Sacrificing my happiness to avoid repeated conflict.

[CrispyTofu]

Back in April I learned about BPD from my therapist who recommended 'walking on eggshells' after talking with him about my recent experiences with my wife. At that time we were going to couples counseling as well. I made a intro post and a follow up back then about my 16 year marriage w kids.

Since then a number of things have happened and I thought its time to post my experiences on here and see if it echoes what others have gone through.

• Without mentioning BPD, our couples counselor recommended that she seek some individual counseling to help with the very basic emotional control things that were interrupting our couples sessions. She quickly demanded we stopped couples counseling because she saw no benefit. I continued individual therapy since then
• I've read walking on eggshells on my own and tried to get the wife and I to read 'high conflict couples' together in an attempt to try and get her to learn some DBT skills. That was uninteresting to her.
• I've awakened myself to how much I've been hurting myself in attempts to avoid conflict, and avoid her paranoia about me cheating or wanting to be with someone else.  Its intense how much anxiety I realized this gives me on a daily basis.
• I've realized I've cutoff many old friends of mine, including family members she considers problematic. I've avoided social interactions with friends and family just to not ruffle her feathers. I realize how worried I am about triggering her. Even being aware of it hasn't stopped this behavior.
• After trying several conversations under the guidance of my counselor I finally decided to bring up BPD. I had amassed quite a bit of articles on a pinterest board for her to take a look at. I wanted to see if she connected to anything on there. Now from her perspective all I want to do is 'label' her.
• It became clear there was nothing I could do on my own to help change her behavior short of something drastic. My therapist suggested concentrating on standing up for yourself and setting boundaries. I had a 'here are my boundaries' conversation where I listed my 'deal breakers', and at the first opportunity just ran right over those and told me to leave, divorce, etc... threaten suicide

So here we are, some 6 months after realizing that I've been living with a BPD wife. I continue trying to keep my house and home together for my 12 and 15 y/o daughters. Which usually means sacrificing my happiness to avoid repeated conflict. But at this point I have nothing in my arsenal besides separation / divorce to affect a change. She says to me quite frequently that I should leave.  She may mean it, but I won't really  know until I do it. And I'm quite afraid of doing it because I know I probably wont go back.

I am not happy with how things are, and I think previously I've been able to say that I stay  for my kids. (which I know is not a good reason to stick it out). I can now see the damage it does to them, and the damage a BPD mom has on their personal growth. I would hate to not be a buffer for my kids on the rough days.

Now I think a lot about opportunity cost. Is it worth living this way for another 7-8 years for my kids to get through high school. That is 7 or 8 years of not having a fulfilling healthy relationship.  My counselor tells me there isn't more that you can do or control short of removing yourself from the situation.  That too comes with its own cost financially and to my kids way of life.

This is where I'm at, and I'm having a hard time convincing myself to do anything. What I really want is for her to change. But I know that its not within my power to make that happen.

Thanks for listening.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Red5]

Hello CrispyTofu

She says to me quite frequently that I should leave.  She may mean it, but I won't really  know until I do it. And I'm quite afraid of doing it because I know I probably wont go back.

I am not happy with how things are, and I think previously I've been able to say that I stay  for my kids. (which I know is not a good reason to stick it out). I can now see the damage it does to them, and the damage a BPD mom has on their personal growth. I would hate to not be a buffer for my kids on the rough days.

It is good that you are gathering information, as knowledge is power, and "peace" of mind.

Can't allow ourselves to become lost in this.

I have this to share with you, it is my opinion that if the Non leaves, and departs the marital home, where an udx, or else dx BPD wife (spouse) lives with two of more teenagers, that it wont be long until the pw/BPD then targets the almost adult children (teenagers).

This is something to think about, not something to dismiss.

I hear a lot about "its going to damage me" if I stay, but one must weigh the decision to leave very carefully, as when the Non leaves, the teenage children are now defenseless.

Every situation/relationship is very different, but these are the facts as I understand them.

Keep learning, sounds like you are on the right track... .and yes, boundaries, and a well learning the "tools" to be able to cope with the day to day, sometimes hour to hour issues with living with a BPD wife/husband, or significant other is extremely challenging, and also exhausting.

