned up. I was absolutely delighted. I was feeling lonely in my marriage and the woman who just happened to be one of my major loves in life came to save me - YEAH RIGHT! I should have run a mile! I have known her for 14 years but we have been involved with each other for 8 years in two segments.

I know that anxiety very well... with my last BPD one , was the first time that i knew what he was doing and i wouldn't step in the trap.  I totally ignored his behavior. i just talked when i had something to say funny , sweet or just ...  and if he would shut me out i would do my own thing. I didnt let him get my attention in that way but it took all i got to stay myself.
But fact is, with people that are mentally healthy this behavior does not exist. It should never exist , its abusive. Still takes me some time to let that sink in .

That is like playing a psychological game. I tried it many many times with the ex over the years, but when it came to psychological warfare ie Silence, painting me black and devaluing, she was in a league of her own.

About empathy, what do you mean? You do come across as being an empathic person.

I was talking to Skip about empathy and I observed that when I was emotionally engaged I lacked empathy. He said many of us who get involved with BPDs and NPDs are empathy impaired when emotionally engaged. Just like our partners. When I am calm, I have a healthy empathy level, like now.

When i am angry or when i perceive someones emotions to be unreal i can lack empathy too.

This is what I mean exactly.

But i think that is quite normal tbh

I am becoming more and more foggy about what normality is.

It is funny that i was in a relationship with a narcissist and a borderliner. (Apart from that a few wonderful long relationships with healthy men, in my defense.) The two disturbed ones are the only ones who pointed me at the fact i can ' zone out' ... .i just felt something was 'off', or fake. And couldn't even listen anymore... .couldn't put my finger on it but my brain just did it this way.

I have come to the conclusion that there is something in me that attracts BPDs and NPDs.

As you are Dutch I will use the wonderful Rutger Hauer as an example. Have you seen the movie BLADE RUNNER? Why does Roy the replicant (Rutger) save Deckard (Harrison Ford) from falling off the building? Because he knows he's a replicant. In the Director's Cut of the movie, the final realisation of Deckard is that he has been hunting and killing replicants all this time - and guess what? He is one!

And yes i do think we will feel that indifferent way about them , at some point in time. i know you have been in it for awhile. But to your benefit you broke up a lot of times before already, so you already have been through the script. Its half the grief.  

You are correct about that. I've got the t-shirt!  

I wish you dearly the moment in the cafe. May it come soon. Stay well.

Thank you, Thank you, Thank you! To quote Vinnie Jones in Lock Stock And Two Smoking Barrels:

It's been emotional

[Kelli Cornett]

Romantic fool, how does your wife feel about this affair you've had with your ex BPD?

If you were my partner it would have broken my heart to know I was your wife but yet your yearned and pursued another... .

Do you think she feels about you like your feel about your married ex BPD?

[RomanticFool]

Romantic fool, how does your wife feel about this affair you've had with your ex BPD?

She doesn't know about it. In fact I wondered whether she was having an affair herself such was the lack of interest she has had in me romantically. Our relationship is like we are friends rather than partners.

If you were my partner it would have broken my heart to know I was your wife but yet your yearned and pursued another... .

If she'd ever found out we wouldn't be together. The behaviour is morally reprehensible, I admit. I don't want to break her heart. However, we haven't had sex for 8 years. What would you do in my position? We should never have got married.

Do you think she feels about you like your feel about your married ex BPD?

No. My relationship with my ex was very sexual, so I know she doesn't feel that way. My wife has BPD traits too. I don't know if she is capable of being in love. I don't think she ever has been with a partner. She describes herself as a sexual anorexic.

[doy]

RF i read your last post , the ' the problem is you' one. i walked to the kitchen for coffee, came back and cannot find it anymore.
What i wanted to say is WOW. Your honesty and vulnerability is deeply moving. Thank you for sharing this.
It is inspiring too , to take a closer look at myself. will try and come back to that later. If i dare

I was once in a taxi-van with a bunch of strangers in the mountains, on our way to some ski village in Swiss. Right before we went into a long mountain tunnel i said : ok , everyone has a chance to confess his deepest secrets,  in the dark. When we come out of the tunnel , time is up, and nobody will ever mention anything again . Everybody was very open once we could't see each other anymore. It was hilarious, the things that came out. And real. In a way reminds me if this.

I have seen some Sopranos yes, i think it is very well put together.

When i read your post i tend to think oow, yess. We are all a mess, kind of.
I recognize myself in a lot of what you write,
Confronting about the emotional equivalent mate.
But can't it also be true we desperately are looking for our emotional equal and refuse to recognize when we already saw that someone isn't?

Although 47, i saw him as a kid. In a lot of ways i adapted my communication... and was frequently stunned by the egoism... it felt to me he merely saw other people as instruments. He has a son11 , where he doesn't connect with. He never wanted kids, and regrets it deeply. He takes care of the boy's needs, but mainly leaves it up to his wife. I suspect the boy also to be BPD since he is depressed, hardly has any friends and recently told my ex he felt like he is nothing . My exBPD wanted me to meet his son but i declined. I felt terrible enough for him and then having to meet me, in the position of his fathers's lover. it surely wouldn't contribute to his stability., so i wanted to wait at least for 6 months. At least glad i did.

ow sht. And when i read the part i just wrote, again , i describe my mother 1:1.
I grew up with her, and kind of was her life partner  My three brothers grew up with my dad. But my middle brother and me took on the role of my mother's partner's, in emotional & financial ways. I can say out loud that it left him and me with some scars.

Ok enough for now... .have to get out of the house for a bit . A lot to think about. Thanks RF again , for your openness. Have a great day ( or night?)

[RomanticFool]

Hi Doy,

Thank you for your kind words. I just checked the post and it is still there.

Self honesty is the only way to go with this stuff. I can kid myself for the rest of my life that it's them and not me. There is an expression in AA which I love: 'When you point the finger at someone there are 3 pointing back at you.' The only way to heal is to look at my part in things. I have no control over others. I am powerless over people places and things.

