From control freak to extreme disinterest

[Peacefromwithin]

I'm curious if this is common BPD/NPD behavior. My mother, a raging, evil, manipulative militant controlling person did a complete 180 when I got married. She babbles about herself 100mph when she's on the phone with me. She's doesn't even say hello. I can put the phone down and come back a few minutes later and she's still going. My NPD dad does the same thing. I cannot stand being their sounding board. They're either boasting, venting, or raging like crazy four year olds. They even interrupt when I try to give my polite validating replies. My therapist wants all calls with them to be very brief.

I am rarely asked how I am, how my husband is, how work's going, etc. And if they do happen to ask they don't wait for an answer. In years past if I did try to talk about myself, anything that was the slightest bit different from how we were raised would be met with utter blank stares.

It doesn't hurt me that they don't ask about me because it's nothing new. I've never been allowed to have my own identity. But the realization of the complete 180 I find interesting and am now wondering if it's on purpose because they're so full of self-hate and take everything personally. (They still think I was a bad child which is so laughable. I was a really good child. But I was anxious because of all the chaos around me. I was "bad" because I was desperately trying to communicate my feelings and be my own person).

They're like emotional leaches addicted to the drug of using people and their children to meet their every little emotional need.

[Turkish]

So the 180 centers around you getting married and further growing into your own person,  yes?

I'd trust your therapist and keep conversations as brief as you are able.  This is a good boundary.  You are still hurt,  however,  by the history of behaviors and invalidation of you as a person. Where do you go from here? Do you and your T have a path yet? 

[LittleBlueTruck]

I'm sorry for what you are going through. The talking at length about themselves, never asking about you, blank stares if you do offer something... .are those NPD traits? I ask because one of my brothers does this to an extreme and it has really alienated him from family and friends and I wonder if he developed NPD traits in response to our BPD mother.

How do you end conversations? Does your therapist say it is worth it to try to talk to them about this or is the advice just to limit conversations?

[Peacefromwithin]

So the 180 centers around you getting married and further growing into your own person,  yes?

Sort of. My memory isn't the best because of all this trauma. But I think that was it. It didn't happen right away, though. We had to move out of state because I was having a nervous breakdown in our apartment because I was in fear my mother was going to bolt through the door in a rage, corner me, and pull my hair and scream at me until my ears rung and her face turned purple and her bottom teeth protruded out in anger. It's hard to explain unless you lived it. When I was dating my now husband and when we were engaged, she upped the control factor by millions. On my wedding night, she knocked on the hotel door 4 separate times. She tried to ruin my wedding. There was a great deal of abuse and manipulation from her. She made my wedding all about her and golden child sister. I should have eloped. She was in shear terror that she couldn't control me anymore yet she couldn't wait to have me leave her nest. It's a huge mind-f&ck

But yes anytime I tried to separate myself from her and set boundaries once I was physically separate from her and she couldn't deal with it, I think her way of trying to hurt me was to act like she didn't have any care about me as a person or any amount of respect for me as a person. It goes much, much much deeper than her obsessively and compulsively calling me by my sister's name and talking about my sister ad nausea. I sound like a spoiled child when I say that, but again it's something you have to experience first hand. I am not being sensitive here, although I told I was. I am much, much more mature and emotionally healthy than I was years ago. I swear she wants me to feel like I do not exist as a human being or person. It is so hard to explain but thank you for giving me a chance to try to explain it.

And what do I do? I still call and let her use me as a venting board like I am not even a human being. You know those people who practice racquetball against a wall? I'm the wall.

I once had a boyfriend who said, "The opposite of love is not hate, it is indifference." I do not know why he said this. But my mother went from raging control freak, to having absolutely no interest in me as a human being. I know that sounds "dramatic" but I swear I am not being dramatic. She knows absolutely nothing about me and doesn't care less to know anything about me. The only time she does act like she cares is if something physical is going on with my health, but then she turns into psychotic control freak again. So I have to try to remember to keep stuff to myself, instead of thinking she's changed and things will be different. It's really hard to explain.

I'd trust your therapist and keep conversations as brief as you are able.  This is a good boundary.  

I agree this is an excellent boundary. But I let the guilt of not "honoring thy mother and father" set in, and I don't respect myself enough to keep the boundary. I don't want to hurt their feelings if I try to make the call short. My dad will act very hurt. My mom will get angry or take it personally and then be angry that I'm making her feel that way.

I try really hard to trust my therapist. I even communicate with him when I don't trust him, which is something I've never done before with therapists. The healthy part of me sees the unhealthy part of me when I stop trusting him. It's so cool that I see that now. Years ago I couldn't.

The other thing is, my therapist is clear and says "keep conversations short", "no emails", but I don't know if it's because he uses a "light tone" and I think I need a "firm direct tone", or what. I hear him say it, I want to remember it, but then it all goes out the window and then I get very very angry at myself for not being able to take his suggestions or remember them in the moment.

