Gender Role Shaming

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

I saw something in another thread a few days ago which reminded me of my experience.  I realize that bringing this up might result in JADE and co-rumination. So be it, but I'm interested in how people move past it and how it may have triggered latent feelings given past relationships or even FOO.

My ex used to question my masculinity. She said a few times,  "sometimes I feel like The Man in this relationship." I felt like responding,  "do you mean that I'm not an aggressive  like you?"

Despite my stature, riding a sport bike,  driving a fast car, lifting weights a little (at the time), boxing and training with firearms as a hobby,  I'm actually a meek guy.  No. Seriously 

I was raised by a single mother who was a feninist in the 70s and 80s. She was BPD (and PTSD and suffered from Depression and Anxiety I later found out) so I learned to tread carefully. I was trained to soothe women.  I remember that my mom's attempt to interest me in playing with dolls failed,  but hey,  she was progressive before it was really cool to be so.   

I also never had a male influence,  except for the hermit we lived with from when I was 14-17. At least I kind of learned how to fish and work on bikes. Came in handy when I replaced this or that on my ex's old car; no appreciation, I was just expected to do that. 

My ex comes from a Mexican family where gender roles are harshly defined.  I remember one of her aunts remarking amazedly when she saw me changing our son's diaper.  I never had a problem with things like that,  and my ex expected me to take on both roles.  Other than me feeling resentment about not being appreciated (perhaps that's another discussion), I felt resentment about being *shamed*.

I'm a little handy and willing to learn things,  but I never had a dad (nor my mom, and I know there are handy women,  like my first boss engineer) under which to mentor.  When I bought the house, my ex shamed me plenty because... .maybe I'm exaggerating a bit... .I didn't know how to do a remodel.  "A Mexican Man would know how to do xyz!" Shaming, which was funny (not in the "ha-ha" way) because she told me that she'd never marry a Mexican Man because she told me "they are all cheaters and beaters." She was the first with me and the second to her husband,  interestingly.

I'm a lab engineer and I fix things at work.  I've fixed my kids' toys. Including resoldering my son's RC car better than the overseas OEM. Fixed my ex's car. Fixed our washer rather than buying a new one.  Trouble-shot our HVAC unit and picked up a few simple fixes rather than paying a vendor... .none of this seemed good enough.

But at the end of the day,  while I could make improvements and learn more,  I think that it is good enough. And I'll never forget that I "manned up" and protected our children when she failed  (and I think that she knew this,  but I'll never throw that in her face).

So who cares what others think our accuse is of lacking? My mother tried to shame me 6 years ago implying that I hadn't made enough of myself. So did my ex when she was deep into a "get rich quick" MLM, trying to offer me financial advice  ("physician, heal thyself"). Whatever.  I'm one generation off The Reservation,  the son of an addict and alcoholic (who tragically killed herself in the stereotypical fashion for Native Americans), adopted to a single white mother with multiple mental illnesses and ended up living homeless and diet poor, yet I turned out ok, according to those whose opinions count, not my mother, and not my ex,  the two most significant women in my life (I wasn't old enough to remember my birth mother).

Even if we hit the jackpot, there will always be a critic  (think Ozymandias).

We should be comfortable with ourselves, not where we end up,  but where we choose to be. 

[Turkish]

I saw something in another thread a few days ago which reminded me of my experience.  I realize that bringing this up might result in JADE and co-rumination. So be it, but I'm interested in how people move past it and how it may have triggered latent feelings given past relationships or even FOO.

My ex used to question my masculinity. She said a few times,  "sometimes I feel like The Man in this relationship." I felt like responding,  "do you mean that I'm not an aggressive  like you?"

Despite my stature, riding a sport bike,  driving a fast car, lifting weights a little (at the time), boxing and training with firearms as a hobby,  I'm actually a meek guy.  No. Seriously 

I was raised by a single mother who was a feninist in the 70s and 80s. She was BPD (and PTSD and suffered from Depression and Anxiety I later found out) so I learned to tread carefully. I was trained to soothe women.  I remember that my mom's attempt to interest me in playing with dolls failed,  but hey,  she was progressive before it was really cool to be so.   

I also never had a male influence,  except for the hermit we lived with from when I was 14-17. At least I kind of learned how to fish and work on bikes. Came in handy when I replaced this or that on my ex's old car; no appreciation, I was just expected to do that. 

My ex comes from a Mexican family where gender roles are harshly defined.  I remember one of her aunts remarking amazedly when she saw me changing our son's diaper.  I never had a problem with things like that,  and my ex expected me to take on both roles.  Other than me feeling resentment about not being appreciated (perhaps that's another discussion), I felt resentment about being *shamed*.

