I should have just given her a slap after what she did

[Cromwell]

I still find it very hard to accept that despite all my research, the nomenclature for what I read time and time again points more to ; "whores" than anything that has been psychiatrised.

Wicker Man is correct about "KISS" acronymn.

I spent far too much time trying to build layers of complexity into her behaviour. I should have just given her a slap after what she did for the whore she is and my whole life would have gone on without being (nearly) reduced to mental shreds.

2018 and everyones a victim though. Everything has became obscured, the bully is actually the bullied and must be given compassion. My step son got bullied I told him to take the guy when hes on his own and lay into him, he did just that. It worked, he was left alone since then, despite the bullys mother running to the school to complain (they never proved anything) and trying to paint my step son as the aggressor. This is the system we live in, but at least I made sure my step son wasnt going to spend one more day feeling intimidated. I kept his self esteem in tact, because thats what worked in my days, and was accepted. Funny, I never came across a borderline back then, they were probably in an institute.

I feel as a guy, almost emasculated by this freak I was with, because I blocked out the things I should have done and replaced them with compassion and kindness. It quite rightfully signalled one thing; "stupidity" and that is where a lot of my anger comes from, trying to be this new-age nice guy.

She would have respected me far more for it than this faux attempts to "negotiate". My country has a policy it will never negotiate with terrorists - and that is exactly what she was, a terrorist, setting up random acts of explosive chaos for attention. I feel bad talking about her on these boards, it is akin to the media giving them the outlet to a wider audience reporting on what they have achieved. Yes I agree NC is the most effective thing, deny their existence. They may or may not have problems, sorry but thats what psychiatrists are for, not bringing other people down to the same level. I think that most of the "r/s" they have is a way of getting pseudo psychiatric help, we are emotional outlets for them. I have my own issues, I used her as a surrogate therapist, it scares me how much I have shared with her, simply because she mirrored this level of openness. looking back, this was a crazy dyad I entered into, I had my problems but being with her turned mole hills into mountains.

I could romanticise things and say that she pushed me away to save me from the damage, cheated on me as a way to push me away from further damage, yet I chose to stay and therefore I can only blame myself for what she did beyond that.

I could twist all that has happened and view it from a different perspective or lens each time, yet, "whore" makes sense the most, I can closure easiest on what actually makes sense. Not nice to accept, but at least it sits more squarely than the other alternatives, at least by accepting it can begin the route of travel towards digestion, catabolism and can pass through large intestine now when should have done years ago.

[Cromwell]

The only thing that I can forgive it for (even though she would never ask for forgiveness) is the complete bizareness of her behaviour. Yes she knew what she was doing but each time it was done with that buzz of impulsivity and I believe in her case, the cheating was part of a way of lifting her from the depression it was the same as a shoplifter who gets a buzz stealing, just another addition to the cluster of thrill seeking reckless behaviour. Then when she would come back to me its the thrill of basically cheating on the other guy and also enjoying to have this "secret" over it.

basically I see her as a complete sad case, not just a C but the worst C ive ever came across. Ive never had anyone make me feel so angry, yet at the same time, unable to do anything about it (due to accepting she has a condition and giving a huge benefit of the doubt that the behaviour is linked to it).

I only really got angry far into the months of NC where I started to allow myself to, a good thing, because if I had done it during the r/s I wouldnt be getting on with my life like I am now and besides, shes got enough enemies as it is.

I tried to be nice, I didnt try to be nasty because I knew she would have liked me to and used it to alleviate the guilt she had and also validate when she painted me black. painting black does not equal that thing being inherently black, it needs validation, its why they practically provoke to the limits for us to react the wrong way.

If they did any crime and ended up in court, their BPD diagnosis would not be an excuse whatsoever. I dont see why I should let it be. She knew what she was doing, despite being carried away on a wave of what id refer more to as "thrill seeking control taking" emotion.

What this board has helped me the most is to take it less personally, add some benefit of the doubt in and realise others have been in the same boat.

I got the green shoots of some much needed peace and serenity towards the 8th month of NC, I really started to feel I had got over it all and my life in good direction, then she returns and even though has done nothing wrong to me in this small space of time, what she did to me and my family over the years I realise has made an underlying rage of my own, that im not allowed to release in BPD style, im not allowed that luxury.

Im tempted to text her, bomb her with all the abuse that I can that will dysregulate her, I know exactly what to say, and she can destroy her own kitchen this time, but (sharp intake of breath) I have tried so hard today to remember that she isnt worth it, im going to be the mature one and just continue to leave her alone, i know it will backfire on me if not in practical terms (yes she can be dangerous with her grudges) its more to do with not wanting to lower myself, I know the end result I will feel bad about it and ill find away to let the anger dissipate itself somehow else. If it doesnt, I will just let my sister take care of her.

 I sincerely hope that she does realise that this is a worse message than when I ghosted her before, I have her number and never care to ask how she is, or when she complains about her low mood, I dont respond. Its not mind games as such, it is about controlling my own urge to have contact, she knows how much I felt about her, she will realise that not contacting her again is a complete change of character from the person she had me "figured out" as. Im showing her to herself what I think of her, a waste of time and teaching her that there is no point sending me the pity messages or even the sweet ones, ill just wait a few hours and reply with a completely different subject, about myself, and nothing emotional.

I will starve her away with banality, nothing to get excited about, but not abandoning either and also no information of my private life that she can make any use out of.

Sure I am angry at the moment, but its good, it was underlying and needs some outlet. Ive listened to people here who say I should have compassion, I have done, its why I refrain from letting it out on her, I give her the benefit of the doubt. Thats the whole problem with walking on eggshells for such a long period of time, not able to be honest or expect honesty in return, it gets stored up it didnt just evaporate. During the r/s it gets internalised and no wonder I got so physically and mentally ill during it, particularly towards the end.