Your honesty session is interesting. We all go through our lives justifying and minimising our own behaviours because we are the heros in our own films of life. I just told a friend of mine who has NPD traits by his own admission, and I just told him what I had discovered about myself and he replied; 'What a load of boll*cks.' Denial is there even among the enlightened.

As I said in my post. My behaviour only really surfaces when I'm anxious or stressed, so it was hard for me to see. But my emotional dysregulation under duress is strong.

Interesting what you say about your ex because that is the way my mother was with my father. He cannot cope with life since my mother died because she did everything. Including bullying hin into facing life! She was like that with me also. Sounds like the relationship with our mothers is the key here.

I just booked my hotel to Amsterdam, arriving June 9th. Can't wait to get away and relax. It's Iggy Pop in Vegas first. My new passport arrived today so I won't he turned back again!

Have a great day. I think London is 1 hour behind Holland so it is daytime here as I write.

RF

[RomanticFool]

Doy,

I forgot to address the most important point in your reply:

When i read your post i tend to think oow, yess. We are all a mess, kind of.
I recognize myself in a lot of what you write,
Confronting about the emotional equivalent mate.
But can't it also be true we desperately are looking for our emotional equal and refuse to recognize when we already saw that someone isn't?

For me this is the crux of my issues - and perhaps all of us - we have this idea that when we bond with somebody they must be our soulmate because it feels soo good. There is an expression in AA, "Feelings are not facts." That slogan is very much helping me to get through at the moment. Just because I feel like I will die if I can't be with this woman, touch her, kiss her, make love to her, it must be true. But as I read in the literature here, she is the last person on this planet I should be with. For 8 years over a 14 year period she has been running away from me. She even asked me to buy her a ring, which I did, it was a butterfly which signified to me that she was evolving out of her chrysalis and finding herself - with me. She absolutely loved it, but I suspect for a different reason. I think it signified to her that she was a wounded butterfly and her Knight in shining armour had come to rescue her. Sir Galahad was here - but she still wasn't going to commit to him. I think that sums up the paradox in a BPDs mind and just about every person in another relationship who has no intention of leaving their partner. As Skip put it, I was the third leg on her stool.

I think the reason she never entered into a discussion about leaving our marriages is partly because she didn't want to but I suspected she knew I may have had the strength to go through with it if we were serious about each other. The reason why she knew I wasn't playing around is due to the lack of intimacy in my relationship. As far as I know she was still sleeping with her husband all through our relationship. So we were in different situations. She was more emotionally connected to her relationship. Sad but true.

It seems from the quote above that we are all looking for our emotional equivalents. But now that we know why does it make a difference? The feeling that somebody feels so right is now for me a red flag.

[RomanticFool]

Gremlins in the works Doy, meant to post this all as one post.

Although 47, i saw him as a kid. In a lot of ways i adapted my communication... and was frequently stunned by the egoism... it felt to me he merely saw other people as instruments. He has a son11 , where he doesn't connect with. He never wanted kids, and regrets it deeply. He takes care of the boy's needs, but mainly leaves it up to his wife. I suspect the boy also to be BPD since he is depressed, hardly has any friends and recently told my ex he felt like he is nothing . My exBPD wanted me to meet his son but i declined. I felt terrible enough for him and then having to meet me, in the position of his fathers's lover. it surely wouldn't contribute to his stability., so i wanted to wait at least for 6 months. At least glad i did.

Well done you on thinking of his son, which sounds like more than he is doing. I had a relationship with a woman who had 2 sons and after she cheated on me, it was really hard to know what to do about her boys. I kept in contact with them, but not her, on Facebook and they eventually drifted off. They are still on my FB but we never speak. One has to be very careful where kids are concerned, which you clearly are doing. It sounds like your ex needs a literal caregiver/caretaker. Emotional dysfunction and chaos is how it reads. Hope you stay out it!

[doy]

Oh London! I thought you were from the US.
 
Hah... her knight... .It seems she was shamelessly living in two worlds no?
What you say about her and you being her saviour, it is so similar.  Mine was holding his hands up in the air while desperately saying he 'was so lonely' and ' had so much love to give and nowhere to put it' (remember this is a married man and yes, they did have sex).
And i was standing there blinking , looking for my super girl cape to save this poor guy from the depth of depths.
Never gave him any ring or anything though i did take him on an trip to Bali. Business class.
I had just signed quite a big royalty contract and i just... thought... i would make the biggest ass of myself possible. I did that with glitter.
He broke up with me right after we returned. My feeling is his wife (who knew about us) didn' t accept it any longer and he had to stop playing in the garden with his newfound friend.

Your long post went through my mind a lot today. I think awareness is incredibly important in dealing with these issues and you seem to do it so well.
I managed to work through some just by being aware ... but like you , not there yet. Funny when you say we are all our own heroes and tend to deny.
It is true , we are the wounded crippled limpies that crawl out the back door but we also are those heroes i think.
I tend to be a bit careful in conclusions about myself as for now. There is a lot i am not sure about yet.
I do know I have commitment issues, and in stress i seclude myself and can get really anxious. Mainly my fear is I loose myself in the relationship and always wonder what i would have been without, free.
It's not them, i am the one that closes myself in.
I never cheated on my partners . But every time after four , five, six years i lost my interest in sex and i take it out on myself.
My energy goes way down My feet point to the door but still i stay. I think i am terribly afraid of monotomy.
I am also terribly afraid someone to get bored with me, and i am very sensitive to perceived signs.
Eventually , i fall in love with someone else and that makes me leave. Or i choose someone ( emotionally) unavailable to chase.
I'd rather not. My 11 year relationship was absolutely dreamy... .healthy. I met him in school . we fell head over heels. mutually, equally. We started a company together. He is an energetic, kind , empathic. Crazy creative man.  Crazy in a good way, that is. There were no games, no real issues , we had occasional fights but like once every two months. We just mainly loved to love and make things together. And i still do. But still i fell out of love?
He is still my best friend, but he is not the only one that is hurt by that. I beat myself up about it, still.

