Fantasy thoughts

[LeneLu]

There have been a few threads here about the fantasy of one's BPD apologizing or opening up to cooperation.  I wish for everyone here that they would experience that.  Part of my fantasy apology involves showing my BPD a recording of herself and seeing the light turn on.  I wonder what the response would be to that.  Every time I hear about a video that has gone "viral" because of the extreme behavior caught on tape, I think to myself, "oes that person have BPD?"  Will this unfortunate consequence of technology, that everything you do and say can be recorded, shed some light on this disorder?

[zachira]

Interesting question. Those of us who have dealt with family member with BPD, often wish there were some way for the person with BPD to acquire some awareness of how their behaviors affect others, and themselves. I don't think technology can make much difference in that regard. Look at all the reality shows, talk shows, and how terrible some of these people behave. Some people just are the way they are, and are unlikely to change because the pain of facing themselves would be too great, at least for now.
Keep asking the good questions and posting them here. We are an open minded group and always looking for new ways to understand BPD.

[Learning2Thrive]

... .Every time I hear about a video that has gone "viral" because of the extreme behavior caught on tape, I think to myself, "oes that person have BPD?"  Will this unfortunate consequence of technology, that everything you do and say can be recorded, shed some light on this disorder?

Good question! I too would like to see the light come on in my abusers’ heads. But if they were capable of truly understanding the gravity and depravity of their behaviors it might be too horrific for them to live with.

Yes, I think the viral videos are a definitely a draw to BPD and NPD folks. The chance at having an incredible audience for a dramatic scene would have to be like free drugs for an addict.

I don’t think very many of them care whether it’s positive or negative attention... .it’s just the massive amount of attention they crave.  There’s always a spin to justify the behavior, right?

It would be interesting to see some studies though. Thank you for posting this and asking the question!

  L2T

[Turkish]

With my mom's behaviors vis-vis the world I don't think it would have made a difference.  Any hint about how she was as a parent, she'd go Waif, "I did the best I could!" That was in response to me mentioning that I never liked the peanut butter and mayonnaise sandwiches she used to send in my school lunches.  That night she triangulated with my ex to leave and drive back home.  That told me a lot since they didn't like each other.  I vital my lip and convinced her to stay another night,  though it pissed me off to listen to her talk about me to my then not ex as if I weren't "in the room" standing right there. 

When she asked me decades later why I didn't tell the CPS social worker what was really going on when they caught up with us when I was 13 (,you mom took me out of 8th grade for over 3 months) it confirmed to me that she felt some guilt.  At my age, then late 30s, I didn't feel it fruitful (to either of us) to tell her.  I had survived. I wasn't interested in revisiting 25 years past.

For me,  and I don't expect anyone here to feel the same,  an apology would feel empty.  My ex apologized to me after her marriage to the guy she left me for imploded spectacularly. It validated me for about 2 seconds.  Then it pissed me off more.  She still made it about her: "I should never have left you!" Crying. "If I knew now what I knew then I would have never left you." "I hope someday you can forgive me for all of my bad behaviors." (That one by text)

All about her and her feelings.  No acknowledgement of how she hurt me or the kids.  Maybe that is too much.  Maybe,  like my mother,  the Waifish apology ("rescue me" is all that can be expected,  if that.  Maybe, digging deep, I need to hang onto the hurt in order to justify my anger.

[LeneLu]

I never thought about it with the reality TV culture, but that is so true.  Do the producers understand BPD and screen people for it. And, I have never thought about the fact that any attention is good attention.  It doesn't matter how they are perceived, positively or negatively.  This does not bode well for some family events coming up.  I was thinking that others being there would keep her in check, but it doesn't matter.  She will cause a scene if she wants to, no matter whose event it ruins.

[Harri]

Leenlou, what family events are coming up?

I don't know... .if the fantasy apology comes after the childhood abuse and what happened even later, then I don't want an apology.  It would just make me angrier.  The damage would still be there.  An "i'm sorry" or even a "you are worth so much more than what you got" would not heal anything.  My only response would be (I hope at least) "You are damn right I was worth more".  I got an acknowledgement from my father that he knew my mother was ill.  It wasn't an apology, more of a plea for help but I used to wonder if he was aware she was 'crazy'... .and he was.  It hurt more to know that.  Still does actually. 

I only had one theme that ran through my fantasies as a kid:  a world of no parents, where the kids banded together and took care of each other and formed their own family.  And no, no one went all Lord of the Flies either.

[Pilpel]

Every time I hear about a video that has gone "viral" because of the extreme behavior caught on tape, I think to myself, "oes that person have BPD?"  Will this unfortunate consequence of technology, that everything you do and say can be recorded, shed some light on this disorder?

