DD20 stole from me again

[Parents! Get help here!]

DD20 just confessed that she stole from me again. Not a lot- but that’s not the point. I am beyond angry. I didn’t do well at all. I blew my lid. I mean, shaking my fists, holding my head, whisper yelling, I made threats ... .I lost it.

This is the fourth time of DD stealing from us since the beginning of December.

We talked calmly to her the first three times. This time- not calmly at all.

I threatened to throw her out. (There’s this part of me that wants to do this out of my own anger.)
I told her she needs to apply to jobs and go in for interviews starting next.

I demanded that she write her aunt a letter by tonight, apologizing for stealing 200.00 from her aunt’s purse on Christmas.

I told her that her BF wasn’t allowed to come over at all until she get a job.

All of these are most likely not doable. Atleast not yet.
She is capable of writing the letter.

Getting a job-not ready yet.
And, by setting up these expectations or punishments, I am
Setting her up for failure. Yay me! Way to go, Mom! I hate what I just did. Big fat F for parenting.

Daisy123

[Daisy123]

DD20 just confessed that she stole from me again. Not a lot- but that’s not the point. I am beyond angry. I didn’t do well at all. I blew my lid. I mean, shaking my fists, holding my head, whisper yelling, I made threats ... .I lost it.

This is the fourth time of DD stealing from us since the beginning of December.

We talked calmly to her the first three times. This time- not calmly at all.

I threatened to throw her out. (There’s this part of me that wants to do this out of my own anger.)
I told her she needs to apply to jobs and go in for interviews starting next.

I demanded that she write her aunt a letter by tonight, apologizing for stealing 200.00 from her aunt’s purse on Christmas.

I told her that her BF wasn’t allowed to come over at all until she get a job.

All of these are most likely not doable. Atleast not yet.
She is capable of writing the letter.

Getting a job-not ready yet.
And, by setting up these expectations or punishments, I am
Setting her up for failure. Yay me! Way to go, Mom! I hate what I just did. Big fat F for parenting.

Daisy123

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Only Human]

I'm so sorry to hear this, Daisy, what a hard thing to deal with. I'd be angry too, it would be hard to contain myself. Please don't be so hard on yourself over losing it. Early on after I arrived here, someone told me, "We are pushed to the limits of normal parenting with our BPD children." I'm sure that's not a direct quote but that's what I remember. It's true - we are, after all, only human   

How did it come about that she confessed to stealing from you?

How are you all doing now?

~ OH

[Lollypop]

Hi there Daisy

I’m so sorry to hear about this. It feels such a violation doesn’t it. I declare that nobody, even a saint, wouldn’t feel at least irritated. A run of thefts is more than most could deal with. You know your feelings are perfectly warranted, and whilst not a text book response, your daughter now knows just how much you’re hurt by her actions. What are the other positives from this experience? You are learning is a big one. I feel for you I really do.

You know your money isn’t safe. So your going to have to watch it like a hawk and accept that while your daughter lives with you that’s your reality. I know what that feels like and it’s not nice, my husband was very resentful.

I didn’t put my efforts into setting limits or a boundary or even policing the situation or punishing. I know this may raise some eyebrows - it could be seen as validating the invalid. My son stole simply because he didn’t have money because 1. He wasn’t working 2. He couldn’t manage money. 3. Because he didn’t value money he had no respect for how hard it is to earn.

For me, the priority was for him to get a job and learn financial management skills. I thought I’d have to force him into a job somehow as a first step. This didn’t work. I was too involved. I was trying to change his situation (thus ours) when he should be trying to himself for himself. There I was with a physically fit young adult (24) perfectly capable of digging a hole, or cutting grass, or moving supermarket trolleys, he refused treatment, he resisted getting a job, and who wanted to be left alone. He went for an interview and behaved terribly so he didn’t get the job. My son was stuck. When I pushed, he got stressed and it was never ending cycle.

How to get them unstuck?

