Undiagnosed BPD? How will daughters grow where there is no respect for father?

[Mellon Collie]

Hi everybody, this is my first post.
English is not my first language so maybe some expressions could not be correct formally or in terms of the words i use.

My situation is the following: I suspect my wife could suffer from BPD, we’ve been married for 10 years, 13 together as a couple and we’ve 2 daughters.
There have always been some strange behaviours and something I felt strange in our relationship and in her behaviour regarding overreactions and non logical thinking in certain conversations but somehow I minimized those things supposing she may have been stressed for something and somehow I felt responsible for her reactions to certain situations, I tried to change my behaviour and to help in everything I could regarding the day by day activities our family is dealing with but the feeling I got was that whatever I did was never enough.
Then this winter came, my father who’s been suffering for many years for a degenerative brain disease (he hasn’t been speaking nor recognizing me since many years, nor being able to eat by himself) got worse and I was confronted with more pain regarding this situation until he passed away.
I needed to talk with someone about this pain and I sadly realized that my wife wasn’t there when I needed her the most or maybe she was there phisically but I needed her to be somehow supportive to me.
Thinking back to that period I can say that things started to get worst for our relationship.
I don’t want to be seen as a victim, what I’m trying to say is that probably in that period I was less available at home and the perception could be that I started acting differently or that I needed something different than what was usually perceived.
The “episodes”, as I call them, became more frequent, more intense and what was triggering them was losing any sense to me:
she accused me of cheating, screamed many times that I have to leave the house (in front of our girls) and the family, calling me names in public, she is sarcastic if I tell her what I’m trying to do to heal myself and be a better man and a better father; I see the same schemas repeating and repeating.
I’ve many more in my minds and for some of them I still feel ashamed in letting the thing degenerate.

Before realizing that BPD could be the main issue I tried almost everything to try to keep those episodes not affecting me: I tried to be calm and assertive while answering the accusations and things went worse, I tried to answer using the same tone and hell was arriving in my house, I tried not to answer anything and it didn’t work.
Definitely I made many mistakes too.
While I was realizing I was full of resentment for her behaviour, I started to think that what was going on was maybe a bad way to manifest her suffering.
After a few days, while doing some internet searching, I came by the DSM BPD traits and things suddenly made sense as she has, to me, 8 out of 9 traits; I started reading articles to understand better and then after a couple of weeks I arrived here at the BPD family: reading some of your stories really resonated in me and reading the good advices given in the board discussions really helped me.

One of my main concerns is that she rarely takes responsibility for anything happening in her life, it’s always my fault, her boss fault, her friend who did something.
On top of this there is an alcool dependance and also a dependance on drugs.
The good thing is that she started going to a therapist some weeks ago and hopefully she will gain some insight of what’s going on, even if the approach is like the therapist should have the magic to take her out of her pain without her doing some work on herself

I realized during the last months that I definitely enabled those kind of treatment and that I needed to do something for us and for myself before losing everything and before surrendering to the outcome of a failed relationship.
I realized a little bit more about my suffering from emotional deprivation, or maybe emotional neglect, when I was a kid and that definitely I became what is called a codependent.
I tried to get things done to improve my lowered self esteem and to get some time for me, it helped me tremendously with my mood but one of the fallback was that I got blamed for not being there when she needed something.
I’m reading books and probably I should see a therapist for myself.
I’m keeping a journal to write my thoughts, my feelings and to keep track of the “episodes” too.
I try my best every day to be a good husband and a good father
I try to set limits and healty boundaries in the relationship with my wife and in other relationships; this is definitely something I should have started to do much time ago

There are still many beautiful moments between us, and she really is a smart and nice person when the mood is good, and an excellent  mother too but there are many thoughts in my mind in this period:
How much energy is used that could be used to get things better for our family?
I get out of the weekends feeling more tired than on friday, the energy is used for discussions and not for doing beautiful things together
I start feeling some anxiety as we prepare to leave for a weekend outside the city or when we go to celebrate something as there is always the risk that 30 minutes before leaving she’ll start saying to go by ourselves.
How will my daughters grow in a house where there is no more respect for their father? What will they learn?
If I’m leaving, could I be a better father having less time with them but focusing more on them during that time?
Will she harm herself if I leave?

I don’t know if this is the right board as my mood is between “bettering a relationship” and “conflicted”

What I understood during the last few weeks is that I cannot fix this alone and the best thing I can do for her, for my daughters and for me is not going down in the dark hole and trying my best not only to survive but to improve myself.
I want to be and I'll be responsible for my journey through life.

I welcome any suggestion and question and I’ll try to answer any questions that will be posted in the more honest and objective way I can.

