help understanding difference between "ghosting" and "no contact" for self-pres

[iberis]

I had a very tumultuous online correspondence with a man I met in 2015. It took me a while to figure out that he would probably be diagnosed with BPD. I’ll spare you the details of the really painful rollercoasters we went through over the past three year (you all probably know what it’s like) and skip to what’s currently at play…

Last August he sent me a Facebook message that was basically all rage and blame for hundreds of lines of text. I was so overwhelmed and scared that I didn’t respond. And then I kept not responding, and then I blocked him to make the messages stop. He has since then made a few different fake Facebook accounts and messaged me through them, though I have never responded and always block the accounts. He sent another message last Friday night from a new account, and it was characteristically terrible.

I feel some guilt for not ever stating explicitly that I didn’t want to be in contact with him anymore. He sees this as “ghosting” (and has incorporated it into his story of how I’m victimizing him). I understand that ceasing to be in contact with him fits the definition of ghosting, but what allowance is there in that definition for someone avoiding verbal abuse by going “no contact”, even if there wasn’t a declaration of an intent to go no contact? At the time I was so overwhelmed and hopeless that I couldn’t respond, and it felt like any response I could have made would have made things worse.

So, I guess my question is, should I have said something at the time? Should I say something now, and break the no contact to explain the intention of no contact? It do feel conflicted about this, and like he did deserve more transparency about me ceasing contact. But on the other hand, I know that nothing I say ever makes anything better, he is able to take anything and fit it into his story of how I’ve wronged him. It's a total double-bind.

Ugh. :/

[Cromwell]

the reason I eventually "ghosted" my ex, was because of the same reason, any opportunity to try and amicably detach would have been just an opportunity to argue the point being made. I think I also concluded at that point, how I felt at the time, what she had done, regardless of how long our relationship had went, I didnt even feel I wanted to give her the dignity of a "f off", which is all that my "closure of communication" text would have resembled anyway.

the only reason in your position, I would bother to tell him is if there is a legal point of view that you want him to stop harassing you. Any reasonable minded person would understand that if they have been ignored for that length of time, that it is obvious that the other doesnt want any communication with them ever again. Yet, his persistence shows that he either doesnt get it, or hasnt chosen to respect your wishes.

Id suggest if he is still pestering you that you make a non-emotional response that you dont want to have any contact with him ever again, keep it short and simple and then ignore anything else and see if he gives up. If he keeps pestering you despite that, its turned into harassment and thats a different situation to deal with, but id cross that bridge when and if it comes. My ghosting worked, i cut off all contact sources, it just wasnt possible to reach me.

If you feel he deserves that message, go for it. I did feel partially guilty for just ghosting away 3 years of being with my ex, but in hindsight, what I did due to that level of abuse I dont have any guilt for doing it the way I did. As you said, its not a case of dealing with rational minded person that is likely to accept without argument and drama what you wish to achieve, if you felt it was, you would have done so. Do what you feel comfortable with, but id refrain from doing it because you feel badgered by him to give a response, that could be a sign of weakness that you are able to break the existing NC. It has been NC since August after all, he should have got the message, sounds like he might just be throwing his line out and venting, with a partial hope you will go for the bait after showing you he is still thinking of you. Id just ignore it if I were in your situation and keep to the decision youve already taken.

[Mutt]

Hi iberis,

hasnt chosen to respect your wishes.

I'd like to set aside ghosting and no contact for a second I think that it has to do with respect if you don't want to talk to someone because they respect you, or you're not interested that's fine. If the other party is saying that they are feeling victimized it's blaming the other person you could also call it emotional blackmail.

What is the point of trying to repeatedly contact someone to the point where you are harassing them then you blame shift and say that you're victimized. You are still responsible for your own actions it wouldn't be where it is today if he had stopped at the first attempt. Try not to feel guilty you have a right to choose who you want in your life and who you don't want to.

[iberis]

Thanks for the perspective, Cromwell and Mutt. I feel understood by both of you. I think I will keep to the current trajectory and continue to block him however I can, but not directly confront him. I've deleted most of my online accounts and will change my name on Facebook so he can't find me in the future. I think that's basically all I can do. I'll try to get over the guilt feelings by remembering that it really was the only reasonable thing to do, no matter how he sees it.

This whole thing has been such torture. The hardest part is actually caring very much about him, but realizing that it's really dangerous (emotionally and mentally) to be in any level of communication with him. But I also hate that he suffers so much. It looks like a lot of people on this board are really empathetic to the suffering of the pwBPD in their lives, so I don't feel so messed up that it's the case for me, too.

