Were we brainwashed to never leave?

[Cromwell]

I always wondered if I would be the type of person susceptible to being brainwashed into say, a fanatical cult of some kind. Brushed the thought aside and laughed, thought I would be too stubborn personality for that.

Yet im not so sure anymore.

A lot of this BPD experience has made me question whether or not parts of it were a form of brainwashing, hypnotism, mind control to force me to stay. Ive read a few things about techniques such as gaslighting, there was an element of it.

There is just that feeling, whether it was carried out intentionally or not, but the results were the same, I felt brainwashed to stay in some way, the "love" just being perhaps the same that you would have for a cult leader.

Anyone else ever questioned the same feelings coming up? Seduction i could have walked away from. Love, well, I stuck around despite it not being to my core values of what love represents. So what was that strong magnetic pull each time - I dont know what brainwashing "feels like", but the whole mystique that my thoughts centered around my ex probably comes the closest to what id believe the term represents.

If I was in the position of my ex and had that heightened need to have caretakers, id have to have that skill, to indocrinate followers, retain them, discard only if they dont follow my own ideology and replace with new.

Have you at any time ever felt brainwashed by your partner to any extent?

[zachira]

I would say that anyone who is in an intimate relationship with a person with serious BPD is going to feel like they are being brainwashed because the person with BPD does not see the partner as a separate person and invalidates their reality. The challenge of breaking free from the person with BPD's influence is to start to see oneself more as a separate person who can make decisions that are based on one's values.

[Cromwell]

I would say that anyone who is in an intimate relationship with a person with serious BPD is going to feel like they are being brainwashed because the person with BPD does not see the partner as a separate person and invalidates their reality. The challenge of breaking free from the person with BPD's influence is to start to see oneself more as a separate person who can make decisions that are based on one's values.

thanks zachira that made a lot of sense, especially how the reality became invalidated.

Its why I cant ultimately go back, she will have had her lies as a defence mechanism mostly, a few times for personal gain, ultimately that magnitude of lying has the effect of twisting my perception of reality and I think that is where the feelings of being brainwashed come in. Not only do I wish I had someone who could have given me a firm shake and said "Cromwell!, Snap out of it!", I wish I could have done the same to her, the lies are pathological which make them all the more powerful.

[Clearmind]

Love, well, I stuck around despite it not being to my core values of what love represents.

Core values! 7 years post relationship my core values for a relationship are safety, trust, team, fun, loving, kindness, loyalty, respect, equality - which is diametric to the relationship I had with my ex. Why is it we distrust our inner gut instincts in these relationships?

Cromwell the answer lies within you not your ex. We attached for a reason and the answer to our healing is deep within us and why we bent our core values to please another - at the expense of ourselves and our happiness.

Love... .love is a feeling, its feeling equal to another, love is what we experience in any moment that we are with someone without having or believing any judgments about that person. I had plenty of judgement about my ex - while I was in the relationship and even after the first day I met him. I had to seek out the reason I felt I needed my ex at that point in my life   .

When we dig deep we begin to seek answers - it takes time, it takes patience.

Oxford definition of brainwashing: to force someone to accept your ideas or beliefs, for example by repeating the same thing many times or by preventing the person from thinking clearly. The operative word is "force" - we can only be responsible for our actions. So were we brainwashed to never leave? Maybe not - Why is it we stayed?

[EdR]

Hi there Cromwell!

I wouldn't call it brainwashing in my case, but I like that phrase nonetheless. I do think there are several little and even huge character traits that I still think are very positive ones. Those traits kept me (and to a certain degree still keep me) involved.

I have now switched jobs, went to several other churches and try to socialise every single time.
But both past and present have shown me that it is VERY rare to have this instant click.

So what is this click? Is it really a red flag? Well, I am not talking about 'do you want to come home with me tonight' stuff... .
I am talking about this feeling of two sensitive people who meet and are able to have a genuine and deep conversation from the get go.