I have heard from former partners that they were never really able to ' reach' me.
That hurt a lot because i really don' t know what i do that makes them feel that. I Tend to take the role of the hero, the saviour. The one that protects them and no matter what , makes them laugh. My whole family jokes, i grew up with laughing grief away.

You said you learnt in AA ' feelings are not facts' I agree, it just makes me wonder that if you know that 'having to be with a person ' is just a feeling, not a fact... what happens if you apply that to dysphoria?
Just curious, because i know it helps me sometimes to look at myself in the third person, like: this is just J that feels very sad. Just feelings that roam the body, nothing more than a runny nose.

[RomanticFool]

Oh London! I thought you were from the US.

I was born in the USA (I can hear Springsteen) but am English.

Hah... her knight... .It seems she was shamelessly living in two worlds no?

In her last message to me she said I was more cut out for the double life than her. I think that is called re-writing history.

What you say about her and you being her saviour, it is so similar.  Mine was holding his hands up in the air while desperately saying he 'was so lonely' and ' had so much love to give and nowhere to put it' (remember this is a married man and yes, they did have sex).
And i was standing there blinking , looking for my super girl cape to save this poor guy from the depth of depths.
Never gave him any ring or anything though i did take him on an trip to Bali. Business class.
I had just signed quite a big royalty contract and i just... thought... i would make the biggest ass of myself possible. I did that with glitter.
He broke up with me right after we returned. My feeling is his wife (who knew about us) didn' t accept it any longer and he had to stop playing in the garden with his newfound friend.

I was her Knight emotionally. I think she was probably just bored. You did alot more than I ever did with my ex. Never went abroad with her. Went to a few gigs and restaurants. Otherwise stolen moments in hotel rooms. Breaking up with you after taking him away is cruel. Self self self!

Your long post went through my mind a lot today. I think awareness is incredibly important in dealing with these issues and you seem to do it so well.
I managed to work through some just by being aware ... but like you , not there yet. Funny when you say we are all our own heroes and tend to deny.It is true , we are the wounded crippled limpies that crawl out the back door but we also are those heroes i think.

You do have alot of self awareness I can tell. We all see ourselves as the good guys, even when we are bad. I know I do. Playing the victim often makes me more heroic in my own eyes. In others I just seem deluded.

I tend to be a bit careful in conclusions about myself as for now. There is a lot i am not sure about yet.
I do know I have commitment issues, and in stress i seclude myself and can get really anxious. Mainly my fear is I loose myself in the relationship and always wonder what i would have been without, free.
It's not them, i am the one that closes myself in.
I never cheated on my partners . But every time after four , five, six years i lost my interest in sex and i take it out on myself.
My energy goes way down My feet point to the door but still i stay. I think i am terribly afraid of monotomy.
I am also terribly afraid someone to get bored with me, and i am very sensitive to perceived signs.
Eventually , i fall in love with someone else and that makes me leave. Or i choose someone ( emotionally) unavailable to chase.
I'd rather not. My 11 year relationship was absolutely dreamy... .healthy. I met him in school . we fell head over heels. mutually, equally. We started a company together. He is an energetic, kind , empathic. Crazy creative man.  Crazy in a good way, that is. There were no games, no real issues , we had occasional fights but like once every two months. We just mainly loved to love and make things together. And i still do. But still i fell out of love?
He is still my best friend, but he is not the only one that is hurt by that. I beat myself up about it, still.

I have heard from former partners that they were never really able to ' reach' me.
That hurt a lot because i really don' t know what i do that makes them feel that. I Tend to take the role of the hero, the saviour. The one that protects them and no matter what , makes them laugh. My whole family jokes, i grew up with laughing grief away.

This is all excellent self awareness and I am sure it has not escaped your notice, much of it is BPD traits. I think deep down you probably knoww hat is really going on with you from coming in here, just as I have discovered.

In AA, I have learnt no holds barred honesty is the only way to get well. As Skip says, most of us have something going on but we are all sub clinical ie not bad enough to be diagnosed as BPD, like most of our partners. It is my conjecture that we have the same emotional noise going as a BPD but our dysregulation may not be as faulty and those of us here are open to doing work on ourselves. Skip says most of us will have impaired empathy due to the emotional noise ie depression, anxiety or some emotional/behavioural dysregulation.

You have similar patterns in relationships to me. Crazy in love and then bored. I have been that way most of my life. I actually wonder whether this is the human condition for most people. But if we have BPD or NPD traits, then these feelings will be more pronounced. We have an emotional disorder which attracts us to other emotionally disordered people. I am either so in love that I will die if I don't get my love fix or bored. Not much goes on in the middle for me. Your healthy ex sounds like a wonderful guy.

You said you learnt in AA ' feelings are not facts' I agree, it just makes me wonder that if you know that 'having to be with a person ' is just a feeling, not a fact... what happens if you apply that to dysphoria?

The way I felt about my exBPD is basically sex and love addiction which incorporate co-dependency. Add to that the triggering of my Abandonment fears and I really was in trouble. That is why i had to walk. She was sending me to my own private hell. Or I was sending myself there by being with her.

I do alot of exercise when I'm feeling low. I lifted weights and did a zumba class at the gym today (1 of only 2 men in the whole class!). I also play football on Sundays. That is my medication. Exercise puts my mind and body in good order. My spirit is looked after by AA and coming on here.

Just curious, because i know it helps me sometimes to look at myself in the third person, like: this is just J that feels very sad. Just feelings that roam the body, nothing more than a runny nose.

That sounds like a form of meditation. I truly believe in the aphorisms, "What doesn't kill you makes you stronger" "Time heals everything" and "The best medicine of all is a well lived life" (It's really 'the best revenge" but I don't feel like I need revenge anymore). I feel like I need to let the light in... .

