It's time to leave, but I can't yet

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Hi family,

This is my first time initiating a thread on this particular board.  I have primarily stayed in the Conflicted or Tolerating It board, but decided I really need to move over here and get more focused help with the process of detaching.  My T is helping me work towards taking that step to discuss with uBPDw that I want a divorce.  For now, I feel stuck because I have been trying to give uBPDw time to build financial and emotional stability.  She left her prior job in February and has been building her own business, and she has been in DBT therapy since the beginning of the year.  I am also butting up against her 40th birthday this month... .I just can't drop the bomb on her right at her birthday.

If my wife does indeed have BPD, it's on the higher functioning and more subtle end of the spectrum.  That's what has made it so hard for me to recognize and finally understand how much it has worn me down.  It's also what is causing me significant difficulty in accepting that my T believes here has been emotional abuse, and that I have been traumatized by this relationship (15 years together, 11 years married).

For anyone interested, here are some links to background details:

Introductory Post  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=321051.0
Co-parenting Struggles  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=321603.0
Empathy vs. Responsibility  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=322276.0
(Latest status) Treading Water  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=323773.0

So, now as we move through birthday month, I'm trying to get a handle on my plan for breaking the news that this just isn't working.  We have been in couples therapy, and she's actively trying to save the marriage.  In the very beginning, I hoped that might be possible as well, but it has just become more and more clear that it's no.
 But I have to keep up the couples therapy now because 1) we still need help just improving how we interact with each other, and 2) breaking that off now just accelerates the timeline for that godawful discussion that I know is coming.

In the background and at my T's encouragement, I have been setting a plan for when to tell her, what to do with the kids (D9 and S5) that night/weekend, and then... .I have no idea.  I will be consulting with an attorney before I tell her, though I am strongly hoping we can take the divorce through mediation and keep things as amicable as possible.  I'm not trying to take the kids away from her, and I want to split the finances fairly (even though my retirement account will take a serious hit and I'll be carrying a lot of debt as a result of her spending). 

I'm just growing increasingly anxious about the actual conversation itself, finally telling her openly that this just isn't going to work.  I plan to do it in a controlled environment (in couples therapy session, with a heads-up provided to the MC ahead of time)... .but I just "know" it's going to be ugly.  And so will the next several months after that--at the very least.  Consciously walking through that fire is a really daunting concept.

I'm stuck in limbo and pretty miserable.  Thanks for listening... .

mw

[mama-wolf]

Hi family,

This is my first time initiating a thread on this particular board.  I have primarily stayed in the Conflicted or Tolerating It board, but decided I really need to move over here and get more focused help with the process of detaching.  My T is helping me work towards taking that step to discuss with uBPDw that I want a divorce.  For now, I feel stuck because I have been trying to give uBPDw time to build financial and emotional stability.  She left her prior job in February and has been building her own business, and she has been in DBT therapy since the beginning of the year.  I am also butting up against her 40th birthday this month... .I just can't drop the bomb on her right at her birthday.

If my wife does indeed have BPD, it's on the higher functioning and more subtle end of the spectrum.  That's what has made it so hard for me to recognize and finally understand how much it has worn me down.  It's also what is causing me significant difficulty in accepting that my T believes here has been emotional abuse, and that I have been traumatized by this relationship (15 years together, 11 years married).

For anyone interested, here are some links to background details:

Introductory Post  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=321051.0
Co-parenting Struggles  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=321603.0
Empathy vs. Responsibility  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=322276.0
(Latest status) Treading Water  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=323773.0

So, now as we move through birthday month, I'm trying to get a handle on my plan for breaking the news that this just isn't working.  We have been in couples therapy, and she's actively trying to save the marriage.  In the very beginning, I hoped that might be possible as well, but it has just become more and more clear that it's no.
 But I have to keep up the couples therapy now because 1) we still need help just improving how we interact with each other, and 2) breaking that off now just accelerates the timeline for that godawful discussion that I know is coming.

In the background and at my T's encouragement, I have been setting a plan for when to tell her, what to do with the kids (D9 and S5) that night/weekend, and then... .I have no idea.  I will be consulting with an attorney before I tell her, though I am strongly hoping we can take the divorce through mediation and keep things as amicable as possible.  I'm not trying to take the kids away from her, and I want to split the finances fairly (even though my retirement account will take a serious hit and I'll be carrying a lot of debt as a result of her spending). 

I'm just growing increasingly anxious about the actual conversation itself, finally telling her openly that this just isn't going to work.  I plan to do it in a controlled environment (in couples therapy session, with a heads-up provided to the MC ahead of time)... .but I just "know" it's going to be ugly.  And so will the next several months after that--at the very least.  Consciously walking through that fire is a really daunting concept.