With others it can take years to reach such a point. With most I never reached it. But with her and a certain percentage of the human population I feel that click right away.

It is a connection on an emotional level which kept and keeps me involved. It is that connection which perhaps brainwashed me in a way to use your words ;-)
And it is that connection which make me feel awfully hurt and confused by her behaviour... .

[Cromwell]

Yea brainwashing isnt the correct term but was useful to do some brainstorming, my ex didnt have much in the way of charisma that a charlatan sort of demi-god fanatic might need to brainwash, but it was like you said Edr exactly, that emotional sensitivity was there and before I met her my ex girlfriends would often describe me as a 'dark horse', but in an endearing way. Well within a few months I ended up sharing with her stuff I had never confided to anyone, not even my family. Was I brainwashed to do this, no, I realise from what Clearmind states - was i in a very emotionally vulnerable point in my life and felt a strong need to get that close and she displayed all the elements of being that person to be so emonioally meshed with, yep! She shared things in the first week that were, in hindisight, outrageous, I just have to question now if any of it was even true and not just pity appeals to cement me into the relationship she desperately needed at the time.

I think life circumstances play a part here, im in a much better place now, if I was back then, the relationship wouldnt have lasted more than a week and that is without all the experience and knowledge ive gained.

Its turning more 'surreal' at the phase im at now Edr, than it does hurt. Once I remove the mens rea or guilty mind from the equation, I dont take it as a personal attack like I reasonably did at first. Makes it slightly easier to digest what happened, took ages though.

[zachira]

Some thing else to think about: People with BPD are often empty and mirror others because they have no real constant core self. In romantic relationships, the nearly perfect mirroring, such as in I have all the same interests as you and am just like you in every way possible, can be intoxicating and make the partner feel like he/she has found the love of their life, which indeed makes it more difficult to leave the relationship.

[Turkish]

She shared things in the first week that were, in hindisight, outrageou

Yes. My ex's previous bf literally cat-called her on the street.  She never loved him but was with him for 8 months.  She ended up getting an RO on him.    much, 

Knowing that and also knowing that she was all in love with her bf before him should hands been enough warnings. Yet I still chose to plow ahead.

On our first and only recycle, I was relieved to detach, yet she said, "won't you fight for love z?" She broke up with me! I should have proceeded with my detaching plan but I chose to re-engage. Not brainwashing, but FOG, and I chose to follow it. 

I so wanted to prove that I was not the man whom she viewed all men.  That was about me more than her. 

[tin]

Yes I see how I was manipulated to stay in the relationship. The FOG- fear, obligation, and guilt were laid on me. The suicidal threats when I tried to leave. Attacking me to try to make me feel worthless. The guilt tripping- I must forgive him. Crying and telling me every hardship and every time anyone had been mean to him and how much he needed me to 'accept' him and to love him. Begging and grabbing me when I tried to walk away from a fight. Apologizing profusely and making promises, then acting like none of our previous conversations had ever happened so I'd have to confront him over and over again about the same things. Exhausting me with continual arguments. Demanding I take care of him because of all his 'stress' and 'trauma'. The sex was not good- we were unhappy and fighting so much. But having the comfort of being held and hugged and cuddled- I relied on that to get through all the suffering, stress, and conflict of being in the relationship. Whenever he did something terrible and hurtful- blaming me for it. Using my insecurities and fear and 'shortcomings' as justification for why I made him angry, unfaithful, mean, incapable of cleaning/doing anything. And POOF, being an energetic, happy, loving, charming, helpful person to everyone ELSE except for ME! After being those things around me at first, cutting me off over time and just taking out his stress on me, and being incredibly lazy and mean at home. Furthering the idea that it was 'my fault' and I made him act/feel that way, and he's a better person when I'm not around. And talking in circles, denying what he had said/done earlier, backtracking on mean things he said later, etc.  So many ways of manipulating me to stay.

[Skip]

I think brainwashing, gas-lighting, Stockholm syndrome are not very enlightening terms... .I don't think these things really help us understand what happened.