Wicker Man is correct, I have no obligation to her anymore, dodged the bullet of marriage and kids, (when she said she was praying for me, I think that this must have been the divine intervention!) I need to accept within myself that I dont owe this person the time of day, and my thoughts and couldnt care less of what she makes of her life anymore, yet over-caring and being over protective for so long I conditioned myself to being so. She encouraged it, its nothing to do about being a people pleaser, and she has tried now again to press those same buttons. I want to meet someone else but can only do so once this bitterness and anger is away, theres no way im carrying this forward.

She was shocked out her shoes when I confronted her on the bus and her behavior wasnt pre-set it was "sheepish". She then contacted me the afternoon of the next day with her number saying how nice it was to see me again. All the characteristics of a guilty person, anyone with a backbone who hadnt done wrong would have rightfully not been interested in someone who would just ghost them after a 3 year r/s. The biggest clue is when I told her I was sorry for ghosting her, she never replied "thats ok, but why did you do it"? which is the expected normal thing to do.

guilty as charged, maybe not "beyond a reasonable doubt" but good enough for me.

good enough for any normal minded person, and all the friends who I spoke to. The only thing is that they dont ever get punished for what they do, at best they just parasite move on to the next (she calls) "gullible" host. The only reason I dont feel too bitter is that I did get a great deal of faux happiness happiness out of the r/s, she was sly when it came to the nasty things she was doing and the stalking, she made sure at least that if she did continue to cheat on me, she never let me find out after the first antics. But when I weigh it all up, I wish id never have met this Worst C and worst of all I wish idve detached earlier, but she was a very convincing liar, reason being she lived in psychosis and believed her own lies.

Struggler, lets live in a place of logic, if you were so happy and overjoyed by your fiancee why would you waste your time trying to contact your previous r/s? They are commitment phobes, the reality is dawning on her, expect to get used as a way for her to sabotage what she has just got herself into.

Shawnlam, i have learned about BPD, I have a PD myself which in some way IS innate empathy. Sure I might not have that degree of lack of impulse control but ultimately yes, they are aware of what they are doing, aware it is wrong (as in, against an established moral code) yet do it anyway. The reasons and justification for it are either manufactured directly before or after the event and dont require to be built on facts but built on emotion. When my ex needed me and felt the world was against her, I was the best invention since sliced bread. When she got too emotional close and felt engulfed, it was time to provoke me for a reaction or to dredge up some imagined sleight I had done to her, possibly months or even years ago that I could barely recognise, or that anyone would regard as trivial, but it became in her hands useful ammunition.

For some reason I feel really sick about it all, today especially, like the vomit bucket needs emptied. I urge anyone who finds themselves at an early stage in this to seriously consider what they might be letting themselves in for. Ive probably shared 10% of it and by what ive read on here thank god I hadnt gone further I dont know how others have managed, stockholm syndrome was already setting in for me, I think thats a likely answer.

This board encourages to look at the angle of what role I played in the r/s, that is fair comment, I unwittingly enabled her to act out in her worst C ways. Thats about it, if anyone without that disorder would have been treated the same way by me they would have appreciated it. I feel stupid for turning people away that wanted to at the time, I now need to get better in order to pursue a normal r/s again, just like BPD dont heal overnight, the ones who have encountered them have newly found trauma to work through that cant just be airbrushed away.

Shawnlam is/was a victim, anyone in this r/s is a defacto victim. Is there a single account of anyone in a BPD relationship that hasnt been to one degree or another? Not that ive came across in the hundreds of accounts ive read (yes hundreds).

I just realised im on the detaching from a failed relationship. Thats where Im at now. I want to get to the day that I can go on the bus and not feel the need to feel anything different about her than any other person on it.

Thanks for reading I feel much better.

[Struggler123]

The only thing that I can forgive it for (even though she would never ask for forgiveness) is the complete bizareness of her behaviour. Yes she knew what she was doing but each time it was done with that buzz of impulsivity and I believe in her case, the cheating was part of a way of lifting her from the depression it was the same as a shoplifter who gets a buzz stealing, just another addition to the cluster of thrill seeking reckless behaviour. Then when she would come back to me its the thrill of basically cheating on the other guy and also enjoying to have this "secret" over it.

basically I see her as a complete sad case, not just a C but the worst C ive ever came across. Ive never had anyone make me feel so angry, yet at the same time, unable to do anything about it (due to accepting she has a condition and giving a huge benefit of the doubt that the behaviour is linked to it).

I only really got angry far into the months of NC where I started to allow myself to, a good thing, because if I had done it during the r/s I wouldnt be getting on with my life like I am now and besides, shes got enough enemies as it is.

I tried to be nice, I didnt try to be nasty because I knew she would have liked me to and used it to alleviate the guilt she had and also validate when she painted me black. painting black does not equal that thing being inherently black, it needs validation, its why they practically provoke to the limits for us to react the wrong way.

If they did any crime and ended up in court, their BPD diagnosis would not be an excuse whatsoever. I dont see why I should let it be. She knew what she was doing, despite being carried away on a wave of what id refer more to as "thrill seeking control taking" emotion.

What this board has helped me the most is to take it less personally, add some benefit of the doubt in and realise others have been in the same boat.

I got the green shoots of some much needed peace and serenity towards the 8th month of NC, I really started to feel I had got over it all and my life in good direction, then she returns and even though has done nothing wrong to me in this small space of time, what she did to me and my family over the years I realise has made an underlying rage of my own, that im not allowed to release in BPD style, im not allowed that luxury.