I'm stuck in limbo and pretty miserable.  Thanks for listening... .

mw

[pearlsw]

Hi mama-wolf,

I can't thank you enough for this post. Reading this makes me realize I am having some similar thoughts as you, minus the kid part of the equation.

After a rough day with my partner this week, when he yet again threatened a break up, I actually found myself making jokes with him where I practiced saying the words "I want a divorce." (He's never had to hear that, I've had to hear it countless dramatic believable times.) I can't think of what the small things he did were, and I knew and he knew, I was making a dumb joke, but I tell ya, on the inside it felt kinda good to say the words "I want a divorce!" even in jest. Though I admit I didn't look him directly in the face as the words came out. I liked how it sounded, strong and firm.

I am wondering if it might help if you could role-play this with a friend or stuffed animal or a tree for that matter? I think saying the words out loud, even getting used to feeling them in your mouth, hearing them in your ears, could help you get closer to this step if you choose to take it someday. Just a thought!

with compassion and gratitude for what you shared here, pearl.

[livednlearned]

Hi mama-wolf,

Thoughts of leaving can trigger a mountain of guilt. It's hard, I know.

It sounds like she's in DBT and working hard to repair the relationship, and even with incremental changes on her part, you are one foot and four toes out the door.

Sometimes the guilt is so intense that people wait for things to get worse so that a scene will deliver the final push. Others leave because the kids begin to show signs of serious distress.

If you are that close, it might be worthwhile reading Splitting by Bill Eddy if you haven't already. He also has a book I think is equally helpful called Don't Alienate the Kids: Raising Emotionally Resilient Kids When a Parent has BPD.

Divorce tends to create conflict on two levels. One is the battle for custody and the other is for the hearts and minds of the kids (parental alienation).

Eddy was a social worker before becoming a family law attorney, and is very familiar with the way BPD and courts mix.

It's possible that these two books will help you see a way forward before you even begin the conversation about ending the relationship. Sometimes learning how to manage the transition can buoy your spirits enough that you shed some of that guilt and focus instead of treating yourself like someone you really love 

What is your current plan for how you tell her and the kids?

[mama-wolf]

Thanks, pearl!  Yes, I definitely need to practice this discussion somehow.  I was planning to ask my T for help with what to even say (and not bother saying), but tomorrow's session with her will be full of a whole list of other things I need her help with first... .

I was confused when I realized my post had been moved off the Detaching board.  I realize I'll be going through the whole divorce process and dealing with co-parenting, etc. but the intent of my post was for the emotional support around detaching.  I guess the Detaching board is more for what comes later, after we have actually separated?  Help with the mechanics of separation, custody, family law etc. is of course also welcome.

And livednlearned, yes I ultimately think that whatever improvements we do make together they will fall short of what I need in a marriage.  And the impact I have seen on D9 over the past year or so has been a big push as well.  The guilt has been pretty suffocating though... .it would almost help if some major incident provided the final push, especially since there have been some improvements that make it even harder to stay the course.  But I know that letting that happen rather than managing it in a more controlled manner would really be more damaging in the long run.  Thank you so much for the reading recommendations!  I will definitely look into those, though I need to find a way to do so without uBPDw knowing.

mw

[livednlearned]

The guilt has been pretty suffocating though... .it would almost help if some major incident provided the final push, especially since there have been some improvements that make it even harder to stay the course.  But I know that letting that happen rather than managing it in a more controlled manner would really be more damaging in the long run.

People with BPD are incredibly hypersensitive to how loved ones are feeling -- you may find that your wife detects those changes and, if she feels panicky, she may escalate/test the relationship. The one foot in, one foot out space is so hard.

One thing I heard Bill Eddy say in a webinar is that there are 3 types of high-conflict people (he describe a high-conflict person as someone who is a persuasive blamer, has a target of blame (you), recruits negative advocates, and has a personality disorder. People can have BPD and not be a high-conflict personality, but a high-conflict personality always has a PD. These are his categories to describe severity of high-conflict people (for the purpose of understanding them in a legal conflict):

*generally cooperative, not dangerous
*not cooperative, not dangerous
*not cooperative, not dangerous

If your wife is the first, you may be able to disentangle without things getting too high conflict. By dangerous, Eddy includes substance abuse, DV, a history of making false allegations. I believe he may include being suicidal? I can't remember if yes or no... .

Have you consulted with a lawyer yet? It might be wise to do so now, if you haven't already. This doesn't commit you to divorce, it simply gives you some working knowledge about how things work where you live. There are often some important points that can make a big difference in how expensive and or high conflict custody will be. You'll need to be the problem solver that protects both of you, since she may not be able to regulate herself enough to do what's best for her, using the court system to try and manage her emotions.