Another point is that; the Non must be very careful about "telling", or attempting to get the pw/BPD to "realize" that they have a problem, most times this backfires quite spectacularly... .it did in my case, .so be careful there.

Take care of yourself, and keep your batteries charged, one day at a time, "steady as she goes".

Tough choices, by any measure!

Best wishes, Red5

[Panda39]

• It became clear there was nothing I could do on my own to help change her behavior short of something drastic. My therapist suggested concentrating on standing up for yourself and setting boundaries. I had a 'here are my boundaries' conversation where I listed my 'deal breakers', and at the first opportunity just ran right over those and told me to leave, divorce, etc... threaten suicide

Hi CrispyTofu,

There are having boundaries and there is also enforcing boundaries.  Telling your BPD wife you have boundaries is not going to work on it’s own. It’s having boundaries and it’s enforcing those boundaries.  You don’t even need to tell your wife what your boundaries are to have them and to enforce them.

Can you give us a couple examples of your boundaries and her reaction, then your reaction to her reaction?  (How many times can the Panda say "reaction"?   ) Maybe boundaries are something we can all work on together.  Boundaries are about our values, and protecting ourselves it isn’t about punishing any one. 

I often share this simple boundary analogy over on my home board, but thought it might help here too.  We’ve probably all seen this happen at the grocery store.

A little kid wants candy, mom thinks it’s bad for him (her value as a mom is to be sure he eats healthy food)

A little kid asks mom for candy, mom says no so the kid pouts.  Little kid asks mom again for some candy, mom says no so the kid whines.  Little kid asks mom again for some candy, mom says no this time kid has a full-on melt down screaming tantrum (Extinction Burst). What happens if mom gives in and gets the candy?  That little kid has just learned that having a screaming tantrum will get them what they want.  What happens if mom doesn't give in? The kid learns that no means no and he gives up. (It should also be added here that the little kid will likely ask for candy again the next time they go to the store... .the boundary will be tested every so often the key is consistency)

More from the site on Boundaries…

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=61684.0
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=167368.0

Panda39

[Iowa32]

Hello CrispyTofu -- I'm new here, so I probably won't offer much help, but your situation sounds awfully familiar.

As others have noted, I'm trying to focus on boundaries for my own sake. Happy to hear you have at least brought up BPD in conversation as I'm not sure how I will ever be able to pull that off.

Just joining the conversation 

[CrispyTofu]

Can you give us a couple examples of your boundaries and her reaction, then your reaction to her reaction?  (How many times can the Panda say "reaction"?   ) Maybe boundaries are something we can all work on together.  Boundaries are about our values, and protecting ourselves it isn’t about punishing any one. 

Sure thing. I worked on these with my therapist prior to the conversation with the wife.  3 things, and they had a central theme about respect.

• Respect for our relationship - this centered around not going back in time to pick the most grievous hurt (real or imagined) and bring it to the forefront every time she is triggered. Specifically I care about  a case where 2 years ago she convinced herself I was having an affair with a co-worker at my last job. It was a hellish scenario, from which I quit my job and moved just to get remove ourselves from the situation. 
• Respect for my job - I commonly get accused of 'choosing' work over family at the slightest thing. Not answering a text within 10 seconds, or ending a phone conversation because of work. Or coming home some 15 minutes later than usual. She also thinks every female at work is now a threat to her.
• Respect for my friendships - this is very big one for me. I have given up seeing  male friends that I have had for 20 years because she has painted them black.  One in particular if I have contact with him in any way she loses it. Its completely triggering for her.   

The conversation about those boundaries happened just last week.  A few days later  that same friend had invited myself and a few of his old friends to his house for the weekend to watch football as a pseudo house warming. It would be about a 3 hour drive. I'm thinking this is a perfect opportunity to practice these new boundaries and stand up for myself.  I told her that if one of my other close friends (who she is fine with) was going I would like to go as well, rather than just ignoring the invitation. Which is what I would have normally done.