Im tempted to text her, bomb her with all the abuse that I can that will dysregulate her, I know exactly what to say, and she can destroy her own kitchen this time, but (sharp intake of breath) I have tried so hard today to remember that she isnt worth it, im going to be the mature one and just continue to leave her alone, i know it will backfire on me if not in practical terms (yes she can be dangerous with her grudges) its more to do with not wanting to lower myself, I know the end result I will feel bad about it and ill find away to let the anger dissipate itself somehow else. If it doesnt, I will just let my sister take care of her.

 I sincerely hope that she does realise that this is a worse message than when I ghosted her before, I have her number and never care to ask how she is, or when she complains about her low mood, I dont respond. Its not mind games as such, it is about controlling my own urge to have contact, she knows how much I felt about her, she will realise that not contacting her again is a complete change of character from the person she had me "figured out" as. Im showing her to herself what I think of her, a waste of time and teaching her that there is no point sending me the pity messages or even the sweet ones, ill just wait a few hours and reply with a completely different subject, about myself, and nothing emotional.

I will starve her away with banality, nothing to get excited about, but not abandoning either and also no information of my private life that she can make any use out of.

Sure I am angry at the moment, but its good, it was underlying and needs some outlet. Ive listened to people here who say I should have compassion, I have done, its why I refrain from letting it out on her, I give her the benefit of the doubt. Thats the whole problem with walking on eggshells for such a long period of time, not able to be honest or expect honesty in return, it gets stored up it didnt just evaporate. During the r/s it gets internalised and no wonder I got so physically and mentally ill during it, particularly towards the end.

Wicker Man is correct, I have no obligation to her anymore, dodged the bullet of marriage and kids, (when she said she was praying for me, I think that this must have been the divine intervention!) I need to accept within myself that I dont owe this person the time of day, and my thoughts and couldnt care less of what she makes of her life anymore, yet over-caring and being over protective for so long I conditioned myself to being so. She encouraged it, its nothing to do about being a people pleaser, and she has tried now again to press those same buttons. I want to meet someone else but can only do so once this bitterness and anger is away, theres no way im carrying this forward.

She was shocked out her shoes when I confronted her on the bus and her behavior wasnt pre-set it was "sheepish". She then contacted me the afternoon of the next day with her number saying how nice it was to see me again. All the characteristics of a guilty person, anyone with a backbone who hadnt done wrong would have rightfully not been interested in someone who would just ghost them after a 3 year r/s. The biggest clue is when I told her I was sorry for ghosting her, she never replied "thats ok, but why did you do it"? which is the expected normal thing to do.

guilty as charged, maybe not "beyond a reasonable doubt" but good enough for me.

good enough for any normal minded person, and all the friends who I spoke to. The only thing is that they dont ever get punished for what they do, at best they just parasite move on to the next (she calls) "gullible" host. The only reason I dont feel too bitter is that I did get a great deal of faux happiness happiness out of the r/s, she was sly when it came to the nasty things she was doing and the stalking, she made sure at least that if she did continue to cheat on me, she never let me find out after the first antics. But when I weigh it all up, I wish id never have met this Worst C and worst of all I wish idve detached earlier, but she was a very convincing liar, reason being she lived in psychosis and believed her own lies.

Struggler, lets live in a place of logic, if you were so happy and overjoyed by your fiancee why would you waste your time trying to contact your previous r/s? They are commitment phobes, the reality is dawning on her, expect to get used as a way for her to sabotage what she has just got herself into.

Shawnlam, i have learned about BPD, I have a PD myself which in some way IS innate empathy. Sure I might not have that degree of lack of impulse control but ultimately yes, they are aware of what they are doing, aware it is wrong (as in, against an established moral code) yet do it anyway. The reasons and justification for it are either manufactured directly before or after the event and dont require to be built on facts but built on emotion. When my ex needed me and felt the world was against her, I was the best invention since sliced bread. When she got too emotional close and felt engulfed, it was time to provoke me for a reaction or to dredge up some imagined sleight I had done to her, possibly months or even years ago that I could barely recognise, or that anyone would regard as trivial, but it became in her hands useful ammunition.

For some reason I feel really sick about it all, today especially, like the vomit bucket needs emptied. I urge anyone who finds themselves at an early stage in this to seriously consider what they might be letting themselves in for. Ive probably shared 10% of it and by what ive read on here thank god I hadnt gone further I dont know how others have managed, stockholm syndrome was already setting in for me, I think thats a likely answer.

This board encourages to look at the angle of what role I played in the r/s, that is fair comment, I unwittingly enabled her to act out in her worst C ways. Thats about it, if anyone without that disorder would have been treated the same way by me they would have appreciated it. I feel stupid for turning people away that wanted to at the time, I now need to get better in order to pursue a normal r/s again, just like BPD dont heal overnight, the ones who have encountered them have newly found trauma to work through that cant just be airbrushed away.

Shawnlam is/was a victim, anyone in this r/s is a defacto victim. Is there a single account of anyone in a BPD relationship that hasnt been to one degree or another? Not that ive came across in the hundreds of accounts ive read (yes hundreds).

I just realised im on the detaching from a failed relationship. Thats where Im at now. I want to get to the day that I can go on the bus and not feel the need to feel anything different about her than any other person on it.

Thanks for reading I feel much better.

Cromwell, what I respect most about you is that you speak from the headt. Theres no idea of holding back on your feelings and I’m glad you speak your mind. I’m sorry for the trauma you went through. My ex had a lot of BPD traits that I would ignore. I always liked to think she only truly really loved me, and I was wrong because her feelings changed a lot. If she really did, she wouldnt have just said yes to someone in 3 days and blame it on me. I know for a fact that, if I had gone through with everything her demands would have kept increasing until I had nothing left to give. But, I forgave her for my sense of mind. What happened to you should never have happened, but for you to be at peace, you have to truly believe you did everything if not more, and I wish it was enough but she didnt appreciate it and you know what it was her loss. Its like they say, you dont know what you got till its gone. You should start fresh, and with it let all that anger go to so you dont carry it into the next relationship. My ex contacted me several times but I still didnt give in and im sure soon enough I’ll be painted black once no response comes.  I completely agree if she is so happy in her engaged life then why contact your ex, I saw the way she had no remorse, when I called her for closure. It was almost as if everything I said was being mirrored and the blame was still on me, because I wasnt able to fulfill her needs. But, you know she was still doing me a favor by talking to me and trying to be friends. Who would want that kind of pity, when you can put your heart on a platter and the person still says like no sorry, i want the one with seasoning.