I'm a little handy and willing to learn things,  but I never had a dad (nor my mom, and I know there are handy women,  like my first boss engineer) under which to mentor.  When I bought the house, my ex shamed me plenty because... .maybe I'm exaggerating a bit... .I didn't know how to do a remodel.  "A Mexican Man would know how to do xyz!" Shaming, which was funny (not in the "ha-ha" way) because she told me that she'd never marry a Mexican Man because she told me "they are all cheaters and beaters." She was the first with me and the second to her husband,  interestingly.

I'm a lab engineer and I fix things at work.  I've fixed my kids' toys. Including resoldering my son's RC car better than the overseas OEM. Fixed my ex's car. Fixed our washer rather than buying a new one.  Trouble-shot our HVAC unit and picked up a few simple fixes rather than paying a vendor... .none of this seemed good enough.

But at the end of the day,  while I could make improvements and learn more,  I think that it is good enough. And I'll never forget that I "manned up" and protected our children when she failed  (and I think that she knew this,  but I'll never throw that in her face).

So who cares what others think our accuse is of lacking? My mother tried to shame me 6 years ago implying that I hadn't made enough of myself. So did my ex when she was deep into a "get rich quick" MLM, trying to offer me financial advice  ("physician, heal thyself"). Whatever.  I'm one generation off The Reservation,  the son of an addict and alcoholic (who tragically killed herself in the stereotypical fashion for Native Americans), adopted to a single white mother with multiple mental illnesses and ended up living homeless and diet poor, yet I turned out ok, according to those whose opinions count, not my mother, and not my ex,  the two most significant women in my life (I wasn't old enough to remember my birth mother).

Even if we hit the jackpot, there will always be a critic  (think Ozymandias).

We should be comfortable with ourselves, not where we end up,  but where we choose to be. 

[CryWolf]

I think you turned out amazing  

As you know, and as we discussed before. My ex also did the "youre not man enough" thing with me too. Us being early 20's, i provided the best I could. And being broke college students I am pretty sure I did more than enough than others my age do for their girls. Yet what i did wasnt enough and my ex would go on tangents that if loved her i would be saving for her wedding ring... Like "yoo, chill im only 22 at the time. "

Growing up, my mother sometimes would question my masculinity and say things like boys shouldnt do this. i would even get called "homosexual", maybe it was a cultural thing. Im of persian descent, everything you do is judged. overtime i came to the point of not caring. Now I trim, groom, personal hygiene is a must, tweeze, etc. My mom became okay with it over time and we share facial scrubs .

I also was raised in a female household. grandma, female cousin, mother. grandfather was overseas working. this taught me to be more on the feminine side. I used to hate how emotional i would get, and cry so easily when my ex would belittle or devalue. I used to hate how "not a man" i was and how i couldnt hold my tears. I felt like a "girl" but now, I appreciate who I am. In high school, you were considered a man if you lost your virginity. You know how absurd this is?

I want to say there is nothing wrong with eating a box of oreos or a tub of ben and jerrys and watching "the notebook". Straight guys can do it too. You shouldnt be told what you are and arent. No one can judge your character of being a man. guys and girls shouldnt be told what they can and cant do or be held to a stigma imo.

I did a lot of self projecting but I think this topic resonates with us. Not sure why.

Also, I think if you wanna be a big boy, you should get that TYPE-R  JK JK but really you should get it.

[LightAfterTunnel]

Hey Turkish,

Gender role shaming was/is used by my BPDw. I’ve had those words used at me as well, I.e. “I feel like the man... .”. The one that used to get me angry was “I need a real man that ‘fill in the blank with whatever we’re on a tirade about’ “.

It hurts for sure... .especially if you’re not well centered in the moment of the lashing out.

So how do you move past it?

Well I think you said it in your post. Love who you are. Period. Love all your particulars, imperfections, and quirks. No one should demean who you are or tell you that you should be otherwise. A healthy partner will respect who you are and communicate anything pertinent to you with kindness, compassion, patience, and respect.

I moved past these gender role assaults by coming to love myself. And then her assaults just made me sad for her when they happened. All of a sudden I didn’t feel hurt by her words but felt her projection on to me of her deep lack of love for herself and lack of identity.

I think after I realized the above I moved past it all.