About the books -- do you have a separate Amazon account? Eddy's books are on Kindle if you feel safer reading things online.

[mama-wolf]

Have you consulted with a lawyer yet? It might be wise to do so now, if you haven't already.

Not yet, but this is very high on my to-do list, and I'm working on quietly setting up a consultation.  She is an attorney herself (at least she doesn't practice family law!) so I want to be very careful how I proceed.  I need to go over a partnership agreement we both signed years ago before same-sex marriage was legally recognized  (hoping it will serve as a kind of prenup), and I want to get a feel for my financial situation.  I very much want to buy out her interest in our house, and that will depend a bit on how our finances shake out.  I also need to know how hard I can press for any review of potential child support to be based on income potential rather than her current income, which is very low for her right now since she's building her business.  I am willing to help out financially at the outset, but I'm very concerned about being locked for years into paying her an amount that will very likely become very unfair to me within the next year or so.

About the books -- do you have a separate Amazon account? Eddy's books are on Kindle if you feel safer reading things online.

I do have a separate account, but there is a shared family computer on which I'm concerned she could mistakenly access my account in Amazon, and she occasionally uses my iPad to play music in the house.  For the most part, it may just be a matter of me needing to be very careful about logging out, etc.  I don't think she would go snooping, but am more concerned about recommendations popping up in the account based on browsing history or purchases.  I also need to be careful about purchases showing up in our budget, which is under heavy scrutiny--mostly by me because of her spending habits, but still something that may be noticed.  I might have my mom buy these for me and settle up with her later.

mw

[ForeverDad]

There is a truism mentioned here (well, many)... .There is no perfect time to disclose bad news.  You could wait and wait, endlessly, and still not reach that perfect time.  So do your preparation, get your consultations, document the problems with a private journal or log, get your ducks in a row so to speak.  That way when that surprise event jumps out you won't be caught off guard and totally unprepared.

Another point, when you were trying to salvage the relationship, yes, you shared much.  That's crucial for a relationship to prosper.  But when you shift gears and realize the relationship is ending then you re-prioritize and share only appropriate information, generally communications about parenting and such matters.  The reason is that if you share too much, especially your legal consultations and possible strategies then the other person could sabotage you, your strategies and your goals.  For the reason remember that you have a right to privacy and confidentiality.

[formflier]

  I don't think she would go snooping

It is critical that you keep all of your research completely private. 

I'm not very familiar with Apple... .so hopefully someone else can suggest ways to secure apple products.

What browser do you use?  I suggest chrome (I'm a gmail/android/google guy)... .

I use a chromebook.  Any time I step away ctrl  shift L  (and it's locked).

Furthermore... .anytime I access things that I want to be private... .I do ctrl shift N (incognito window).

If your Mom can keep your privacy, much better to flow things over there.  I'm an only child and have luckily had my parents help here and there with private things.

That you are considering separating from an attorney is a wrinkle I hadn't been aware of until know.  Make sure the attorney's you interview know this upfront.

FF

[livednlearned]

She is an attorney herself (at least she doesn't practice family law!) so I want to be very careful how I proceed.

Oof. I understand. My ex was a former trial attorney.

You may find this article about taking an assertive approach helpful. It's an article written by lawyers, for lawyers, about dealing with high-conflict people in court. This will help you identify attorneys who will help you be assertive, without being aggressive.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=270440.msg12566140#msg12566140

I also need to know how hard I can press for any review of potential child support to be based on income potential rather than her current income, which is very low for her right now since she's building her business.

Good point   Ask your L about imputed income.

I don't think she would go snooping

You're being wise and careful. Emotional dysregulation and impulsivity can create unsafe situations for her, and for you.

I created a full-blown safety plan, with a pre-paid phone (for my lawyer only), a storage locker for important documents and anything that had nostalgic value (these are things that tend to go missing or get destroyed), had a credit card in my name only, a separate bank account, a recording device. I had a separate computer at work and was very disciplined about what I did where.

When you abandon someone who has a fear of abandonment and extreme affect instability, it can be intense. I found it was important to protect my ex from himself, as much as protect myself, if that makes sense. He did a lot of things driven by abandonment rage and suffering that hurt himself, even though his target was me. The more prepared and careful I was, the less harm he could do to himself.

How are you feeling about timing your exit? If you don't have anything particularly strategic about when to leave, your L may have some insights into when, especially if there are things to do in preparation that strengthen your case.