I thought my son was non-functioning. But he could problem solve couldn’t he? He planned his move to steal money from us. Even getting a tool to get notes out of small slot of a sealed jar that contained our holiday money when we were all out of the house. He could function when he needed to.

It sounds like you’re reeling right now. I know punishment didn’t  work for us. What did though,  was this:

Stability, free bed and board, one clear boundary (no drugs in the house although this hot conplicated later and not relevant to this post), no questions or talking about problems, no money given. He was depressed.  We kept money hidden. I’m going to repeat, we gave him no money, not for cigarettes, not for his phone, not one penny.

For once in my life, I had no expectation and I pushed those fears out of my mind. I set up a platform if you like. We were warm, loving and supportive and handed over his life and decisions to him. We watched, listened and waited. After about 3-4 weeks, He found himself one days work because he had no cigarettes or money for weed. I drove him there and back. That was our turning point.

Now this was us, not you. Your situation is unique to you. It does seem to me though that banning the boyfriend isn’t the answer but it may make you feel better though!  How will your daughter react? Will she be in the right frame of mind to look for work? I know the stealing is a big deal - if that’s your priority then run with it. This is one of many other phases in a long journey.

I got myself a 3 point plan and it helped me not sweat the small stuff (even theft). I saw my priority as getting him to work, learn to manage his money then leave us forever! Yay!

Why do you think she is not ready to get a job?
What incentive is there for her to get unstuck?

Hope you’re feeling a bit more balanced today. I used to call my house “the house of flying daggers” - he’d get me so mad!

LP

[Enabler]

Hey Daisy,

What's the plan for her paying all this money back?

No job makes things tricky, but I'm sure you need things done around the house right... .maybe you could do with some time putting your feet up whilst DD cooks diner for you all and cleans the toilets.

What's the going rate for house of reform school... .$5 / £5 / €5 an hour?

This isn't so much about punishment, it's about accountability and responsibility... .What I have done (letter), what I am going to do to rectify the situation ($200 + Massive bunch of flowers $30).

Enabler

[wendydarling]

Hi Daisy123

I'm so sorry, it sucks, you've every right to be angry and upset, as LP points out your DD knows the extent you're hurt by her actions, you'd set everything in place, letter, house chores... .

How to get them unstuck?

I think this Q is great LP, UNSTUCK. Daisy I keep the big picture in mind, the road map, end game. It helps me face, accept, rationalise my fears - wisemind. Our children are more capable than they demonstrate, as Enabler says it's about accountability and responsibility, we set the benchmark and LP's shared a great example how she steered her son, he too refused treatment.

What does the the road map look like now your DD's no longer in treatment?

Hugs, I hope you're having a better day and get time to decompress, self care this weekend  

WDx

[Daisy123]

  Wendy

I think this Q is great LP, UNSTUCK. Daisy I keep the big picture in mind, the road map, end game. It helps me face, accept, rationalise my fears - wisemind. Our children are more capable than they demonstrate, as Enabler says it's about accountability and responsibility, we set the benchmark and LP's shared a great example how she steered her son, he too refused treatment.

What does the the road map look like now your DD's no longer in treatment?

Thanks for responding and asking a really good question.
I need to come up with some sort of road map. After reading about LP’s experience with the 3 part plan as well as yours, Wendy, I think it’s time I get focused. I wonder if DD can help formulate this plan. She did tell me that now she’s off all meds, she’s trying to heal her brain by eating better, getting to her therapist regularly and exercising- something she’s not done in ages.


  Enabler

  This isn't so much about punishment, it's about accountability and responsibility... .What I have done (letter), what I am going to do to rectify the situation ($200 + Massive bunch of flowers $30).

I really like that question- what am I going to do to rectify this situation? She stole money from her Aunt over Christmas, she’s to write her a letter as per Aunty, and then Aunt will decide what to do. I told DD that she’s need to pay us back the monies we’d front her by cleaning the house.
I honestly feel like I’m setting us up for failure on this house cleaning money swap. Will DD follow through? It took her 5 months and the help of friends to get her room clean.
Thank you for this insight.


