convincing partner to participate in counseling

[bman2232]

Does anyone have any advice for how to talk to your partner about seeking therapy for their likely BPD? She does not believe that counseling will help her, and does not understand why we should seek treatment. Or at least what she would gain from seeking treatment. Perhaps I am a bit naive in my thinking that counseling would be of benefit to her if she is not actively looking for help.

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[Tattered Heart]

Hi bman2232,

I'm sorry that you're having a hard time getting your partner to admit she needs help. It's one of the most frustrating things about BPD. We see their need but getting them to see it just feels like such a struggle.

I finally got my H to agree to T a few months ago, after years of trying. But by the time we found a DBT counselor, he changed his mind and felt like he didn't need it anymore.   So now back to square one.

Does your partner acknowledge that she has any type of problems, such as depression or anxiety? Or is she in complete denial about everything?

[bman2232]

Hello,

Thank you for your reply. After I posted this I read the resources on Anosognosia, and I am asking myself should I be pushing the issue with her. Is this me wanting her to be better for me so it is easier? I have come to the conclusion that, yes I would like things to be easier, but it really isn't about me. My primary concern is that we now have children, and I worry about how it might affect them as they get older.

To more directly answer your question, she has brief moments of awareness on some things. Like she knows that she gets too angry about things from time to time. But she sees that as something she can change on her own. She was definitely abused as a child, but has trouble acknowledging it as abuse even when she is describing events that any outside person would interpret as very abusive (physically and emotionally). She has gradually come around to the fact that she was abused, but it is still somewhat of a detached thing for her emotionally. I think her mother is Borderline too. Which is part of why I am concerned about my kids. She also has trouble acknowledging when she was wrong to get angry. Like if she gets upset with someone outside of the family, which has happened recently, she cannot accept that her actions were anything other than justified. She has what I describe as a persecution complex in these situations. Everyone is allowed to get upset but her, is almost a direct quote she repeats over and over. This opinion persists regardless of her emotional state, and I think it is probably something that prevents her from facing the destructiveness of her actions. She is definitely anxious, but anytime I suggest it she gets VERY angry and defensive. I really don't understand why. She is overly dependent on me, and will readily admit that fact. When I (rarely) go out of town for work she misses me terribly. Having the children has helped significantly with this, but that too is somewhat concerning to me for them as they get older. Teenagers will want to push away, and that does not work out so well with BPD. I guess we will cross that bridge when we get there.

I guess I want her to go to counseling to address some of the major anxiety that she cannot accept. Which I think drives most of her anger.

I have figured out on my own how to interact and de-escalate the anger when it happens. But my children are not able to do what I do. She has not been abusive to them physically, and I don't think she ever would because of what she experienced as a child. And she hasn't hit me. But the yelling worries me as possibly (definitely?) emotionally abusive. Even when they aren't the target, which truly is most of the time, I am almost always the target (and I want to keep it that way). She is hard on our oldest child who is now in school, but does not see it as such. I think he reminds her of herself at that age.

Anyway, sorry for ranting. I haven't really been able to talk to anyone about this. At least anyone who understands. I am realizing that I should seek counseling regardless of whether or not she is willing to go. My own anxiety has been heightened lately, primarily because of the abrupt reappearance of the symptoms all of us know too well. Any advice is welcome.

[waitingwife]

Hello,

Thank you for your reply. After I posted this I read the resources on Anosognosia, and I am asking myself should I be pushing the issue with her. Is this me wanting her to be better for me so it is easier? I have come to the conclusion that, yes I would like things to be easier, but it really isn't about me. My primary concern is that we now have children, and I worry about how it might affect them as they get older.

To more directly answer your question, she has brief moments of awareness on some things. Like she knows that she gets too angry about things from time to time. But she sees that as something she can change on her own. She was definitely abused as a child, but has trouble acknowledging it as abuse even when she is describing events that any outside person would interpret as very abusive (physically and emotionally). She has gradually come around to the fact that she was abused, but it is still somewhat of a detached thing for her emotionally. I think her mother is Borderline too. Which is part of why I am concerned about my kids. She also has trouble acknowledging when she was wrong to get angry. Like if she gets upset with someone outside of the family, which has happened recently, she cannot accept that her actions were anything other than justified. She has what I describe as a persecution complex in these situations. Everyone is allowed to get upset but her, is almost a direct quote she repeats over and over. This opinion persists regardless of her emotional state, and I think it is probably something that prevents her from facing the destructiveness of her actions. She is definitely anxious, but anytime I suggest it she gets VERY angry and defensive. I really don't understand why. She is overly dependent on me, and will readily admit that fact. When I (rarely) go out of town for work she misses me terribly. Having the children has helped significantly with this, but that too is somewhat concerning to me for them as they get older. Teenagers will want to push away, and that does not work out so well with BPD. I guess we will cross that bridge when we get there.