[Wicker Man]

I must object to the Subject of this thread.  I simply cannot condone the idea of striking a woman.  Sure you are angry, but down deep you must agree violence is never the answer.  I understand the passion your anger aroused, but words have meaning and words have power.  Instead of 'given her a slap' perhaps 'walked away sooner' would better serve here.

"whores" than anything that has been psychiatrised.

A lot of us here have a lot of anger and hurt.  We trusted and got burned.  Yes -I believe ':)ream Come True' will likely use her beauty to begin her next relationship, which will also likely end tragically.  I feel actual painful grief and pity for her.  No matter how much I was hurt in our relationship, as a 'healthy' individual I cannot even begin to imagine the pain she feels as someone who suffers from BPD. 

Sure... .I couldn't eat, I couldn't sleep.  Hell!  I could take an ambien and a xanax and wake up after 2 hours.  I was drinking too much and still sleep would not come.  However, I never felt crushing darkness, time itself slow to a stop, and a searing pain which could only be relieved by cutting myself.  She lives with a darkness I will never ever truly know.

I spent far too much time trying to build layers of complexity into her behaviour. I should have just given her a slap after what she did for the whore she is and my whole life would have gone on without being (nearly) reduced to mental shreds.

I am going to be brutal here.  We stayed in the relationship -the emotional chains we bore were of our own creation.  You may not blame her for this.

My step son got bullied I told him to take the guy when hes on his own and lay into him, he did just that. It worked

I understand the analogy, but I feel it is flawed.  Your stepson was not voluntary putting himself into a relationship with this bully.  Violence is a tool of last resort.  I spent 30 years learning how to fight -hands, stick, knife and a bit of gun training.  The lesson I learned was --don't fight.  I learned pacifism through combat training.  When turning the other cheek and running doesn't work anymore -sure it is good to have a 'Plan B'.  (As a Post Script I am glad your step son was able to stand up for himself -not easy for a kid.)

"Every battle is won before it’s ever fought" Sun Tzu (again)

I feel as a guy, almost emasculated by this freak I was with, because I blocked out the things I should have done and replaced them with compassion and kindness. It quite rightfully signalled one thing; "stupidity" and that is where a lot of my anger comes from, trying to be this new-age nice guy.

Compassion is not a weakness!  We did the best we could at the time with the information we had.  In 20/20 hindsight, yep... .I would have done things differently, but I was in love or better put I was in a state of limerence.  It was all consuming.

I embarrassed myself epically.  I hurt a lot of people very deeply.  'Stupid' is a fine word, if not a bit weak when describing my actions.  I am still a nice guy and will remain so -it is my strength and not my weakness.  I will work on my codependency, but will not lose my kindness and compassion.

She would have respected me far more for it than this faux attempts to "negotiate".

I cannot see the world through the lens of someone suffering from BPD -but I don't think tough love would have been received well.  I have begun reading about CBT and DBT -these seem to be the only paths to salvation for someone afflicted with BPD.  fighting fire with fire would have only resulted in more fire, not clarity.

I feel bad talking about her on these boards, it is akin to the media giving them the outlet to a wider audience reporting on what they have achieved.

My hope in sharing my story here is to, through having to articulate it in writing, gain some level of understanding.  Understanding will hopefully allow acceptance, the final stage of grief.  --Enlightenment is the end of suffering.

I have my own issues, I used her as a surrogate therapist, it scares me how much I have shared with her, simply because she mirrored this level of openness. looking back, this was a crazy dyad I entered into, I had my problems but being with her turned mole hills into mountains.

I felt true love and shared everything with her, my fears, my hopes and my dreams.  Of all the regrets I have, being open with her is not among them.  We were trying to begin something bigger than both of us.  Yes, I misunderstood her.  Yes, I was being mirrored, and yes our relationship was the single biggest mistake of my life, but I was doing the best I could in the moment.

I could romanticise things and say that she pushed me away to save me from the damage, cheated on me as a way to push me away from further damage... .

You are implying she had intent -perhaps yours did.  Mine seems to have been drowning in darkness and reaching out for a life preserver -a knight in shining armor.  Dream Come True cheated on me, but it was likely out of disrepair -I do not think I was considered in those moments in the slightest. 

In fact, if my assumption is correct the last time she cut herself was after she slipped up and slept with an ex.  I now believe she was in a state of disassociation called him and after she realized what she had done she fell into dysphoria and cut herself. --all speculation of course. (this is the 'who took the picture' incident)

I could twist all that has happened and view it from a different perspective or lens each time, yet, "whore" makes sense the most, I can closure easiest on what actually makes sense.

Anger is certainly one of the five stages of grief.  Anger is healthy and necessary, but please consider it a stepping stone to acceptance. 


Wicker Man

[Wicker Man]

Cromwell you and I have used Sun Tzu quite a bit during our discourse.

I have what might amount to a parable.

On Saturday I was riding in the mountains.  I had to pass another rider, as I wished to be alone on the trail.  Sulphur Mountain is a long relentless uphill climb.

He appeared to be an insurmountable 'enemy'. I observed he was younger than me, in terrific shape and had a better bike.  He was the 'formless and silent enemy (other than saying 'good morning'... .likely a trick anyway... .clever ass).  I did not know this enemy, and thus I was doomed to failure.