I might redirect toward words like "differentiation / poorly differentiated", insecure attachment, and codependency.

Tin mentions FOG- fear, obligation, and guilt. That is a good one.

Thousands of people walk by the schizophrenic homeless man at the bus terminal. A few reach out to give him money. A few threaten him. A few are engaged by him and can't figure out how to get away, and go home scared of the bus terminal.

One impaired man. Many different reactions to it. Why?

[gotbushels]

Thousands of people walk by the schizophrenic homeless man at the bus terminal.

ROFL Skip fabulous analogy. That punchline accurate to boot.

[Husband321]

Thousands of people walk by the schizophrenic homeless man at the bus terminal. A few reach out to give him money. A few threaten him. A few are engaged by him and can't figure out how to get away, and go home scared of the bus terminal.

One impaired man. Many different reactions to it. Why?

In this example I would think the vast majority feel uneasy and try to ignore. His problems are obvious and in plain sight.

I believe Marilyn Monroe was BPD.

Now let's say a single man meets her. A single man who has not heard of BPD.

And Marilyn starts mirroring you.  Great sex. Starts saying things like "I never met a man like you in my life". She lies about the past and present.  Also throws in some of the "helpless woman who has never been truly loved except by you. Everyone else used her.  Nobody made love to her.", I believe the vast majority of all men could very well be deeply sucked in. Not only that but it is a lifelong dream come true.

And when Marilyn vanishes, the vast majority of men would be hurt.

So that's why it feels like manipulation and "brainwashing".  Perhaps Marilyn means the things she says at the moment. And maybe her mind twists the past. .  But she does not appear to be sick or disordered like the panhandler. She is well spoken. Well put together.  Knows what she wants.  A success.  Fun. Charming. Witty. Sexy.

It's not until long after the discard that one can put together the pieces of her disorder.

[EdR]

I would like to try a different example than Marilyn Monroe. Because in Monroe's case her sensuality/sexuality would be a major red flag to me. Because I was friends with my PWBPD I also would like to remove 'great sex' from the equation. I didn't need those chemicals to create and feel a bond.

So let me see... .I am thinking about the Lady Di archetype. Whether or not she actually suffered from BPD is irrelevant for my example. I think she comes much closer to the character of my actual pwBPD.

Why do I get involved?
Well... .I like her character. She seems very gentle and shy. She is nice to people, but at the same time she seems strong and confident. Her character seems 'rounded'. Not just 1 dimensional. She comes to me for help and I gladly help her. With some of her friends she seems a little bitchy and easily influenced, but nothing out of the ordinary.

Why do I stay involved?
She opens up to me. She tells me things she doesn't tell others. Both the frequency and the nature of our contact intensify. She is consciously or unconsciously giving me weird signals: although she has all these friends and seems immensily popular, she has an aura of sadness surrounding her. She seems to feel alone, without actually being alone. I like to help her and take away some of that sadness and put a smile on her face. That makes me happy as well.

What is going wrong?
Eventually, her behaviour towards me seems to change all of a sudden. I don't know or understand what is happening, so I ask her about it. She makes it very clear that there is nothing wrong and she greatly values our friendship. However, rumours start to spread, she seems to be painting me black and whatever I do or don't do, the situation just gets worse.

Why don't I just call it quits?
This is the same almost angelic being as in the beginning. I must have done something wrong myself. I desperately try to look for reasons why she is acting this way! I try to use different perspectives and act upon it. At certain times I seem to get through: she seems to be her 'old normal self' again and she actually pretends nothing ever happened.
Professionals seem to suggest she might be catching feelings, but I refuse to believe that for a long time. I just cannot make sense of it all.
After months of this weird behaviour I am getting convinced by the 'professionals' and think this could be BPD traits... .

Why do I keep hurting?
I deeply cared about her. She didn't and doesn't explain anything to me. She seems to say sorry, but then suddenly blocks me without any reason just a few days after her apology.

