Actions that feel toxic: How to interpret them?

[hotncold]

I recently saw old friends of my family's whom I have intentionally been avoiding due to their rather toxic vibes (one is my childhood best friemd who over the years I found to be arrogant and competitive and selfish and the other is his wife who acts like my bff at very inappropriate moments). This most recent episode was no different. He asked me invasive questions about conflict between my own family members and she asked me questions about something very personnal that I have never discussed with her and that I absolutely did not want to broach with her. This latest invasion sent me into a terrible mood after seeing them and I suspect my mother may have inadvertently said something to them. I have since discussed this episode with everyone in my own family to make sure they do not reveal anything personal about me to these people. Everyone agreed that these people can be very invasive and often broach topics in completely inapropriate ways. Here is my question: are these people intentionally toxic in their major breach of boundaries and trying to destabilize me OR are they trying to connect with me/remove the distance that I have established but simply don't have the social skills to do so? Or... .Is that simply what toxic people are: People lacking skill sets and boundaries (and motivation to acquire them) to establish respectful friendships and instead try to bond in very inappropriate ways. I honestly felt violated by the wife. I reacted well though and completely denied any knowledge of what she was saying which took all the wind out of her sails and the topic basically had to be dropped making her seem completely ill-informed about me at best. My approach was: what she is discussing is soo personal and since she did not hear it from me then I have no problem denying it. (and I don't care at all if she later finds out it's real. No love lost on that one because it is absolutely NONE of her business). The immediate and very satisfying effect was to shut her down and shut her out. Nevertheless the thought that she TRIED to go there enraged me afterwards. But I am wondering. Do I see more evil than actually exists? Was she trying to be my bff? I noticed throughout the night she was mimicking me and repeating words and gestures I was making which Is very annoying and makes we want to get even further from away from her. Is she just very weird? Did my actual bff from childhood choose SINGLE WHITE FEMALE as his wife? Luckily she doesn't know where I live.

[HappyChappy]

Hi Hotancold,

OK I can relate to this and I totally understand why you would get red flags, I would. My BPD & NPD would pummel you for information, I now realise this was to use against me and hence it’s a trigger. Probably a trigger for most on here. But never forget, a trigger doesn’t mean danger, just that we recognise a pattern of behavior. But as you rightly point out, they could just be being friendly or nosey which is harmless enought.
 
Here’s how I defend against that – if someone has empathy and or respect, then they’re probably not NPD or BPD, so probably just nosey or friendly. Never forget, only a small number of people are NPD/BPD and most of them aren’t necessarily out to get us when we meet them. So I'd apply your own rational and logic to this, e.g. what’s their motive for being harmful ?

I would also take exception to someone  not respecting boundaries, but I also know childhood trauma can make me over react to that, so maybe my boundaries are too high  ? I have some very level headed friends, who thankful didn’t have a dysfunctional upbringing, and they normally to the rational for me. They ask me Questions like “Why do you care” or “How much damage can they do ?” or “Do you want a relationship with them ? If not, why care, you may never see them again." I hope this helps. But from what you've written, it could be either, so we'd need to know more.

[once removed]

Or... .Is that simply what toxic people are: People lacking skill sets and boundaries (and motivation to acquire them) to establish respectful friendships and instead try to bond in very inappropriate ways.

i think for the most part, that is the case. people generally mean well, and sometimes the motivations we ascribe them are disproportionate and based on how we feel.

its hard to say whats going on in your case. you say one of these people is your childhood best friend. whats the history here? what makes you suspicious that theyre acting against you?

[hotncold]

Good questions all. So here is a bit of background. My childhood best friend is the son of my mother's best friend. I suspect she has strong NPD traits. His mother has never liked me. I suspect it's partially because my mother with BPD traits used to complain about what a terrible child I was (I was her scapegoat). So I think that my childhood friend grew into an adult son of an npd: he is arrogant, he is selfish, he is spoiled. I only realized this in my early thirties, when I became more attuned to "fake" friends and real friends and realized he never contacted me, never acted like a friend, but always seemed to be competing with me, or seemed jealous anytime I had any accomplishments in my life: told me i should be cheating on my boyfriend once, and insulted him behind his back, and seemed resentful when i had a successful career. The other indication that this is the dynamic playing out is that he recently saw one of my siblings and asked in a really disdainful way:  Is hotncold still hotncold? It's hard to interpret this, but my sibling said the tone of voice was full of scorn. If I were to interpret it, it sounds like the sort of narrative that my mother has always perpetuated about me (black sheep). I know this is really complex and I'm sorry to confuse you... .but is this BPD and NPD traits playing out across generations and families?

While I considered him a friend when growing up and we did have a special friendship, as an adult I realized the friendship was unhealthy, where I looked up to him and he looked down on me. When I didn't stay down he became scornful. So that's him. Why his wife would take on the same dynamic and be even more invasive and sniffing around for a jugular to bite down on seems especially sick. I do agree with the comment that this kind of thing would not bother healthy people, because at the end of the day these actions are powerless on their own. The fact that I was triggered is what gave them more power. Nevertheless once I shut these two down with my complete denial of any knowledge of what they were talking about, they retreated. My sister is not triggered by them so she doesn't see it at all. And they leave her alone for the most part. But she wasn't as close to this guy as I was as a child. What a sick web I have to untangle myself from. Hope I haven't confused you.