[doy]

Those are good ones.
yea ,
I feel i had to fill gaps so much when i was young that i keep filling that spot, in a relationship , in life. to be where i am 'needed'. i am a good wing woman, but i do not like that. i want my equal.

Well that is why i am a bit careful in labeling, those things i was talking about could label as BPD traits, but also fit ADD, or high sensitivity or just a classic introvert.
I am not angered easily, have a lot of patience. I am loyal , to my friends and family, i have a very close bond with them. Funny thing my friends don't have that feeling that they can never fully reach me. I share everything with them. the anxiety i feel in a relationship i don't feel with them .
I have a strong sense of self. and am not prone to any kind of addiction. i have a stable mood generally.
I think i am a good person but don't feel like i am special or entitled.
I like to be by myself and in nature. And I never get bored when i am alone.
So, maybe i am in introvert that is just not fit to be in a relationship? maybe... .but  the label is merely a color given. I should work on the things i encounter.  And the latter is a bit of an easy way out,
The why's behind my behavior.
I know i like myself better when i am not in a relationship. I am more sociable, more focussed and my attention goes to the whole world instead of one person.
Yet, i'd like to share the gems of life with that one special person, and physical intimacy is just one of them.
I find it very hard to combine those two. 

[RomanticFool]

I feel i had to fill gaps so much when i was young that i keep filling that spot, in a relationship , in life. to be where i am 'needed'. i am a good wing woman, but i do not like that. i want my equal.

You are a natural caregiver and that is a wonderful thing to be in a good relationship. So long as you don't forget about your needs too. Equality is everything in a good relationship.

Well that is why i am a bit careful in labeling, those things i was talking about could label as BPD traits, but also fit ADD, or high sensitivity or just a classic introvert.

I don't like labels either. Interestingly enough my ex said exactly that to me when I labelled her a BPD. She said she 'a complicated person' but I completely denounced her as a classic BPD in denial. I sometimes think any symptoms could apply to anybody if you catch them on a bad day.

I am not angered easily, have a lot of patience. I am loyal , to my friends and family, i have a very close bond with them. Funny thing my friends don't have that feeling that they can never fully reach me. I share everything with them. the anxiety i feel in a relationship i don't feel with them .
I have a strong sense of self. and am not prone to any kind of addiction. i have a stable mood generally.
I think i am a good person but don't feel like i am special or entitled.
I like to be by myself and in nature. And I never get bored when i am alone.
So, maybe i am in introvert that is just not fit to be in a relationship? maybe... .but  the label is merely a color given. I should work on the things i encounter.  And the latter is a bit of an easy way out,
The why's behind my behavior.

I am normally, loving and empathic towards people. It goes back to being emotionally triggered. It had been like the Chinese Water Torture with my exes silences and I snapped. I thought she was trying to elevate her behaviour to some kind of mysteriously enigmatic level. I had no right to do denounce her like I did, I can see that now. I never normally speak to anybody like that. But I was impaired empathically due to anxiety. That doesn't on its own mean I have BPD traits - but the bigger picture ie emptiness, boredom, chaotic love relationships (interestingly, not in my friendships), anger, empathic impairment under stress - means there are behaviours that need examination. I have discovered that there are traits in me - You are different to me and may not have the same issues - However, I am nowhere near being a fully fledged BPD or NPD.

I know i like myself better when i am not in a relationship. I am more sociable, more focussed and my attention goes to the whole world instead of one person.

Yes, we can get very insular in relationships. I try not to do this as my friends are very important. They will be there long after the relationship goes South.

Yet, i'd like to share the gems of life with that one special person, and physical intimacy is just one of them.
I find it very hard to combine those two.  

I WANT the intensity I had with my ex - I live for it. I believe it is possible to have that with a more healthy person. The question is can it be sustained? I think if you meet somebody who really floats your boat it can last. I also believe I am healthy enough to make it last in the right relationship.

There also have to be shared interests. I have a wide range of interests from cinema, theatre, music, sport, art, philosophy, poetry, etc. Because I work in the arts it would probably be tricky for me to be with somebody who has no interest in the arts at all.

There has to be passion from the outset - and it has to equal. Too many relationships have one person loving more than the other - Equality is the answer.

[doy]

In the basics we all have a bit of everything. I read somewhere we even need to have a healthy level of narcissism for our emotional health. It is only when it grows a hunchback we call it a PD.
I do think your ex knew her behavior was killing for you and that she had a problem. however when you respond with anger it is very blurring for her ( and you) to see the problem.it is like yours merges with hers, Did she ever talk about what the relationship with her husband was like?
I also think you are healthy enough to make it last in the right relationship .
You are self aware, maybe a little too much to the negative side of yourself sometimes . I would also like to hear what you truly like about yourself.
aaarhg the mysterious enigmatic level silence what a torture it must have been for you. And what a whoopie cushion.
Did you ever use it to get back at her?

[RomanticFool]

In the basics we all have a bit of everything. I read somewhere we even need to have a healthy level of narcissism for our emotional health. It is only when it grows a hunchback we call it a PD.

Yes, I agree. I also read somewhere that you need a healthy level of psychopathy to detach in certain professions, such as doctors. If they went around crying over every patient that died, they'd be burnt out in a week.

I do think your ex knew her behavior was killing for you and that she had a problem. however when you respond with anger it is very blurring for her ( and you) to see the problem.it is like yours merges with hers,

This is exactly the dynamic we played out. I wish I had been less angry with her. Having said that, some of the things she did would make a saint angry and when she let it slip that she had been to a gig with another man, just after she came out of rehab and we had reconnected, it felt like a punch in the stomach. She used to call me angry even when I wasn't. That is the over sensitivity of a BPD but also my own lack of empathy because of my anxiety around the relationship.

