Let them JADE (justify, argue, defend, explain), not you

[Cat Familiar]

Today we had an opportunity for one of those hot button topics to go sideways, but I tried a new strategy. Actually I didn't try, it just happened differently because I wasn't triggered.

Leaving clothes in the dryer--that had been a pet peeve of mine when my husband would do his wash and then leave wet clothes in the wash for days or dry, wrinkled clothes in the dryer. I didn't want to intervene and take care of his laundry, because that would be a slippery slope--soon it would be one of my expected duties.

So I would ask him nicely (or so I thought) to please finish up so that I could use the machines. Inevitably, it would start a conflict. At best, he'd sulk and take care of it. At worst, he'd get angry and say something to the effect of "I'm always in your way"--the all or nothing/black and white thinking rearing its head.

Today I wanted to put clothes in the dryer and I said, "I'd like to use the dryer after I finish riding my horse."

He got snarky and harrumphed and said he was busy now.

I didn't take the bait, since I didn't need the dryer immediately. Instead I asked, ":)id I say that in an impolite way?"

This stopped him for a minute and he said, "No," and harrumphed a little bit more.

I continued, "Would there have been a better way for me to say it?"

He grumbled a bit and then said, "You could have asked me to take my clothes out of the dryer."

"Oh, OK, I'll say it that way next time," I said, smiling to myself and thinking that this is typically exactly what I usually say.

[Notwendy]

Don’t you love it when you realize you weren’t triggered by something that used to trigger you? I’ve had those moments and it feels like progress. 

A couple of times though the situation seemed so odd I had to fight the urge to giggle. Not sure that would have turned out well. I do think when we are not emotionally reactive the potential drama is less.

Well done Cat!

[pearlsw]

Hi Cat,

I think I wrote this in a post the other day but to minimize the chances for such troubles I use passive constructions to let him know about household stuff. For instance I'll say, "The garbage is full [term of endearment]" rather than say, "You need to do the garbage now!" or even "Can you take the garbage out?" He will sometimes jump to do it the first time, sometimes it might take 3 or 4 reminders. It's all okay though.

One thing I try to keep in mind, is, although I love his help with this as I hate to touch the garbage, I do have two hands and I can do the garbage myself if I really need to.

I can also take the clothes out of the dryer and I can fix his bed which he never fixes. I can choose which things I want to be upset about or not... .or decide what all this means or not.

With the bed I used to be pretty annoyed until I stop and timed myself. I could make his bed in under 30 seconds. That's all. So I chose to recognize it as the thing that my own weird inner urges for tidying up disorder look like and put that at the center. Then I realized that for him, seeing his bed made signified that I loved and cared for him. So, I realized we had a win-win.

It is small, but it saved me a lot of frustration and wasted energy on feeling like he was purposely disappointing me/setting me off. He wasn't. Some people just don't care if their bed is made or not. He is one of them. I am not. That is all that is.

For me it provides order and a sense that the whole room is tidy. It's all an illusion. Finding win-win's on the small stuff saves energy for bigger stuff.

wishing you peace, pearl.

[formflier]

I remember the washer and dryer discussions.  In fact I've thought of you and those old conflicts recently, since my wife has apparently picked laundry as a place to "push me out of  house work".

I do it all the time... I"m a control freak... etc etc etc.  Of course... .perhaps once I might have said I was confused... .because she alleges I do NO housework... never help... .so, which way is it?  

Anyway (for clarity)... .I love doing laundry (the washing and drying part).  I tolerate the folding part and I HATE the distribution part.  I refuse to hang up or "stow" stuff for other people, mainly because I dislike people doing that for me (how on earth will I know where stuff is... if I don't put it away).

Anyway... how can the simplest things get hard?

Solid work not staying triggered!

When you ask him "correctly" next time and he is snarky... .make sure you call him on it (but politely... perhaps in a confused way).

 

FF

[1stTimer]

Hi Cat, not sure if this helps or is 100% relevant but there is a sentence promoted by

www.nicolamethodforhighconflict.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/The-Workbook.pdf

which is used for managing high-conflict people which people swear by as being effective (I have not tried it):

"When you said that it seemed like you thought I did something wrong"

Read more in the booklet about why it is effective and how to use it in a longer exchange but the basic concept seems pretty strong as it makes the other person move away from blaming you to understanding they have upset about something that is not your fault.

