Wife’s therapist cutting my legs out from under me. Part 2

[Ltahoe]

Part 1 of this topic can be found HERE

FF so let’s address some things about your suggested plan. I’m not familiar with therapy as I’ve just started. Is it normal to request that therapists share notes or concerns that the other party should be made aware of and discussed. Two has anyone you’ve known done what you’re suggesting I do and what was the outcome?  

[formflier]

FF so let’s address some things about your suggested plan. I’m not familiar with therapy as I’ve just started. Is it normal to request that therapists share notes or concerns that the other party should be made aware of and discussed. Two has anyone you’ve known done what you’re suggesting I do and what was the outcome? 

To share details on a regular basis is likely unusual.  Again... i'm not suggesting that.

My idea.

1.  You offer to make yourself available for discussions with your wife's T and your wife, "due to alarming judgments you have heard from your wife" (we can tweak language).  "Perhaps my point of view would be useful"

2.  You offer the two Ts (yours and your wife to have some contact)

3.  You "define" your openness to be in a therapeutic setting, vice at home listening to your wife relay her therapists judgments.  (again... we can tweak this)

Most likely outcome:  T will thank you and nothing more will happen, wife will freak out (very important you don't get drawn in), your T will thank you and likely not act on this (perhaps in the future), you will start responding differently to your wife's "T talk", your wife will freak out (perhaps even worse)

At some point your wife will realize "this isn't working anymore"... .then things get interesting and perhaps move in a healthier direction.

By then you will have some T under your belt... and you will have our support... .and you won't be getting drawn in to the notion that you are a sexually controlling testosterone filled dominator of the female sex.  Perhaps your wife even starts asking to be controlled and dominated...

Who knows...

Clarity... .your wife freaks out... that's what she does.  So... don't let that alarm you... or control you.
FF

[Ltahoe]

Doesn’t matter now . Ball is in therapists and wife’s court.

[Ltahoe]

So I left a message for wife’s therapist basically saying

Hi T this is so and so

I’m calling because I love my wife and highly value my marriage.  Normally I’m unaware of what takes place during wife’s therapy sessions, but recently I’ve been made aware of a couple concerning things coming from therapy. These would be the self harming threats, and potential accusations. I’m not looking for an ongoing therapist client relationship with you but would like to and am open with meeting with you on a one on one basis or with you, my wife and myself.

I don’t want to be involved in the confidential or personal part of therapy. I do want to address the concerns and my relations to them and how to better handle these concerns going forward. If for some reason such as conflict of interest or an unwillingness to be able to meet exists, I have started therapy and am open to having relevant non personal notes and concerns shared that can be adressed during my therapy sessions. 

Thanks Feel free to contact me at blah blah blah

[formflier]

Solid work.

DO NOT tell your wife that you called.

Let T inform her.  Wait and see.

Ball is in their court.

FF

[Ltahoe]

Ya I won’t, I’ll wait. Therapist is out of office til Next week then we’ll be on vac by then.  Technically the wife said it’s the therapist not willing to see me.  So by wife’s word I went to the person that was holding it back. Idk it’s hard to tell what will come of it. As you say they can interpret it how they want. If she rages  All I’m saying is I’m offering myself to help.

I really don’t have intentions of cutting of the therapist from wife. Or figuring out the past so it’ll be a forward looking thing. It’s kind of crazy to think just offering myself up for therapy is a scary thing because of potential rages. I think that’s what gets me about the controlling thing, I have less control than more. I just realized the comment I made about passively sitting there doesn’t fix anything, so WTH. Maybe this won’t work either but I already know sitting there doesn’t work either. 

[Cat Familiar]

Ltahoe,
That is an excellent communication.   Very clear and straightforward.   Good work!

Cat

[Enabler]

Outstanding work and very well centred. I was thinking about this over the last 24hrs and it very much fits with the karpman triangle again. Where the T is (potentially as we don’t know if anything your wife is saying re T’s opinion is factual) a blind (flying monkey) rescuer. The T offers fantasy supporting validation and helps further your wife’s narrative of being a victim and you the perpetrator. By offering yourself as “I’ve no interest in being involved long term but offer myself in a centred way, you are hopefully offering the opportunity to remove yourself as the perpetrator and appear somewhat miffed about such a suggestion.  FWIW the T should never adopt the rescuer role and should always centre themselves... .however I guess to build a bond of trust the T may well offer rescuing validation. T’s should not validate things they do not know first hand... .that’s dangerous.

[Notgoneyet]

 Ltahoe,
 I'd like to agree w FF,Cat Fmlr,& Enabler. All great feedback/advice. You did a great job with it all & after the dust settles I'm convinced some good will come of it all.                                                                                                     6+ yrs is a ridiculous amount of time to be in T without some meaningful & noticeable improvement. I consider myself a little bit of an expert on the subject of T & C. having been in the school of hard nocks w this.   
   Keep up the good fight, NGY    

[Enabler]

Hey Ltahoe,

Sorry, I have been off the proverbial pitch for a few days due to kids nuking my work phone whilst I was away on holiday. What's been the fallout from this?

Enabler

[Ltahoe]

Well the therapist contacted the wife and asked if it was ok/approval to have me see her. Wife told therapist it’s fine. Then wife asked what I said told her that I’m just making myself available and to see how we can resolve our conflicts better, and adress some things that have been brought up. Things that maybe we can work on in our therapy and I don’t want to discuss it in full detail because I’m not trying to mean anything bad by it, and since we already have issues communicating might as well save that for a therapist to help us out.  Wife did seem somewhat worried or annoyed by the idea, never outright says so but I could tell it preoccupied her thoughts for awhile, by subtle things she said. We were on vac so I don’t expect anything to unfold for a good few weeks. 