Did she ever talk about what the relationship with her husband was like?

Yes: She told me a great deal about when they met at college. I don't want to put too much detail on a public forum, but suffice to say it was a love match and they had children. However, she says he has autism and hardly ever speaks to her (they work together) throughout the day. The way she tells it she is a virtual prisoner. The flip side is that she has severe depression and he has been her caregiver. Having said that, he didn't step in when she was drinking alcoholically and according to her, he told her that he prefers her when she drinks. Now, she is clearly only telling me selected highlights. I always told her she was the love of my life. She never once said it back . She did tell me she loved me and in the seduction/clinger phase of the relationship (as defined by this article https://bpdfamily.com/content/how-borderline-relationship-evolves) she always used to want me to tell her that I belonged to her. This diminished once we got to the devaluing/hater stage. The simple truth is her husband is the love of her life. She adores her kids (one of them lives at home and has BPD traits and addiction issues) so she was never going to be with me. Ever. I can see it plainly now with distance.

I also think you are healthy enough to make it last in the right relationship

I agree.

You are self aware, maybe a little too much to the negative side of yourself sometimes smiley. I would also like to hear what you truly like about yourself.

I am in a profession where I get a great deal of adulation. I have core self esteem which used to sit alongside low self esteem, but not so much anymore. It's tough to say what I like about myself. I like the fact that I have passion, for my work, for love, for friendships. I don't do anything by halves. Many people have said that I am an inspiring person to be around. That is always good to hear. Same question to you. What do you like about yourself?

aaarhg the mysterious enigmatic level silence what a torture it must have been for you. And what a whoopie cushion.
Did you ever use it to get back at her?

There is an article of this site that says silence is worse than verbal abuse and I totally believe that. She withdrew constantly. She would say that she couldn't text as much as me as her husband was watching her, which was probably true but was also a convenient excuse. I was too much like hard work for her. She just wanted somebody to care for her. To get the love and attention that her husband wasn't giving her, not make demands on her like I did. I told her if she wanted a slightly detached love affair she had picked on the wrong person. I am fire not ice.

I am too much of a communicator to not talk. I tried it but could never sustain the silence. It was too painful for me. She was expert at it and much more introvert than me. I am more outgoing than her. I think that was actually what she liked about me.

[doy]

I laughed out loud at your: 'i agree.'
The best affirmation.
Interesting about he psychopathy in doctors... True i guess. We get our lives saved because of someone else's pshycopathy. 

I was wondering how her BPD displayed in her marriage. But i guess that is very hard to tell from the censored info you got from her about them.
However, i don't think her husband is her true love. You do not speak about your true love as being in prison, let alone cheat on him.
I don't think that term applies to any love unless you see yourself as someone's true love, starting with yourself . And as long as we cannot see ourselves as true love, we cannot see anyone else as being so. 
Mine differed slightly form yours as in he said he was never in love with his wife... and didn't really know what it was until he met me. And he now saw what he had missed all those years. He said he never had been so in love in his whole life, and i was ' too good to be true' ... maybe i was?
He started looking for the wrongs in me like poking his own eyes out.
I had felt like you did, everytime i saw him i felt like jumping his bones. It was a kind of attraction that i hadn't experienced before.
I felt i could do that all my life. even if he would be old and wrinkled.
The sabotage was killing me.

But reality is, mine was just bored.  And looking for an escape. Just like yours. Same thing , different package.
He made choices he regrets but cannot undo and was desperately looking for independence, and a sense of identity. Yet afraid to face the world on his own.
And somehow thought i could hit the reset button.
What was he going to do ? his wife already slapped him in the face with co-parentship in case of divorce and he would have to start making his own living, taking on full care for his son every other week and finding a house at the same time. Scary as hell after 17 years in an quite isolated relationship . He didn't have any friends left ... if he would leave he would just have me.
And on top of that he said he knows he has mental issues, he just puts it on his adhd. I would still say life expands in bravery and go for it. But i cannot help but understand.
When we returned from Bali that reality stroke i think.   
I try to forgive the cruelty by thinking of it was merely bad timing.
He was desperately looking for independence, and a sense of identity but too afraid to face the world on his own. Too afraid of taking the big leap.

I don't think being an introvert is the same as not wanting to communicate. What she did to you was something different, it is called abuse.
Someone told me once that the difference is where you get your energy from.
That introverts charge by being alone, or in nature and extroverts charge in other people's company. That makes me a classic introvert.
A therapist once told my i wasn't looking for confirmation, but for connection. I found that to be true. I can talk for hours and keep a constant line open with my loved ones. I need that too. I would never ever shut someone out in my need to be by myself. I just say so, with a big kiss or so.

I agree that withholding communication is worse than verbal abuse. Like you i have been there , know exactly how it feels. Looking back, nothing more than sadistic and insecure child's play. I cannot believe i ever stepped over that and continued after that. Denial i guess.
Mine once left my house in the middle of a conversation on a wednesday. I sent him a couple of messages and good nights/ mornings, thursday , friday with no reply. On saturday i gave up . On sunday night, out of the blue, he continued where we left our conversation on wednesday... .followed by some : you feel far away ? is everything ok ? in the same hour. I FEEL far away? It felt to me like Eddie with the invisible fish in an episode of friends.
So he was going offline for days ( he was allowed to be with & talk to me, so it i wasn't that he had to keep me a secret ) but needed my immediate confirmation when HE decided to log in.
And there i went,  confirming him everything was ok. Again, an ass award to me.(glitter, cheers).

I loved to hear what you like about yourself. Ironically, i ended the break up talk with my ex by saying: 'i don't want to do anything half. i don't go for halves '. So we have that one in common. Further, well people say i make them feel like they can be themselves. I am deeply interested in how things/people work, what they are made up of. I am proud i can make a living with something i dreamed of doing when i was young. I heard i move by staying real and i am a good motivator.
AND i can eat anything without getting fat. Credits to my father. 
