[pearlsw]

Hi iberis,

Was your relationship with him all via correspondence or was there an in-person aspect? What does he say when he contacts you?

You stopped talking to him last August, after three years, and he won't give up contacting you?

Some men won't take no even if you tell them, I'm sure you know, and it can be very scary. You are not under any obligation to reply this man, but like Cromwell said it might work to tell him not to contact you and then pursue a legal route to be sure he stops. If you aren't gonna follow it up in that way though, probably best not to reply. It could just cause him to escalate. Hard to say! Be careful!

with compassion, pearl.

[iberis]

Ok, so, this is going to be a lot of information... .I'm going to keep it as anonymous as possible because it's really so shameful to me. I've learned a lot but made a lot of mistakes.

We live in different countries, but we met during a brief meditation retreat in another country, so there was an in-person component. We connected pretty quickly though it wasn't romantic in my mind, and when he found out that I was in a relationship he got all kinds of mad at me for not being available. He was sure I was his soulmate from the get-go. I made the mistake of trying to help him through a process, but part of me (I see now) liked the attention and stayed in proximity out of vanity. I should have stepped away when things got bad the first time but I didn't. It was incredibly intense, and there seemed to be a weirdly huge spiritual component and deep familiarity in the dynamic, which was both unsettling and extremely interesting to me. Things would go from bad to good to bad, over and over again, all within a two-week period. The interactions became so intense that he was basically isolated out of the center we were staying at (threatening to kill himself, causing all kinds of interpersonal drama with other people). It was terrible, dramatic, and painful, and definitively not what I had gone on the vacation for... .:/ 

After we were back in our respective home countries after the trip, he emailed me and FB messaged me frequently (we had exchanged email addresses when things were on an ok phase). More than a year after the trip, I decided it might be ok to respond to one of his messages. I had fixated quite a bit on what I felt was a very special emotional and spiritual connection to this person (maybe we were soul mates?), and eventually let it take the wheel, despite warnings from others and the understanding that he was probably a pwBPD. I was still thinking that my special attention and our special connection could help him, or even that it was my special responsibility to help him. We were in contact that first time for about 6 weeks (November to mid-December 2016), and it was an incredibly hellish rollercoaster. We ended communication then, but we got back in contact a few times the following spring for very short periods (2-3 days, tops). Each time, I ended up really regretting that I had responded to his messages.

The cycle of his position toward me always went like this, during every period of time we were in contact:

1. I don’t care about the circumstances, I just want to be able to talk with you. I love you more than anything.
2. I’m starting to have problems with your romantic unavailability.
3. You’re purposefully withholding the only thing in this world that means anything to me. You’re cruel and trying to hurt me.
4. I don’t want to be in communication with you. You never should have been in communication with me if you weren’t available.
5. Let me back in. I don’t care about the circumstances. I just want to be able to talk with you. I love you more than anything.

There was nothing I could do to change the course of the cycle or to interrupt it, there was never anything I could do or say, even appealing to logic, that would make anything better. He would sometimes be pretty lucid, which was always a relief. When he was lucid, it was like the most amazing connection I’ve ever felt to anyone. We really did seem to know each other to the core. It was a total trip, super beautiful, and really out of this world. But it never lasted long, and the bad parts of the communications were really, really bad. For both of us.

The last few times he’s emailed me (reminder, I haven’t responded him since August), it has been raging at me and then saying how he’s justified in raging at me. In this last one he accused me of infiltrating his dreams and told me I was no longer welcome in his thoughts (would that I could take my leave, sir!). I do know that I should never have been in contact with him, and I know that a lot of this whole debacle is due to my personality flaws and lack of integrity in the past. I have a lot of work to do, and if nothing else, being in contact with him has shown me just how messed up facets of me are. I have been trying to course-correct by going no contact.

I've looked into it, and there really isn't a way to enforce international restraining orders. I also worry that if I do something official (maybe report him to his local police office, he already has a restraining order on him from another woman) he might do something drastic. And I don't want to cause him any more pain, if at all possible. It's hard to know what to do.

Ok, that's a lot of information... .probably way more than you were wanting. Somewhat helpful for me to write it out to an audience that might understand some of these components.

[Cromwell]

The huge advantage you have is physical distance,

he sounds obsessed via infactuation and at the time idolisation, ie, "love" is definatly not part of this equation.

I wish I would have had the advantage of the physical distance, there were times I seriously considered emigrating.