[Harri]

EDIT:  I wrote this before your most recent reply then got sidetracked by a delivery and decided to post anyway.

HappyC said:  

but I also know childhood trauma can make me over react to that, so maybe my boundaries are too high ?

Mine can be sometimes.  Also, sometimes it was/is my outer critic taking over.  We don't talk about that much here, rather focusing on the inner critic.  (info on the Outer Critic by Pete Walker)  I'm not sure if this applies here or not so take it or leave it.  

Once removed said:  

i think for the most part, that is the case. people generally mean well, and sometimes the motivations we ascribe them are disproportionate and based on how we feel.

I have to agree.  I think a lot of people are just clueless (I count myself as one ) and I think my childhood and even adult experiences have set me up to be suspicious and expect the worst motives.  sometimes my gut instinct is right and sometimes not.  I have gotten better at spotting things accurately as I have healed though I still need some work.  I try to assume people mean well regardless of how I may react to something.  That said, if they do things that bother me or trigger meI am going to take that as a sign that that particular person is not a good fit for me.  Before, mostly due to my outer critic, I would paint them as being disordered.  

As always, take what applies and disard the rest.  

[hotncold]

Harri said:
I think a lot of people are just clueless (I count myself as one Frustrated/Unfortunate (click to insert in post) ) and I think my childhood and even adult experiences have set me up to be suspicious and expect the worst motives. 

I agree that I sometimes see more bad intentions than actually exist. I even assigned my mother worse intentions sometimes, but other times i have underestimated her. So I suppose the reason we over estimate is because we sometimes underestimate. This is kind of the most difficult part of all. Understanding and seeing what is actually going on as it unfolds in front of us. But also my mother's worst behaviour may actually stem from a misinterpretation of other people's actions... .all it takes is one person to see something from the wrong angle and everything goes south.

They ask me Questions like “Why do you care” or “How much damage can they do ?” or “Do you want a relationship with them ? If not, why care, you may never see them again." I hope this helps. But from what you've written, it could be either, so we'd need to know more.

These are good questions to ask. Why do I care? Well I suppose it gets to the heart of the narrative that existed around me as a child: that I was a misfit. It also hurts because I had a special relationship with this boy. He was one of my first and closest friends. As a child I was very fond of him. That he would wish bad things for me makes me sad. Something I truly valued now feels very sick.
How much damage can they do? In this latest episode I discovered they can do zero damage. It was a learning experience. I reached out to my family and we are united and aware of how these people operate and that they often seem to try and create conflict. Before we were wise to them they did create conflict in my family. I think they have been disarmed. So no more damage. 
Finally, do you want a relationship with them? I think out of nostalgia for having experienced childhood friendship that lasted from birth until our twenties, it makes me sad that I cannot have a relationship with him, and that he is actually not a friend at all. I have seen him say mean and denigrating things about all his friends, now that I think about it. My mistake I guess was to think that he wouldn't do the same to me.
So none of the questions above care about intentions:
Should we care about people's intentions? I think a part of me wishes they were clueless, and not mean spirited. If they were clue-less then I could have more patience with them. What is interesting is that I have been working so hard to bring down my boundaries and have created really meaningful honest and truthful friendships recently and entering this toxic zone I think I was somewhat caught off guard. It's like I've really become more open and vulnerable and being in that state around toxic people makes for a seriously unpleasant moment.
Finally, what are your coping mechanisms when you do get triggered by this?  I reached out to family members and once I had spoken to all of them I felt much better. I still had to wait a whole sleepless night for that to happen.

[HappyChappy]

Why do I care? Well I suppose it gets to the heart of the narrative that existed around me as a child: that I was a misfit. It also hurts because I had a special relationship with this boy.

Is it the special relationship you miss, or the boy ? Do you just yearn to be connected in the same way again ? The theory states that humans don’t like change and do get nostalgic. But we children of BPD need to change, to become healthier. As we change we sometimes need to leave old relationships behind. We may get healthier and other stay dysfunctional. They say like attracts like, maybe the fact you guys don’t gel anymore is an indication one of you, or both of you have changed ? If his partner is manipulative, then maybe you’re the one that’s become more enlighted and healthier ? This is mostly conjecture, but does any of this fit ? In summary, it could well be a good thing you don’t gel anymore, and its not a criticism, just a fact of life that people change and move on. He’s probably jealous you’re hanging out with the cool crowd (i.e. BPDfmaily), because we're awesome.  

[hotncold]

happychappy I think you may have hit the nail on the head. When my old friend asked my sibling: is hotncold still hotncold the answer he got was: hotncold is doing great and is happier than ever. So when my old friend saw me one of the first things he said was in a not very nice way: your sibling said you were really happy. I responded it was absolutely true and throughout the evening when people asked me about things in my life I talked about them glowingly because there are truly wonderful things in my life now for which I am incredibly grateful. If he wants to be competitive I guess he has to now become a happy person. Ha! I think I doubted myself though because his wife is so fakey nice. Like dripping with fake friendship. I can't imagine someone's motivation for being like that so I thought maybe she was just awkward and had good motives. Examining my friends behaviour though it seems like something more insidious might be at work. Its also hard to convince others that its happening because a lot of people are duped by her "niceness". I never was. I just stay really far away from her. Hehe. Yay me. I guess I just have to feel sorry for him married to someone like that.