 


 

[doy]

o i copied a sentence. The second 'being afraid' was was probably about me.  Besides the fact i feel comfortable facing the world, i chose an unavailable man to point fingers at for not committing. So i that fear goes on my receipt.

[RomanticFool]

AND i can eat anything without getting fat. Credits to my father.  

I'm so jealous!

I laughed out loud at your: 'i agree.'
The best affirmation.

One thing I don't lack is confidence - self esteem is slightly different... .

I was wondering how her BPD displayed in her marriage. But i guess that is very hard to tell from the censored info you got from her about them.
However, i don't think her husband is her true love. You do not speak about your true love as being in prison, let alone cheat on him.

She used to say that she loved him as a friend. I believed her but then I thought if that was true why doesn't she leave? If it is due to her children, then surely she would still have wanted me. I am confused as to why she has let it end. When I denounced her as BPD she said 'you are just looking for reasons to justify my behaviour.' Abso-effing-lutely. You abused the man you said you loved and then let him walk - To quote Tom Jones, 'Why why why Delilah?'

This conundrum has plagued me for years. One thing I know. If I could have been with her, I'd never have cheated. She was THE ONE... .or was she? See this is the problem isn't it. It says in the detachment literature SHE WAS NOT THE ONE and as we discussed FEELINGS ARE NOT FACTS. I just know I would not have cheated on her. I was completely faithful in my 20's and then in my early 30's fuelled by drink, I crossed a line. However, I had a Spanish girlfriend who lived in Germany for 5 years and I loved her too. Never cheated on her. That may have partly been because she said to me once, 'You cheat on me, I cut your eggs.'

I don't think that term applies to any love unless you see yourself as someone's true love, starting with yourself . And as long as we cannot see ourselves as true love, we cannot see anyone else as being so.  

Once I become emotionally engaged with a person, there is never a second's doubt that I am their true love. I think that is half of my problem :-|

Mine differed slightly form yours as in he said he was never in love with his wife... and didn't really know what it was until he met me. And he now saw what he had missed all those years. He said he never had been so in love in his whole life, and i was ' too good to be true' ... maybe i was?
He started looking for the wrongs in me like poking his own eyes out.
I had felt like you did, everytime i saw him i felt like jumping his bones. It was a kind of attraction that i hadn't experienced before.
I felt i could do that all my life. even if he would be old and wrinkled.
The sabotage was killing me.

The pain of somebody sabotaging what you need is terrible. But what is so terribly frustrating regarding BPD is that they sabotage the thing they need most too. It is heartbreaking. I do not doubt he meant every word of love. Sadly for the BPD all the emotional noise just messes with their heads. BPDs are not psychopaths and despite what I have read regarding the CLINGING phase of a relationship where they use sex to control rather than to get close to, I believe that they are capable of feeling love. They just cannot sustain it. Mine used to say she loved me all the time. I have no reason to doubt it. She just was never going to leave her husband. Perhaps I am deluded but I don't think she would have said it if she didn't feel something akin to love. Interestingly enough, the more we talk the less critical I am becoming of her. I have read about much worse cases on here. She doesn't have the rage. After talking to Skip, I now believe that she wouldn't be diagnosed as BPD, just BPD traits.

But reality is, mine was just bored.  And looking for an escape. Just like yours. Same thing , different package.

I believe this too but I still think they are capable of feeling love, just not in any sustained way, as I said.

He made choices he regrets but cannot undo and was desperately looking for independence, and a sense of identity. Yet afraid to face the world on his own.
And somehow thought i could hit the reset button.
What was he going to do ? his wife already slapped him in the face with co-parentship in case of divorce and he would have to start making his own living, taking on full care for his son every other week and finding a house at the same time. Scary as hell after 17 years in an quite isolated relationship . He didn't have any friends left ... if he would leave he would just have me.
And on top of that he said he knows he has mental issues, he just puts it on his adhd. I would still say life expands in bravery and go for it. But i cannot help but understand.
When we returned from Bali that reality stroke i think.  
I try to forgive the cruelty by thinking of it was merely bad timing.
He was desperately looking for independence, and a sense of identity but too afraid to face the world on his own. Too afraid of taking the big leap.

The emotional morass he lives in probably just made everything fearful. I think of this a bit like autism. There is so much noise going on they retreat into themselves and often an earlier emotional development stage as a coping mechanism. I know my ex suffers terrible depression and she was always retreating. She used to regularly text me, 'Stay safe.' I had no idea what that meant at the time. I wish I'd been a little more gracious. Unless she was cheating, in which case I'd like to say FU.

I don't think being an introvert is the same as not wanting to communicate. What she did to you was something different, it is called abuse.

Yes, I will not get amnesia around this. It was abuse. ST is a terrible thing to do to anybody, especially when they have expressly asked you not to. I think she was arrogant, brutal and calculating around this. Along with the crap she said to me when she went back out drinking for a year. Especially the thing about how women in ancient tribes shave their heads when their lover abandons them. I had spent 9 months at that point trying to get her to meet me. Hey ho.

Someone told me once that the difference is where you get your energy from.
That introverts charge by being alone, or in nature and extroverts charge in other people's company. That makes me a classic introvert.

That is a great description. I think I am an introvert/extrovert because it varies with me. Sometimes I isolate and other times I am the life and soul. Less so since I quit drinking but it's in there somewhere.

A therapist once told my i wasn't looking for confirmation, but for connection. I found that to be true. I can talk for hours and keep a constant line open with my loved ones. I need that too. I would never ever shut someone out in my need to be by myself. I just say so, with a big kiss or so.

We are social animals, we all need to communicate. Some people just get anxiety around doing it. I think I was more shy when I was younger but in my professional life I have to be gregarious. In the book The Prophet by Khalil Gibran it says, 'Let there be spaces in your togetherness.' That is crucial for any kind of relationship. Do you need to be more gregarious for your work?