Try page 12 and 13 here

www.nicolamethodforhighconflict.com/flip3/nicolamethod/nicolamethod.html

too as it seems particularly relevant.


Give it a whirl next time and let us know how it goes!

[Notwendy]

My H has some thing about domestic duties and he’d prefer I do all of them - the traditional “women” ones which I did. It didn’t matter if I was working ( I am working now)  or stayed home with kids- I did both and still had the role of all of it. I didn’t mind a more traditional division. He is the main breadwinner but even the occasional request would provoke a rage or a string of snarky comments or an argument about how unfair it was for him to do “my job”.
 
He dug his heels in over any request to help with washing dishes. He will not wash the dishes. I could do it in a few minutes or fight all night over it. I think he fears that if he does it once he will always have to but that’s not my intent. He’s done it maybe a couple of times in the time we’ve been married and says “see I do the dishes”. Same with making the bed. I do it.

He will do the “manly things”. He will take out the trash but many times if he’s not here, I do it. I don’t quite get the avoidance of “women “ tasks. ( for the record- I don’t see these tasks as gender assigned but this is the line he’s drawn for some reason)

At some point when the kids were little and we had a lot of laundry, I  asked him to take charge of his own laundry. Not the general laundry or mine or the kids. I still do all sheets, towels, and at the time, kids. Kids now can do their own- cook and do dishes and no gender division with those tasks in their minds. Sometimes this would come up- as if I’ve done something horrible “ I have to do my own laundry”.  I will do it for others if the kids have exams- or he gets busy at work, if he doesn’t have time but if he’s home and off work, he can do his.

I really don’t get it. I’ve had no intention of putting most of these tasks on him. Just wanted a hand once in a while. The issue is a trigger as BPD mom didn’t do these thing either and expected people ( me included) to wait on her. Just a hand once in a while would help me with this association.

I know this thread is about triggers and this is one I just had to let go of. The battle isn’t worth it.

[Notwendy]

Sadly- there are a lot of men on this board with BPD wives and they are doing it all- breadwinner, childcare, housework. My heart goes out to them. I saw my father in this situation. It made me grow up fast and I tried to help out.

I don’t think it’s fair to anyone to put them in that situation and I would not want to do that.

Like FF said though - in a home where both spouses are contributing -small tasks becoming difficult is frustrating.

It’s a trigger point for me due to how I grew up.

[Cat Familiar]

Great suggestions, folks! I'll list some highlights from the tips you've given so that I have more tools in my toolbox when I need them:

*Revisiting the situation and looking at it with a new perspective and seeing the absurdity, (but not laughing!)

*Using the passive construction for tasks, with a term of endearment. Rinse and repeat as necessary.

*Choosing what things to be upset about and looking for win/wins.

*Figuring out what I like to do, what I tolerate and what I hate.

*Sweetly, politely, and confusedly asking when my next request doesn't fit his linguistic criteria as stated.

*"When you said that it seemed like you thought I did something wrong"  GREAT SENTENCE!

*Letting go of triggers when the battle isn't worth it


My H recently had hip replacement surgery and suddenly I was responsible for EVERYTHING--meaning that every time he needed to get in and out of bed, I had to lift his leg and I had to lift and move his leg for physical therapy exercises three times a day.

I put batteries in a pair of walkie talkies, so I could do my outdoor tasks and have some measure of freedom, but I was on call constantly for food, water, bathroom visits, etc.

A physical therapist friend was shocked that he wasn't told how to lift his leg himself at the hospital, either using a strap or an extra pair of pajamas. I told her they did tell him, but he wanted my help.

In retrospect, I should have insisted that he do more himself, but hey, I'm a caretaker and it comes naturally when I'm asked to provide assistance.

What I don't like is when it's assumed that I should do something, just because I know how. I already do all the "masculine tasks" around here--all the repairs and most all of the "female tasks" too, but he has started to become more involved in cooking--glory be!

I was totally exhausted being the patient caregiver, particularly since his surgery occurred during the busiest time of the year--spring, when I'm mowing, planting gardens, fixing irrigation systems, etc.