I thought about this and realized he is not the enemy!  I had misunderstood the battle.  The enemy was my own physical pain. 

The battlefield -the mountain. The enemy --my pain.  Now I had everything I needed to succeed in this war.  I know myself, the battlefield and the enemy. 

I accepted my pain, acknowledged it and respected it.  In cycling this is done my keeping one's cadence and breathing in check.  Stay in the right gear and don't lash out passionately.  Stay calm and steady.  Don't attack the hill -be smart.

If I had any hope of success I needed to ignore the actions of the other rider completely and focus on the real battle -the battle within myself.  I needed to run the best race I could -win or lose

Did I ultimately out ride him on Saturday?  Did she lie to me?  Both questions are equally irrelevant.

In riding the pain is very straight forward lactic acid -physical discomfort.  After a failed relationship the pain is psychological discomfort and far from straight forward --but I believe it is best to focus inward rather than on our ex relationship partners


Wicker Man

[Cromwell]

Thankyou Wicker Man

You put things more into perspective with me, actually I have thought recently of my own pain and tried to find some way of measuring it against hers, i then started to feel guilty.

Yes, she created a lot of mental trauma, but I get this feeling that like you said, whilst she intended in hurting me at times (she always did so when she was drunk) it does have a lot to do with my own personality, im a very emotional and sensitive person to start with. So whatever she did, and yes it was callous and cruel by any baseline, it was amplified in me.

Whether she regretted or felt some guilt for whatever momentary time after, it didnt do much to help me during the r/s. To give some indication, everything I write about her is post-relationship, the moods I go through now are as a result of that. But can you imagine what it was like to still be in the r/s and each new day is a new unknown scenario? Will it be one of the days to crystallise into memory and always look back on with happiness or will it be one of the worst living nightmares.

 Ive never once hit a woman, had no reason to, in this r/s it never crossed my mind regardless of her temper tantrums/psychotic rages (I knew the best thing/safest thing was to just let her run out of steam) and very often she would burst into tears after. id never hit her, but she makes me feel I should kick the other guy in twice maybe three times rather than once. (I do actually regret this too, he got his own comeuppance dramatically soon later anyway, regardless of what I did).

So why this thread (I never actually created it but i think its worth explaining), it crossed my mind that it would have been a conclusion to the relationship where i wouldnt have had to go through as much damage as I did. She would have ridiculed me with the cheating, a quick slap and the r/s is over, instead it went on and whilst the good times were amazing, the bad times got worse. The closer to the marriage and kids idea was coming to fruition, the crazier she got, I understand now I didnt back then.  I feel a great deal of injustice but for some reason I do seem to be coming to terms with it far easier than before.

I think my outbursts of anger past few days have been nicotine withdrawls. Violence is a form of power, albeit, the lowest form. Im not a thug, I dont condone it, im just trying to think of every possibility that things could have worked out differently than they did. Im not sure even why im doing this, I feel like im trying to re-write history because I cant accept still the ptsd of certain moments. I was rarely angry with her, the most would be a snippy text, rare even then over 3 years. Yet I allowed a volcano to bubble inside of me. despite the physical advantage, ive seen her rages, it would terrify me of what she could be capable of doing if I did anything to provoke it.

There werent even times where I felt to hit her during the r/s, not even subdue her, I was actually scared of her, despite being at a clear physical advantage. She never threatened me except once and i did react to that verbally and she changed her tune almost instantly, that was when she gave me the "you know I think your really smart" compliment.

Actually come to think of it, the only time I made the biggest revelations into what she was up to was when i got her, unwittingly, very angry, and probably inadvertently hit her ego and she couldnt mask anymore. I maybe should have done this more intentionally, but then again, all I wanted was a peaceful, loving, harmonius relationship and a nice home, I wanted and did work hard to help her towards things which would progress her life (car, driving lessons) wanting her to build up self esteem and feel more independent. I stopped all of those plans when she cheated on me, for some weird reason she actually didnt like when I would buy her gifts, the actually giving to her, the gifts she cherished.

Quid pro Quo hard-wired in.

I do like to think in some ways I helped her see life differently in the r/s, maybe thats just wishful thinking and tryng hard to justify some sort of value to what ive been through.

Very confused times Wicker Man, but thank you for your post, you have a certain way of making me see things clearer.

[Cromwell]

Cromwell you and I have used Sun Tzu quite a bit during our discourse.

I have what might amount to a parable.

On Saturday I was riding in the mountains.  I had to pass another rider, as I wished to be alone on the trail.  Sulphur Mountain is a long relentless uphill climb.

The battlefield -the mountain. The enemy --my pain.  Now I had everything I needed to succeed in this war.  I know myself, the battlefield and the enemy. 

I accepted my pain, acknowledged it and respected it.  In cycling this is done my keeping one's cadence and breathing in check.  Stay in the right gear and don't lash out passionately.  Stay calm and steady.  Don't attack the hill -be smart.

If I had any hope of success I needed to ignore the actions of the other rider completely and focus on the real battle -the battle within myself.  I needed to run the best race I could -win or lose

Did I ultimately out ride him on Saturday?  Did she lie to me?  Both questions are equally irrelevant.

In riding the pain is very straight forward lactic acid -physical discomfort.  After a failed relationship the pain is psychological discomfort and far from straight forward --but I believe it is best to focus inward rather than on our ex relationship partners

Really pleased to hear you are sticking to this, I found exercise could turn a bad day into average, or an average day into a good one. It is an excellent practical tool. please keep it going. 

[Skip]

I have my own issues, I used her as a surrogate therapist, it scares me how much I have shared with her, simply because she mirrored this level of openness. looking back, this was a crazy dyad I entered into, I had my problems but being with her turned mole hills into mountains.