Kind of along the same lines... .I have often wondered how the NPD in my life would feel about having our email exchanges posted for other people to see.  And I have often thought of suggesting that, and saying that if she thinks she is 100% in the right and that I'm in the wrong, then she should not feel any shame about having our emails shared.  I'm not embarrassed of anything I've written, because I have tried to be gracious in all my responses to her.  And if she doesn't feel justified in what she writes in her emails, then maybe she should think twice about her motivations. 

[LeneLu]

Hi Harry,

It is a baby shower.  I am not even sure she will be there, but I am anxious just the same because it will be the first time I will have seen her in close to 18 months.  We have had written correspondence. Just like Pilpel, I am not ashamed of my letters to her because I focused on my observations, my feelings and what I needed from her (for her to find a different way of expressing her anger at me in the tone, words and rage that she typically uses). Her responses were personal attacks, brought other people into the mix ("and mom thinks", arguments from years ago about her feelings and blame ("You caused my shingles." I put it in writing for that very reason... .I guess you could call it evidence.  But, no one wants to get involved and haven't asked to see them.

[Harri]

Hi again.  Of course you are feeling anxious.  Given the past and the present state of affairs, it is expected that you will have some anxiety.   

You will have other people around you and plenty of stuff to focus on but if you want we can figure out things you can say.  Being prepared can relieve a lot of anxiety and preparing ahead of time allows you to practice saying things out loud so you voice doesn't shake and stuff like that.

Want to give it a try?

You can anticipate what she is likely to say or do based on past behavior... .so lets work on it.

[LeneLu]

That would be great.  I am actually more concerned with what she will say to me under her breath when no one else is in hearing distance.

This is the first time that anyone in the family has had this sort of NC with her over her behavior (it is usually resentfully ignored).  This is some serious extinction burst.  So, I honestly don't know if she will be over the top nice (for show, which is typically what she does) or because this is a new set of circumstances, a total disaster.

[Learning2Thrive]

I am actually more concerned with what she will say to me under her breath when no one else is in hearing distance.

Hmmm... .yes, that is difficult isn’t it? Kind of feels like being set up so she can point a finger at you as the problem?

I’m interested to read Harri’s thoughts and ideas. I will share that when I feel like I might be walking into a setup (BPD or not), I spend some time reviewing mindfulness and staying in wisemind as well as ending conflict.  These two resources help me tremendously:

https://bpdfamily.com/content/triggering-and-mindfulness-and-wise-mind
https://bpdfamily.com/content/ending-conflict

I find it helps to practice potential scenarios.  So, what do you think your mother may say under her breath to you?
 

  L2T

[Harri]

Hi Leenlou.  I am sorry I am late getting back to this. 

Okay, if she makes a scene that is on her.  Yes, it is sad and yes it can be frustrating to be around and, if it is 'your' event, it can cause a lot of resentment but that says nothing about you.  You know that right?

If she causes a scene with you, you simply say excuse me and walk away shaking your head slightly but otherwise looking calm like you are used to this (and you are used to it).  If she embarrasses herself, it is about her.  She my be your sister, but she is not you.  Again, you just sadly shake your head and gently refuse to discuss it with others.

Don't give her a chance to sit or stand near you.  I always pictured a clear bubble around me so the things my mother would say would bounce off and go back to her, reminding me, visually, about projection and how her words were about her not me, and I would say to myself this is about her not me or some like that to reinforce the message.  It worked great for me and eventually I was able to recognize projection and shield myself from the hurt of her words on my own.  Well, the words still hurt some but I was no longer devastated and I no longer feared her words.  She lost a lot of her power over me when i did that and rather than being this bigger than life thing that had power I came to see her as the weak sick person she was.

What do you think?  When is the shower?

[Learning2Thrive]

Hi Leenlou,

I really like what Harri says here:

Don't give her a chance to sit or stand near you.  I always pictured a clear bubble around me so the things my mother would say would bounce off and go back to her, reminding me, visually, about projection and how her words were about her not me, and I would say to myself this is about her not me or some like that to reinforce the message

It reminds me of the saying:

“I’m rubber. You’re glue. Whatever you say bounces off me and sticks to you.”

Having the visualization of the bubble is great!  I know it’s not easy, but I know you can do this. 

L2T

[LeneLu]

Harri, I do like your advice.  I will do my best, but they can be tenacious.  But what choice do I really have?

I guess there is part of me that believes that anyone that is there to witness will leave thinking, "Well Lenelu had it coming. I mean what kind of person accidentally shuts the lights out on someone... .what did she thing would happen?" My BPD has told so many stories about me, stories that I can't possible begin to defend myself against (it would take years), that there will just be a "she had it coming" reaction with a shrug.

[Learning2Thrive]

Harri, I do like your advice.  I will do my best, but they can be tenacious.  But what choice do I really have?