But on the telly I keep seeing this angelic image, who is adored by everyone. Not just because of her looks, but because of her character.
I am left confused and deeply hurt. Is this actually the same person?


Maybe, in hindsight one could say the earliest sign of a red flag was in the 2nd phase. But to be honest, the real red flags only appeared in the third phase. But because everything seemed to be fine before that, I don't think one could identify them as easily... .

[I_Am_The_Fire]

I think Skip is on to something here and I agree. I think one key to understanding why we stayed is to look at ourselves, our pasts, and so on. Why did we allow ourselves to be treated this way? I agree Tin mentioned a good one - FOG.

I have to ask myself several questions. Why did I stay for close to twenty years with someone like this? Why did I allow myself to be treated this way? There is probably a pattern in my life. What is the pattern(s)?

Part of it was FOG. Part of it was because I was emotionally shutdown for most of my life for various reasons including my childhood and being in several abusive relationships one after another, not realizing they were abusive until recently. I grew up trying to always be the "good" kid. Trying to make my parents proud hoping for their affection. My father was very strict and very religious. Children should be seen and not heard. Asking questions was considered talking back and punishable with spankings. I was taught to accept blind obedience and it carried into adulthood. I rarely questioned anyone or anything. I followed the rules religiously. I went into survival mode over the years. Just trying to get through each day however I could. I never trusted my own instincts.

I also realized I'm a small woman and I come across as "helpless" to a lot of people. I was very demur and quiet. I think I attracted a certain type of guy - the ones who wanted to "rescue" me and "take care" of me. In reality they were all very controlling and manipulative, to the point of being abusive and I put up with it.

When it really comes down to it, part of me felt I deserved to be treated like this. I felt there was something wrong with me at my core being. I never felt accepted for who I was over the years. I felt my parents took care of me out of obligation, that I wasn't wanted. Knowing what I know now and thinking back, I think they tried the best they could at the time. I think they had their own issues that they were dealing with or not dealing with. I'm pretty sure they both had a wounded inner child. I know my inner child is very much wounded and I'm working on that with my therapist.

So over the years, I tried to become who people wanted me to be, not being my authentic self. That's why I was in and out of therapy over the years for depression. I think I was looking for someone to validate and accept me. I also felt it was not okay to be me because no one ever did accept me when I did try to show them who I was until now (I love my awesome fiance!). It felt like "everything" I did and said was wrong according to them. Looking back, I was probably the projection dumping ground for them. I gave up at some point and shutdown emotionally. Over the years, I lost my authentic self. I didn't know who I was or what I wanted or what I even liked. I went with who I thought I "should" be based on who I was with. I'm not even sure what the label for this is anymore. I know I was codependent and managed others' emotions to keep myself "safe". I didn't realize until a few years ago that I had to validate and accept ME as I am. I think that is the key for me for my healing - internal validation and acceptance.

BTW, I keep reading about intensity of BPD people in regards to looks, charm, sex, etc. As a note, my ex (BPD) was terrible in bed, not charming (very awkward socially), and not very good looking. We never really had an emotional bond either.

[MeandThee29]

I stayed in for a long time despite the distortions and verbal abuse. I really thought I could tough it out and make it go. I was choosing that, as unhealthy as that was.

Now he periodically tries to draw me in again as if we really have something. Why would I when he has stomped on my heart so many times? With the latest one, he wants to meet me alone in a hotel halfway in between. He claims that he will be kind. All of the evidence is that he utterly despises me and must absolutely have his way or he goes into "slash-and-burn" mode. It is beyond reason why he thinks I would want to do that other than the narcissism being at play.

[Harri]

I understand feeling like you were brainwashed.  My problem with that is that if gives the other person all of the power.  If they are so skilled they can brainwash you, what's to stop you from falling into the same trap again and again?  I prefer to keep, or get back, my own power.