Then I feel like a complete failure in therapy and as a human being. I know that sounds like self-pity but it's not. I'm just trying to share where my mind goes with all this. I want to break it already. I can't stand living this way. My other therapist before he retired used to say, "Peacefromwithin, I wish I could open up your head and reprogram you like a computer." Yeah--that! That's what I need but I keep getting stuck and it is so very frustrating. My family brainwashed me pretty good.

You are still hurt,  however,  by the history of behaviors and invalidation of you as a person. Where do you go from here? Do you and your T have a path yet?

Wow. This stopped me in my tracks. Yes. Yes, this is it. I am still allowing myself to be hurt by them and allowing them to invalidate me as a human being. Where do I go from here? I have no idea. That's the 64 million dollar question. I'm not sure what you mean by "do you and your T have a path yet?" What would be an example of a path? I'd love one. I'm tired of going through life without a road map. Then again if someone gives me one, the healthy part of me is like "oh wow! This is exactly what I've been searching for!" and the unhealthy part of me is like, "You don't deserve this. And you don't have the motivation to put one foot in front of the other. Plus you are going to get lost so why even bother."

I'd love to hear solutions and how to break free from this insanity.

Edit to add: I was never, ever allowed to have a single breath of my own identity. Now that I can, I am completely lost. I don't know how I feel or what to do. I've said this to my previous therapist before he retired and I'll say it again because it sums up how I feel so well: I feel like I am in an overly crowded street in Paris, where everyone around me is talking in a foreign language and rushing all around doing things, and I am sitting in the middle of the street completely lost.

[Turkish]

Peace,

In my 3 years on this board,  I've never (that I can recall) seen anyone judged here.  Challenged? Sure. The "honor thy father and thy mother" rubric is something most of us struggle with.  I believe what you are saying and feeling. 

Struggling to realize our own identities is another struggle that many here share with you. The realization of this can feel like robbery. Realizing this,  however,  is one of the steps towards healing, the path delineated in the Survivor's Guide to the right of this board---->

I know that the Lessons at the top of the board contain a lot of material,  though I encourage you to take a look. 

One of the most helpful links a senior member once provided me was the one on narcissistic family systems.  Take a look and tell us what you think.


4.02 | Family systems--understanding the narcissistic family

T

[Peacefromwithin]

I'm sorry for what you are going through. The talking at length about themselves, never asking about you, blank stares if you do offer something... .are those NPD traits? I ask because one of my brothers does this to an extreme and it has really alienated him from family and friends and I wonder if he developed NPD traits in response to our BPD mother.

Thanks, LittleBlueTruck. I am not sure if those are BPD or NPD traits, but I think they are more likely NPD traits. I think my mother has a mix of BPD and NPD, whereas my dad is just NPD. I know my dad loves me the best way he can, and so I do not think he has any idea of what he is doing. I do not think he is doing it out of malice. He can't help himself. He feels so badly about himself, and when he's on the phone with one of his children, he can't contain his excitement. He also has to constantly tell me and complete strangers great stuff about himself, in order to make himself feel better.

Yes I do believe someone can develop NPD traits in response to your BPD mother. I'm pretty sure my dad's step mother had BPD and she was a witch subtype. She used to beat the living daylights out of him. My dad is a gentle soul who just wants to be loved. But it's not easy to be around him. He also has very childish temper tantrums and sometimes in public. He is unaware of what he sounds like or how he makes people feel. When I try to get off the phone, I can feel his utter hurt and it pains me to no end. So I end up people pleasing so he feels better.

I truly believe from experience that self-centered people are craving love, attention, and approval from others because they don't have it for themselves, because one or both parent did not give it to them because they were incapable, too. It's a vicious, generational thing.

I'm going to go out on a limb and assume your brother has no idea how he's behaving and the more he does it, the more he alienates people, the more lonely he feels, the more the self-hate and emptiness grows, and the more he does these NPD traits to try to get people to like him... .:-(
 
I'll share a bit about myself. I used to talk compulsively to anyone I met about what I was going to college for, my profession, etc. Looking back, I'm sure I bored 99.9% of the people I was talking with (er... .at... .). I probably came across as a self-centered, better-than, know-it-all, egotistical, arrogant young woman. Yes that is the way I was acting. But it wasn't my true self. Having been brought up by a BPD/NPD monster who was obsessed with her children's grades, what people thought of her children, and treating me like I was no good, told people she didn't think I'd ever amount to anything, treated me like a dumb failure, I seeked approval from anyone with a pulse, in order to have a mustard seed of a sense of self. I had zero self-awareness of this behavior while I was doing it. I truly had no malice behind it, other than to just be liked, loved, accepted, and have friends. The harder I tried, the more alienated I became.