OH

How did it come about that she confessed to stealing from you?

How are you all doing now?

Thanks for the kind words, OH.

I asked DD over and over and she finally said “ We (meaning she and her BF) needed gas monies because the temps fell below zero and she was afraid his gasline would have frozen up. BF is still looking for work and I have good reason to think DD is funding the relationship based on her patterns of stealing from us since November. She’s gotten hold of my husband’s credit card that was in the safe and was making small purchases on it- slowly crept it up to about 400.00 in charges. Much of it spent on weed.

Oh OH, To be honest, that anger hung around me like a chain up till this morning. It lasted a lot longer than I thought it would. I’m just really struggling with not judging or stuffing my own feelings. I think the more honest I am with myself, the more grounded I am whendealing with DD. I just need to learn to not react when I’m all up in my feelings. So hopefully the next time one of her events pushes me over that edge- I’ll come here and vent or breathe through it till I am in a rational place. Then I will have that hard conversation.

LP

  I didn’t put my efforts into setting limits or a boundary or even policing the situation or punishing. I know this may raise some eyebrows - it could be seen as validating the invalid. My son stole simply because he didn’t have money because 1. He wasn’t working 2. He couldn’t manage money. 3. Because he didn’t value money he had no respect for how hard it is to earn.

Hello LP,
Each time I read your posts, I always learn from you. I really can see why you put off these things and focused on building a relationship. It’s so difficult to do with our loved ones because how the way they take this. I really do, as I’ve said to Wendy, need to come up with the big picture. What I am taking away from your story is to set my priorities straight and make sure my words and actions are in line with my priorities.

One priority I have is to get this family issues with Aunt as settled as it can be. Have DD face the music so family gatherings of sorts will continue to be something DD looks forward to- not something she’s got to avoid because of this theft.

I’d like her to build self confidence so that she’d get a job or go back to school to learn a trade or skill of some sort so she could move out. One thing at a time, right?

Daisy

[Enabler]

Hey daisy,

I’m trying to think what is the right path here on the aunt thing... .it’s done now so it’s purely academic mental gymnastics but here goes anyway as we can learn from this... .and when I say we I mean we as my kids are under 10... .

You subbed your D20 the money to pay back Aunt $200. Now your D’s liability rests with you rather than Aunt. I’m wondering if this is rescuing in a way. I can totally understand why you did it but I wonder whether or not it saves her in a way. Could you and should you have made D20 front it up to Aung herself and agree a repayment plan based on work you would pay her for. I know this is tricky as it’s a relative and Aunt wouldn’t have the money for a while longer, but it would be a more powerful message... .but on the flip side harder for her to mentally get over (you don’t want to make the steps too tough).

Having a lack of respect for you is one thing but maybe she still has some respect for her aunt (albeit not enough to not steal from her). She might conveniently forget about it now she knows her aunt is squared away.

Enabler

[GaGrl]

What do you envision the conversation between Aunt and DD20 looking and sounding like?

Will your DR admit the theft, ask forgiveness, then make monetary restitution? Will you be in attendance, or will this be between Aunt and DD?

[Daisy123]

Hi folks
Thanks, Enabler for your insights,

   Could you and should you have made D20 front it up to Aung herself and agree a repayment plan based on work you would pay her for. I know this is tricky as it’s a relative and Aunt wouldn’t have the money for a while longer, but it would be a more powerful message... .but on the flip side harder for her to mentally get over (you don’t want to make the steps too tough). 

Just to clarify - rather than front DD the monies she owes her Aunt- that she do the work around the house first, so she can earn the money?  If so, I love it. Yes, it’ll take longer for DD to return the money because she’d have to do the work first.

Gagrl
[/quote] What do you envision the conversation between Aunt and DD20 looking and sounding like?