Thanks to anyone who arrived till the end of the post and to anyone who will reply

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[pearlsw]

Hi Mellon Collie,

No worries! Your use of English is quite good and easy to follow.



It is understandable as you are coming to terms with this that you aren't quite sure if you want to try to better things or leave. We are here to support you in either case.

Sorry to hear how stressful your home life is, especially that you are not able to rest on the weekends.

How do you think your kids are being affected by this? What are their ages?

Yes, the first thing to do is actually to put the focus on yourself - to work on building up your understanding and awareness of the issues you face and then deciding how you want to approach it. These are not easy decisions. No matter what though, learning more about good communication will help - whether you stay together or end up apart.

with compassion, pearl.

[Mellon Collie]

Hi Pearl,
thanks for your support and for taking your time and replying to my post.
My daughters are twins, 8 years old.

The first things that come to my mind when I think about how they are being affected is when they see us arguing on something and not being able to resolve the conflict speaking calmly, they see how a conflict can escalate involving anger and raising the voice; this is not the example I'd like to transmit to my daughters, nor the image of how a family should behave when difficulties arise.
I think it's normal from time to time to argue, or disagree on things, or to deal with difficulties but I'd like to work on difficulties as a team, and engage  in conflicts trying to solve them, not worsening the situation.

The other thing, that happened only twice and only recently but should've never happened, is that they heard their mom saying that she wants to die. This was hard for me and I could see the look in their eyes as they didn't understand how their mom could say something like that.

[pearlsw]

Hi Mellon Collie,

Oh, I hear you! I grew up in a house where I did not see my parents argue, so being with someone so difficult has been very disappointing and draining and strange for me. I'm not saying my parents didn't have problems, they did, but I have always been so grateful not to have been exposed to ugly ways of speaking between them.

I hope you will stay around and take some time to learn and discuss the resources here. It may be possible to improve the situation, or at least not worsen it. You may find that just by doing a lot of work on yourself - with understanding and practicing new ways of speaking you can experience better outcomes.

Which of the BPD symptoms does your wife exhibit? Would you say she is severe or more moderate in terms of her expressions of this illness?

take care, pearl.

[Mellon Collie]

Hi Pearl,
I understand and I deeply feel that there is a way to improve the communication and not to worsen the situation and I think that whatever the evolution of our relationship will be, I'll be with her or I'll be coparenting with her so improving my way to communicate will be useful for everyone who is involved.

Regading the BPD symptoms my wife exhibits, I would say that these are severe, at least to me as she was never diagnosed and I have never spoken to her therapist; I put them form the most severe to the least:

• Inappropriate, intense anger or difficulty controlling anger; as I said in my previous posts there are situation where the anger is so strong and not related to the moment, I'd call it rage
• Frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment; I feel many times she is really scared about being abandoned even if she's saying the opposite thing, like she would like to foce the situation she fears the most
• A pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation; with me but also with her mother and some friends.
• Impulsivity in at least two areas that are potentially self-damaging: substance abuse, spending and cycles between binge eating followed by strict diet
• Recurrent suicidal threats

These are moderate but still affecting everyday life:

• Identity disturbance: markedly and persistently unstable self image or sense of self; I'm not sure if I get it right but I recognize that she often feels like she feels non existent and she doesn't know who she is, she misses something to anchor herself to the ground. One moment she feels and act like she's the most beautiful and interesting person in the room and 5 minutes later she feels and acts like she's the least beautiful and least interesting in the room
• Affective instability due to a marked reactivity of mood; mainly because of anxiety and irritability
• Chronic feelings of emptiness, I cannot say if it's chronic but it's recurring

I'm taking my time to learn as much as I can about the resources here and I'm sure everything will add up and be useful.
Thanks for changing the subject of the thread, you understood my main concern at the moment: my girls.
I'm not sure if I get the meaning: where there is respect or where there is no respect for the father?

Thanks for the support Pearl, I really feel it.
Take care, MC

[pearlsw]

Hi Melon Collie,

Oh yes, many of us have undiagnosed partners. I sometimes wish I had that diagnosis in hand, so to speak, but since I don't and I don't see how I ever will, it is just as well to focus on the behaviors.

Sorry about that. I fixed the retitle. We do that sometimes so other members can focus in on a stand out point of another member's thread.

You mention she issues with alcohol and drugs... .Are you kids safe in her care? Does she do things that put them in danger? Does her use make her neglectful of the kids?

Can you tell us more about the self harm? You mention you think she might do that if you were to leave her.

Are there other fathers here reading with this that can lend some support or insights? If so please feel free to share with us!

warmly, pearl.