He seemed so happy being taken care of and so oblivious of my utter exhaustion. As he recuperated, I had to be mindful that all the extra things I was doing for him did not become part of his new expectations, nor my new habits.  

[Cat Familiar]

Sadly- there are a lot of men on this board with BPD wives and they are doing it all- breadwinner, childcare, housework. My heart goes out to them. I saw my father in this situation.

Yep, my dad did that too.   

After he died and I took care of my mother for a few years, I realized what a saint he was to put up with her for so many years.

[formflier]

Alright Cat Familiar  stick'em up.

This is a FF thread hijack... .   

So... I'm honestly looking for "reasonable housewife input" (house hubbies welcome too).

My wife will declare the kids need to do their own laundry and my "not allowing" them to do it "proves" some sort of something on my part.

Well... .many times I have them do their own, but with all these people running around... not everyone has their own laundry bin and sometimes really dirty things are taken off in the laundry room at my or my wife's direction... .so as not to spread a mess.

So... .let's say I go in to do laundry and i have a pair a my jeans and other darks to do.  It seems horribly inefficient to just do mine, especially with other jeans and darks within arms reach... or just down the hall.  

We have one of those super efficient front loaders that you can put massive amounts in... or it will automatically reduce water for smaller loads.  When most people are here... it's unusual for the washing machine to NOT be running.

Anyway... .I make sure spots are sprayed and wash is done and dried.  It gets dumped in central location and then I recruit whoever is around to fold and deliver.  

Kids do perform their own laundry from time to time but I teach them to help the entire family out... .by moving other stuff along as well.

S17 is particular about his clothes and does his own.

Anyway... .what I'm trying to ask is what is  a reasonable alternative... .and does it seem reasonable to let "washer space" go unused... .just because it's not the proper persons laundry.

For "each to do their own" we would need about 4 more laundry bins and a much more complicated schedule.

So... you guys have had good insights before... .if you share some here.  I just might put my gun away and give Cat Familiar her thread back.

FF

[Cat Familiar]

Hey FF, hijack away! 

My criteria is saving water and energy. I'm sure your kids get plenty of opportunities to help out. I wouldn't worry that they'll be poorly equipped to do laundry when they're on their own. So I'm with you. It seems much more efficient for one overseer to group appropriate laundry loads together.

[Notwendy]

FF I think both you and your wife have a point. To me- doing ones personal laundry is a self care task- and I want the kids to know how to do it and be responsible but I’m also not strict about it. I don’t draw lines in the sand about who does what when something needs to be done. I prefer team work.

I also don’t want a bunch of mini loads of laundry. I’ll combine a load of wash like you do. The point is to get things done and be efficient and not wasteful.

Also if someone were to chip in and help I think it would be frustrating to them to micromanage them. If you are doing laundry - do it your way - I do it my way. With 8 kids - I think combining loads makes sense. But I can also see your wife’s point if she’s trying to teach the kids to be responsible for their laundry and you do it, that could undermine the lesson.

[Notwendy]

Cat I think you touched on something that I’ve noticed too. The desire to be taken care of beyond what is needed. Surely if someone needs help I would do it - but it seems my mother has a need to have people go beyond that - like with your H not lifting his leg when he could have learned how -and you were still willing to help with things he needs help with.

My mother seems to have a need to be taken care of as if there is some meaning behind the task that is more than the task. If I see dirty clothes or dirty dishes- to me there is the task to clean them. It doesn’t mean more than that to me. But to her - there seems to be more to it and she manipulated people to do things for her that she can do herself.

It’s not reciprocated. When my father needed help she didn’t do it for him.

I noticed this early on in my relationship with my H. It may have been a red flag if I was aware of it but it was a normal thing for me. He’s very competent at his job but likes to have me do things for him - cook, laundry, even make phone calls for him. I do like to do nice things for people but also there was some reciprocity with other friends - they’d help if I asked them .  I recall asking him to help me move some heavy  boxes once and he was sulky and grumpy about it.  I always cooked and he didn’t offer to help.( and we were both working full time at the time - no kids yet). I recall asking for a hand with the dishes and that provoked a full rage. It’s as if it meant something more than that. I decided it just wasn’t worth it to ask but I think the magnitude of the response is odd.