How do you end conversations?

That is a really, really good question. I'm sure my therapist gave me suggestions but at the moment I don't remember them. I am not one to ever end a conversation, shift a conversation, etc but the last few times on the phone with my parents or sister, I was able to when conversations were going places I didn't want them to go, or if I had enough of them taking oxygen out of my body and wanted to disconnect the IV. I think I'd say that I had to go walk my dog (which in some cases was true), had to make dinner, had to go food shopping, my husband needed me for something, or just a nice "Ok well it was nice speaking with you... ." I think my therapist suggested I have something in mind to say beforehand.

 

Does your therapist say it is worth it to try to talk to them about this or is the advice just to limit conversations?

I think this would depend on the individual. If it's someone who is trying to better themselves, in some sort of self-help group, therapy, or is doing something already to improve themselves, then yes I would talk to them. But I think due to the nature of BPD, this is not common. I would never approach a person with BPD without a therapist's input.

As far as your brother with NPD... .he might be a little easier to approach than a pwBPD but I am not sure. I am not an expert and just trying to speak from experience. I think if I approached my dad with something like this, he would either have an angry temper tantrum, or it would absolutely crush his spirit. You ask a really good question. My gut is that my therapist would say to limit the conversations. My spiritual adviser would say "be kind and loving, be brief, be gone." Sometimes loving these people helps them feel better about themselves, which might help them be less self-absorbed. But other times it could completely backfire and you end up loving them to a point that they suck the life out of you because it's almost as if attention, admiration, and love is their drug.

I hope this helps. Again, please no I am not an expert here. I speak from experience with my own family, and from my own traits.

I truly think at the core of BPD and NPD is such a shattered sense of self that they do not love themselves and cannot love others. But that doesn't mean we have to have the life sucked out of ourselves to fix them and be dragged down with them. Nor does it mean we have to tolerate abusive behavior. The more I think about it, I think my mother knew she was being abusive and thrived off of that power. But I wonder how many other pwBPD or more likely NPD actually were like that, too, or if they were abusive, they have no idea that they are being abusive, and they're not strong enough to face up to the self-awareness that they're being abusive.

Anyway my point is, they have to want to fix themselves. I think it's kind of like an alcoholic in that sense.

PS - I apologize for my long replies. It's not narcissistic, I swear! . I type as I think. If someone can seriously help me learn how to not do this, I would be extremely grateful. I never learned the art of replying in concise words. I do not know if you all find my "conscious stream of thought" helpful or hard to read. Please let me know so I can be as helpful as I can here. Thanks.

[Panda39]

How do you end conversations?

... .I think I'd say that I had to go walk my dog (which in some cases was true), had to make dinner, had to go food shopping, my husband needed me for something, or just a nice "Ok well it was nice speaking with you... ." I think my therapist suggested I have something in mind to say beforehand.

Maybe think of a few more, write them down and keep them where you can find them when your are on the phone. That way you have it handy and don't have to think it up on the fly until it becomes easier and more natural for you to do without cues.

Do you ever just not answer?  Maybe just let some of these calls go to voicemail and return the call when it is convenient for you or if it's just a call about nothing maybe not return the call or send an email response instead (steer it away from the never ending phone call). 

I've seen with my SO's daughters that they were both trained by their uBPDmom that they "must" answer the phone when it rings "that it is rude" to not answer the phone every time it rings.  She trained them to give her total access to them at anytime... .calls during dinner, calls when they had gone to bed/sleep etc.  She trained them to have no boundaries. She trained them using FOG.

So I wanted to make sure that you know that you do not have to answer the phone at all if you don't want to or it's inconvenient.

Panda39

[Peacefromwithin]

Maybe think of a few more, write them down and keep them where you can find them when your are on the phone. That way you have it handy and don't have to think it up on the fly until it becomes easier and more natural for you to do without cues.

Hi Panda,

Thanks that is a fantastic, simple, idea! :-)

Do you ever just not answer?  Maybe just let some of these calls go to voicemail and return the call when it is convenient for you or if it's just a call about nothing maybe not return the call or send an email response instead (steer it away from the never ending phone call).  

Actually since going VLC years ago, it's gotten easier. But back when I was engaged, Wow I'd have to leave my apartment and hide out at the mall or something just to avoid having to hear my mother's raging psychotic voice on my answering machine. She'd call repeatedly. She'd keep calling. She wouldn't stop. It was horrendously suffocating and awful hearing her raging at me because she was trying to control every breath I took. I was seriously teetering a fine line of having a nervous breakdown back then. I probably did have one but was still walking around without realizing it.