[mama-wolf]

Thank you ForeverDad... .very good points.  The timing point is one that my T has talked to me about.  She says no matter when I do move forward, uBPDw will probably think/try to tell me that I ruined her life.  So, I do know that I won't be waiting very much longer... .only until I feel comfortable with my preparations.  And sharing at this point... .it's very much need-to-know, or at most carefully sharing what's necessary not to raise red flags for uBPDw.  That can be tricky given the hypersensitivity... .what a way to live.

And FF, absolutely on all fronts... .I am being very careful, which makes things even harder in some ways (definitely more exhausting).  I use Chrome on the family computer at home (we have our own logins) and when doing personal browsing on my work laptop.  On my iPad, I use Safari.  I have taken to keeping that with me more often than not, but I need to be better about closing tabs when I'm done, just in case.

My mom is extremely supportive, so I probably will get the recommended books through her.  She also has a good friend from high school who is a well-established family law attorney in the area, and she is going to get me his information to set up a consultation.

Oof. I understand. My ex was a former trial attorney.

Yes, uBPDw practices mainly in the trusts and estates area, but she has been getting more into fiduciary litigation.  It's going to be interesting.  Thank you so much for the article reference... .I will be sure to read it!

How are you feeling about timing your exit? If you don't have anything particularly strategic about when to leave, your L may have some insights into when, especially if there are things to do in preparation that strengthen your case.

It will likely happen in June, but we will have to see how the next couple of weeks go.  I'm struggling a bit emotionally (mostly grappling with my T's recent observations about me being traumatized).  Good thing I have another session with her in about an hour!  I'll be getting the legal consultation set up ASAP, and we'll see what comes of that.  I feel like it's a waiting game to get me past Mother's Day and uBPDw's birthday.  Ultimately, I will try to listen to the professionals who are looking out for my best interests (mentally/emotionally and legally) to advise me... .

mw

[mama-wolf]

Well, my T has encouraged me in session yesterday to start making more specific, detailed plans for my exit.   I am really suffering from the effects of not being able to be fully open with uBPDw about where I am emotionally, feeling like an impostor both at home and in couples therapy.  My T supports my attempts to hold off and enable more stability to build, but at the same time she is concerned about the toll it has taken and continues to take on me (I'll make a different post about my emotional state--would rather keep this one focused on the plan).

So, I have asked my mom to get the books recommended earlier in this thread, and am hoping to at least leave a message for the attorney this afternoon to get an appointment scheduled.  Based on my discussion with my T, I think the longest I can hold out is Friday, May 25th. Given these facts, I have sketched out the following.  I will of course look over any recommendations made in support materials (such as the Splitting book), but thought I would ask for some help here with fleshing this out more:

Before 5/25:

• Meet with L to discuss current status, options, etc.
• Secure important documents, possessions, etc. (not a lot of concern that she will damage anything of mine, but will still give it some thought)
• Contact D9's T and update her on the decision--get advice on when/how to tell the kids
• Contact MC the Monday prior to session and update her about my decision
• Arrange for the kids to stay with my mom for at least the first night (she already has a heads-up but not specific timing)
• Arrange for me to stay... .somewhere... .that first night (it would be tight at my mom's and me staying there would cause the kids to ask questions)

Immediately or soon after 5/25:

• (Recommended by my T) Offer to contact someone for uBPDw and ask them to come support her
• Contact uBPDw's T to update them on relationship status and potential impact on uBPDw
• Somehow figure out how uBPDw and I will tell the kids
• Open separate bank account in my name only
• Initiate qualification process to determine if I can buy out uBPDw's interest in the house and take over the mortgage

I know there will be a lot of logistical things I have to take care of beyond those first few days.  Thoughts about those are helpful as well, but I mostly need to get through this month first.  I am very much hoping we can go through mediation to manage this split... .we'll see.

mw

[ForeverDad]

Why wouldn't you open a separate bank account sooner?  I'm thinking that her first reaction, once informed, will be to drain any bank account she can access.  You may not have time to open a separate account and move half to it before she gets to it.  Or is there not that much money in the accounts for you to worry about?

Same goes for credit accounts.  If she is an account holder to some cards, okay for her to cancel your cards.  Similarly, if you are an account holder to some cards, okay for you to cancel her cards.  Of course, if that would create any hardships then ponder how to be reasonable and yet not exposing yourself to additional debt.

The sticky issue is if you have joint credit accounts.  Some companies won't let you close an account until it is paid off.  You could suspend it but she might reactivate it.  You may lower the available credit and she may call in and raise it.  You could pay it down while she decides to go shopping.

The motto is Protect Yourself as much as you can without needlessly triggering her.  You will still be hit by some gotchas but it is good that you are thinking ahead to limit your exposure.