Will your DR admit the theft, ask forgiveness, then make monetary restitution? Will you be in attendance, or will this be between Aunt and DD?  [/quote]

Those are great questions- I actually don’t know what to expect to happen in this conversation. Her Aunt is one very tough woman. DD has already admitted her guilt and wrote Aunt (per aunt’s request) explaining herself. I was hoping that when Aunt Dias it was okay to have a face to face with DD- is when I want DD to pay back the stolen cash. 

Now I’m nervous. I don’t think DD would go into a rage if Aunt shows anger. I was not planning on being there during the conversation. Thoughts?

Now my h is just so angry. Again-he want her to get out of our house. He has a right to his feelings. He complains about DD several times a day. I’ve usually tried validating his feelings, he went into it again about her today and I just went off saying he has so many issues- that he needs his own therapist. I am hitting my limit again. Ugh! I just don’t want to hear him accuse, complain, state that she’s got to go anymore. I feel like I should be able to be understanding, I don’t know if I’m being defensive here or what. I just don’t want to hear it anymore.

[Enabler]

Having a partner who doesn’t appreciate how much fuel they are dumping on emotional fires is infuriating and utterly frustrating. I can imagine (because I’ve been there) how it’s like fighting fires on 2 fronts.

You’ve clearly spoken to Aunt so you have some dialogue there. Could you have soft called her and in a manner triangulated her by telling her what had happened and why you need to butt out of your daughters mess and leave it between the aunt and D. Explain that you would be back stop for the money but you’d rather D not be aware of this and if possible work it through with her working for you to pay Aunt back (you would just be offering employment and pay Aunt directly). You have to crack a few eggs to make an omelette as they say.

Enabler

[wendydarling]

Hi Daisy123

Hoping the omelette is coming on nicely... . 

Thanks for responding and asking a really good question.
I need to come up with some sort of road map. After reading about LP’s experience with the 3 part plan as well as yours, Wendy, I think it’s time I get focused. I wonder if DD can help formulate this plan. She did tell me that now she’s off all meds, she’s trying to heal her brain by eating better, getting to her therapist regularly and exercising- something she’s not done in ages.

Let's talk about this, it's something many of us struggle with especially when we are right in the trenches and also when things change, as they do. I'll start off a new thread later tonight, where we can all brainstorm together, share our personal plan if we have one.

Catch you later.

WDx

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Lollypop]

Hi Daisy

What I am taking away from your story is to set my priorities straight.

The really important word is MY.

The next is PRIORITY

My priority was to have my son in my life and be free of my son’s problems.

It took me quite a period of time to understand this.

There were just so many problems. Co-dependency being one of them. Drug addiction. No job. No treatment. Grief. Anger. Contempt. Disconnection. Stealing. Secrets. Lies. Judgements. Not taking responsibility. Poor communication skills from both of us. My reactions, then his reactions to me. Depression. Anxiety. The list goes on and on.

It was one big whole mess.

Thankfully, I got practically positive and flexible.

The truth was I didn’t understand that his problems were his.
I was so busy focussing on his life, I forgot my own. What were my biggest problems?

For me, I had a failed relationship with my son. He was dependent on us financially (remembering he was 24)

I then started to problem solve to overcome my own problems. I got to work here. I bettered my communication skills so I could communicate more effectively. I nurtured our relationship. I cut the apron strings and stopped him being reliant on us for money.

I gave him a bed and free food so he wouldn’t starve. I gave him the space to work out his problems. Slowly, and I mean sssllloowwwllllyyyyy, he shifted from living hour by hour to day by day. He now lives week by week. It took him 3 years and he resisted all the way.

I can’t remember if I shared my priority plan. I don’t think I did because I didn’t want to stress him out any more than he already was. I did try to introduce a contract and that went badly so I withdrew that idea. I went with my gut, I stopped talking about problems and started listening and watching and demonstrating a way I wanted to live - a happier me.

I love WD’s suggestion of a new thread.

I’m going to re-think a plan for myself. If I’ve any advice is to really take your time to consider what your top problems and don’t have a timescale!