[Mellon Collie]

Hi Pearl,

 

Sorry about that. I fixed the retitle. We do that sometimes so other members can focus in on a stand out point of another member's thread.

No problem, really, you made a good job in retitling; I'm focused on that too and I'd like to read other fathers' opinions.

The kids are safe in her care and fortunately they've never been put in danger by her behaviours but regarding the neglect I can say that many times, due to alcohol or drug abuse, she couldn't be able to take care of them properly if someone else wasn't around; for example not being able to get the breakfast or lunch done, forgetting things (like costumes when you need to take them to a swimming pool party) or last minute calls to change program or ask someone to care for them or drive them somewhere.

Regarding self harm I must say that, apart from the substance abuse, there've been many threats but not real self harm; what I feel though is like keeping me in a cage, as if some of those threats are said to make me stay in the relationship because of the possible self harming reactions.
Like when she says that I'll never see the girls again if I leave, which of course is something that couldn't happen and that is said in the moment without logical thinking.

A big hug Pearl,
MC

[Radcliff]

MC,

I'm the father of three girls who I've raised with my uBPDw.  I admire your strength and your determination to learn, as well as your ability to express yourself in written English on very difficult topics (better than many native speakers!  ).  I want to take some time to catch up on your thread, but for now wanted to send you a "hello."  I'm sorry for the difficult place you are in, but I'm glad you have found us.  You are not alone.

WW

[pearlsw]

Hi Pearl,

 No problem, really, you made a good job in retitling; I'm focused on that too and I'd like to read other fathers' opinions.

The kids are safe in her care and fortunately they've never been put in danger by her behaviours but regarding the neglect I can say that many times, due to alcohol or drug abuse, she couldn't be able to take care of them properly if someone else wasn't around; for example not being able to get the breakfast or lunch done, forgetting things (like costumes when you need to take them to a swimming pool party) or last minute calls to change program or ask someone to care for them or drive them somewhere.

Regarding self harm I must say that, apart from the substance abuse, there've been many threats but not real self harm; what I feel though is like keeping me in a cage, as if some of those threats are said to make me stay in the relationship because of the possible self harming reactions.
Like when she says that I'll never see the girls again if I leave, which of course is something that couldn't happen and that is said in the moment without logical thinking.

Hi MC,

  's to you too!

That sounds pretty tough - to have a co-parent who isn't able to fully handle her responsibilities. Does she have any interest in getting any help so she can be a healthy/more effective parent? With all due respect, and not knowing what drug(s) she is using, I think it can be a danger to have an addicted parent. People with substance abuse problems tend to make obtaining more drugs their first priority at all costs. Obtaining one's drugs from a dealer, if the drugs are illegal in your country, can also make things dangerous/dicey. Do you have any interest in setting firmer boundaries around this for the protection of your kids? Do the kids know she is using drugs? How does she act when she is using alcohol? How much alcohol is she drinking/when?

Making threats to you about the kids like this is unacceptable. I know it is easy for us to get used to such threats and insults and not take them 100% seriously after awhile, but speaking to you this way is not okay - it basically makes you a like hostage in your own home.

Are you documenting what she is doing and saying incase things get even worse and to keep track of the reality of what you are experiencing?

sincerely, pearl.

[Radcliff]

MC,

OK, I've caught up on your thread.  Yes, 8 out of 9 traits is very serious.

Are you keeping a journal where you document the things that are happening?  If you ever need to call for outside help, it can be very hard to get people to understand the level of dysfunction unless you have many details.  Because sometimes we are working so hard to just make it from one day to the next, we often forget or minimize the problems as a defense mechanism.

You seem extremely thoughtful and diligent in your research and efforts to make the situation better for your family.  One of the things we teach here is coping tools to reduce conflict and protect ourselves.  You have probably already figured out some ways to reduce conflict, or have read about coping tools.  What have you learned so far?  Are there any situations that you are currently uncertain how to deal with?

WW

[Mellon Collie]

Hi Pearl,
it's been a long long week but here I am
I just have a few minutes so I'll be quick in answering and I'll try to be back later this evening.

She started to see a therapist a few weeks ago but I feel it will be a long journey with the therapist as things seem to be going really slow with the therapy.
Every now and then she says she will stop going there.
Regarding the substance abuse I agree with you about the danger of having an addicted parent and I don't use them, I just drink 1 or 2 glasses of wine at dinner and a little more in the weekends; what kind of boundaries should I set about the drug use? I mean, should I threat leaving if she still use it?
The kids don't know she's using drugs, they just know she likes drinking and when she drinks she behaves in different ways: one time she's nice, happy and a good company for everyone; one time she's norty, angry with the world and everyone around suffers about this.
As far as documenting things I'm keeping a journal on my phone to keep track of things, I registered some audio one night but I'm not sure it was a good idea as this made her angry about this.