Cromwell, you are 385 posts in a no one knows your story outside of a few snippets and the highly emotionally charged words like "whore, freak, terrorist". This is empty stuff.  "I should have slapped her"... .doesn't mean anything.

You have also mentioned "your own personality disoder", but again, we know nothing about it; empty stuff.

A story. I was attacked by a pack of viscous, savage dogs and it was a horrific experience that I will never get over. The dogs are monsters. If I had a gun i would have ended it for once and for all.

What am I talking about?

Story A. My neighbors three Maltese puppies got out from under the fence and ran over and jumped up on my leg. It's a good thing that I had jeans on or they would have scratched my leg and I bruise easily. I have been fearful of dogs ever since I was bitten as a child. The fence next door still has a hole under it where they can get out again.

Story B. My 4'11" grandmother was mauled by two 100 pound Argentine Mastiffs and lost her eye as I witness the whole thing in her driveway. I froze in fear of being next. The police tracked down and killed the dogs one block over.

My point? Facts matter. They matter a lot. Both of the stories above are true stories (not about me) and were described using basically the same emotioanl  verbiage.  As you can image, the support that each of those people needed was very different.

In a support group we have to be emotionally open and intellectually honest.  The primary reason that we are anonymous is so that we can speak freely and without the social fears we have in our own families and social circles.

While I know its not intentional, telling our stories with extreme imagery and bias is actually manipulative and counter productive to our own heeling.

You are free to tell the unvarnished, embellished, factual truth here and get honest, frank and compassionate support. We all want to help you feel valued, feel hope, be cenetered... .and at times, shake you with perspective if you are getting lost in your own emotions.

Make sense?

[Cromwell]

Hi Skip

Yes I do understand where you are coming from. The people who have helped me here, cumulatively, probably mean more to me than my ex. I came to this website out of desperation, at a time when the stalking was in full blown. She knows that I did research into her condition towards the end of the r/s, how much, I dont know, but to say I was unnerved by it all was an understatement, it had the stress related effect of getting to enjoy sharing a short period of psychosis (ironically, gaining more empathy with my ex), and I told her how I was feeling, it seemed to ramp up the behaviour, then alternate towards caring for me and being worried about me. The only time I have ever felt close to that, was back in my teenage years, when I went through the worst scenario with my parents - who in retrospect - have shown me that in all likelihood I was brought up by a borderline mother.

This is the first time ive felt the need to share something that I didnt want to accept, that my childhood upbringing created a personality disorder: non specified.

I shrugged it off as psycho-babble and never went through the therapy, despite in hindsight, realising that it actually was helping. Indeed, it was my parents who encouraged me to stay away from it, there was nothing wrong with me, or my upbringing (the last part not stated, just blantantly obvious).

Coming to this site and sharing that has not been out of courage, it was bourne and in many ways still is, out of necessity and desperation. I might have thought of myself as a strong enough person to put up with my ex, because I had a whole childhood of practice, I didnt feel I needed any "tools". I chose to be with her when I had a multitude of other partners, equally attractive to me, one of them felt very upset that I was so attracted to and had strong feelings for someone who, "doesnt give a ___ about you". this was before we had a proper r/s which was created more due to circumstances at the time where she was in desperate need, as opposed to her choosing me, as she had that opportunity when we were in our own circle of friends, id always shown her that interest, so was happy when it eventually happened and disregarded those who I had the chance to have had avoided this trauma.

My ex doesnt even know I have a PD, I wasnt interested in talking to her about the past as much as she was interested to a point I found unnerving. This all added to her paranoia and was the result of her extensive intrusion into all my friends, past and present and my family, even friends I had made abroad, to try her best to uncover everything. She couldnt, my parents are no longer here and if I would have introduced her to them if they were alive, they would have seen through her from day 1 and there wouldnt have been a r/s at all, my parents regardless of everything else, especially my udBPD mother, literally could read a person like a book.

I lost the ego, I had to, by being with my ex. The aftermath of it ended up revealing so much to me about myself and also how I ended up with her, choosing her and not others, also my previous r/s which were excellent on the face of it, yet I sabotaged them each time through a feeling of not being worthy. I gravitated to her because she was a stigmatised person too, had huge issues too, and I had this romantic notion that because she identified so closely to me that as wicker man says "love conquers all". Ive done more research into her condition, in the vain hope of improving it despite the tragedy of what she did, than I have on my own. I dont know what PD:not specified means beyond that im probably an unhealthy mix of all of them combined, my condition is so advanced and complex it hasnt even been discovered yet.

It is so unhealthy and damaging that I am still to this day able to "love" a person based more on their capacity to be nasty, chaotic and volatile, than to write them off straight away. That whilst I experienced the drama, it didnt phase me to the extent it should have and its absence in my previous r/s made me unsettled, uncomfortable and the kindness and love towards me felt eventually claustraphobic and suspicious. Just like my ex wondered why i would stay, put up the nastiness or abuse or whatever, stay with an ill person, I thought the same, at least inwardly.

For days I have felt what was some clarity, to let the anger out, then today a few texts and im loving her all over again, hoping that the pain of what she did will be in the long term diminished, part of history and replaced my new happier times. My rational logic (based on facts) mind says im probably just been manipulated like a cat playing with a mouse for round 3, probably because she "lost" the previous one. But because I cant prove this, and cant seem to find the art-of-letting-go, im prepared to risk that because at least if I see her in real life it is a more comforting substitute for theorising about her past or talking about her 300+ posts in here.

Her words "we will be together, forever", doesnt specify exactly in what capacity, they haunt me and at the same time I have the latent desire to want it to be so.

