Child’s therapist reporting her mom

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Looking for advice because I fear my child will face the the wrath of her mom.  My x wife has mental health issues that she has been getting help for over ten years.  I don’t know her official diagnosis but her behavior almost perfectly matches the definition of narcissistic and BPD.  I took my teenage daughter to a therapist because she was showing signs of depression.  It turned out she was was not depressed just has low self confidence.  I just got a call from her therapist who said she is reporting her mom the child protection services because my daughter did not feel safe driving with mom sometimes.  There’s a history of self medicating.

I now I will get much of the blame but I’m used to dealing with her.  My daughter never told me she was concerned about driving with her mom.  How do I prepare my daughter for the anger her mom will will be throwing at her?  She is very timid and shy and will blame herself. 

And if I’m asked by the state workers do I share what the kids have shared with me?  I promised my kids I never would tell their mom what they tell me and I never have. 

[Montana99]

Looking for advice because I fear my child will face the the wrath of her mom.  My x wife has mental health issues that she has been getting help for over ten years.  I don’t know her official diagnosis but her behavior almost perfectly matches the definition of narcissistic and BPD.  I took my teenage daughter to a therapist because she was showing signs of depression.  It turned out she was was not depressed just has low self confidence.  I just got a call from her therapist who said she is reporting her mom the child protection services because my daughter did not feel safe driving with mom sometimes.  There’s a history of self medicating.

I now I will get much of the blame but I’m used to dealing with her.  My daughter never told me she was concerned about driving with her mom.  How do I prepare my daughter for the anger her mom will will be throwing at her?  She is very timid and shy and will blame herself. 

And if I’m asked by the state workers do I share what the kids have shared with me?  I promised my kids I never would tell their mom what they tell me and I never have. 

[Turkish]

Could you tell us what kinds of things the kids have shared with you? What's been going on in the other home?

[Montana99]

I would love to give examples but her mom has found things I posted before on this web site and gave me hell.  I have no idea how she did it because I never told anyone about the site.  I have since changed my user name but I cannot put anything past her.  She is relentless when it comes to finding things out about me

[Turkish]

That's concerning. In our experience, people don't get found randomly, even though so many stories here sound the same.

In any case, what else did they tell you that you think maybe you should have reported? In my experience, it was the kids witnessing DV between mom (my ex) and her husband... .it was a wobbler whether or not the T was going to report it. Things like screaming and yelling, while concerning, I don't think warrant a call to CPS.

Drinking at home, say, isn't breaking the law. If you state it like you did below, that D never told you, then tell the truth. I'd tell the truth anyway, but at the same time be wary of over-sharing. CPS is on the side of the kids, from their perception, not the non-reported parent. CPS may not even talk to you, hard to say. Does your daughter know that the T is going to report? It might be good to get guidance from the T here on how to talk to your kids.

I promised my kids I never would tell their mom what they tell me and I never have.

You can still keep this promise.

The validation tools here can work with your kids as well, validating her fears while assuring here that this isn't her fault. She deserves to be safe.

[isharcanis]

And if I’m asked by the state workers do I share what the kids have shared with me?  I promised my kids I never would tell their mom what they tell me and I never have. 

I'm a therapist and I have given them the promise that I won't tell anything that I'm not required to report

[Montana99]

I want to thank everyone for replying.  It really does help.  My daughter told her therapist she doesn’t feel safe driving with her mom sometimes.  She has never told me that.  However she has hit cars twice backing out of the driveway in the past six months.  And I now know of at least two occasions when she had to pull over to throw up.  I only knew of one time and when I asked mom about it she said she was just put on a new medication and it was upsetting her stomach.  My kids said they have heard mom throwing up in her bathroom during the night and on one occasions the kids went to use the bathroom mom never cleaned it up. It was still there in the morning.

I plan on telling my child that our number one goal is to make sure she’s never in a situation where she’s not safe. And we aren’t trying to punish mom but to get her help. 

[ForeverDad]

I plan on telling my child that our number one goal is to make sure she’s never in a situation where she’s not safe. And we aren’t trying to punish mom but to get her help.

While the system may try to get help for mom, it will try only so much before defaulting to its usual approach, deal with the person as he or she is, not as we hope they'd be.  That too is a practical approach for us.  In all the years with the ex, we couldn't fix the ex, right?  Maybe professionals can make progress since they're not in an emotionally close relationship.  (Typically the BPD ex, whether diagnosed or not, finds the emotional baggage from the past relationship too massive to overcome and actually listen to us.)