This is something I struggle with, even with VLC. My husband nonchalantly pointed out how I jump whenever they call or email me. I guess I am programmed and brainwashed to answer asap. Recently, when my mother felt she had an "in" if she talked to me about the weather, she shoved her way back in. She sent an email after calling because she didn't hear from me for another update. I waited until I went to sleep that night and sent this as an email reply: "We're fine. :-)" My therapist was proud of me for doing that. I was so thankful to the healthy part of myself that remembered to do that. It is not easy to remember what my therapist suggests, because my anxiety and the brainwashing overrides and engulfs his teachings like a tornado cloud. (I'm not meaning to being dramatic here, I am seriously just trying to explain what it is like.) It's like I have to fight with myself to not jump to answer the phone or return an email because I know it'll make them rage if they don't hear from me right away.

I had decided years ago to go VLC when two therapists suggested NC. My current therapist asked why I decided VLC. It was because I couldn't bare the thought or guilt of hurting them by not calling at least on birthdays and major holidays. It's complicated, I guess. But those calls that just go on and on and on, you're right--I need to be better with self-care at stopping those sooner.

I've seen with my SO's daughters that they were both trained by their uBPDmom that they "must" answer the phone when it rings "that it is rude" to not answer the phone every time it rings.  She trained them to give her total access to them at anytime... .calls during dinner, calls when they had gone to bed/sleep etc.  She trained them to have no boundaries. She trained them using FOG.

Yes. That is exactly how I was trained. Or, if I was commanded to come in for dinner, I had to drop everything and go in for dinner. One time my boyfriend and I were watching a really exciting part of a tennis tournament, and my mother was just so awful that I had to comply and shut the tv. My boyfriend was bewildered. My mother and sisters also trained me to have zero boundaries. I was trained to have absolutely zero allowance for self-respect.

I apologize if this is crude, but if I was in the bathroom trying to go #2, she'd freak out and bang on the door. If I didn't jump as soon as she commanded, there'd be hell to pay at my lack of respect for her. I'm so much better now, but I have to remember each time we're on the phone. I have to give her credit where credit is due, because of the years she did have times where she got better over email. Her emails used to be 1 paragraph that was a page long of her raging and ranting over whatever was making her angry. She was able to now and then just send brief, small talk emails but I never could trust if it was authentic, or if it was manipulation to pull me back into the FOG.

So I wanted to make sure that you know that you do not have to answer the phone at all if you don't want to or it's inconvenient.

Thanks, Panda!    I truly appreciate that reminder. It's something I could see my marriage counselor saying to me, firmly and directly, and that style always sinks in. I apologize if my post here was wordy. I am not feeling emotional, but I got a little lost in the details of the experience.

[Peacefromwithin]

Peace,

In my 3 years on this board,  I've never (that I can recall) seen anyone judged here.  Challenged? Sure. The "honor thy father and thy mother" rubric is something most of us struggle with.  I believe what you are saying and feeling.

Hi Turkish!  

I almost missed your post. Sorry about that. Thank you for saying that that commandment is something most of us struggle with. Thank you also for saying you believe what I'm saying and feeling. Wow I wish I had this validation 20 years ago when I was in the tornado cloud.

Struggling to realize our own identities is another struggle that many here share with you. The realization of this can feel like robbery. Realizing this,  however,  is one of the steps towards healing, the path delineated in the Survivor's Guide to the right of this board---->

I know that the Lessons at the top of the board contain a lot of material,  though I encourage you to take a look.  

I got very frustrated and angry in therapy because I still struggle with my own identity. I was able to see that I was frustrated and angry, and I apologized to my therapist. It's scary I guess. To admit I still struggle with something that is so freely given to other children as they grow. I guess the BPD parent really trains her young well. We're damned if we stay, damned if leave. Well I know I have strength within and so I am going to work hard at conquering this.

Thank you so much for pointing me to the Survivor's Guide. I forgot it was there. :-) Years ago, I was on forums like this, and people would point me there or I'd print out inches thick of material. I desperately wanted to read them, wanted to study them, wanted to process what I was reading and take it all in and apply it, but I could not. My anxiety kept me stuck and overwhelmed.  I wonder if anyone realized that. I wonder if my therapist did. I so desperately wanted to heal, and I wanted to fix myself, but the anxiety and all the negative messages screaming in my head kept knocking me down.

So if anyone reading this is struggling with that same issue know, now that you're not crazy, you're not a failure, *I* know you want to get well and that you are doing the very, very best you can. And I'm rooting for you to take those steps to better yourself no matter how hard and how long it takes. You can do it!

One of the most helpful links a senior member once provided me was the one on narcissistic family systems.  Take a look and tell us what you think.


4.02 | Family systems--understanding the narcissistic family

I will look at this. Thank you for pointing me to one favorite link. That is exactly what I need so I fight the urge to collect info which would lead me to paralysis by overwhelm. Ah, the gift of self-awareness... .

Thanks, J!