She did not take that well. For the first day it simmered and I noticed her mood changed very negative when I got home from work.  It basically exploded into "you want to live a bachelor life , you're choosing him over me, I think we should split up, I want to die, I'm done with this, I hope you get killed on the drive up in a car accident... ." This lasted for a couple days.

I was not prepared to deal with this kind of tantrum over a visit with my friend. I decided it wasn't worth holding the line on the boundary this time so I told her I won't be going. I wanted things to swing as close to normal as my daughter's birthday is this coming week. But the last couple days she remains angry with me calling me bachelor husband at every opportunity. I explained to her that its not worth this kind of reaction from her and its not more important than us having a happy home. It seems the fact that I wanted to go is as bad as if I had went. Its a no win situation.

I realize I failed miserably at upholding my own boundary of letting me chose who my friends are. But to do so I have to be prepared for the escalation and be ready to walk away, which is where these inevitably lead. (as in leave the house, go sleep in a hotel etc for a couple of days).

A part of me is worried as well that she's really ok with me leaving and that I'm working so hard in vain to keep our relationship and home together.

[Learning2Thrive]

Hi CrispyTofu  

I’m so glad you found us. This board is a great place to brainstorm and discuss healthy boundaries, which are not to be confused as rules another person must follow or dealbreakers. Healthy boundaries are based on our values and we are responsible for enforcing them to keep ourselves safe. We don’t need to tell the other person, we simply follow our own boundary when a situation arises.

Let’s look at your first scenario:

... .
Respect for our relationship - this centered around not going back in time to pick the most grievous hurt (real or imagined) and bring it to the forefront every time she is triggered. Specifically I care about  a case where 2 years ago she convinced herself I was having an affair with a co-worker at my last job. It was a hellish scenario, from which I quit my job and moved just to get remove ourselves from the situation.  

Value: I want respect for our relationship.
Example Boundary: When my wife brings up old hurts, I will lovingly tell her, “I am sad to see you in so much pain. It must feel terrible to carry those old hurts. I love you and I want us to have a respectful and loving relationship.”

In this example you are validating your wife’s feelings using SET: Sympathy Empathy Truth.

If the rage continues, you continue adhering to your value.
Value: I want respect for our relationship.
Example Boundary: If my wife continues raging, I will calmly say, “Wife, I love you. I can see my presence is upsetting you and I want our home to be a peaceful, loving place for you. I’m going to take the kids for ice cream to give you some space. We’ll be back in about an hour.”

You can alter these in many ways, but do you see how the boundary is for you to enforce on yourself (not a rule for her to follow)?

The others may have more ideas. In the meantime, do you think you could try something like this? It takes time and practice but I have found it very effective in all sorts of situations, not just interactions with pwBPD.

 Hang in there, you can do this!

L2T

[Radcliff]

Panda39 asked a great question, and L2T followed up with a crucial point about boundaries.  To learn more about boundaries as we teach them, visit this page on setting boundaries.  The idea that boundaries define our behavior is a HUGE concept that can unlock success for you.  Because you control your behavior.  If you define successful boundary enforcement as you performing your predetermined protective behavior, then you can succeed every time. 

I have teenage daughters and a wife with outrageous BPD behaviors.  I feel for your situation.  You're carrying a heavy load, and have difficult choices.  If you're anything like me, reaching out for help is tough, and there's a big risk of being isolated.  The power of this board, I found out belatedly, comes to you when you become a regular here, and actively work through situations you're facing.  Only when you've started to master some of the tools here, will you be in a good position to size up things and make decisions.  The tools will also help you reduce conflict and set a good example for your daughters.

Do you see how L2T reworked your expression of the relationship boundary so that the protective action comes from your behavior, not an expectation that your wife will change hers?  Can you have a go at reworking your 2nd and 3rd boundaries in those terms?  We can help if you have a hard time with it, this way of thinking can feel counterintuitive, but I figured I'd throw the challenge out there.

Stick around.  We're glad you are here, and are fully behind your mission to make life as healthy as possible for your family, and are fully behind you as a dad.

RC

[sotiredofthis]

Something to think about:

I realize that being a buffer between BPD parent and children/teens is important. What about children/teens having BPD-free zone while living part or half time with non-BPD parent?