I guess I want her to go to counseling to address some of the major anxiety that she cannot accept. Which I think drives most of her anger.

I have figured out on my own how to interact and de-escalate the anger when it happens. But my children are not able to do what I do. She has not been abusive to them physically, and I don't think she ever would because of what she experienced as a child. And she hasn't hit me. But the yelling worries me as possibly (definitely?) emotionally abusive. Even when they aren't the target, which truly is most of the time, I am almost always the target (and I want to keep it that way). She is hard on our oldest child who is now in school, but does not see it as such. I think he reminds her of herself at that age.

Anyway, sorry for ranting. I haven't really been able to talk to anyone about this. At least anyone who understands. I am realizing that I should seek counseling regardless of whether or not she is willing to go. My own anxiety has been heightened lately, primarily because of the abrupt reappearance of the symptoms all of us know too well. Any advice is welcome.

Hi bman,
My uBPDH recently started therapy- 6 months ago. I was at a similar crossroad as you are about 2 years ago. When circular arguments were just unavoidable. His refusal to seek help made me accumulate resentment and that crippled our relationship to blossom to it's full potential. My T helped me understand that different people have different perspectives and he may not be seeking help for his reasons. So I kept going in therapy and my T helped me separate what was in my control and stuff that was not mine to carry, she helped me put it back in the right place(in this case - it was on H). I was also worried because of D7 but having very healthy boundaries became very important and H is rarely mean or angry towards her because he recognizes how he was verbally abused a kid. But the most important part was me taking care of myself and being able to support H from a place of abundance versus a place of need. He started softening in his view about needing help... .it was a very slow process. Earlier, I feel like I'd jump in to rescue and pick up all his yucky feelings/anger/resentment and the way my T described it was - pwBPD get a high when they can offload it. So it was VERY important to stop enabling him and that was the hardest for me. Because when I say no/draw a boundary, I use to feel like a mean person... .There are days when I don't take good care of myself, I have my bad days where I end up in self-doubt before I know it. Standing up for my needs and asserting myself have helped me build upon the strength needed to make the change. It is hard work but very much worth it in the long run. We almost don't have Silent Treatments anymore... .We talk and communicate about our feelings... .Sometimes they're not what the other person expects but we are learning each others love language and saying the same thing in a different language is enough to alleviate the pain.
What will it take for you to find a Therapist to just process all that you have been through? How is your anxiety getting in the way of leading a fuller life?

[bman2232]

She and I are actually going to a therapist tomorrow. She happens to be one who I saw when I was a kid, so she knows me and my anxiety from years ago. I am worried (of course) because my wife doesn't really know why we are going. I was able to convince her to go because her older sister told us over the holidays that their father abused her sexually when she was a child. My wife's response was very flat, and did not seem at all surprised by the revelation though she cannot explain why. She has always idolized her father and demonized her mother (though much less in recent years). Her flat response to the news really shook me, so I probably pushed a bit harder than I would normally. And it seemed to work, sort of, she is going. She acknowledges that her reaction to the news is not typical, at least it isn't the kind of reaction I would have in her shoes. But that's about as far as it gets. I know the therapist will quickly pick up on the anxiety, and I don't know what the response will be if/when she asks about it, even if indirectly. Like I said, we will see what happens when we get there. Where I was going with that is that in any case I intend to continue seeing this therapist myself whether she does or not. So I am getting help, though I doubt she will continue past 1 session. I vacillate between optimism and pessimism. I suppose my anxiety gets in the way because I now have more than just myself to worry about. Up until recently her erratic behavior only really affected me, and occasionally my parents. But now it affects our kids, even if it is just indirectly by witnessing what happens between the two of us. I am trying to decide how to proceed because I do love my wife and I want it to work. I want our kids to have a relationship with their mom, but I don't want the trauma that seems to come with being around her. I don't know how to address these concerns with her in a way she can hear and discuss.


In response to your post waitingwife, when you say you set boundaries and that helped, can you go into that a little bit more? You said you would jump in and pick up your H feelings. I guess I am just having trouble understanding what that looks like.