[formflier]

So... .did that go as you expected it would?

What do you think about the direction things appear to be going now?

FF

[Ltahoe]

Well it went better than expected, I suppose now it’s just patience.

[formflier]

Well it went better than expected, I suppose now it’s just patience.

Right... .compare what happened to her "statements" and "threats" and "things she would never do".


Listen... eventually she will push back on this.  Relax... perhaps some surprise and lots of listening.  That feeling/push will likely pass.

Think about how you "did this" and compare it to past stuff.

I'm hoping you see a lot less talking and more "action" on your part... .putting ball back in her court through your action... not words.

What's next?  When do you meet the T?  Joint meeting or just you?

We need to work on how you approach this... .understanding... .NOT court case where you worry about facts.

FF

[Ltahoe]

 Wife scheduled her therapy appointment at a time I can’t attend cause of work, go figure. Idk what will come of it, I’ve given explicit instructions to set up an appointment at specific times or after if she wants me to attend. I spoke with my therapist about this and told her I wish I could just meet wife’s therapist alone. My therapist feels couples won’t be any good until she does DBT. Feels that since wife can’t accept anything that she thinks is criticism or threatening that wife will just circle back to divorce threats or self harm. My T says my wife’s T called my wife because until my wife signs any consent I’m not allowed to see her therapist at all or have contact with that T due to laws. So I’m going to most likely have to ask my wife outright to sign the consent, or just skip out on work one day and go.

[Cat Familiar]

Sorry to hear that she set up a roadblock. I do agree with your T that couples counseling with a pwBPD is possibly a waste of therapeutic time. I do think however it would be very helpful for your wife's T to meet with you, whether alone or with your wife, in order to get her own impression of you and the ways you and your wife interact.

[formflier]

It's likely worth taking the day off... calling in sick, whatever... .to go this one time.  Handle things in person.

How long until the appointment?

Is it possible to make it... just this once?

FF

[Ltahoe]

I probably will consider it my work is lax on vacation use, or just making sure I get my hours for the day, granted don’t want to over play the system. So next time she goes I’ll probably let her know the day of I’ll meet her there.

[Enabler]

Agree with your T here but this meeting is nothing to do with “couples counselling”, this is about you getting fantasy and reality slightly closer together and showing the T you... .since your wife is ‘telling’ you that the T feels informed enough to make judgements about YOU. I would definitely NOT commit to an extended series of meetings.

[formflier]

I probably will consider it my work is lax on vacation use, or just making sure I get my hours for the day, granted don’t want to over play the system. So next time she goes I’ll probably let her know the day of I’ll meet her there.

Have you already told her you can't make it?  (I hope not)

Please don't complain or otherwise mention it.

So... .how did you find out about this?  It sounds like the assumption is you are supposed to be there... right?

It also seems like she "conveniently" picked a time when she thought you couldn't make it? (I get it there is guess work here... but did she make any comments about this?)

My gut says you make your appointments... .you have your own ride... she has her ride.

Many of us "nons"  try to "overcommunicate".  The more we toss out there... .the more ammo for them.

Certainly we should talk more about goals and what you want to bring up... .how to present yourself.

I'm voting 110% for take off work and go.  Certainly explain in person the times that work better and best... .don't suggest any malevolence in the time that was picked.

If it comes up... .how did you get there today.  "Oh... I value my marriage so I showed up."  (no further explanations)... .(probably could sweeten that phrase up a bit)

FF

[formflier]

Agree with your T here but this meeting is nothing to do with “couples counselling”, this is about you getting fantasy and reality slightly closer together and showing the T you... .since your wife is ‘telling’ you that the T feels informed enough to make judgements about YOU. I would definitely NOT commit to an extended series of meetings.

I would "commit" to be open an available to helping your wife's therapy goals.

I would also express hope that she would be available for yours.

At some point I would ask the T point blank her opinion on how to determine when MC is appropriate.

We certainly should talk through how to bring up the crazy things your wife has relayed.  At first blush, I would think asking for clarification... .because what you heard you assumed had to be wrong.

Then toss out the crazy thing for comment, perhaps followed up by "I just can't imagine this is accurate but my wife and I weren't able to clarify it in our private conversations... .so it's been concerning me."

Leave door wide open for T to wiggle out of this or clarify... .halfway close door for your wife... .ask if she remembers conversation

You will either get clarification or (most likely) a slam dunk opportunity to suggest (wonder aloud) perhaps it's best we only talk about this stuff in T, given all this confusion. 

then... with concern...

"Babe... was it helpful to talk about what your therapist said about me?"  (again... .not a direct assault... but... .she has to wrestle with some things)

Either... .she claims she never talked which you agree must be confusion... therefor we never talk about T outside of T again... .OR... .what were you wanting me to understand by saying those things.

I always find it fun to "reverse the double bind"

Heads I win... .tails I win as well (remember... in "non world" everyone wins)


FF

[Ltahoe]

Ya I’ll do what it takes to get in. I’ll probably just tell her next appointment I know of, I’ll meet you at T office in 45 mins. Really late notice, so she can’t really back out .

As far as couples yes that’s the longer term plan, I think my T wants wife in DBT before we try anything much though. So the main thing would be getting her to at least try some DBT. Probably one of the main purposes of seeing her T also, ending the drama Triangle she has with T. Also asking what the T current plan of action is how it’s working and how DBT could fit in.

I might outright ask my wife to just sign the release too, if I can’t get into the next session I’ll probably just tell her to sign the release since she can’t make an appointment that works for us both and seems more convenient that we just attend separate when we have time.

[Cat Familiar]

Good plans on the horizon, Ltahoe. 

[Cat Familiar]

So, Ltahoe, what's the latest?