A big hug,
MC

[Mellon Collie]

Hi WW,
thanks for posting on my thread, I've been keeping a journal but it's more for me than for documenting things I could show to someone one day. I mean it wouldn't be easy to demonstrate my reality to someone who never witnessed it, even though I've some friends who were present in certain circumstances.

Because sometimes we are working so hard to just make it from one day to the next, we often forget or minimize the problems as a defense mechanism.

This is so true! I've been there so many times, minimizing her behavior, saying it was just a bad day and forgetting things.
I've been reading a lot of the resources here and a lot of threads; I've been learning about emotional validation which is definitely something I should apply more often and I've been learning about understanding some of those behaviors as the projection of some of her fears.
The most difficult situation for me is when I "get caught in the trap" and I start to JADE; when this happens things escalate very quickly and they escalate with the worst possible outcome.
I'll try to explain this:
one common thing is that when I see some recurring patterns but her focus is for something outside of our relationship, I can asses things more clearly and react in a way which helps the situation calm down; when the focus is about something that, according to her, I may have done, or I may have not done, or I should have, more often than not I'm not able to detach from the situation and the conflict escalates quickly.
I hope that what I wrote makes sense

Another thing I've noticed is that, when the girls are not around, like during the last few days as they're with their grandparents, I feel that, without them at home, there are less restraints in her behavior and as a consequence this week has been really hard.
I'll try to be back later or tomorrow.

A big hug,
MC

[Radcliff]

Going back to your original post, you asked some important questions:

How will my daughters grow in a house where there is no more respect for their father? What will they learn?
If I’m leaving, could I be a better father having less time with them but focusing more on them during that time?

The fact that your wife is modeling inappropriate behavior in front of your daughters towards you is a serious problem.  They are at risk of picking up some of her behaviors and carrying them into adult life. 

What do you know of your wife's childhood?  Does she have a background of being abused as a child?  Do you know her parents?

You are weighing whether to continue to raise your children with the whole family together or if establishing a separate respectful home where you can have them some of the time would be better.  I have three thoughts for you:

* This is the right board to start on.  Dedicate yourself to learning the coping tools and getting your family life to the best place you can get it (you can only control your part of the situation, not hers).  Don't make any judgments about the future until you're confident you've gotten the most you can out of the tools and improving your responses.

* Be deliberate about the decision of whether or not to go or stay.  Don't just spend next 3-10 years stumbling from one day to the next (I've done that, it's an easy trap to fall into).

* Be conscious of time.  One mentor told me to do all the learning and improvement I could, plus decide, in 24 months, and that I may know sooner.  If you wait until your daughters are teenagers, and they align themselves with their mother after a split, your ability to lead and teach them to lead a healthy life as their father could be severely limited.  Because kids are conditioned to keep the least healthy person calm, they often align with the least healthy person during a split.  If you do decide to split and coparent, it may mean a lot for your daughters if you can do it when they are younger.  This would be a good topic to get an opinion from a therapist on.

OK, that's it for the somber, hard messages.  You identified 8 of 9 criteria, so I wanted to raise those thoughts.  The good news is that you can often get major improvements in day-to-day life by mastering the skills we teach here.  Dig in!  One of the main benefits of this message board is that we can help you by going over examples as you learn to apply the tools in real life.  It often doesn't go smoothly!  When it doesn't, let us know what happened and we can help you think about improvements for the next time.

Have you ever attended an Al-anon meeting?  With the heavy burdens you are carrying, you need support.  Al-anon can provide you with crucial fellowship and in-person support, and is a valuable addition to the support we offer here.  I highly recommend it.

You bring up a good question about how it's easier to avoid JADE and use your patience and other tools when your wife is not directing her criticism at you.  With practice you can get better, but the most useful trick to use at first is to delay to give yourself time to think calmly.  Sometimes you may want to delay just a few seconds, and other times an hour or a day.  Ask her for more detail.  Or say something like "Thank you for letting me know about that, you've given me something to think about."  Statements that don't agree with her or disagree with her.  Often, with some delay, later you may still feel she's wrong, but care a lot less about it.  Or sometimes you'll realize she's right, and you can tell her!

Other strategies are:
* Use "partial validation."  Pick a piece of what she is saying that is true, and validate that, deflecting attention away from the parts you don't agree with
* Try to figure out the underlying emotion that's driving her criticism.  What is her fear?  Then try to help with that, rather than with the symptom.