Id advise not getting entangled into any discussions, wether positive or negative replies. This is a psychic connection he has - as he said "he wants you out of his thoughts", the only way for this to happen in my view is complete no contact. Forget about restraining orders and involving the police, all that does is paradoxically keep a link established.

dont even read his messages, I could read my ex's texts but I could do it without opening them, as far as she knows I havent read them. This seems to have worked best in the end. He will eventually run out of steam, if there is absolutely no response or indication that he is able to hook you in at an emotional level.

[iberis]

Thanks, Cromwell. Yeah, that all sounds true. I'm really glad for the distance, too. He's also unemployed and therefore doesn't have the means to get on a plane and fly here, so I don't worry about that. I won't involve the police. I agree it would just keep the link established.

I kind of regret taking down my FB profile right after he messaged me, because that does show that I read it. Oh well. I'm going to try to do a year break from FB to really let things cool down. I also took down the website where I post music I write, because he was listening to everything and interpreting it to mean malicious things about him ("Your callous lyrics have only cut even deeper." and "Ive seen your attitude expressed in songs.", when none of it was about him, at least directly. I'll use a pseudonym when I start posting songs online again, because being able to express myself in music (without fear of someone taking everything personally) is important to me.

I've learned that it doesn't work for me to just funnel his messages into the trash box in email, because I start habitually checking it. It only works for me to entirely change my email, take down my accounts, etc. That's the only way I can enforce my own boundaries about that. I also, embarrassingly enough, google him to see what he's posted about me on various FB groups he visits. I really try hard not to do that, because it's always upsetting, but I have trouble staying away. I'm really working on not doing that, but it's like an addiction. He wouldn't know I'm doing it, but it still charges things for me and therefore keeps the connection alive more than it would be otherwise. I'll take any words of advice about that, if you have them. Thanks for your help.

[once removed]

to echo pearlsw, he sounds like a man who has a very hard time taking "no" for an answer.

i do want to throw another possible option into the discussion. im not advocating it, per se, but its worth considering if what youre doing hasnt worked, and is causing you great stress.

open up the lines of communication. let him spew it all, even if its hundreds of lines. dont JADE (justify, argue, defend, explain). dont make apologies or try to litigate any of the issues he brings up. respond in an emotionally detached way.

hes hell bent on getting your attention. it could be that if he gets it, and determines for himself that its not what he was after (in other words, he decides you bore him), he may decide the problem is you, it wasnt worth it, and he will go elsewhere and leave you alone.

might seem counterintuitive, but worth considering.

- Gradually become more boring, talk less, share less feelings and opinions. The goal is almost to bore "The Borderline" to lessen the emotional attachment, at the same time not creating a situation which would make you a target

Leaving a partner with borderline personality disorder: https://bpdfamily.com/pdfs/carver.pdf

[iberis]

That's an interesting idea for sure, and I have sort of tried it in the past. I learned all the tricks for being in communication with pwBPD in a way that mitigates the damage to both parties. However, even at my most judo, he was still fixated on my relationship status (even though I was never saying that being in a romantic relationship with him was an option), and because I was unavailable, it always came back to that. So, I can see from past experience that being in contact with him to any degree just fans the flames of his sense of being withheld love from. There's so much juice in that for him that I don't think it would ever become boring, no matter what I did. Unfortunately.

[EdR]

Reading your first post, I would say you have done everything you can. Your explanatory longer post however gives me a somewhat different perspective:

To me, this seems like a dysfunctional dance in which 2 people clearly participated. You explained that there were numerous short and long cycles of contact. Contact which according to you felt really special, but every single time it eventually went haywire.

Like a lot of people seem to describe they have become more or less addicted to the pwBPD and the rollercoaster emotions, it really seems this guy is similar. He wants 'the high' of contacting you.

Because of this explanatory post I would like to ask you if the 'lows' of the contact really outweigh the 'highs' for you? This is an important question imho. You seem to care about him and feel a connection. Answer as honestly as you can, because you will likely need a strong resolve.
If not, it would be a totally different ball game.
But if the answer is indeed yes, I do think you could explain to him why you would like to cut off contact. Let him reply. Is his reply threatening in anyway, then you have done more than enough and I would directly cut off all contact. Forever.
Is his reply okayish, then you could talk about some of the specifics.

But whatever you do: after these final messages YOU should be done. Otherwise, the answer to my question should be reconsidered.

[iberis]

The lows definitely outweigh the highs. There has definitely been an overall negative impact to my mental and emotional health due to participating in the dance with him. There is still a nagging sense that I should tell him that I'm out, though. So, thanks for your perspective.