[livednlearned]

Hey mw,

Just want to send you a virtual hug as you go through this.

I know how hard this stuff is, and it does get better. It tends to feel worse before it gets better, and then it will be better and harder in a different way.

Taking care of ourselves, after an emotionally abusive relationship, is not for the faint of heart.

A thought on telling the kids -- be sure to ask them if they have any questions. Maybe you experienced a divorce as a kid and already know this... .for a lot of kids (according to my son's T) they aren't thinking about who will love them when there is a divorce, they are thinking about what happens to their toys, will they have two toothbrushes, will they take a new bus, and all kinds of other pragmatic things that we tend to overlook because for us, the most important piece is our enduring commitment to love them in spite of the split.
I wish I also said something like, "You might feel angry, and that's ok. You might feel sad, and you might feel guilty. However you feel is ok."

I also wish I stopped talking so much.  

And just let my little guy feel ok about feeling whatever he felt.

It might also be a good idea to tell the guidance counselor or family specialist at school. I met with my son's family specialist at school, then he came in so I could introduce her, and we let him know that if he ever felt the need to take a break, he could signal to the teacher, walk out the door, and come draw or put his head down in the family specialist's office. He did that in elementary school, and then in middle school. It might be something that helps your kids, too.

[mama-wolf]

Why wouldn't you open a separate bank account sooner? 
... .Or is there not that much money in the accounts for you to worry about?

Same goes for credit accounts.

ForeverDad--thanks so much for this!  I suppose I could open a new account sooner, but there really isn't all that much in there to start with.  I don't think there is a high risk that she'd try to take money, and don't want to trigger her if she were to find out too early that I opened it.

The credit card bit is a big one.  We have run up some debt while her income has been down.  That card is primarily in her name, but we had discussed rolling over to one of my cards using a 0% interest offer.  I need to discuss with the L about how that would shake out when settling finances.  There are several cards between us, but I think only one or two are fully joint accounts.  Pretty sure the rest just have one or the other of us on as an authorized user but I will definitely check all of them!

And livednlearned I have really appreciated your responses.  I'm so thankful for the support available on this board!  There is so much to think through with the kids... .thank you for pointing out to let them ask questions and to make sure they know it's ok to feel however they feel.

I have received referrals to three different attorneys and sent them a request for an appointment.  I figure I'm going to need to identify one I can work well with, I depending on if/how they charge for an initial meeting, I will likely meet with more than one.  I had minor heartburn upon submitting the contact request forms... .I just have this fear that somehow uBPDw will find out since she is also a practicing attorney in the area!  But I have to do something, or else I'll still be sitting here a month from now, still stuck in a really bad spot emotionally.

mw

[ForeverDad]

Stress to each attorney that this must remain confidential.  Same for the staff.  For example, a mistake could happen and a bill or some other document could be sent to your home.  Don't bring receipts to the home.  Pay with cash or some other way that wouldn't appear on any statements she might open or browse.  Same with phone calls or emails, only to accounts you know are secure from prying eyes.

[mama-wolf]

Consultation set up for this afternoon with one L, and I'm waiting to hear back from a second one who responded to my contact request.  My mom is loaning me the cash to pay for these consults, and I will be able to figure out how to pay her back later.  Also have to make sure I have cash to pay a parking meter, or find a timed space that doesn't require payment.

This really sucks.  I was already dealing with pretty persistent mild nausea for the past week or so, but it really spiked last night and is fairly constant this morning.  I just feel so sick.

[livednlearned]

Do you feel comfortable having your mom go with you?

It can be very emotional having these conversations with lawyers.

Our thoughts turn into words about actions with people who can make stuff happen, and like you say, it can make you feel sick.

Having someone go with you might help with note-taking, so that you can focus on taking care of yourself and asking questions, while someone keeps track of what was said and recommended.

[mama-wolf]

Sorry for the delayed reply... .I was pretty much a mess on Monday, and then tied up prepping and leaving for a business trip.

Do you feel comfortable having your mom go with you?

It can be very emotional having these conversations with lawyers.

Our thoughts turn into words about actions with people who can make stuff happen, and like you say, it can make you feel sick.

Having someone go with you might help with note-taking, so that you can focus on taking care of yourself and asking questions, while someone keeps track of what was said and recommended.

I would have been fine with having my mom come with me, but there just wasn't time.  I scheduled the appointments on pretty short notice since I was trying to get them completed before I left town for work.  I think it was ultimately fine as far as me identifying the right person to work with.  The minute I referred to DBT, the first L asked if uBPDw is borderline.  She referred to things that made me comfortable she knows what she would be dealing with, and talked through some potential strategy.  The second attorney made some good comments, but I didn't get a good sense of confidence coming from her and did not feel like she was a good fit.

