Do those w/BPD want to get better?

[Beware of Junk Psychology...]

Friends,

I like to think they do, but experience tells me they don't.

Like most things about BPD, there's probably no easy answer and, of course, there are always exceptions.  Yet I suspect the exceptions are few and far between.

What has been your experience?

LuckyJim

[Lucky Jim]

Friends,

I like to think they do, but experience tells me they don't.

Like most things about BPD, there's probably no easy answer and, of course, there are always exceptions.  Yet I suspect the exceptions are few and far between.

What has been your experience?

LuckyJim

[MeandThee29]

Mine has had flashes of wanting to change, but ultimately the spotlight always comes back to me. I'm 90% responsible for the breakdown of the relationship, you know.

He stuck for twice-a-week counselling for a month, and then quit when she told him that he has a big ego and blames others too much.

The same counsellor told me that he needed DBT, probably at least a year. I asked her how many truly got better, and she said only a handful.

[Insom]

Interesting question, Lucky Jim.  Like you, I'm not optimistic but do root for exceptions.

When my ex had an emotional breakdown and got into therapy there was a period of a few weeks or months when he took it seriously and seemed to make progress.  Alas, I wasn't able to offer much in the way of support due to my own unaddressed issues.  (While I supported him being in therapy I didn't believe I needed it myself.)  If we'd both entered therapy at the same time more progress may have been possible and we may have been able to break up more healthily, though I'm skeptical about his ability to hang in over the long-term. 

[Jeffree]

Get better? There was nothing wrong with either of my BPD exes according to them. I was the problem, the kids were the problem, work was the problem, finances were the problem, anything and everything other than them was the problem. How would they even know there was anything wrong with them?

J

[Lucky Jim]

The pattern was always the same: My Ex would go for a handful of visits with a T, then find some excuse to drop out, usually because there was something wrong with the T!  Sometimes she went individually and sometimes we went together for MC.  Either way, it was always a short-lived proposition.

M&T: Only 90%?  I'm surprised you are not responsible for more.   

Insom: I'm skeptical, too, about the ability of a pwBPD to keep up therapy, for the reasons cited above.

Jeffree: You are cracking me up, my friend!   

[once removed]

are we talking about diagnosed, undiagnosed/traits? higher on the spectrum, lower on the spectrum?

what does "better" mean in this case? remission of the disorder? better coping? a healthy relationship? feeling better? getting along with us better?

[babyducks]

my Ex was/is diagnosed, compliant with medication, regular with therapy.   after 7 years she no longer met the criteria for BPD but did struggle with Bipolar.   Medication was only partly successful at controlling mania for her.     and she struggled with skill sets that were not intuitive.

[SlyQQ]

Yes, but they also realize they will never get better, therapy etc etc etc can only give them coping mechanisms
to deal with the situation, and so they like to put part or all of the onus onto others.

[heartandwhole]

In my experience, yes, pwBPD (diagnosed) is trying to get better. At least when we were together, that was my experience. He was in therapy, working hard at understanding and recovering from childhood abuse, and regularly using skills and tools to help his symptoms.

I feel optimistic that he will feel better and better as the years go on.

heartandwhole

[Survivor09]

Lucky Jim,

I probably shouldn't even respond to this post because I am so confused and uncertain as to what the answer is. However, I must say that from my experience with my BPDw, it doesn't appear as if she is willing to really take ownership for her problem. She has tried to give the impression that she wants and is actively pursuing help but I have discovered that she is neither honest or sincere. Just 2 weeks ago we had a blow up over some figment of her imagination. Later on she called me crying and saying that she was sorry and it was just her medication. I told her that she really needs to maintain her therapy and treatment. She began to cry even more and said "you know that I'm in therapy every week and as a matter of fact I was just at therapy yesterday and went back today." Well long story short, I spoke with the therapist on Friday and she told me that my wife had not been to therapy since sometime last year. The Therapist told me that my BPDw will more than likely never recover because she is unwilling to confront herself and she is committed to making up stories and pretending. She also said that her apologies and crying are probably not sincere, they are just another tactic of manipulation. The therapist then told me that I need to work on my ability to survive within my marriage to a BPDw.

There have been many times that I felt optimistic and hopeful because my BPDw demonstrated what I thought were signs of recovery and improvement but every time, I was let down by the harsh reality that it was only a period of time before the real her surfaced and the cycle continued. 

[Insom]

Can we differentiate between the desire to get better and ability to stay in treatment?  Since BPD causes sufferers tremendous pain, I'm sure there is a desire to get better or feel better.  (I know my ex suffered.)  But whether or not a sufferer is able to stick with treatment is another story. 

[wendydarling]

LJ – do pw/ BPD want to get better?  Is it personal to the person?  While there are some similarities we/they relate to, are there more differences, from what I have read, my life, yes.

You ask us what is our experience?  ... .my 29 year old daughter crashed 3 years ago, she told me in excruciating pain she wanted to get out of her body, she wanted it all to stop, 3rd degree burns.  