I never felt closer to a person I could share my feelings with, who appeared on the surface to fully empathise and reciprocate back with "i know exactly how you feel". Its what I meant with surrogate therapist, she shared her issues and told me I was one of the very people she could trust. Yet when she raged against me, she took all her newfound knowledge of my weakness and concentrated her strength into those parts. Betrayal of the cheating ended up being something I make a deal about, but becomes almost inconsequential in the big picture of how things went on. For her personally was like shawnlam said, was the equivalent of getting a cup of coffee for her, it was my reaction to it that drew her apparently closer, the proof that I cared about her so much to [silently forgive] it, yet she knew that it tortured me inside. I did more in those 3 years for her than the combined efforts of her parents and all previous r/s combined, not out of competitiveness or ego, but just because I wanted to. She told me herself she cant handle me. It didnt make as much sense back then as it does now. Or maybe a little knowledge is a dangerous thing and im just kidding myself that I know anything of whats going on in her mind.

Regardless of it all, im grateful to this board and am appreciative. If Im not fully disclosing the fine details of what happened, a big part is that I hate "confessing" what happened, sharing with others, because how can I look this person in the face and put myself into that "zone of happy go lucky" person she knows me as, when ive just revealed what a tyrant, whore, sadistic freak, (insert word of the day), what I came to really start to see her as once the tinted glasses come off. Its taking away an illusion that gave me comfort, just how Wicker Man said his BP dropped and he felt a serenity, it was the same, she was the soothing balm for an already tortured soul.

I need a break from this forum for awhile, dont worry, ill be taking my medication, im well prepared now for this open mental hospital we seem to live in. 

[Skip]

My ex doesnt even know I have a PD, I wasnt interested in talking to her about the past... //... I dont know what PD:not specified means beyond that im probably an unhealthy mix of all of them combined, my condition is so advanced and complex it hasnt even been discovered yet.

To understand Personality disorder not otherwise specified (also known as personality disorder NOS or PDNOS), it helps to understand how personality disorders are diagnosed via the DSM-IV. Step 1 is to look across a number of mental conditions for a best fit. Personality Disorder (in general) is one option.  If that is the best fit, the clinician can diagnose "Personality disorder not otherwise specified" or they can try to get more specific and pick one of the personality disorders. There are practical issues (insurance, stigma, etc) why a clinician might not go beyond "Personality disorder not otherwise specified". There are also clinical reasons why, not the least of which is the very high percentage of co-morbidities; for example, 74% of people with BPD have another personalty disorder. Another possibility is that you do not neatly fit one category, clearly.
https://bpdfamily.com/content/what-borderline-personality-disorder

It doesn't mean more severe or less. It doesn't mean traits of all.

The DSM committee proposed that the essential features of a personality disorder are impairments in personality (self and interpersonal). To diagnose personality disorder, the following criteria must be met:

Self (impairment in at least 1):

Identity: Experience of oneself as unique, with clear boundaries between self and others; stability of self-esteem and accuracy of self-appraisal; capacity for, and ability to regulate, a range of emotional experience.  To be rated from healthy functioning (Level = 0) to extreme impairment (Level = 4).

Self-direction: Pursuit of coherent and meaningful short-term and life goals; utilization of constructive and prosocial internal standards of behavior; ability to self-reflect productively.   To be rated from healthy functioning (Level = 0) to extreme impairment (Level = 4).

Interpersonal (impairment in at least 1):

Empathy*: Comprehension and appreciation of others’ experiences and motivations; tolerance of differing perspectives; understanding of the effects of own behavior on others.    To be rated from healthy functioning (Level = 0) to extreme impairment (Level = 4).

Intimacy*: Depth and duration of positive connections with others; desire and capacity for closeness; mutuality of regard reflected in interpersonal behavior.   To be rated from healthy functioning (Level = 0) to extreme impairment (Level = 4).
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=114843.0

So Chrom, if you have PD traits, or depression (74% of members do), you are a man who lives with some cognitive distortions... .at least in the short term (e.g., during active depression, for example). These are the 10 common distortions:

1. All-or-nothing thinking
2. Overgeneralization
3. Mental Filter
4. Discounting the positive
5. Jumping to conclusions
6. Magnification
7. Emotional Reasoning
8. "Should" statements
9. Labeling
10. Personalization and Blame
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=56199.0

Do you see yourself in any of these? I do. Remembers your idea a week ago about re-engaging your ex-gf in a relationship to try an reverse engineer the painful experience you have and put her through it (as a social experiment for the members here)?  You discussed the pleasure you found in causing her emotional pain in the past (18 months ago) and your feelings that doing more of this might give you closure.  

I applaud your emotional honesty. That is really needed to heal. But at the same time, you are dancing around with some pretty non-constructive thoughts/ideas of how to move forward.

This is why it is really important to tell us factual story (like m example above) because member can help you see where you may be misreading things. This is why we want to move past interpretive descriptions like "monster" and get to factual terms like Maltese puppies or Argentine mastiffs.

I think the most important step in making sense of this situation would be drop the "interpretive descriptions" for a little while and tell your story factually and get help with the interpretations.

It's making yourself vulnerable to people who may want to center you view of things and that us hard... .but that is healing.  And if it gets too hard on any day, you can alsways take the night off and re-calibrate.

I really encourage you to be bold and get in the game.

[Cromwell]

Hi Skip

That made a lot of sense to me, thank you.

I dont feel depressed I felt great and the anxiety besides the stress of every day life had almost gone too.

Then I met her on the bus and once the contact started, the feelings and memories came back, ive felt anxious to the max - in spikes - then feel fine - then spikes again and thats when these posts come of vengeful thinking, feelings of injustice. I can look back at them and see them for what they are and think how non-constructive and unhelpful they are, but since its been pointed out to me by you I hope I think I will be able to remember this and break out of the cycle when/if it happens again. So thank you very much.