So I have signed the client agreement with the first attorney and she said she would review my file today in order to provide some instruction to me on what financial details to pull together for her, etc.  The idea is to have a separation agreement drafted before I tell uBPDw that it's over so that a plan is at least sketched out.  uBPDw will probably try to fight over some of the details, at which point we'll head to mediation. 

I'm not trying to fight for more than 50-50 custody at this point.  I have to acknowledge the progress uBPDw has been making in DBT and I know that anything other than 50-50 will incite all-out war on her part.  I do question how well she'll handle things at the beginning, but I figure I will keep myself available to take the kids off her hands if she has trouble with grieving over the relationship and/or gets overwhelmed.

I set up appointments with my T once a week for the next two weeks leading up to when I tell uBPDw.  I usually go every other week, but felt the need to increase frequency due to the impact I have been feeling physically.  It is my hope that by making concrete plans with my L, and my T helping me stay grounded, I'll make it through the confrontation without breaking down myself.

[formflier]

I'm not trying to fight for more than 50-50 custody at this point.  I have to acknowledge the progress uBPDw has been making in DBT and I know that anything other than 50-50 will incite all-out war on her part.  I do question how well she'll handle things at the beginning, but I figure I will keep myself available to take the kids off her hands if she has trouble with grieving over the relationship and/or gets overwhelmed.
 

Perhaps you may want to ask for "temp" more than 50/50 pending her "completion" of her DBT.  I do think it important that you acknowledge he progress.  

I think it even more important to create an incentive for her to continue and "excel" at her DBT  and to have that incentive part of court documents and orders at the start, so it is a regular part of the review process.  "How is DBT/therapy going?"

I'm really glad your L seems to understand divorce with BPD.

FF

[ForeverDad]

We can understand you wanting to not "roust the bear" but be aware of your (our) typical fairness and peace qualities.  They're great qualities but not very helpful, even very unhelpful, when facing a tough case where conflict is a real risk.

That said, there is wisdom in trying to phrase things in the best possible terms.  FF had an excellent suggestion, requesting what you see as needed combined with improvements for her depending on her real progress in DBT therapy.

[mama-wolf]

I think it even more important to create an incentive for her to continue and "excel" at her DBT  and to have that incentive part of court documents and orders at the start, so it is a regular part of the review process.  "How is DBT/therapy going?"

Thank you FF and ForeverDad for the suggestion of providing an incentive to continue DBT and not being too accommodating for the sake of avoiding conflict.  I am currently reading Splitting and getting a better understanding of the need to assert certain things up front. I definitely worried that she'll drop DBT once things start to unravel... .I can very much see her deciding "what's the point?" and that would be very bad.

Knowing her, I think I will have the most success with keeping the subject separate from the question of custody.  I will discuss strategy with my L of course, but we did already talk about how to go about providing financial support to uBPDw for the year of our separation (since she'll need it given her currently low income), to include keeping her on my health insurance.  I might like to stipulate that the condition of staying on my health insurance be that she continue DBT, and I am even open to paying the copays.  This would reduce the liklihood that she'll dig her heels in just to spite me, which I know would happen if I tied it in any way to custody.  But I also know that if it's not part of a court order, it will be harder to enforce, so that is something I will need to talk through more with my L... .

mw

[livednlearned]

I also know that if it's not part of a court order, it will be harder to enforce

Courts don't really enforce orders unless you return to court, and even then it's a toss up whether court does anything. Instead, you may want to think about introducing conditions. Conditions work best when there are consequences for non-compliance.

If things get high-conflict and she stonewalls or obstructs a court order, you want a well-structured condition to kick in.

Ideally, the condition and consequence would allow you to act even if she refuses.

I had a good L and she didn't do this during the early stages. It's something I had to learn.

For example, maybe you want the kids to see a therapist. You would structure it so that you select three of the best child therapists you can find then allow your ex to pick the one that the kids see. If she does not select one by day/date, then you get to choose.

The consequence for non-compliance is that you get to choose.

When things are proactively structured this way, it allows you to move forward without having to go back to court.

Even when you have a court order saying the kids can get therapy, someone with BPD may stonewall or obstruct things so that your hands are tied and the kids suffer.

You want a court order describing what you're both supposed to do, and what will happen if x does not occur.

To take some of the sting out of any DBT condition, you could propose that you will seek out courses or programs for family members of a BPD loved one, to help you and the kids better understand how to support their mom with DBT skills. That puts DBT into the court order in a way that shines positive light on you, on DBT therapy, on the kids' emotional resilience going forward.