LAT

[BasementDweller]

I think you all turned out awesome, and I love this thread and that we are talking about this. I've never subscribed to the socially accepted gender roles, and in my experiences and observations - what Turkish's ex said about "beaters and cheaters" - this is a huge problem in communities and cultures with a lot of gender inequality, machismo, and traditional, strict gender roles. It leads to all manner of social ills, and usually - poverty and oppression. No good comes of this archaic thinking. It's not even sustainable in this modern economy. Men and women need to be equal, and both be allowed and encouraged to become educated and empowered, work, and contribute... .it's no coincidence that the countries that have the highest gender inequality typically have the highest poverty and crime levels. (As a general rule, at least.)

Socio-politics aside, pwBPD love to hit below the belt, and will say anything they can to belittle you and make you hurt - bad. Your ex was attacking your masculinity, because the knows what a painful insult that is to a man. There is absolutely nothing wrong with any of you - no matter how you choose to express yourself, or how skilled you are or are not at various tasks. Just being a good human is more than enough to be proud of who you are.

When my BPDex wanted to hurt me, he told me that I was "a horrible, cold, remorseless bitch with no feelings who should have been 'softer and kinder' to him - then we would have worked". In other words, it was all my fault for not being enough of a soft "angel of mercy". But... .that wouldn't have helped either. I tried. No matter how I expressed myself - he could find fault with it.

The gender role shaming is just another way for the BPD who is lashing out to make you feel as bad as possible. They will attack you with anything and everything they have in their arsenal. None of it holds any water, and it says more about our exes than it does about us.

[Insom]

Nice thread, Turkish.  Have you read/watched Brene Brown?  She's a sociologist with a focus on shame and vulnerability.  Here is a link to her TED talk, Listening to Shame.

Here's an excerpt:

I did not interview men for the first four years of my study. It wasn't until a man looked at me after a book signing, and said, "I love what say about shame, I'm curious why you didn't mention men." And I said, "I don't study men." And he said, "That's convenient."

16:50
(Laughter)

16:53
And I said, "Why?" And he said, "Because you say to reach out, tell our story, be vulnerable. But you see those books you just signed for my wife and my three daughters?" I said, "Yeah." "They'd rather me die on top of my white horse than watch me fall down. When we reach out and be vulnerable, we get the $%#@ beat out of us. And don't tell me it's from the guys and the coaches and the dads. Because the women in my life are harder on me than anyone else."

Anyway, I like her a lot and hope you enjoy, too.

How does it feel to get some of this off your chest?

[Turkish]

D6 is certainly a girl but she's also has a tomboy streak. Both kids are in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. They fight over who gets to cuddle daddy closest at bedtime.  It involves arm bars and leg locks. It drives me nuts while at the same time amuses me. 

As for gender roles, it angers me as well when men demean women by belittling them similarly.  Aren't we all human beings on the same planet earth? What's up with the black and white thinking?

CW, I've heard me ex tell our son "stop crying! You need to toughen up!" Her machisma culture, BD. 

When we're in church,  S8 hangs all over me,  not his mom (like hardly ever).  I really think that he feels I'm the safer parent and it kills me. 

My ex definitely like to hit below the belt,  shaming, because that was/is her FOO. And a pwBPD feels shame,  projecting it,  often,  in order not to cope with their own shame.

Sometimes I still miss her when thinking.  Only.  If.   

[heartandwhole]

Hi Turkish,

Interesting topic, and I think it takes courage to write about this subject. You are definitely not alone.

As someone who has often enough been addressed as "Sir," (usually by a person sitting down, without looking up at my face), I can relate on some level to what you wrote.

Once, a complete stranger struck up a conversation with me on a plane. He was a pretty big, athletic-type guy. At some point, he asked me if I ever wore my hair down (it was up), and I think he might have also asked me about wearing a skirt (I was wearing pants). I was shocked and thought, " Huh? What the heck difference does it make?" My next thought was, "Here's a guy who is not comfortable with his masculinity."

I'm no psychologist, and maybe I'm wrong, but that's what I felt at the time. Do you think that your ex may feel discomfort around her own femininity, and that's why she had to call it out in you?

I agree that we are all human beings on planet Earth. And that's enough to deal with for several lifetimes!

heartandwhole

[CryWolf]

Interesting point HeartandWhole.

My ex would call herself a “boy” at times because she was not happy about her breast cup size. Or her buttocks. Maybe this correlates.

[Turkish]

That guy on the plane sounds like he was hitting on you, but was being a jackalope.

My ex is feminine but is someone who isn't comfortable in her own skin. 

Parents are mirrors for their children.  My ex had lousy mirrors and her dad wasn't around much for over half her childhood.  He lived in the USA and sent money home. 