I agree that withholding communication is worse than verbal abuse. Like you i have been there , know exactly how it feels. Looking back, nothing more than sadistic and insecure child's play. I cannot believe i ever stepped over that and continued after that. Denial i guess.
Mine once left my house in the middle of a conversation on a wednesday. I sent him a couple of messages and good nights/ mornings, thursday , friday with no reply. On saturday i gave up . On sunday night, out of the blue, he continued where we left our conversation on wednesday... .followed by some : you feel far away ? is everything ok ? in the same hour. I FEEL far away? It felt to me like Eddie with the invisible fish in an episode of friends.
So he was going offline for days ( he was allowed to be with & talk to me, so it i wasn't that he had to keep me a secret ) but needed my immediate confirmation when HE decided to log in.
And there i went,  confirming him everything was ok. Again, an ass award to me.(glitter, cheers).

When I first came on here I was raging about my exes behaviour and Skip told me I was empathy impaired. So my problem with that is every time my ex pulled something like you have described above, I gave her hell. I would not tolerate that sh*t... .and she did the exact same thing to me on numerous occasions, disappeared for 3,4,5,6 days at various times... .always with some shi*ty excuse or other. I would always threaten to 'leave' ie not contact her, and a couple of times I carried it out but cracked after a few days. The pattern with her then was she would be angry at me for the lack of contact and not reply to my texts or return my calls. I've literally have to ring her and hound her until I talked her round. One time I even ended up apologising for saying she was a disgrace to the suicide prevention charity she worked for. What a mug as we say over here! Sometimes anger sets a boundary. I told her when we first recycled that I would never put up with the silent treatment again. Yeah right! Don't be hard on yourself, you loved the guy. The things we do for love eh?

I loved to hear what you like about yourself. Ironically, i ended the break up talk with my ex by saying: 'i don't want to do anything half. i don't go for halves '. So we have that one in common.

Half measures availed us nothing! Certainly not in love!

Further, well people say i make them feel like they can be themselves. I am deeply interested in how things/people work, what they are made up of. I am proud i can make a living with something i dreamed of doing when i was young. I heard i move by staying real and i am a good motivator.

I believe it. You have certainly cheered me up. Thank you Thank you!

[doy]

That says it. That she says you are just looking for reasons to justify her behavior. It reveals she knows it is downright unacceptable but wasn't going to change. Again, like a small child gets pulled away from kicking a vase and when her parent looks away, she does it again. Mine said multiple times: I will just hurt you , i am nothing , i do not have anything to offer you. When i asked him about his biggest fear, he said: 'going back to my family and hurting you. It would make me lose my face.'  It felt to me like something that he saw beyond his control. Well, he went for it.

I'd have to say RF her behavior WAS really bad, whether full fledged BPD or not , it is not ok to disappear for such a long time, and using you in the way she did while being (and staying) married. It is a very unsafe place for you to live in. Stay out of it!
If she ever wants to be with you she has to be out of her marriage and into facing some painful truths about herself. Please do not accept any less, you do not deserve that. Don't contact her, take it from me she is in that same place. The only thing you get from it is a mental rash and a nasty hangover. You know that.

I had to look up the word gregarious. I am in a creative field so most of what i do is  personal. Maybe therefore I do not have any problems with being gregarious in that area. I like working together which people and presenting. I easily step on a plane to work abroad for awhile but I tend to avoid exhibitions and openings even if they are around the corner. Don't know if that makes sense.

[RomanticFool]

That says it. That she says you are just looking for reasons to justify her behavior. It reveals she knows it is downright unacceptable but wasn't going to change. Again, like a small child gets pulled away from kicking a vase and when her parent looks away, she does it again.

I think she was up to no good. I do not believe that her husband found out about US, I think he found out about something - someone else - maybe. Or it was a total lie and she was distancing - because of someone else - maybe. Nothing else makes sense to me. The week before we broke up she was on a cruise with her mother and sister in law. When I asked her to send me a photo she looked tense and nervous. She had already texted me that her husband had found out about us. She also seemed distant when I spoke to her. As soon as she got back home, I asked her what her husband had said, she replied, 'He isn't talking to me, but don't worry, he doesn't know it's you.' I wasn't worried about me, I was worried about her. Then she didn't answer my text all day Saturday until the evening. Neither of us texted each other on the Sunday. I smelt a rat and bailed. I will never know the truth, but something was amiss. Her silence since then and her reaction when we finally did speak suggests to me that there is someone else. I'll never know for sure, I may just be being paranoid and it may well be that her husband is watching her like a hawk. I don't think it's because of me though. I think when you feel like that about somebody it is time to go. I don't think I ever truly trusted her, even though she gave me no reason not to as far as I know - until the drinking started up again. There were little things. Like one time she said she was going to see a band in Birmingham alone. That was still early on in and I put it to the back of my mind. I was constantly asking her if I was the only man in her life and one time she said, ':)o you think I would make a fool out of my husband?' That wasn't really the answer I was looking for. Her usual answer was, 'I am exclusive.' It is the one thing I would like to know for certain. However, in a few months I know I won't care.

Mine said multiple times: I will just hurt you , i am nothing , i do not have anything to offer you. When i asked him about his biggest fear, he said: 'going back to my family and hurting you. It would make me lose my face.'  It felt to me like something that he saw beyond his control. Well, he went for it.

The statement "I am nothing" is to do with borderline self image dysregulation. The rest of it is that he knew he would never leave his wife. Same as my ex.

I'd have to say RF her behavior WAS really bad, whether full fledged BPD or not , it is not ok to disappear for such a long time, and using you in the way she did while being (and staying) married. It is a very unsafe place for you to live in.

Thank you for saying that. Among all the self analysis, I was beginning to think I'd been too harsh on her. Abuse amnesia works both ways. I am married too, so I cannot take the moral high ground.