Next time she criticizes you, try to remember as much detail as possible about what she said and how you responded, and how she responded to your response.  Then come tell us about it and we can coach you.

How are you sleeping?  Are you sleeping together?  Are you able to have a regular bedtime and sleep through the night?

WW

[Radcliff]

I would also recommend taking a look at our book reviews.  Let us know if any of the books catch your eye, and if you have any questions.

WW

[Mellon Collie]

Hi WW,
thanks for your thoughts and your suggestions.
I'm not in the right mood to answer to your questions without being so much emotionally involved so I'll take some time and I'll be back when I feel I'm not conditioned as I am in the moment about what you raised.
I just wanted to thank you because you gave me good thoughts and good questions to think about.

Have a nice evening,
MC

[Radcliff]

Understood, this is heavy stuff.  Answer when you're ready.  Stay with us.  We're here for you!  You are not alone.

WW

[Mellon Collie]

Hi WW,
you gave me so much to think about and it's been a busy week but I'm back here
I'll start answering your questions.
As far as I know she hasn't been abused as a child, at least not physically, but she has a love&hate relationship with her mom; I know her parents, they live far from where we are but we manage to spend some days together every 3-4 months (you know like 10 days at christmas, 15 days in summer, 5 days at easter, something like that); they're nice with me and with my daughters but there is something my wife still suffers from her childhood with her parents.

If you do decide to split and coparent, it may mean a lot for your daughters if you can do it when they are younger.  This would be a good topic to get an opinion from a therapist on.

I'd like to understand more about this point; because maybe until 1 or 2 years ago I felt like doing my best to keep the family together was the best thing I could do, but now my gut tells me that it would probably be better co-parenting and being a good model for them, even if outside the house.

Regarding being conscious about time you're definitely right but what I think and feel right now is that even if you love (or loved) a person and you still care about her a lot, life is yours and it's too short to be spent trying to "adjust" things which in the end are not under your control.
I found really helpful your strategies and I started applying them; taking time to delay and using partial validation helped me a little but not in the way I expected, maybe later I'll come back to this point.

We're still sleeping together and my sleep is quite regular; what I feel, though, is that I'm get sometimes anxious just at the idea of what could happen after coming home, or getting in the weekend.
Now it's been a few days I'm at home alone because she went to her parents where our daughters are for this month, and I'm more relaxed. I don't know how to explain the feeling and I hate to say it but I probably feel better by myself, not having to weight every word I say or whatever I do. I'm sure you got the point.
The last week when she was at home and the girl were at their grandparents' has been terrible, after one arguing she went to a window and, without saying anything she just jumped on the window, it was the first time she did that but I was scared.
I took her down and the day after it was like nothing hasn't happened; at evening I asked what the hell she was doing and she answered she just wanted to see how it looked from that height.
When she is in that mood she asks me not to go her parents, to decide if we stay together or no, and after 5 minutes she tells me we must be together forever.

And when this happens I think she's so disconnected from reality, not only emotionally unstable.

Anyway, tomorrow I'll reach my family and I'm sure I'll manage to have a nice week, at least with my daughters, hopefully with my wife too.

A big hug,
MC

[Mellon Collie]

I just re-read my post, and I re-read it before I posted it  
What I meant is that the feeling better myself is not an absolute feeling, is probably just related to the actual situation; so I feel better being just by myself these days but I've no clue on how it would be if it was the everyday life.
Answering your question regarding al-anon, I just went once but as a "family member" as one of my best friends had (and unfortunately he still has) a huge problem with alcohol, so I was there more for giving support to him than for getting support for myself.

MC

[Radcliff]

I can definitely relate to being happier being alone, or happier being just with my kids and not with my wife.  Interactions with a pwBPD can be so strained and so illogical and painful a break can be a relief.  It doesn't mean we don't love them, you can think of it like a break from heavy caretaking of someone with a physical illness.

When you spoke of going to a meeting with your friend, I think you were talking about Alcoholics Anonymous (AA)?  There is a separate but similar organization intended for family members of alcoholics called Al-anon.  If there are AA meetings in your area I would think there would also be Al-anon meetings.  The recommendation is to try out six different meetings to see which one(s) fit you best, since different groups have different feels.  I highly recommend it.  In-person fellowship is very important.

Have you been able to meet your wife's therapist?  Is she doing a program like DBT, which is intended for BPD, or is it a different kind of therapy?

WW

[pearlsw]

Hi Melon Collie,

Just wanted to check back in and see how you are doing lately? Are you learning the tools, getting a chance to practice them?

When you say she jumped on the window, what do you mean? (I know prepositions can be hard to get right!) Was she simulating a suicide attempt?

sincerely, pearl.