Putting conditions on both of you would be easier to digest and feel less shaming to her, if handled well.

Your L may not scrutinize the language in his or her orders as carefully as necessary for our cases, so be sure to look that stuff over before it goes forward. Even Ls who are familiar with PDs and high-conflict cases may leave lots of loopholes.

[ForeverDad]

Laws, court policies and company polices are always subject to change.

I believe that you cannot drop a spouse from your health insurance coverage during the divorce process.  However, once the divorce is complete and she is on your policy you probably have to notify your carrier and likely they will inform her that she has to get her own insurance or using COBRA can get extended coverage for up to 18 months but at a 102% rate.

Alimony tax handling may be changing but historically there is one major difference between Child Support and Alimony.  With CS the payer has the tax obligation, with Alimony the receiver has the tax obligation.  Viewed with tax consequences in mind and that the payer usually earns more than the receiver, alimony has the least impact between the parents.  The higher earner who probably is in a higher tax bracket avoids the taxes while the receiver earning less is probably in a lower tax bracket or doesn't even earn enough to pay tax on the alimony received.

Courts don't really enforce orders unless you return to court, and even then it's a toss up whether court does anything. Instead, you may want to think about introducing conditions. Conditions work best when there are consequences for non-compliance.

If things get high-conflict and she stonewalls or obstructs a court order, you want a well-structured condition to kick in.

To take some of the sting out of any DBT condition, you could propose that you will seek out courses or programs for family members of a BPD loved one, to help you and the kids better understand how to support their mom with DBT skills. That puts DBT into the court order in a way that shines positive light on you, on DBT therapy, on the kids' emotional resilience going forward.

Putting conditions on both of you would be easier to digest and feel less shaming to her, if handled well.

Your L may not scrutinize the language in his or her orders as carefully as necessary for our cases, so be sure to look that stuff over before it goes forward. Even Ls who are familiar with PDs and high-conflict cases may leave lots of loopholes.

"... .WILL leave lots of loopholes."  You know your stbEx much better than your lawyer does.  Still, she will sometimes surprise the both of you.  It's like squeezing a balloon, tighten your grip on one area and misbehaviors will very likely pop up somewhere else not as closely guarded.

[mama-wolf]

This board is really a lifesaver!

If things get high-conflict and she stonewalls or obstructs a court order, you want a well-structured condition to kick in.

Ideally, the condition and consequence would allow you to act even if she refuses.

Your L may not scrutinize the language in his or her orders as carefully as necessary for our cases, so be sure to look that stuff over before it goes forward. Even Ls who are familiar with PDs and high-conflict cases may leave lots of loopholes.

Yes the consequence approach was where I was headed with the agreement about keeping her on my health insurance.  ForeverDad, you make a good point about company policies.  I did have a conversation with my HR partner already who confirmed that if a separation agreement stipulated keeping the spouse on the insurance, they would do so, but that I could otherwise have her removed at the time of legal separation.

To take some of the sting out of any DBT condition, you could propose that you will seek out courses or programs for family members of a BPD loved one, to help you and the kids better understand how to support their mom with DBT skills. That puts DBT into the court order in a way that shines positive light on you, on DBT therapy, on the kids' emotional resilience going forward.

Since there hasn't been a formal diagnosis of BPD (that I'm aware of), I have to be careful about referencing that.  Both based on what I know about uBPDw and based on the strong recommendations from Splitting which indicates it could backfire in court (I haven't gotten to that chapter yet).  But your point is well taken about building in conditions on both of us in support of the kids' long-term emotional health.

Alimony tax handling may be changing but historically there is one major difference between Child Support and Alimony. 

ForeverDad, thank you for this... .my L did discuss this with me at a high level in the initial consultation, and I will absolutely look at the options more closely with her.  I had gone into the meeting feeling adamant about "no alimony" but she helped me see there can be some strategic reasons why we would structure things that way.

[ForeverDad]

I had heard references to a change in alimony, I've just looked it up.  Divorces after 2018 (I believe the key event is to "final decrees" or when the divorce is final) will be treated similar to child support where the payer also has the tax liability.  This is on Kiplinger:

Under the New Tax Law, Is My Alimony Tax-Free?

The new policy goes into effect in 2019. Older divorces can be modified to follow the new rules—if both parties agree.

For divorces after December 31, 2018, alimony payments are no longer deductible nor must the recipient declare the amount as taxable income.

Essentially, alimony and child support will have the same behaviors, the payer can't deduct it anymore starting with divorces completed next year.  This is a huge change to us here.  Our divorces often drain our financial resources and reserves.  Having the generally lower-income recipient pay the tax liability reduced what was due in taxes and so the loser was generally the government who got less tax or none.  I figure that's why that alimony perk is ending, the tax man wants his money.  Not to worry, those with alimony already in force are grandfathered in to the prior policy.