However, what I can take the moral high ground about is the first time we met 14 years ago, I was single. I travelled 100 miles and went to meet her in good faith. I only discovered she was married once we had met. I feel now, that had she not lied to me that very first time, I would have been forewarned and I doubt I would have travelled all that way to meet a married woman. Even if I did, I would have known and I doubt I'd have fallen for her so quickly. Maybe not at all. She robbed me of the chance to make a decision armed with the full facts.

Stay out of it! If she ever wants to be with you she has to be out of her marriage and into facing some painful truths about herself. Please do not accept any less, you do not deserve that. Don't contact her, take it from me she is in that same place. The only thing you get from it is a mental rash and a nasty hangover. You know that.

You are dead right. It is just getting over the pull. The pain is easing day by day. Talking about it really helps. I am not going back. I just don't trust her. She hasn't got my best interests at heart and never will have. Who wants that? You are right about the emotional hangover. I've had way too many of those over the past 6 years. Where are you at with yours?

I had to look up the word gregarious.

Your English is better than my Dutch! I bet you speak other languages too. You guys put us English to shame!

I am in a creative field so most of what i do is  personal. Maybe therefore I do not have any problems with being gregarious in that area. I like working together which people and presenting. I easily step on a plane to work abroad for awhile but I tend to avoid exhibitions and openings even if they are around the corner. Don't know if that makes sense.

Creative field and presenting. Hmmm. I could guess but I won't say in a public forum!

[doy]

'She robbed me of the chance to make a decision armed with the full facts.'
dunno how to quote. But this one actually brought tears to my eyes. Yes, she did... .and that was the beginning. That was the start.

I tend to believe the start of a relationship says a lot about what it is about. You went for miles, she lured you in with a lie. Be honest, that dynamic never changed. This is what it is.

You are going for miles now for yourself, which is amazing. No lies there. If you would jump back in now you throw that to the sharks. It is safe to say nobody knows the future, so don't panic about this being a finale. But at least take this time to work with yourself. And sincerely try to move away from what made you feel like ass with glitter on the top. I an few months you will be so happy that you didn't do anything right now. 

That trap ... .thinking oo i have my problems too , maybe she was not so bad Yes , you do ... but that doesn't minimize hers.
I find it the scariest thing to let go.
I keep hearing this line from Peaceful Warrior (movie)
'I know this is a scary moment for you, are you paying attention to it?

Like you I am in the stage right now where i think he is not a full fledged Borderliner
And i fly from hope to hurt to love and back. For now, i feel my heart is ripped out, i am scared. But i believe energy is measured by resistance. I just feed my own pain by resisting it.
The panic or wanting to contact is merely resistance i think.
It is not like he (or she) is going to take that pain away.
I want to just let them all BE. All those feelings, and not act on it.
Just be hurt, so what, i am alive. Be absolutely ridiculously hopeful, laugh at myself. Look at my phone twenty times ... lift my eyebrows to my own ridicule... Write online to someone you never met and don't know their real name. And receive unexpected gems of support.
I don't know if I ever said, but THANK YOU too.

[RomanticFool]

It is not like he (or she) is going to take that pain away.

This is the crux of the matter, doy. I read on here that co-dependency is an addictive illness (I'll try and dig out the exact quote). This is the mental health America definition:

Co-dependency is a learned behavior that can be passed down from one generation to another It is also known as “relationship addiction” because people with codependency often form or maintain relationships that are one-sided, emotionally destructive and/or abusive.

That says it all. We are addicted to the emotions and, sadly, to the abuse. Sobering thought isn't it?

I tend to believe the start of a relationship says a lot about what it is about. You went for miles, she lured you in with a lie. Be honest, that dynamic never changed. This is what it is.

A wise woman once said to me, "Never start a relationship off with a problem." Houston, we had a very big problem from the get go!

You are going for miles now for yourself, which is amazing. No lies there.

Getting on for 7 weeks with just one blip last week. Progress.

If you would jump back in now you throw that to the sharks. It is safe to say nobody knows the future, so don't panic about this being a finale. But at least take this time to work with yourself. And sincerely try to move away from what made you feel like ass with glitter on the top. I an few months you will be so happy that you didn't do anything right now.  

You are dead right. No way I'm going back now. No glitter on my ass!

That trap ... .thinking oo i have my problems too , maybe she was not so bad Yes , you do ... but that doesn't minimize hers.
I find it the scariest thing to let go.
I keep hearing this line from Peaceful Warrior (movie)
'I know this is a scary moment for you, are you paying attention to it?

I keep thinking, ":)o not get abuse amnesia. You went through hell!" Letting go is one of the most painful things in life. We must all be good to ourselves.

Must watch that movie. Sounds great. I knew this was a very big moment when I walked. It was 6 years in the making (length of time of the recycle).

Like you I am in the stage right now where i think he is not a full fledged Borderliner

That may be true for both of our exes, but one thing we have in common, they are definitely both on the BPD spectrum.

And i fly from hope to hurt to love and back. For now, i feel my heart is ripped out, i am scared. But i believe energy is measured by resistance. I just feed my own pain by resisting it.
The panic or wanting to contact is merely resistance i think.
It is not like he (or she) is going to take that pain away.
I want to just let them all BE. All those feelings, and not act on it.
Just be hurt, so what, i am alive. Be absolutely ridiculously hopeful, laugh at myself. Look at my phone twenty times ... lift my eyebrows to my own ridicule...

That reads like poetry/song lyrics. Go with the flow is what I get from that. Now the energy is flowing in a healthy direction - to freedom... .

Write online to someone you never met and don't know their real name. And receive unexpected gems of support.

We are so lucky we found this place. It has changed my life. Literally.

I don't know if I ever said, but THANK YOU too.

You are most welcome.

PS. As you are writing your reply, the quotations box is the yellow one above the triangle with the ! sign in it. When you click the button, make sure you are a couple of clicks down from the last thing you wrote. Two boxes with the word quote will appear and your text goes between them.