[Educated_Guess]

Honestly guys, as a woman who doesn't easily fit the stereotypes of what women should be in this society, I find it  crazy that a woman would complain about a man not fitting stereotypical gender roles.  I mean, women have had to struggle to get beyond the idea that we should all be little Donna Reed's, cleaning the house in our high heels and pearls and making sure dinner is on the table when the hubby gets home from work.  It really just blows my mind that a woman would put that same kind of judgement on someone else.

I also wonder if there wasn't some cultural or racial bias there too with your ex, Turkish.  Native Americans typically do not conform to the standards of Western/European culture (nor should you because Western culture is pretty  'ed up and the world would be a lot better off if we all walked the Red Road).  It seems like not only was she attempting to shame you by comparing you to a stereotype, but she chose a stereotype that doesn't really match the standards and values of your biological ancestry.  Her frequent judgments on what Mexican men would or would not do seem to indicate that she does judge men by the culture they come from.  What do you think?

[JNChell]

Thanks for bringing this up, Turkish. Great and important topic.

My ex used to question my masculinity. She said a few times,  "sometimes I feel like The Man in this relationship." I felt like responding,  "do you mean that I'm not an aggressive  Cursing - won't cause site restrictions at Starbucks (click to insert in post) like you?"

My last two relationships had this dynamic. My GF before S3’s mom punched me in the face twice. I was called a p :cursing:y for bringing it up. I got us into couples therapy eventually. This was after my parents died and I wasn’t dealing with day to day life very well. Our T eventually asked her how she felt about what I was going through. Her response was “I wish that he’d just get over it”. The T was stumped. I should’ve told her it was over at that point. Last I heard, she went back to school and is majoring in psychology.

I was raised by a single mother who was a feninist in the 70s and 80s.

When I was in contact with my bio mom, I saw that she was a feminist. I don’t mean to offend, and I’m talking about extremism here, not true feminism, but my mom was an extremist. Once I realized that I cut her out. NC.

My “smart phone” isn’t being very smart and it’s close to my bedtime.

You turned out to be a man’s man! All of that crap from your mom and your ex was nothing more than projection. I understand how it feels to be told those things. I was told to man up by the mother of my child while trying to shoulder a mountain of emotional abuse. I bought it at the time.

S3 shows up with painted fingernails and toe nails at times. I get the playfulness of that, but why not clean it off after the play is over?

Turkish, I’d like to repeat that you’re a man’s man. You know how you were treated. You know why as a leader on this site.

Ok, I think that gender equality begins in the household, not some social media outlet. My household is me, and S3 part time. All male. He’s becoming very interested in his boy parts and plays with it in my presence. I tell him that if he wants to do that that he needs to do that in his bedroom. He stops when I say that. Its pretty much a test at this point. I get that. He’s learning.

Anyway, masculinity has been under severe scrutiny. I’m talking about ceryfemales that have been in our lives, and the media world helps nothing.

[Turkish]

Her frequent judgments on what Mexican men would or would not do seem to indicate that she does judge men by the culture they come from.  What do you think?

Having grown up with the "cheating and beating" yet emigrating to the USA at 11, she embraced a liberal,  feminist mindset. I can understand that. 

I was expected to split the housework,  which I did,  but she did nothing about yard work except cutting the rose bushes all of twice in 3 years.  I don't think she suffered from PPD, per se, but I got up at 6am to take care of D1 and then S3. Entertained, changed diapers, fed them,  did laundry,  often serving my ex breakfast in bed (she slept in until 9)  because I thought it was cool and the right thing to do.  Waffles, eggs, French toast... .of course I grew to resent this.  My problem was that my anger validated me.  I'm not a chef,  but I liked to cook.  My ex told me when I first met her,  "I'm glad that you cook because I don't (won't)." Her mo cooks wonderful dishes from their home state in Mexico,  things you can't get in Mexican restaurants.  This was her rebelling against being like her mom, that relationship bordering upon emotional incest. 

With so much dysfunction, how would one navigate it to form an independent and healthy sense of self? I think that about my mother also who suffered much more.  I used to admire her for emancipating herself at 16 after being orphaned at 12 and fully at 14, verbally, physically, and sexually abused by her father.  Yet the past,  while providing context and explanation, is never an excuse for hurting others. 

JNChell,

I'm sorry that your gf assaulted you and shamed you like that.  No human being deserves to be treated so horribly. 