[waitingwife]

She and I are actually going to a therapist tomorrow. She happens to be one who I saw when I was a kid, so she knows me and my anxiety from years ago. I am worried (of course) because my wife doesn't really know why we are going. I was able to convince her to go because her older sister told us over the holidays that their father abused her sexually when she was a child. My wife's response was very flat, and did not seem at all surprised by the revelation though she cannot explain why. She has always idolized her father and demonized her mother (though much less in recent years). Her flat response to the news really shook me, so I probably pushed a bit harder than I would normally. And it seemed to work, sort of, she is going. She acknowledges that her reaction to the news is not typical, at least it isn't the kind of reaction I would have in her shoes. But that's about as far as it gets. I know the therapist will quickly pick up on the anxiety, and I don't know what the response will be if/when she asks about it, even if indirectly. Like I said, we will see what happens when we get there. Where I was going with that is that in any case I intend to continue seeing this therapist myself whether she does or not. So I am getting help, though I doubt she will continue past 1 session. I vacillate between optimism and pessimism. I suppose my anxiety gets in the way because I now have more than just myself to worry about. Up until recently her erratic behavior only really affected me, and occasionally my parents. But now it affects our kids, even if it is just indirectly by witnessing what happens between the two of us. I am trying to decide how to proceed because I do love my wife and I want it to work. I want our kids to have a relationship with their mom, but I don't want the trauma that seems to come with being around her. I don't know how to address these concerns with her in a way she can hear and discuss.


In response to your post waitingwife, when you say you set boundaries and that helped, can you go into that a little bit more? You said you would jump in and pick up your H feelings. I guess I am just having trouble understanding what that looks like.

I feel like my relationship and walking on eggshells had really weighed me down and caused a dip in my self-esteem. Like your wife, I never realized any codependency issues in my FOO until I could truly separate what’s in my xontrol versus what is not. So I’m not surprised that your wife doesn’t have a reaction to the sexual abuse. Sometimes as a child she must have blocked her feelings out as a coping mechanism and BPDs are like a 2 year told toddler when triggered. But a Therapist will have a way to make your wife face the extent of the effect it has had on her- but that can happen only if your wife “wants” to deal with it. Think of it as a way like her old coping ways of blocking/raging/anger is working for her right now so why would she want to change it. Out here they say Marriage Counseling doesn’t work with pwBPD but if you feel it will help you, there’s nothibg to loose. I found it very important to have my own independent Therapist who had my perspective in mind. My H also used to go for counseling many years ago but it came from “me wanting” him yo go and it was a waste of time & money- didn’t do him any good. 6 months ago, he has started going on his own accord and the T has him on an anti-depressant and it’s seeming to do wonders. I feel the shift happened largely because of me starting to feel well and make changes.
So a boundary for example looks like:
Past: when H would dysregulate, I’d drop everything I had and spend my energy in making him feel better - by either agreeing with him(being a doormat) or altering the world(people) to smooth things out and make him feel better. For example if he’s upset about going out to a friend’s and we have committed to go, I’d not go with the fear of what is to come.
Present: I use SET and try to everything that brings me happiness. It’s taken me a while to even stop & think - what is it that I need in the moment when my anxiety & fears start kicking in?
I figured in therapy that my anxiety comes from my Mom always never letting me & my brother fight or even have any disagreements growing up coz she’d proudly tell the world how she has the perfect kids who’ve bever fought. Also she NEVER liked/likes to talk about yucky feelings when I have disagreements with her. So even now when I witness disagreements or conflicts, I go into flight/freeze. But then breathing into my feelings and just staying with it & sticking to what I decided when I anticipated those feelings helps me get through them. I didn’t learn this skill growing up, but I am starting to learn it now.
Goodluck with your Therapist and I really hope things work out for you.
 

[bman2232]

Thank you for sharing. That really does help me understand, and I am guilty of the exact same "smoothing out" behaviors as you. I suspect we have a lot in common because your mom sounds a lot like mine (in the parts you described). The only difference is that I used to flight/freeze in the face of conflict, but now I generally don't feel much of anything. I guess I have learned not to take her raging personally, though it is hard when she starts picking me apart. I usually counter with anger in that situation, which of course does absolutely no good and just makes things worse. She really has gotten "better" in recent years, and the way she is now is nowhere near as bad as when we were first married. I realize that could be desensitization on my part, but I really do think she has changed for the better. But she is still unwilling to entertain she has anything wrong other than a short fuse at times, and maybe some challenges with our kids because of how she was raised. Maybe that is enough for her to be receptive to counseling, maybe not. We will see. Thank you again.

[Tattered Heart]

Let us know how the appointment goes. I hope your W is open to getting T to help work through her childhood issues, but it sounds like you are being realistic in knowing that might not happen.

One thing to consider. If your W is open to therapy, you might ask for a referral to another T. Looking at it from the perspective of someone with BPD, if the T gets her to look at her own behavior, especially in regards to your relationship, she may begin to believe the T is taking your side because you went to the T when you were younger. If she is open to the referral, try to get into a T that specialized in DBT therapy.