This may be where you take the conclusion of the CPS investigators and seek in court to address the problems, such as seeking more decision making authority and more time with the children to avoid such situations in the future.  Here's an example I give using alcoholism:

Most here have observed that the courts don't try to "fix" the disordered or misbehaving parent.  It seems they actively ignore our claims of diagnostic labels unless they're already in therapy or already diagnosed.*  So if she is already in therapy then the court may agree that it is best for her to remain in therapy.

In general, courts are very reluctant to "fix" a parent, they handle a person as he or she is.  I presume they haven't had much past success in ordering "fixes" and so don't even try.  They instead deal with the behaviors and behavior patterns, starting slowly and gradually, very gradually, tightening the loopholes.

As FF wrote, best to get the current therapy included in the temp order from the very start, it may be much, much harder to add it later.

* A diagnosis in itself doesn't mean much.  You would also need an evaluator to report to the court whether the diagnosis impacts the parent's parenting ability.  For example, someone may be diagnosed an alcoholic.  Is the person a dry alcoholic who has stopped getting drunk?  Or does the person drink but only when not parenting or retreat into his room when intoxicated?  Or does the person rage at the other parent and kids, even driving intoxicated with the kids?  Court and evaluators will mostly ignore or minimize the first two scenarios and view only the last one as 'actionable'.  Do you see why a diagnosis alone is only one factor when determining how much a person's parenting is impacted?

[livednlearned]

How do I prepare my daughter for the anger her mom will will be throwing at her?  She is very timid and shy and will blame herself.

I would tell her you admire her for speaking up. That it had to be scary, not just about the car (if you can tell her you know), but about how mom responds when her behaviors are exposed.

Then ask what you can do to support her. You are limited in what you can do, and wish you could do more. It hurts to see her in pain like this and the most important thing is that she's safe.

Something like that.

And if I’m asked by the state workers do I share what the kids have shared with me?  I promised my kids I never would tell their mom what they tell me and I never have.  

Maybe tell them exactly that.

Tell them you are between a rock and a hard place and need time to reflect on their request. You need time to understand how things work, how the kids will be impacted.

Sometimes it gets hard before it gets better. My ex asked our then S11 to borrow his baseball bat so he could beat me. S11 blurted this out to me one night, and I shared it with my lawyer, who described it in a motion. I was horrified that ex would discover S10 told me that, in confidence.

It went forward. In light of other evidence and patterns of behavior, it described in detail how emotionally unsafe it was for S11. There are usually so many things that move the needle for us when it comes to safety, but sometimes you have to shine light on what's really happening in order to get to safety.  

[ForeverDad]

And if I’m asked by the state workers do I share what the kids have shared with me?  I promised my kids I never would tell their mom what they tell me and I never have.

Maybe tell them exactly that.

Tell them you are between a rock and a hard place and need time to reflect on their request. You need time to understand how things work, how the kids will be impacted.

Another thought is that you wouldn't be telling their mom, you would be complying with professionals.  You could make sure they know your daughter's understandable concerns.  Besides, in this instance, they already know.

Very important is for someone, maybe the investigators and/or counselor if not you too, to emphasize she's not in trouble, rather she now has supportive people in her corner.  But if she is put under pressure, then they need to know.

[Montana99]

Well the state workers just left and I’m so proud of my kids (college and hs aged).  They were honest and got through it just fine.  I’m embarrassed to say I’m the only one who cried.  I learned today that my son found empty vodka bottles in her closet and that mom has lost over 20lbs. 

Now we will sit and wait for Chernobyl.  They are going to talk to mom tomorrow and we all know she’s going to go ballistic.  I just keep reminding the kids that none of this was done in anger. Everything was said because you care and are worried about her.  And it’s obvious that all these years of appeasement and hoping to avoid triggering her has not worked.  One of my daughters moved out over the summer and in with me because she got “tired of arguing andwalking on egg shells”.  All of them have self confidence issues.

[ForeverDad]

You're approaching a turning point and it may not be as bad as you fear, that is, long term.  Yes, short term may very well be "rough seas ahead" but this threshold event ought put an end to some of that "walking on eggshells".