LP

[Daisy123]

Hi folks,
An update, DD completed the letter, but needs to send it to Aunt.
I am going to request that DD do work to earn the cash so that when Aunt and she have a face to face, DD hand it over to her.

Wendy and LP
I’m working on the big picture plan. And, part of the big picture- well-it keeps coming back to me. I’ve got to do better at not guilting, shaming or exploding. We, parents are pushed to the limits quite a bit by our loved ones’ behavior. So I’ve begun keeping track of my own triggers. I’ve made a list so I can atleast stop, not react and take some space. So DD asked for a new phone again! She asks repeatedly, wearing me down. I got snarky and said ‘money doesn’t grow on trees’ when I just should have acknowledged her desire to have a phone and reiterate the terms, get a job or back to school, then we would consider getting her a new phone. We originally paid for the phone so we’d have access to DD as she was so often suicidal.
We needed it for our own sanity- to check in and see if DD was okay.

 DD and H’s behavior can lead to trigger me. I’m afraid to say, I’ve gotten myself into some unhealthy communication habits. So I think I need to take care of me first. What triggers me- food issues, DD  complains a lot about what we don’t have in the house or what dinners have been made and she has no taste for what was made. That really gets me. I spend money on groceries, I take time to cook a meal and she’ll turn her nose up at that. I’ve got to let that go. Just writing about it I can feel my temper going south. DD completing any task like writing a letter, completing a chore- another trigger. The there’s getting to appts. A trigger- I never know if she’ll make it or not. Any commitment of any kind that she may have stresses me out.

She was supposed to apply for a job around the corner of our home. I sent her all the contacts she could use for references and she’s been home sick. I’m sad, frustrated and deeply disappointed. I’d rather be up in my feelings, feeling them than taking them out on her. Geez- the mistakes I continue to make. DD is sick, she has fever. I’m disappointed. So I’ll just wait for the disappointment to pass and let her be.

[Lollypop]

Hi

So I think I need to take care of me first. What triggers me- food issues, DD  complains a lot about what we don’t have in the house or what dinners have been made and she has no taste for what was made. That really gets me. I spend money on groceries, I take time to cook a meal and she’ll turn her nose up at that. I’ve got to let that go.

Food. Oh boy. I used to make such fantastic lunches for my boys, with treats etc, a friend said “this stops, they aren’t toddlers. You provide bread, things to make their own lunches, it’s their choice”.  Omg. That was an eye opener. She was right.

Eat it or leave it. This is a step we always should make I think,

Our job is to make them be able to look after themselves. Food is such an issue for me too. Son28 doesn’t eat enough, eats crap at his own place, isn’t interested in learning how to eat well,

I wish I knew the answer. I do know though that son28 didn’t appreciate the effort to put a meal on a plate until he lived out of my house and had the responsibility himself.

What can we say when they complain?  SET I think, I’m sorry you don’t like it,  I’m not that keen myself but it’s all that can be managed right now.” I need to toughen up.

Thoughts?

Hugs

LP

[Daisy123]

More follow up... .
I came home and said to DD
I just want to listen and be validating- can we talk. She blossomed and told me her experiences growing up in an ‘inconsistent’ household. She told me about the abuse she experienced because I was extremely strict and how reactive I was. Back handed compliments, comparing her to friends and the wrath of her father. I saw her life as a young child and then teenager from her perspective. It hurt and I don’t necessarily agree with everything she said occurred, but I listened. I nodded my head, I said that I could see how she’d feel so hurt. She said that we basically taught her to hate herself and that she was so frightened of me when growing up. Whew... .I asked her if it was upsetting for her to talk about it. DD said it felt good to get it off her chest.

I said that I wished things had gone much different with DD as a child, that I’d made mistakes being a helicopter parent and that I could see she’d felt very hurt by all of this.