[CryWolf]

WOW Turkish...
My ex also plays a feminist only when it pertains to her.
I’m no way a cook either but love cooking and like experimenting. My ex used to sleep over and in our culture (Persian) you’re not really supposed to let girls sleep over if you’re not married. I’m staying with my grandparents and they put their principles behind and let her stay and sleep over. They accepted her. Anyway, I used to wake up early and make breakfast in bed. She would sleep in and I hated sleeping in. I’d wake up go get groceries like 7am, and plan what to make us.

Pancakes, hash browns, eggs, juice, toast, everything. I was doing this ar 21 years old. What 21 year old does that? Shoot, I’m a catch. Her loss.  She is an excellent cook but would never cooks. Her excuse was she cooked a lot for her ex and he didn’t appreciate it. She would cook if I had to ask her. =_= anyways I think she also probably rebelled cooking because it seems like her parents like to cook a lot. Not sure.

[LightAfterTunnel]

It’s interesting to read everyone’s stories on the gender role plays that go on within relationships of a male-non and female-pwPD traits. So much of what you all have written is near identical to my situation.

I think I subscribe to BasementDweller’s thoughts that much of these shamings have little basis more than our pwPD traits being excellent at knowing how and where to hit us.

Having experienced these shamings by someone who is a self proclaimed feminist always has fascinated me. I have always found it incredible how she could/can see the injustice that had/has been put on women and then at the same time be outwardly hostile and role engendering toward me and men in general.

LAT

[Caco Canepa]

Thanks for starting this thread! I found that my uBPDstb-xw would use very aggressive gender-shaming in order to hurt me and pull me back into arguments if it looked like I was about to disengage from an escalating situation. For some reason, it worked on me until I figured out what was going on.

Long before I knew about BPD, our couples therapist concentrated on teaching us how to handle disagreements, how to spot emotional "flooding" and triggering, and to learn how to cope with arguments and heated emotions by calling a "time-out", validating the other person, and walking away while making a plan to resume the conversation after we had calmed down.

In real-life practice, my wife never wanted to back down, and would hurl anything at me (words and sometimes objects) in order to pull me back into a cycle of JADE. The things that stuck were the gender-based insults, especially calling me (a male)  "you little b&*ch". It was amazing how that would pull me back into the fray. I learned from her three younger brothers, with whom she had extreme conflicts as kids and adults, that that was her MO with them as well — perhaps a survival reflex in order to keep dominance and not be outnumbered by them.

I'm a pretty laid-back, gentle sort, and consider myself a feminist, especially when it comes for opportunities for my 2yearold daughter. I think she mistook my meekness for weakness. And I did acquiesce and let her violate many boundaries with me ... .financial, name-calling, my right to take up space in my own home. When she started making fun of what I listened to as "f******ot music" it confirmed for me what a sad, toxic person she is.

She postures as a feminist when it is convenient, and professed herself a "Nasty Woman" back during the Women's March. I think she misunderstood the meaning of the phrase. Her nastiness is nothing to be proud of, and yet ... .she thinks it's the same thing as strength.

CC

[Turkish]

These stories make me cringe but I'm glad we're getting them out.  It goes beyond similar language you might use with your buddies (not sure if women engage in such banter,  probably, eh?)

CC, those are really brutal comments the mother of your child made to you.  I think the shaming makes some sense given that pwBPD feel core shame  (worthless and unlovable).

My ex is 1/4 Filipina and looks half Mexican half Filipina given her eyes and high cheek bones. She told me her dad once surmised that she wasn't his daughter. What a horrible thing to say to your little girl! It turns my stomach to think about saying anything like that to my kids,  or like what my mom told me a couple of times,  "sometimes I wish is never adopted you!"

The funny thing is that my ex's dad is half Filipino since his dad eloped with a Filipina immigrant in California back in the day.  Her family disowned her for falling in love with a Mexican man. He took her back to Mexico and she became Mexican,  and the Filipino roots stayed buried buried. She's about 90. She looks like she could be from either country. It became a joke that a couple of the grandkids looked Asian.  My ex dug deep to learn the history.  More shame. My son has the epicanthial folds on his eyes also.  I hear the terms "Chinito" (Chinaman) and "Chinita" thrown about where I live. Race shaming. My ex was often called a Chinita, and I heard it with my own ears at a fiesta once when some snot-nosed little brat called her that when she kicked their soccer ball back to them. I was so angry and wanted to go back and have a little chat with the kid, Wolf to child, but my ex said to let it go,  the pain and resignation evident in her voice.  

My kids are only 3/8 Caucasian  (I'm likely 1/4 or 1/2 Shoshone-Bannock). I hope to raise them beyond such damaging and shaming stupidity.  

[JNChell]

I hope to raise them beyond such damaging foolishness.

Turkish, you will. You’re a good parent.