[Zemmma]

the person with BPD does not see the partner as a separate person and invalidates their reality

So true! I always said, ":)on't make things up!" "Speak for yourself!" He'd say things like, "Well obviously you don't want this either!" or he'd out of the blue say something like, "I feel like xyz, too," (but ya, I never made a statement about that). So "too" doesn't apply.

I would get SO frustrated about this! At the end of our relationship, "Well obviously you aren't happy!" or "Obviously you want out too!" (nope that's you... ). Or in a dispute he would talk both sides of the argument he had already played out in his head. He thought he knew what all my responses would be, but he was always WRONG! "I know you think that's bull%&^F," or "I know you will just tell me to xyz," or I know you would say... .nope! You don't!

How many times did I try to tell him that HIS experience, was not MY experience? How many times did I have to tell him that HIS experience was not the REST OF THE WORLD'S experience? Because he was a miserable teen he just couldn't fathom that I had enjoyed my time in high school. "I can't believe you claim that was a good time!" He couldn't absorb the fact that it was a wondrous, glorious time in my life. But not just me! Every time he saw a teenager he imagined they were suffering and miserable inside because in high school HE was suffering and miserable. WHAT'S THAT ALL ABOUT? I got so tired of trying to explain to him that I was a different person, with different associations and feelings about things. This is a big reason why he always thought he was RIGHT, where there was no right or wrong. Thank you zachira for giving me another reason to be grateful I am out of this relationship. That was never going to change. It was hard to reason with this person.

EdR
I am with you... It was the good stuff that kept me there. The "connection" as you called it. When you find that very rare connection, ALMOST NOTHING will stop you from choosing to continue. Love is powerful!  In many cases here, we also did not choose to leave- it was forced upon us. I'd still be there despite the irrationality, jealousy, distorted thinking, etc., if he had not ended things. If the good is good enough, there will be no deal breakers. He reached me in a way no one else had. That kind of love connection can not be minimized, even if they discarded or mistreated in the end. This is why so many of us are here. Not because of shady behaviour. We are here because of the good. We fell in love with a person, not a disorder. The similarities in our experiences are due to the disorder, but we all (most?) fell in love with an individual with qualities we truly admired.

[Turkish]

I ran into one of my junior high bullies quite by accident when I was 22 or 23, exiting the local bowling alley bar. His first response was,  "Turkish, you got BIG!" Without a pause, he said something like,  "hey, I knew I gave you such a hard time back in the day,  and I'm sorry I did that." I forgave him, and he was horrible back then.  I really did and it was sincere from both of us. 

I told me ex that story like 17 years later and she said,  "I don't know why you did that.  I wouldn't have!" It made me sad, her angry view of the world,  and I realized what a mismatch we were.

I forgave "Bob the Vietnam Ex Navy SEAL" for bullying me in tech school when I was 18-19. He became a good buddy afterwards ... .even if he later drunk cried on my shoulder telling me details of what he did in 'Nam which I won't repeat here. 

My ex was too consumed by her own pain to consider mercy and grace.

[BreatheFirst]

I think I was conditioned to not leave through his behaviour. But then he started to disrespect me saying why didn't I leave when I complained about his behaviours.

I think I got sucked into this vortex because I was a nice, considerate and compassionate person who always tried to see the good in people and be positive.  I felt sorry/had compassion for him for the trouble he said he had with his ex-wife and custody issues, I could understand the career challenges he faced, the family problems, etc.    I was way too damn understanding of bloody everything!

I did notice the red flags but rationalised them away because he was loving to me on the whole.  I now can see a bit more clearly... .but I still care about him. So somewhere I have been brainwashed a bit.  Most of my friends are horrified that I hadn't drawn a line/set up boundaries. But I was trying to keep our family together and I thought he loved me but we were just misundertanding each other and miscommunicating. I had lost sight of what was a healthy relationship.

[BreatheFirst]

P.S. TO Turkish

my ex said some very similar things.  I agree no mercy or grace... .or gratitude or humility in him (in my ex's case).  He could only see himself and came across very entitled and not generous.