 I repeated several times that she needed to share her experiences with her father. I suggested that they go and see DD’s therapist. I know my husband, whenever we came across a tough issue (as long as it was not about his childhood), he’d listen.
He’s mentioned and offered to go into therapy with DD in the past.
I’m afraid she’s split her father. I just hope he can listen as openly as I have.

I’m going to go lick my wounds and then figure out the rest of the big picture.

[Daisy123]

LP said

What can we say when they complain?  SET I think, I’m sorry you don’t like it,  I’m not that keen myself but it’s all that can be managed right now.” I need to toughen up. 

I think using SET for times like this one is such a good idea. I know her common complaints so I think I’ll write up some possible SET responses. Thanks, LP, now I know what my next step is, prepare to respond to triggering complaints with SET.

Daisy

[Enabler]

I just want to listen and be validating- can we talk. She blossomed and told me her experiences growing up in an ‘inconsistent’ household. She told me about the abuse she experienced because I was extremely strict and how reactive I was. Back handed compliments, comparing her to friends and the wrath of her father. I saw her life as a young child and then teenager from her perspective. It hurt and I don’t necessarily agree with everything she said occurred, but I listened. I nodded my head, I said that I could see how she’d feel so hurt. She said that we basically taught her to hate herself and that she was so frightened of me when growing up. Whew... .I asked her if it was upsetting for her to talk about it. DD said it felt good to get it off her chest.

I said that I wished things had gone much different with DD as a child, that I’d made mistakes being a helicopter parent and that I could see she’d felt very hurt by all of this.

This is brilliant, wonderful, awesome, fabulous... .IT TRULY IS 

YOUR DAUGHTER FEELS HEARD!

You may not agree with all of the facts and the details but THAT doesn't matter and it's kinda not for you to judge that. You both have different narratives about what motivated you to do what you did and how you experienced each other. Ultimately for her to get to a place where she might start to accept the motivations for how you bought her up, whilst accepting that neither YOU or HER are bad people and those motivations were with good intention, she may be able to see herself in a different light.

I have no doubts that this type of exchange took an enormous amount of courage for her, she made herself very vulnerable. I hope you were able to make yourself very vulnerable at the same time maybe by saying "I got it wrong"... .and not in a victim way, not one where you're trying to get "sorry for yourself" sympathy. This is a hand up, "What I tried to do didn't work" "I messed up" way. "What do we do now?". Make yourself accountable, whilst preserving the fact that she is growing into an adult and you can't do that for her.

I would be inclined to hold back on trying to rebuild the relationship with Dad just yet. Allow your own relationship to rebuild first and then your daughter may be in a position where she is able to understand where her father is coming from. Her finding a framework/container with which to put her father in may take time but she needs to contextualise you both and her upbringing in a way that works. Make no attempt to control the construct of this narrative... .showing is more powerful than telling.

Enabler

[wendydarling]

Daisy I do apologise, I've been away and fleetly here the weekend.

Wow Daisy, that's true getting unstuck, right in there, you shined the light.     GO YOU! I want to hug you woman, I'm feeling very emotional for you, you are so brave and courageous, you've worked so hard with your girl and continue to. As Enabler says your DD feels heard and you gifted her, it's the kindest thing to do, open up the space for honest conversations. You are right you do not have to agree with everything, your perspective, experience is your own. That she opened up to you, she trusts you with her feelings is huge, you've both something to work with, connecting. Please remember we don't know, till we do, and that takes some learning, child, partner, parent, sib, close friend, this is BPD and more than often co-morbid. I remember your first post Daisy and thought this lovely Mum is never giving up, she cares desperately for her DD and herself. That's me too, never giving up. And you've not, there is the other side of the story, yours. We are listening.  

No judgement here. Learning yes, healing.

Amazing you.

WDx

[Lollypop]

Hi Daisy

I’m dancing ... .

Progress feels so great. We work hard, things slot together in the briefest but most important moments. Working on that core relationship really works - a building block of trust under both your feet. You stand together.

Let us know how your SET preparations go!

LP