Reminds me of my work environment in recent years.  We were transitioning three divisions into one, for efficiency, into the one using current technology.  We were #2, so I knew for a few years there was an axe hanging over our heads.  The #3 division was the one converted first and many of them were let go.  Then by Q3 2016 we finished our conversion.  One morning corporate came out and announced they were closing our 200 seat site during 2017.  He spoke for one minute and let HR take over.  Everyone met individually with HR.  My meeting was brief, she had good news and bad news.  Bad news, I was given 60 days notice.  Good news,  I could take the next 60 days off, since I was to pack my desk and leave.  (Seems HR has a policy that anyone who is given notice and has access to the entire building had better not be able to walk out with the servers' hard drives, passwords or whatever critical items.)  Other good news, in addition to severance I had 15+ years and so could 'retire' and keep my health insurance, a 75% discount.

Here's my point... .for years I had lived with the unwelcome prospect of being let go.  When I walked out of that meeting with HR, that weight of the unknown, now known, was gone.  I felt relieved, strange as that sounds.  In your case, you've been tiptoeing around the pink elephant in the room.  You may not have to tiptoe as much in the future, life may even get a little better once the short term chaos, even Extinction Bursts, burn out.  This could be your threshold event to change all your lives for the better.  That's my prediction.  Time will tell.
 

[livednlearned]

One of my daughters moved out over the summer and in with me because she got “tired of arguing andwalking on egg shells”.  All of them have self confidence issues.

Do they know their mom is BPD?

[Montana99]

I would say a little bit as needed to try and explain moms behavior and comments.  I want my kids to have a great relationship with their mom so I always struggled with telling them vs sabotaging.  However about six months ago I shared everything I know and what I suspected because it seemed to be getting worse.  They were all relieved to know and it was if a weight was lifted off of them.  Especially my youngest who would think she was to blame most of the time when mom would get mad.

Looking back I probably should have held mom more accountable. Myway of dealing with mom was to avoid the triggers as much as possible and then just ride it out when she flips out.  Arguing or reasoning with her was fruitless. 

The state workers are meeting with her today and then mom, my youngest, and myself are going to meet and we are going to talk about everything.  My youngest is 15 and she is scared to be alone with mom because mom may be really made at her.  My oldest is a full time student who commutes to college and he said he hates being there.  My other is a freshman at college and she hasn’t been back to moms since middle of July because she couldn’t take it anymore.

[livednlearned]

At 15, hopefully your daughter has a say in where she can stay.

Sending your kid to stay with the other parent when they are terrified is awful.

Maybe it's time to give them a book. Understanding the BPD Mother by Christine Lawson is one. There is another by Susan Forward called Mothers Who Cannot Love. I haven't read the latter one but it's apparently similar to Adult Child of Emotionally Immature Parents, with more of a focus on what it's like to grow up with that kind of person, and tips on how to handle things.

My son learned his father had a PD and looked a lot of stuff up online, and I'm not sure it was helpful, altho he has a therapist who has been helping him piece things together.

The hit to their confidence is rough.

[ForeverDad]

To a large extent everyone - the professionals, you and the children - should deal with What Is.  While you may hear someone suggest "mother promises to behave better in the future" the fact is that promises have no weight, only corrective actions do.  There is real risk mother may follow the rules but you have no idea how long before she reverts to prior patterns.

Real and lasting improvement is attained only one way... .with Denial set aside, focused therapy (such as DBT or similar) studiously applied to ex's life, thinking, perceptions and behaviors over the long term, probably for years.  If ex can do that then recovery can succeed.  Well, the other way is a strict parenting order with ex losing 'control'.

[Klera]

Hi Montanna99,

Now we will sit and wait for Chernobyl.  They are going to talk to mom tomorrow and we all know she’s going to go ballistic.  I just keep reminding the kids that none of this was done in anger. Everything was said because you care and are worried about her.  And it’s obvious that all these years of appeasement and hoping to avoid triggering her has not worked.  One of my daughters moved out over the summer and in with me because she got “tired of arguing andwalking on egg shells”.  All of them have self confidence issues.
[/quote]

My SD is also 15 so this tugs at my heart.   I'm very glad to hear that there is communication at least, that she felt she could speak to you and was honest and brave, despite all else, it's about safety.  That alone is such a victory in my opinion.   I understand and can relate to "Chernobyl" feeling, it's terrible but liberating to stand up and say, 'enough'.    Someone told me once here that kids 'vote with their feet eventually'.  It sounds as if your daughter has done exactly that and I wish her all the best living with you.    Just know that are others here that support each other and I hope everything goes well for you guys!