[Cromwell]

remember a key trait of BPD "frantic efforts to avoid abandonment" whether imagined or real.

You telling him you want closure can set off a huge reaction. It is what happened each and every time I wanted to leave the r/s, and what happened is suddenly all those negatives got swept away and I got back the girl that id been waiting for. The thing is, its just another blip.

In the end the only thing that worked was to ghost her out of my life, i chose the opportunity when I believed she was triangulating anyway, far from seeing anyone else as my adversary Ive came to see them as an unexpected saviour of sorts - for me that is.

You going out of his life when he doesnt have anyone else to fall back on might not go so well. just something to maybe keep in mind. It was this negative impact on my moods, that rapidly was uplifted each time her behaviour changed full circle - whenever I made a move to leave. ultimately that is what kept me suckered into the r/s.

[iberis]

I feel like no matter what I do right now (respond or continue to not respond), it's the wrong decision.

If I were to respond, it would be something like this:

"I need to ask you that you stop contacting me. I can’t be in contact with you anymore- it causes me tremendous suffering. I wish I had been able to tell you 10 months ago when I made the decision, but I was overwhelmed by your messages and was unable to respond at the time. I am very sad that our relationship has been such a painful experience, and I recognize and regret my part in the dysfunction between us. I hope for both of us to be able to heal from what has occurred over the past three years. The best option to reduce future suffering for both of us is to go ‘no contact’. I have deactivated my Facebook profile and deleted my music page. This email account was created specifically to write you this single message. I will read a reply from you if you decide to send one, but this account will be deleted after that."

(But for right now, I'm not sending this. Just writing for my own sake.)

[EdR]

I think I would say something stronger than 'to go NC'. This part may sound as a phase. You seem to want to cut off contact forever though, so I would say it a little stronger.

I understand what you are saying. No option seems particularly nice.
But you are NOT sending this to get a 'nice reply'. That's not your aim here. You would just take the high road by giving him an explanation and announcing your decision to cut him out of your life.
Imo regardless of his reply, that is a lot nicer than 'ghosting'. But like Cromwell said, there could also be situations in which that seems to be the only option. This just didn't feel like one of those situations yet. But I could be wrong as I just base that on what you have written here.

Regarding the exact phrasing/wording of your mail: I am sure there are some experienced members who could help you with that.

[iberis]

Thanks for the thoughts. I'd certainly take more edits if anyone else has any thoughts. I'm not saying I'll send it, but writing this out feels like a good step for me at least.

I feel like I should add that he's attempted to take his life (before I knew him) and has threatened to do so (in the time that I've known him). I don't know how serious his threats are but I am still concerned it's a possibility. I don't want that to happen to him, and that's part of my reticence to reply with a hard line to him.

[Wicker Man]

 @iberis

The terms 'ghosting' versus 'no contact' are, in my opinion, not a difference in semantics, but a difference in intent.  My ex would 'ghost' people when she could not, at that moment, deal with them.  It had an almost punitive nature to it.  She would then reinitiate contact as some later date as if nothing had happened.  I was on the receiving end of this behavior once.

I have not 'ghosted' my ex -I have gone 'no contact' because our lives no longer touch at any point.  We actually did have a conversation where we agreed to 'never speak again' and with that we began our silence.  I believe it is crucial for both our wellbeing we put our relationship behind us and begin to heal. 

Since leaving her I have learned about BPD and strongly suspect she suffers from the disorder -I have often wished I could tell her what I have learned and beseech her to get therapy, however I feel any contact from me whatsoever would restart her healing clock.  Giving her hope of my return.  I cared very deeply for her and feel enormous pity for her pain.

Tragically I heard from a mutual friend she is still wearing 'our' engagement ring --we have not been in contact for 6 months.  There can to be an obsessive nature to BPD as you well know.

We often read on BPD Family of us 'normal' people having difficulty recovering from a relationship with someone we believe suffers from BPD.  What is not frequently discussed is the unimaginable crushing pain someone suffering from borderline personality disorder feels when someone leaves them.  I write out borderline personality disorder to make the point it is a personality disorder which is tantamount a pervasive world view, a life long affliction.

I am of the opinion any note you send could be seen as an invitation.  A message could be seen as 'reward' and could lead to more unwanted 'behavior' in the form of attention on his part. 

We 'can not not' communicate.  By not responding to him you are sending a message loud and clear. 

Slowly the lack of rewarding his behavior (sending you messages) will hopefully extinguish his behavior.  He will hopefully begin his grieving process and come out of denial.  BPD is, from my reading, incredibly complicated and presents itself in a lot of different behaviors.