She was diagnosed – and co-morbid, as often -  depression, anxiety, psychosis, ED... .she hit rock bottom, her pain threshold - her words here are post DBT: When you hit rock bottom, you have two choices: You give up, or you say, enough is enough. And you start changing the way you’re thinking about things in your life and find a different way to make it better  As we all do in life LJ.

There is a difference though she’s determined to save her life, I hope she sees it through.

My daughter is gently reclaiming her life, exploring what works for her. She has family and friends supporting her who relate and understand what she’s been/going through. We are growing with her, she’s leading the way and she's passing on her learning and support to others, like we do here.

My daughter succeeded at school, university, first step in her career. Post DBT she's been able to share she knew from a young age things were not right.

LJ, I hope that helps, what's your experience been?

WDx

[Lucky Jim]

Hey wendydarling,

It's encouraging to hear that your daughter has made a commitment to her own health and is determined to save her own life, after what sounds like a horrific experience.  It's great that all of you are supporting her progress and understand what she's been through.

Unfortunately, my BPDxW was unable to reach that point of clarity and remained steadfast in denying that she needed help.  She made half-hearted attempts at seeing a T, and then would drop out after a handful of visits by blaming the T.

Unlike your daughter, my Ex lacked the capacity to see it through, which is why I posed my initial question to the group.

LJ

[babyducks]

Onceremoved raises a good point.   What’s better?   I have asthma.   It’s fairly well controlled by medications.   Am I cured/recovered?   No.   Am I better?  Most days, not all days.

I also have depression.  Life style changes and therapy have helped me quiet a vicious inner critic.   Same as with the asthma I am better most days, and it’s proportional and relational to where I was and where I want to be.

I see this differently.  I get uncomfortable when I see an entire group of people castigated for being in the group.    All basketball players are freakishly tall.   All _________ are greedy.   All _________ are lazy.    All __________ are drunks.     All _________ are thieves.    All mentally ill are hopeless.   

When I read pwBPD cannot ‘get better’ and pwBPD never try to get better, I see circular all or nothing black and white thinking.   Something we also call a symptom of disordered thinking.

When I read ‘my ex was so terrible with the BPD she will never get better or never try to get better’ inwardly I translate that to “see it really wasn’t my fault”.

It was my experience that there was a whole lot of uncomfortable blame and shame that flew around in my relationship.   I think it’s natural to try and shake out where some of that belongs.   I think there is a whole lot more nuance than Always X and Never Y.  All pwBPD do this,  No person with BPD ever does that... .

my relationship was a complex human relationship.   Probably the most complex one I have ever experienced.   I have found that simple answers do not serve me.   I have found that if I am truly strong enough to look I can find many more important answers.

from what I understand from my person with BPD is that the shame was often overwhelming, and that the shame and the desire to get better were some how related, perhaps flip sides of the same coin.    Certainly I know from watching her do it for years, trying to manage her mental health was one of the most gut wrenching and courageous things I have ever seen.

Unfortunately, my BPDxW was unable to reach that point of clarity and remained steadfast in denying that she needed help.  She made half-hearted attempts at seeing a T, and then would drop out after a handful of visits by blaming the T.

Unlike your daughter, my Ex lacked the capacity to see it through, which is why I posed my initial question to the group.

If I remember your story LJ,   you've been separated from your Ex for a while.   Can I ask how do you see your Ex denying that she needed help impacting you?    Was it /  is it sad?   Frustrating?   Validating that you did the best you could?   The line in the sand, the deal breaker that ended things for you?    As I said upstream,   my Ex was very compliant with her medical care plan.    even so she struggled.    If she had stopped her medications and refused treatment I am not sure how I would have felt.

How would they even know there was anything wrong with them?

Jeffree - they know.   why do you think they so frantically blame the people closest to them.

[Jeffree]

Jeffree - they know.   why do you think they so frantically blame the people closest to them.

Because they actually believe it.

J

[babyducks]

Jeffree - they know.   why do you think they so frantically blame the people closest to them.

Because they actually believe it.

J

Psychological projection is a  defense mechanism in which someone attributes thoughts, feelings, and ideas which are perceived as undesirable to someone else.

[SlyQQ]

Onceremoved raises a good point.   What’s better?   I have asthma.   It’s fairly well controlled by medications.   Am I cured/recovered?   No.   Am I better?  Most days, not all days.

I also have depression.  Life style changes and therapy have helped me quiet a vicious inner critic.   Same as with the asthma I am better most days, and it’s proportional and relational to where I was and where I want to be.

I see this differently.  I get uncomfortable when I see an entire group of people castigated for being in the group.    All basketball players are freakishly tall.   All _________ are greedy.   All _________ are lazy.    All __________ are drunks.     All _________ are thieves.    All mentally ill are hopeless.   

When I read pwBPD cannot ‘get better’ and pwBPD never try to get better, I see circular all or nothing black and white thinking.   Something we also call a symptom of disordered thinking.

When I read ‘my ex was so terrible with the BPD she will never get better or never try to get better’ inwardly I translate that to “see it really wasn’t my fault”.