[Enabler]

I think the key to the kids is KNOWING how to do their own laundry and being PREPARED to do it if they require something. Surely the perfect micro community utopia is "I'm doing some darks, could everyone give me their darks" bellowed down the hallway. It's no one's task, it's everyone's responsibility since everyone wears clothes. The situation to be avoided is where one person steps back from their responsibility and avoids work.

As parents we are managing the transition between being a baby to being an adult. Showing, allowing, assisting, demonstrating, facilitating are all things we should be proactively doing. The mother who has to prepare and freeze 14 labelled breakfasts, lunches and dinners in the freezer for her 18yr old son when she goes on holiday has probably failed in modern society... .at the very least there's a shop and a microwave should he choose that rather than preparing his own dinner.

Notwendy, thanks for the compliment. I count myself as a true feminist as there's pretty much no work I would deem as man/woman's work and get stuck in to everything... .which I might add makes W trigger as she feels like she's never good enough.

[formflier]

Hey guys... .thanks for the laundry advice. 

Next time it comes up, I'll hold the door open for a conversation with my wife about her "goal" and see if we can build something around that.

My guess is there is a worthy goal that is being sabotaged by some sort of emotional thing.

I approach it from a practical point of view:  Maximize efficiency and keep the washing machine going.  Plus, with a rough and tumble crowd there can be lots of grass stains and other things that need to be sprayed and soaked and cared for.

If one person is in charge of doing that, they can remember to peek at a garment before putting it in the dryer.

Anyway... .will always scratch my head at how the simplest things get turned on their head.

Laundry done, food cooked... .dishes clean... .trash is out by the curb... .carpet is vacuumed (in my house we have to add... .with a vacuum with a not full vacuum bag... how hard is it to check?)

Anyway... .

FF

[Notwendy]

I count myself as a true feminist as there's pretty much no work I would deem as man/woman's work and get stuck in to everything... .which I might add makes W trigger as she feels like she's never good enough.

Darned if you do, darned if you don't.

I'll do the "man stuff" too if I can. I don't have the muscles to do some tasks that involve heavy items and driving a large vehicle intimidates me. But tools, trash, repairs, paint, mulch - I have done that. My H is a perfectionist with those tasks and I don't do them as well as he does. I don't mind doing them though.

As to the laundry- one of the teaching methods for children is natural consequences. A program "Parenting with Love and Logic" uses that. It takes the parent out of the equation for some tasks. If a child doesn't do his laundry, the consequences are he has no clean clothes rather than punishment for not doing the chore. It takes some learning- the child might have to wear dirty clothes and decide he doesn't like it to learn why he should do his laundry. If your wife wants the children to learn this- it may take each of them doing their own ( and a half full washer) to get to that. If you do it for them, then the natural consequence is not there. To use this method, a parent needs to leave space for mistakes that the child can learn from. Of course you don't give them more to handle than they are developmentally able to but increase as the child gets older.

I think a talk with your wife about her goals for this may help.

Once they do get it, you can be more flexible with that.  

[flourdust]

I'm going to turn this on its head a bit to give you a different perspective to think about when you have that conversation with your wife.

My guess is there is a worthy goal that is being sabotaged by some sort of emotional thing.

My guess is there is a worthy goal that is being sabotaged by some sort of need to control.

Anyway... .will always scratch my head at how the simplest things get turned on their head when it isn't being done my way.

Laundry done, food cooked... .dishes clean... .trash is out by the curb... .carpet is vacuumed (in my house we have to add... .with a vacuum with a not full vacuum bag... how hard is it for eight people to just do things exactly the way I want them done?

[formflier]

I'm going to turn this on its head a bit to give you a different perspective to think about when you have that conversation with your wife.

Oh... .I think I see.

I'm fine with doing it many other ways... .as long as it gets done.  There are many ways to "skin a cat"... but if the cat walks away with the skin still on... .that's not compromise.

We've tried... I've allowed her complete control... .and near as I can figure... sometimes sabotage... sometimes who knows what... it doesn't get done.

Laundry:  When kids don't have clothes... .my wife is unwilling to send them to school with dirty clothes... frankly I am... .if we are going to do the consequences thing... no saving.  And... once or twice... administrators and teachers will understand.