[formflier]

Knowing her, I think I will have the most success with keeping the subject separate from the question of custody.  I will discuss strategy with my L of course, 

Can you expand on this?  I would urge you to think this through very carefully... .I see   with separating the concept of treatment from custody.

If you start with it in temp orders, you build momentum and precedent to "keep it in the orders".  With "automatic" consequences" and with "automatic" benefits (incentives) built in. 

Let her choose and let her shoulder the consequences of her "parenting" choices

Look at in another way, these boards are full of people trying to convince a court to order or require treatment.  If you are going to make a mistake, make that mistake by leaning too far into treatment at the start... .vice trying to require it later or get your kid out of a bad situation.

FF

[ForeverDad]

Look at in another way, these boards are full of people trying to convince a court to order or require treatment.  If you are going to make a mistake, make that mistake by leaning too far into treatment at the start... .vice trying to require it later or get your kid out of a bad situation.

Most here have observed that the courts don't try to "fix" the disordered or misbehaving parent.  It seems they actively ignore our claims of diagnostic labels unless they're already in therapy or already diagnosed.*  So if she is already in therapy then the court may agree that it is best for her to remain in therapy.

In general, courts are very reluctant to "fix" a parent, they handle a person as he or she is.  I presume they haven't had much past success in ordering "fixes" and so don't even try.  They instead deal with the behaviors and behavior patterns, starting slowly and gradually, very gradually, tightening the loopholes.

As FF wrote, best to get the current therapy included in the temp order from the very start, it may be much, much harder to add it later.

* A diagnosis in itself doesn't mean much.  You would also need an evaluator to report to the court whether the diagnosis impacts the parent's parenting ability.  For example, someone may be diagnosed an alcoholic.  Is the person a dry alcoholic who has stopped getting drunk?  Or does the person drink but only when not parenting or retreat into his room when intoxicated?  Or does the person rage at the other parent and kids, even driving intoxicated with the kids?  Court and evaluators will mostly ignore or minimize the first two scenarios and view only the last one as 'actionable'.  Do you see why a diagnosis alone is only one factor when determining how much a person's parenting is impacted?

[formflier]

The interesting twist in this case is MW is able to accurately say in court filings that therapy has improved parenting. 

Offhand, I don't remember another case on the boards where that was true.   

I would think it would make it easier for this language to make it into the original temp order and then survive changes to the final order.

Going with FD's argument (which I agree with) that courts don't try to "fix" a parent, I would make sure the language around "improving" DBT and therapy outcomes focus on the impact for your child, versus the parent.

So, perhaps describe the specific behavior that is improved and how that impacted the child.  Further improvements will get xx more time to improve the relationship, perhaps under the supervision of the therapist. 

The "fact" that the behaviors were "bad" in the past is implied, the focus in the language is on improvements.

FF

[mama-wolf]

The interesting twist in this case is MW is able to accurately say in court filings that therapy has improved parenting. 

This dialogue is so helpful--thank you both!

The thing is, it's not so much DBT that has helped the parenting directly.  It has helped de-escalate the conflict between me and uBPDw, and in some ways I can tell it has helped her not lash out when the kids upset her.  But what has actually helped D9 (though not nearly as much as uBPDw would like) is that our MC had encouraged her to "disengage" from direct parenting of D9.  Not detach... .but basically not get sucked into arguing with D9, not directly disciplining her, etc.  Unfortunately, uBPDw has strugged with taking huge personal offense to this suggestion but she has specifically acknowledged at least twice that the dynamic with her and D9 has improved over the couple of months that this has been going on.

I get the point though about including something in the temp order so that it is not as hard to make sure it's there later.  Waiting to hear back from my L about next steps and specific strategy... .

mw

[formflier]

Does the therapist see it the way you see it MW?  I certainly understand your point, I struggle to think of a way to write that into an order.

My guess is (others please weight in) that it is best to broadly describe therapy and it's effects, vice getting into the weeds.  The goal would seem to be a temp order that leaves the therapist in charge and accountable for the accuracy of reports to the court.

So there is value in a simple attendance thing (is she showing up to sessions), yet I think it much more valuable to have  a therapist opine on "compliance" (likely we can find a better... .less triggering word for your stbex) with therapy.

Perhaps write some sort of structure into the order where there are parenting meetings, potentially guided by a T (could MC transition into this?)  The third party could be very helpful with a person with a PD to make sure the meetings stay on point, vice devolve into blame and circular arguments about non-parenting things.

FF