It was my experience that there was a whole lot of uncomfortable blame and shame that flew around in my relationship.   I think it’s natural to try and shake out where some of that belongs.   I think there is a whole lot more nuance than Always X and Never Y.  All pwBPD do this,  No person with BPD ever does that... .

my relationship was a complex human relationship.   Probably the most complex one I have ever experienced.   I have found that simple answers do not serve me.   I have found that if I am truly strong enough to look I can find many more important answers.

from what I understand from my person with BPD is that the shame was often overwhelming, and that the shame and the desire to get better were some how related, perhaps flip sides of the same coin.    Certainly I know from watching her do it for years, trying to manage her mental health was one of the most gut wrenching and courageous things I have ever seen.

If I remember your story LJ,   you've been separated from your Ex for a while.   Can I ask how do you see your Ex denying that she needed help impacting you?    Was it /  is it sad?   Frustrating?   Validating that you did the best you could?   The line in the sand, the deal breaker that ended things for you?    As I said upstream,   my Ex was very compliant with her medical care plan.    even so she struggled.    If she had stopped her medications and refused treatment I am not sure how I would have felt.

Jeffree - they know.   why do you think they so frantically blame the people closest to them.

All people with BPD have BPD

[Panda39]

I think my SO's uBPDxw has a problem and she see's herself as a victim... .Reality she is both.  The difference between us is that I can see her perspective but she can't see mine.

She lost her home (evicted 3x), her husband, friends, one daughter is no contact and her other daughter is low contact.  She still doesn't see the common denominator with all of these problems is her.

I don't hold out a lot of hope that she will work on herself... .the last 8 years have been wash, rinse, repeat. Is it possible?  Anything is possible.

Panda39

[Lucky Jim]

As I said upstream,   my Ex was very compliant with her medical care plan.    even so she struggled.    If she had stopped her medications and refused treatment I am not sure how I would have felt.

Hey babyducks, It sounds like your situation was quite different from mine.  Unlike you, I had nothing to hold onto in terms of hope for improvement and things continued to go downhill as my Ex's symptoms intensified.  Plus, my Ex was abusive and violent, to the point that my T reported us to the State for possible child abuse, which proved groundless but was incredibly stressful during the investigation.

So, that was my experience.

LJ

[lighthouse9]

I think it depends on the person, the severity, their self-awareness, etc... .but... .

My ex really wanted to get better. Unfortunately I think I was the first person in her life to both call her out and try to support her. I've always modeled that therapy is ok and that it's ok to have your stuff, you just have to commit to not wrecking your life or anyone else's in the process. I had been talking about radical acceptance with her for a long time, but in the context of some longterm health issues I have from some injuries. When it was time to consider radical acceptance for herself, she struggled. We had days where she was so brave and so insightful and honest. Then we had days where she just yelled at me and projected. I haven't seen her since then and am very curious where she's at now. The last time I saw her, it was when I found out she was lying about going to DBT for 3 weeks. I didn't handle it well and would give anything to redo that moment. She said she was seeing a therapist, but I have no way to verify.

Did she want to get better? Yes. Was she ready to commit? I'm not so sure. This just might not be her moment.

[Skip]

I think, unequivocally, pwBPD suffer in life and would like to stop the suffering and get better. All the dysfunctional coping mechanisms are attempts at stopping the suffering. So is cutting and suicide.

Many of us have attachment issues (this is why we struggle with these relationships).  I think we all would to resolve that, too. Some of us get treatment and progress. Some do other things, like drinking.

I think the root of this question is more ":)o people want to change to meet our image and expectations of who they should be in in a relationship with us."

I think this is a very different question that reflect on us as well as our ex partner.

[Lucky Jim]

I think the root of this question is more ":)o people want to change to meet our image and expectations of who they should be in in a relationship with us."

Nicely put, Skip.  Yup, that gets to the heart of the matter.  LJ

[Jeffree]

Unlike you, I had nothing to hold onto in terms of hope for improvement and things continued to go downhill as my Ex's symptoms intensified.  Plus, my Ex was abusive and violent

Ditto here, LJ.

Did she want to get better? Yes. Was she ready to commit? I'm not so sure. This just might not be her moment.


I'm 99% sure that if this was ever posed to my STBx that she would first respond that she's not perfect and that there's nothing wrong with her that recovering from being with me couldn't cure.

Then, if somehow some way someone was able to convince her she needed actual help, she'd agree with everything and never actually go.

Mine was a master at paying lip service to the most important things only to never deliver on them.

J

[Jeffree]

":)o people want to change to meet our image and expectations of who they should be in in a relationship with us."

Maybe if they don't feel any better or successful after enough "US"es they begin to think there has to be a better way. So it's not us specifically, but a universal us image they try to meet in a relationship?

J

[SlyQQ]

key point here is get better if you have an amputated leg you don't get better,

you can get a prothesis and cope better, getting better is a fallacy

(you might even come to the opinion you are better off having only one leg and you wouldn't want a new leg even if you could)

my ex certainly at various stages was happy with her "condition" ( these always osillate but durring manic type episodes it was pretty uniform)