I guess there is part of me that believes that anyone that is there to witness will leave thinking, "Well Lenelu had it coming. I mean what kind of person accidentally shuts the lights out on someone... .what did she thing would happen?" My BPD has told so many stories about me, stories that I can't possible begin to defend myself against (it would take years), that there will just be a "she had it coming" reaction with a shrug.

  It’s so hurtful. You don’t deserve any of that treatment. None of us here deserve that.

The thing is, you don’t need to defend yourself. Remember, don’t JADE — don’t Justify Argue Defend Explain.

You know who you are. You are strong and loving and kind. Protect your heart with the same tender kindness you would offer to a 5y/o child if you witnessed them in the same situation.

Don’t give her any power over you anymore. Sending you gentle hugs and smiles.

L2T

[Harri]

Leenlou, they can be tenacious.  Let them.  You be tenacious about how you respond to whatever they may do. 

"Well Lenelu had it coming. I mean what kind of person accidentally shuts the lights out on someone... .what did she thing would happen?"

This is the voice of a liar.  People watching stuff like this, from the outside are usually not thinking about this sort of thing.  Most people just don't want to get involved and will look to the participants to end it.  If they see you not reacting emotionally but rather responding with a slight shake of your head or a sad smile while walking away and they will have nothing bad to think about you.  Say nothing to them even if they approach you and say something about what she did or said.  You just say "that's my sister" with a slight shake of your head or just shrug sadly. 

Remember: And, I have never thought about the fact that any attention is good attention.  This applies to observers too.  As L2T says, do not JADE, do not try to involve them by presenting or offering evidence against your sister.  Let her actions and words speak on their own.  Let yours speak for you.

Now, I forget what happened with the lights... .you said it was an accident.  I think you said it was long ago?  If she is repeating that incident that says a lot about her and nothing about you.

Bubble... .you need a clear bubble... .

[LeneLu]

Hello again Harri and L2T,

I read and re-read your advice before today's event and was prepared... .and, she wasn't there.  However, it was not in vain, because I did feel stronger than I expected. 

What is really interesting to me is that re-reading thru your advice again after the event, I can see how right you both are about how the responses you suggested are really the best way to deal with the situation.  Had she been there, I can see how I would have moved around to not be near her; how if she had said something, others would have been at best perplexed, at worst very uncomfortable. You really do have leave them to their own devices and let the chips fall where they may.

[Harri]

That is excellent LeneLu!  I am glad our words helped and know that this positive experience will carry over into the next and so on. 

You've got this.  Fear is a tricky guide isn't it?

 

[Woolspinner2000]

Nice job, LeneLu! 

You were ready, you challenged those old thought patterns, and you made some new neuron pathways!   Awesome!

Wools

[isilme]

I read "Fantasy thoughts" and my brain went to my most common play-themes as a kid, not so much a desire for resolution now.  I guess I just see a resolution, even a fantasy one, as more than a pipe-dream.  I admit I've had less than noble desires that the world could see my dad, and yes, my mom, for the man he was to those dependent on him, not as he represented himself to his peers ("Hey, are you so-and-so's kid?  What a great guy!")  I live in Dad's original hometown. 

My mom plays waif/victim very well, so I know I am likely spoken of badly as that poor woman's ungrateful daughter.  Being NC and several states away means at least a little insulation.

It made me think of my common play-fantasies which I think now are odd - I'd pretend whatever hero on TV or in a  movie was my dad or older brother as made sense in the story... .and I had no mom.  I was Peter Venkman's sister, Marty McFly's daughter from the future, Indiana Jones' long lost kid, etc.  Or I was Sara Crew, living in the attic as an orphaned drudge.  Not quite on the Op's original topic content, sorry.  It's just what came to mind when I read the topic header, realized my childhood orphan fantasies seem a bit strange.

[Pina colada]

I do think all of us have "fantasy thoughts".  I have read and am reading so much on BPD/NPD but even after that, I had to use my real life experiences to see it through.  I tried to have a relationship with my sister but it is impossible.  I can't have a relationship with a person that has "no boundaries" and "does not play by the rules" of life and respect.  Even now, my sister posts on another board and constantly trashes "mostly me" but other family members.  Poor sis, she is the "scapegoat" etc.  I decided many months ago to stop reading her cr*p but another family member does and will share some with me.  Sis writes about how happy she is perfect her life is, trashes me and is still attempting to stalk me on social media.  Idk and I don't care.  I am just living my life knowing I tried as hard as I could to maintain a relationship but learning it is virtually impossible to be in a relationship with a disordered individual like my sister.  Life improved once I figured this out and stopped wasting negative energy on a person that is morally incapable of being a good person to those around her.