Is that what you are getting at flourdust?

FF

[Red5]

Laundry !

... .another source of discontent around the Red5 abode !

Personally, I like to do my own laundry... .my wife will complain that my hamper is full; each person in the household has their own hamper/laundry basket.

NO MIXING !

Yes, .I like to do my own laundry, and I am NOT allowed to do my wife's laundry... .my S31(autistic) does his own as well, with some guidance, which wife gripes about, me assisting him sometimes, ie' use of bleach for his "whites".

Being a guy (man)... .my laundry "gauge" is hard wired directly to how many pairs on underwear I got left in my drawer, .like the fuel gage in the truck, .the closer the gauge needle gets to "E" (MT)... .then I know I need to refuel soonest!

The same with the laundry basket, it can be full to the brim, but as long as I got clean BVD issue skivvies to wear, its good to go (gtg) !

This perplexes the wife to no end... .so she "announces" that she will do my laundry whilst I am at work... .I say "no dear, I will do it"... .she does it anyways... and when she puts it away; "folds it and hangs it"... .its "all over the place"... .not where" I wanted it to go"... .it aggravates me, but I keep my mouth shut... . 

And get his, then I "hear about it"... .about how she HAS to do even my laundry, and hers to boot, .I shake my head... .as I TOLD HER I'd do it myself, and hers too if she would let me... .ha ha ha, a fella just cant win !

Yes, do your own !

As far as leaving wet, or dry clothes in the washer or dryer... .its back to the "barracks rules"... ."keep the laundry moving", .put it into the dryer, a dryer sheet is optional at that point... .leave it in the dryer, then it goes into the nearest laundry basket, folding it is up to the owner of the laundry... .this is why I like to do my own, and each person has their own "laundry day".

Cat, .when I lived in the barracks all those years ago, if you left your wet laundry in the washer in the wash room, you'd likely find it heaped onto the floor when you went to "take care of it"... .same with the dryer... .the next Marine would just heave it into the floor... .and use the dryer, .and thats where it stayed until field day on Thursday night, and then it went into the "whiskey locker" in the duty NCO's hut, and it was free to be taken by others at that point, either to be worn, or used as cleaning "rags"... .I even remember having "clean" laundry stolen right outs the dryer if you did not keep an eye on it ... .as we all wore the same thing, hard to tell it apart  !

I remember living with other young Marines who had NEVER been made to do their own laundry, other than boot camp (Parris Island or San Diego)... so when they got to the Fleet, they learnt the hard way, that Mum, and Pop weren't their to do it for them anymore... .tough love !

Life was a lot easier then... . 

However, Formflier will have to work something else out, as he has more folks living in his house than there are days in the week  !

So good luck with that Formflier !

I do remember "paying" Papa'san, and Mama'san to do my laundry, and even shine my boots in Japan way back in the day... .maybe an option ?

As far as water, we are on well water, and we live by the Atlantic ocean... .so there you go !

Ya'll have a great day 

Red5

[formflier]

Paying a few bucks to have stinky laundry "magically disappear" and crisp folded laundry appear is one of my favorite military memories... .


FF

[Cat Familiar]

A strategy I’ve employed with wet/dry laundry left in the machines is to temporarily put it in a laundry basket, do my own laundry, replace his laundry in the machine where I found it and say nothing.

I’ve gotten busted a time or two when he’s strolled into the laundry room and seen his laundry in the basket on the floor. That annoyed him, but his laundry had been sitting in a heap in the machine for a day or two—it’s not gonna be wrecked by sitting in the basket.

Previously I’d wait days to do my wash, hoping he’d magically remember to finish up with his. Reminding him to do so had become such a toxic experience that I’d rather wait until he figured it out, than to have that conversation.

Other times I finished his laundry and brought it to his studio, neatly folded—and that annoyed him too. (I should have said something, he’d tell me—or he’d grunt a thanks—or he’d say nothing at all.)

With those kinds of responses, I certainly wasn’t motivated to do that task on a regular basis, so sometimes I’d do it anyway, and get passive aggressive about it, folding his laundry in a way he didn’t like.

