Enmeshment

[AskingWhy]

My uBPD/NPD H has always been enmeshed with his children from his first marriage.

Evidently H has been confiding with one of his children (one of his daughters) about our marital problems.  These problems are due mostly to his bullying and simply being BPD/NPD.

His daughter considers her father as her best friend as she has no close female girl friends.  She is married and has no children. 

In the last argument, H raged at me and started ordering me about the house about housework, cleaning etc.  It was then that I learned he was regularly talking to his daughter about our arguments.

Is this type of enmeshment normal for BPDs. 

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[pearlsw]

I don't know if this is normal or common, but my H is the same way. In my opinion, he uses his kids as friends and has trouble respecting what I consider to be some of the typical barriers between parents and children. In the last years he's managed to lose most of his adult friends via fights of one sort or another and has had trouble with the kids as well. I always chalked these things up to the stresses of his previous divorce and custody battle, but there is more to it I think.

The last time they were here I heard him "threaten" his kids as well as a parenting "technique". For example, "if you ever call your little brother stupid again i will NEVER forgive you." I thought that was pretty harsh and inappropriate, and that other options for addressing the issue are preferable but I am in no position to do or say much. I am shocked too when he uses them to discuss marital problems with. I find this highly inappropriate and he just makes it harder for me to exist in my role as a "step-parent". So, no wisdom here for you, but I am curious about the answers you'll get.

I am strongly against the way he treats me when the kids are around. I try to discuss such issues ahead of time and set boundaries on this, but no matter how many times you think you've discussed an issue or headed things off ahead of time, it all goes out the window the instant he is under extra stress from his visit. It is horrible for me because he inevitably breaks with me and embarrasses me horribly when they are around so I am always under tremendous stress when they are here. I try to convince him this is bad for the kids and if he wants to break up with me (he does this regularly) to at least not do this when they are here, to hold it till they leave, but nope. Happens every time. It is hard to know how to interact with the kids because of this. I always believed his break up threats until I recently came to this board and finally, thank goodness, found others here who experienced this ridiculous amount of break ups. Sigh. You have my sympathies!

[IsThisThingOn]

Hi AskingWhy,

I like to refer to this as "rounding up the soldiers." If I had to guess, your H probably does some talking of his own to you about his daughter. The same one he then tells things about you.  Triangulation at its finest. The old "divide and conquer" if you will.

In my own experience, the BPD/NPD gets a few things out of doing this:
- Validation for their own bad behavior
- Someone who "knows the problems" so when they share their issues/concerns its no surprise and the support is there. An endless well of instant gratification. Self serving.
- A feeling of being wanted. Cared for. Supported.

There are others... .my brain has decided to have a complete brain fart just as I was listing the ones that had come to mind 

Point I was getting at:  yes, this is common behavior and unfortunately does not lead to any good behavior being validated. My advice to you is to not necessarily believe everything that your H claims when he does divulge to you that he's spoken to so-and-so about your 'issues'. More often than not the way it is being repeated back to you is like a game of telephone... .by the time it reaches the final set of ears its a completely different word/phrase!

Have you considered setting this as a boundary?  It's not reasonable to tell him he cant speak to his children, of course. But it is reasonable to ask that he refrain from speaking to them about issues/concerns he may have about his relationship. Those concerns/issues would be best served being spoken to you. The only way to a satisfactory resolution is through proper communication (which is difficult as it is with our SO's!)

In my own personal experiences: It took me stating a few times that I would not tolerate her triangulating before it stopped.  I will admit that there have been a few slip ups but they have been fessed up and apologized for by her before I even knew they had occurred. I'll take it as a win!

[AskingWhy]

I think triangulation is the right word.

I learned he is also confiding with another daughter.  

BPDs/NPDs don't have a clear understanding of appropriate boundaries.  Enmeshment is very common, I would presume.

Apparently his children (all adults) are so obsessed that their parents are no longer married they can't accept their father is no longer married to their mother.  (The mother had an affair, then ran off to marry her lover.)

[IsThisThingOn]

Apparently his children (all adults) are so obsessed that their parents are no longer married they can't accept their father is no longer married to their mother.  (The mother had an affair, then ran off to marry her lover.)

It sounds by your 'apparently' that this may be something he told you. If so, I would take it with a grain of salt. As I mentioned before... .game of telephone. More than that... .I've found through my own experiences that it's often a purposely misconstrued statement. You hear what your SO thinks would most get under your skin. In my situation it was always some twisted way of seeing just how much I cared about her measured by how bothered I got with these tidbits of information.

The more bothered it made me, the more frequent I heard convoluted things.

Do you feel that has been your experience?

[AskingWhy]

It sounds by your 'apparently' that this may be something he told you. If so, I would take it with a grain of salt. As I mentioned before... .game of telephone. More than that... .I've found through my own experiences that it's often a purposely misconstrued statement. You hear what your SO thinks would most get under your skin. In my situation it was always some twisted way of seeing just how much I cared about her measured by how bothered I got with these tidbits of information.

The more bothered it made me, the more frequent I heard convoluted things.

Do you feel that has been your experience?

With BPDs, it's never a matter of clear, honest communication or being authentic.

It's hard to define the reason H is so enmeshed with his children but it does appear he needs validation when we are having, like most married couples, disagreements.  He want them on his "side" with him against me.  I also suspect one of the children might be bipolar or uBPD due to the instability of this adult child's actions, which includes drug use and a suicide attempt.

There is also the issue of projection.  The children's mother cheated on H with a married man while they were still infants, then she left H and married her lover.  (The lover divorced his wife.)  She had sole custody of the children.  Fast forward and that lover-turned-husband took a mistress.  The children of H have no idea of what a normal marriage should look like.  I suspect H is projecting his anger over his first wife's infidelity on me.  In essence, punishing me for what his ex-wife did.