In my state fathers have a right to request half time custody and this is what my ex and I did.

[Panda39]

Hi CrispyTofu,

LearningToThrive, gave you some great examples of SET it's a good communication tool. It's about acknowledging your wife's feelings, it's not about acknoledging bad behaviors but more about acknowledging the feelings that might be causing the feelings, and still sharing your Truth.

Link to more on SET... .
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=143695.0

Thank you for sharing some examples with us. 

I wanted to point out that your wife is using what we call FOG (Fear, Obligation, Guilt) or emotional blackmail to get you to do what she wants. This is a very common tool used by folks with BPD, you are not alone in having this used on you.  I'm pointing it out so that you have more of an awareness of it.  Once you can recognize the FOG it can make it less effective.

Here is a link to more on FOG... .
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=82926.0

She used your fear of her making a scene or her making a scene and ruining your daughter's birthday party as a way to keep you from seeing your friend.

Maybe she makes a scene and maybe she doesn't but that is up to her, frankly she is going to do what she is going to do, no matter what you do or don't do (so you might as well do what you want to do... .go and see your friend!).  If she makes a scene at your daughters birthday party, that is on her, she acted out, she upsets your daughter, she looks bad in front of your daugher's friends/their parents, she did not control her own behaviors.  If she acts out, she will suffer the consequences of her actions. 

We can not control what another person feels, thinks, or does.  The only people we control is ourselves.  What you can control here is you and what you do.  You can learn better ways of communicating with your wife, interacting with your wife, understanding the dynamics behind her behaviors, start living your own life, and by your actions change the dysfunctional dance you have been doing with your wife.

You can't make her do something she doesn't want to do.  But you can change yourself, how you react, interact and when you do that as part of a couple your changes cause ripples that can change the relationship.  By changing yourself, you change the relationship, and indirectly those ripples (changes in you and how you interact in the relationship) can change her and how she reacts to you and various situations.

I often share this analogy on Boundaries and thought you might find it helpful.

We've all seen this at the grocery store... .

Mom's value: I want to take good care of my child and that includes eating good healthy food.
Mom's boundary: Sweets are to be had at special occasions only

A little kid asks mom for candy, mom says no so the kid pouts.  Little kid asks mom again for some candy, mom says no again so the kid whines.  Little kid asks mom again for some candy, mom says no for the third time, this time kid has a full on melt down screaming tantrum (what we call an Extinction Burst). What happens if mom gives in and gets the candy?  That little kid has just learned that having a screaming tantrum will get them what they want.  What happens if mom doesn't give in? The kid learns that no means no and he eventually gives up.

This does not mean however that the little kid won't ask again the next time mom and he go to the grocery store... .the kid will test the boundary again and so will the person with BPD in your life.  The key here is to always be consistent with your boundary.

So in the situation with you going to see your friend, you backed down and your wife learned if she threatens you with making a scene or upsetting your daughter, you can be controlled and you will do what she wants.

By setting a boundary that you will go and see your friends as you choose, you also need to enforce that boundary and go do it.  Yes, she will pout, and whine, and escalate up to the screaming tantrum, but to enforce your boundary you need to push through all that and go see your friends.  This may happen several times, things can get worse before they get better, but eventually she will figure out that no matter what she does, you will still do what you want to do.  Will she continue to complain when you go see your friends probably, will she test your boundary again most likely.  But when you want to see a friend go do it, you have every right to have your own life, and your own friends.   

In terms of work she's using FOG again Fear and Obligation.  She's your wife and your obligation is to her not your job.  You better answer every text every 10 seconds or your having an affair and you don't love her, and if you don't answer she will make a scene.

You could set another boundary here too.  Maybe you start stretching the response time out with a goal of responding only on your breaks and your lunch for example.  You don't need to discuss it with her or announce that you will only respond at 10a/noon/2p just start gradually moving your response times out.  Will she complain that you are a horrible cheating husband for not responding to her instantly, probably, but just keep doing what you are doing and eventually you will not be responding as frequently.

You don't have to take on all of these things at the same time, but gradually start taking them on.  You deserve your own life you are a separate person you are not an extension of your wife.

Panda39