Even when I was young and had irresponsible roommates, somehow we could resolve these issues to everyone’s satisfaction.

My theory about pwBPDs after living with three of them: Emotions have a primacy over all else. If they’re upset about something, nothing else matters.

[formflier]

Even when I was young and had irresponsible roommates, somehow we could resolve these issues to everyone’s satisfaction.

My theory about pwBPDs after living with three of them: Emotions have a primacy over all else. If they’re upset about something, nothing else matters.

And that's the kicker... .

Even when she alleges I "won't compromise" even on a household task... .I know that I can show (back in the old days when I really put out effort) an email with a list of 10 different options I could think of... asking her to pick.  Nope... her way or highway.  So... I would go with her way... .it would fail... I would get blamed.  Huh?

Do what?

Now... .my "rule" or "boundary" is that I won't offer a suggestion or compromise until she puts something on the table first... .I'll only ask clarifying questions.  (which she sometimes says make her look stupid)

FF

[Cat Familiar]

Some years back, a man that I was dating who had a great head for business, said, “The person who asks the questions, controls the conversation.”

I think I’m finally getting a deeper understanding of that statement.

Great guy, PTSD from military service, crazy young daughter—definitely PD, maybe BPD—we did couples counseling so I understand how it works with Nons, but too many red flags for me, and I wasn’t madly in love with him—madly being a key word. 

[Cat Familiar]

Now... .my "rule" or "boundary" is that I won't offer a suggestion or compromise until she puts something on the table first... .I'll only ask clarifying questions.  (which she sometimes says make her look stupid)

I've been trying to elicit opinions from my husband before I offer mine. It's like pulling teeth. He wants my opinion first, then he'll say what he really wants.

I know he's trying to be as open as he can and seem reasonable, but if I look at the process from a distance, I see the same dynamic repeating over and over: He wants to know where I stand. He then offers his opinion, hoping I'll agree or compromise. He often acts as if he doesn't care, but when push comes to shove, he really wants his own way.

For important things, I readily give my opinion and I'm not wishy-washy about sticking with it. This dynamic I've described typically occurs with unimportant decisions, such as what restaurant we should go to or what we should order on the menu if we're sharing a number of dishes, like at a Thai restaurant.

Now that I understand the dynamic, I get out of the way and let him have a win and for me, it's no big deal. I'd much rather let him win the little decisions and hold my line on the big ones. 

[formflier]

I'd much rather let him win the little decisions and hold my line on the big ones. 

Exactly what I do and how I think about things. 

If I'm going to make an issue of something... .I "hold".  No folding or "buckling".

The rest of it... .I'm open.

Part the reason I let her go first... .is I'm figuring out "how close" we are to stuff I really care about.  If its far away... .I let her go with whatever.

Clearly laying out my boundaries... .which you would think is a good idea... to describe them first, has not gone well.  Letting her discover them... .repeatedly... .seems to go better.

I don't get that.  But it works.

FF

[Red5]

I've been trying to elicit opinions from my husband before I offer mine. It's like pulling teeth. He wants my opinion first, then he'll say what he really wants.

I know he's trying to be as open as he can and seem reasonable, but if I look at the process from a distance, I see the same dynamic repeating over and over: He wants to know where I stand. He then offers his opinion, hoping I'll agree or compromise. He often acts as if he doesn't care, but when push comes to shove, he really wants his own way.

For important things, I readily give my opinion and I'm not wishy-washy about sticking with it. This dynamic I've described typically occurs with unimportant decisions, such as what restaurant we should go to or what we should order on the menu if we're sharing a number of dishes, like at a Thai restaurant.

Now that I understand the dynamic, I get out of the way and let him have a win and for me, it's no big deal. I'd much rather let him win the little decisions and hold my line on the big ones. 

Too fuuny !

I do this too, .

Kind of like "pre-manufactured "baited" drama"... .but in a good way, like letting the first mate (u/BPDw) steer the boat on clear and calm days, .resultant; she feels large and in charge, and in control, ie' getting her own way... .but if we're in a storm sea per say, no dice, she wants no part in the important decisions, but she will question every decision I do make, as to present the facade that she wants to be included in the final analysis (?)... .but in reality; I'm driving the boat !

Red5