The most difficult thing I need to do is figure out a solution, I dont have a clue what she really wants from me, or for that matter, what I actually want from her. Shes back to texting wanting to meet up, but in the "ive got 3 days off work and nothing at all to do"

again its pushing that ball into my court to make the move, make the arrangements, put myself emotionally in the vulnerable zone. At the same time controlling the impulse to do so. Then I start to think, why do I even want to be in contact at all after all I feel she has done. I go into these love/hate cycles which were such a theme - almost daily - of the r/s that I had to untangle myself from.

I feel a lot better and I believe your advice, and a break from the boards - its not easy sometimes to read some stuff, nearly every post I feel is such a carbon copy account of what Ive been through with very little deviation. I need peoples advice here that is objective and non-emotionally involved. So Again, appreciated, thanks all.  

[Skip]

If you are communicating with her at any level it is foolish not to be working through this on the bettering board. Getting advice and learning some skills. I am always amazed that some detaching member cycle back and try to use what they learned on the detaching board.

Don't outsmart yourself. Don't isolate yourself. You can't go this alone. You are not in a strong mental state by any means - as you yourself say.

The facts are this.

1. She hurt you. None of us have a clue what that means. Did she forget your birthday, kill your dog, sleep with your dad... .we don't know much. There is not much we can say.We do know that hurting her back felt good to you.

1. You ghosted her - in part to hurt her.

2. Few things will make someone want another chance than to ghost them. Its a vindication of sorts. Once that reward wears off, often the anger or distrust of the ghosting sets in and resentment raises it head - even retaliation.

3. You had a chance meeting and you took the initiative to give her your contact information. You wanted engagement.

4. Now she is reaching in as you invited. That is good in some way and bad in another - it opens a wound that no one here knows anything about so there is not much we can say.

There are clearly some cognitive distortions going on - the problem here likely goes beyond just her actions. Support groups are a great resource to help untangle a web of emotional and logic twine, but you have to show the twine ball to get meaningful support.

You can get anonymous help here. There is no safer place to show that ball of twine.

PS: Depression is not sadness. It can manifest as anxiety. Here is the test.
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=79772

[Cromwell]

If you are communicating with her at any level it is foolish not to be working through this on the bettering board. Getting advice and learning some skills. I am always amazed that some detaching member cycle back and try to use what they learned on the detaching board.

Don't outsmart yourself. Don't isolate yourself. You can't go this alone. You are not in a strong mental state by any means - as you yourself say.

The facts are this.

1. She hurt you. None of us have a clue what that means. Did she forget your birthday, kill your dog, sleep with your dad... .we don't know much. There is not much we can say.We do know that hurting her back felt good to you.

1. You ghosted her - in part to hurt her.

2. Few things will make someone want another chance than to ghost them. Its a vindication of sorts. Once that reward wears off, often the anger or distrust of the ghosting sets in and resentment raises it head - even retaliation.

3. You had a chance meeting and you took the initiative to give her your contact information. You wanted engagement.

4. Now she is reaching in as you invited. That is good in some way and bad in another - it opens a wound that no one here knows anything about so there is not much we can say.

There are clearly some cognitive distortions going on - the problem here likely goes beyond just her actions. Support groups are a great resource to help untangle a web of emotional and logic twine, but you have to show the twine ball to get meaningful support.

You can get anonymous help here. There is no safer place to show that ball of twine.

PS: Depression is not sadness. It can manifest as anxiety. Here is the test.
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=79772

mildly depressed. Enough to make me realise that it has altered some of my thinking on the days that this stuff gets to me.

There is a catalogue of stuff that has hurt, not just the cheating. I am starting to begin to notice something important though since you sent me that information on the link between depression and the list of cognitive distortions attached. I think what happened is because of the betrayals / deep sense of distrust that I got from some of her actions it led me to go beyond that to the point of periods of paranoia as a defence mechanism. In other words, I was hypervigilant towards everything she did from the point that I felt the trust had gone, yet I didnt have proof and I was possibly reading too deep and over analysing her behaviour as a result. Combine that with the depression from it, and the fallout (i felt terrible during the NC) which im sure now from that quiz was higher than it is now and im beginning to see a bit of clarity over what happened.This is probably where my apology for the ghosting came from, i have partial sense of guilt that I over-reacted, mixed with those feelings for her and the way she can reciprocate them.

I dont know to this day if she actually cheated on me as such or did worse than I did, I did sleep with her friends when I briefly split from her and she didnt like that at all, yet I didnt do anything morally wrong, it was at the least an emotional abuse what she did to give me the impression that she had. That was the start of the feeling of betrayal and came as a shock when everything else in the r/s was amazing, or what people describe as the tail-end of the honeymoon period.

I suppose over 3 years I got a BPD-lite when you average everything out that happened, I have painted her black here at times, there is a catalogue of things that have caused shock and deep hurt and a feeling of betrayal each time. but its how she made me feel and its important for me not to overlook that fact.

I dont blame myself for not leaving her there and then, (3months in) she made it up to me as best she could, there is likely never to be an answer, but as time goes on it doesnt even bother me. Doesnt seem to have got her very far as I can tell and got my revenge anyway thats all that matters in the end.

the wheels of justice grind slowly but they grind exceedingly fine

people who have put their hand out to someone in friendship, and its been pissed on in return

hoodwinked into being told they are loved, then reciprocate and show kindness only to be responded to - one day out of nowhere - evil from that person for no objective or rational reason, you think im just going to shrug it all off as "stuff happens, oh well".

if we all were so lackadaisical about betrayal and hurtful actions from someone who purported to "love" you, then there would be no need for this forum. Do I want her to suffer in some form for what she did? hell yes! how else will she ever learn not to do it again and again?