[bman2232]

Thank you for the idea about a referral. I will probably find another therapist to see personally to avoid any potential perception of triangulating against her. I know that can happen, and in fact she has accused me of doing something to that effect to her with her family (I made the mistake of agreeing with the wrong thing once). The main reason we chose this therapist is because she happens to attend our church, and so my wife already knew her on a casual basis. It felt a little bit safer to her, I think. She is an LPC and has been practicing a long time, obviously saw me when I was a kid and I am now in my mid 30's. Our session went much better than I expected. She actually admitted that she has trouble with identifying or labeling her feelings. It took everything inside of me not to show the literal shock I was feeling. I didn't know she possessed that level of insight. She told me afterwards that she isn't entirely sure where it came from, as in she doesn't know why she said it "out loud." But she did, and she meant it! They are having a 1 on 1 session next week to begin exploring how to label feelings. The therapist did not say Borderline out loud, but it was pretty clear by the end of the session that she knew what was happening as she described my wife's struggles based on what she heard her say about her childhood. I suppose it doesn't really matter if my wife knows exactly what basis the counselor is using for therapeutic intervention, so long as it helps her feel better. Even if she doesn't yet know how she feels.

[waitingwife]

Thank you for the idea about a referral. I will probably find another therapist to see personally to avoid any potential perception of triangulating against her. I know that can happen, and in fact she has accused me of doing something to that effect to her with her family (I made the mistake of agreeing with the wrong thing once). The main reason we chose this therapist is because she happens to attend our church, and so my wife already knew her on a casual basis. It felt a little bit safer to her, I think. She is an LPC and has been practicing a long time, obviously saw me when I was a kid and I am now in my mid 30's. Our session went much better than I expected. She actually admitted that she has trouble with identifying or labeling her feelings. It took everything inside of me not to show the literal shock I was feeling. I didn't know she possessed that level of insight. She told me afterwards that she isn't entirely sure where it came from, as in she doesn't know why she said it "out loud." But she did, and she meant it! They are having a 1 on 1 session next week to begin exploring how to label feelings. The therapist did not say Borderline out loud, but it was pretty clear by the end of the session that she knew what was happening as she described my wife's struggles based on what she heard her say about her childhood. I suppose it doesn't really matter if my wife knows exactly what basis the counselor is using for therapeutic intervention, so long as it helps her feel better. Even if she doesn't yet know how she feels.

That’s the whole idea. I have burnt myself suggesting to H that he might have BPD(8 years ago). Right now his therapist is helping him without using any labels. It’s very scary for pwBPD to be labeled coz that’s what they struggle with MOST. I’m glad you’re able to have a paradigm shift and able yo recognize that all that matters is your wife gets the help she needs to learn new strategies... .if not having a label floats her boat, so be it coz you’re gaining either ways!
Having an individual therapist was a BIG turning point for us and if the T you see from childhood can be your T, that would help more coz your wife will have a new T with a fresh perspective and that’ll be her perspective so she can start forming a bond and develop trust which is an uphill battle for pwBPD. Also the biggest advantage to having individual T is at any point if your W quits therapy which is highly likely with pwBPD, you’ll have the support of your T to rely on instead of being disheartened or frustrated from all the work you guys did  together. It’s great that you’re anticipating these things and going in with a curious & open mind.
All of this can be a lot of hard, how are you taking care of yourself? What do you do that brings you joy & happiness irrespective of your wife?

[bman2232]

Right now she has agreed to continue therapy as long as we continue couples counseling for our problems with communication. Which I think are legit, and I certainly have my faults in that area. So it can't hurt. She confessed to me last night that exploring her feelings scares her because she may find that she isn't as happy as she thinks she is. I feel like she is on the verge of a major revelation in herself, I just hope she doesn't get scared and retreat.

As far as myself, I find focusing on my kids to be very beneficial. Because they are receptive to pretty much all of my attempts to guide them. I can model the things she didn't get in her family with them, and in front of her. She seems appreciative of this because she recognizes she cannot do some of this herself (she uses different words I can't quite remember right now). Lately with my 7 year old, we talk a lot about how he feels, and I am trying to help him learn how to put his words with the feelings he is having. Instead of just anger in all frustrating and disappointing situations, maybe label it as such and try a different response to see if there is a different result. I realized last night that this might be why she came to the realization that she has trouble labeling her own emotions.

I definitely do need to find other outlets, but in the past when I start trying to get out of the house, she reacts negatively. Just last night, I was on the phone for about an hour with a friend who is struggling with some things right now, and she gradually became more and more agitated. She never became angry, but she did ask me several times when we would be done. She would probably say its because she wanted help with the kids, but in reality it was the fact that I was robbing her of the attention I normally give her at that time in the evening. My point is that I have cut off a lot of people in my life in the past because I had to in order to keep my wife happy. I kind of just had that realization, just now. Weird. Anyway, I realize now this is a boundary I need to work on setting in our marriage. With that said, the single biggest thing I have been able to realize from this dialogue is that I do need to focus on myself more. I am very grateful to all of you who have dialogued with me about this.