Writing the note is incredibly cathartic.  Whether to send it or not, the other hand, is a difficult choice.

Wicker Man

[iberis]

Hi Wicker Man,

Thanks for the reminder about the difficulties people with BPD experience, especially with break-ups. I know he and people like him suffer to an extreme degree.

I wish I had done things differently at the time when I decided I couldn't respond to his texts anymore, that I had been able to be clearer with him in the moment. But now that time has passed and a certain momentum has built up around the silence, it's probably best to keep going in it. Responding now might restart the healing clock again, as you said. (Though I don't know how much healing has actually occurred in the past 10 months, but I have to believe it's something.)

Writing about this with you all has been helpful, though I'm in a pretty rough process with it all right now. I hope something is being cleared somehow.

[iberis]

Things are becoming more clear for me. Here's what I'm learning-

There is a big difference between ghosting/silent treatment/ignoring someone out of callous disregard or want to punish, or withdrawing from an emotionally dangerous and futile dynamic for self-protection. And yes, emotional protection is just as important as physical protection- it shouldn't have to reach the level of physical violence for someone to be justified in withdrawing from another person if they feel unsafe (emotionally or mentally).

No one owes anyone else attention or space in his or her life. We all get to choose who we relate to. I don't form or dissolve relationships flippantly; cutting him off has not been an easy thing to do. I really wish I didn't have to make that decision. However, I see plainly now that withdrawing is the only compassionate action available to me- everything else only causes more pain.

[BeagleGirl]

If I were to respond, it would be something like this:

"I need to ask you that you stop contacting me. I can’t be in contact with you anymore- it causes me tremendous suffering. I wish I had been able to tell you 10 months ago when I made the decision, but I was overwhelmed by your messages and was unable to respond at the time. I am very sad that our relationship has been such a painful experience, and I recognize and regret my part in the dysfunction between us. I hope for both of us to be able to heal from what has occurred over the past three years. The best option to reduce future suffering for both of us is to go ‘no contact’. I have deactivated my Facebook profile and deleted my music page. This email account was created specifically to write you this single message. I will read a reply from you if you decide to send one, but this account will be deleted after that."

I'll start with my opinion that the aspect that makes this "going NC" and not "ghosting" is that it is a response to hurtful behavior on his part.  As I understand it, ghosting is what happens when a relationship seems to be going well, but then the person disappears for no apparent reason.  What you have done seems to be a withdrawal from an emotionally hurtful person.

I tend to lean towards not responding to him.  It might have been better to express your intention up front, but I don't think there's any doubt of your intention now.

IF you did respond, I'd like you to take a highlighter to your proposed statement and highlight everything that could fit the category of JADE.  Realize that the JADE is for you and will have no positive impact on him.  Now, if you want to send him a message establishing that you will not be communicating with him any further and would like for him to stop attempting to contact you try to do it in a BIFF format. 

As far as your struggle with wanting to know what is going on with him (a nicer way of saying "cyberstalking"  , I will start by saying that you are not alone.  I too have cyberstalked to a degree that I am ashamed of.  I'm a little conflicted on whether a bit of cyberstalking is a pure "evil".  I think that it helped me through some times when what I imagined might have been worse than the truth.  I think that the fact that it tapered off naturally over time (Well, maybe not all that naturally. There were definitely times when I told myself "NO, you are not going to stalk him today" rather than staying at a constant or escalating rate means it wasn't ultimately destructive. 

If you do want to go "cold turkey" off of checking on him, another option is to entrust a friend with the job of keeping tabs on him.  I did something similar with the some love letters and mementos that I wasn't ready to get rid of but knew I shouldn't have around.  I gave them to a trusted friend and I knew that she would allow me to "visit" them if I really needed to.  And she was willing to either destroy them for me or give them back to me.  I never "visited" them before asking her to destroy them, but the more gradual letting go was very helpful.  If you have someone in your life that you could trust to check on him and let you know if there is anything you should know, that might help you distance yourself a bit more.

BG

[iberis]

Thanks, BeagleGirl. Nice to hear from another female with experience with a male pwBPD.

I'll have to read up on what JADE and BIFF mean, though I think I understand the concepts. And the idea of having sort of a bardo mourning period is genius.

I'm doing pretty well with not cyberstalking... .for a couple days now. It's not that hard currently because I basically want to hide in a cave right now and not talk to anyone. :/

Thanks for your perspective about not replying. That's what I'm sticking to. He will never see it the way I'm intending it, but I guess I have to be ok with being the villain in his eyes.