It's as difficult to manage when she's nice to me as when she isn't. FOG is real

[Notwendy]

Right now, I am painted white. BPD mom is calling me and texting me frequently. She is so super sweet and nice when she does. I feel uncomfortable maintaining boundaries when she does this. It feels so mean. She's elderly and alone, and I feel sorry for her that she has such a strained relationship with me and my children.

She wants what every person her age would want- children who care about them, who spend time with them, and a relationship with grandchildren. She doesn't connect this with her legacy of emotional abuse, lying and manipulation. I don't want to hold a grudge for her, but she acts as if all is well between us and she's a loving mother to me and that's not the whole picture.

I feel sorry for her. I am an empathetic person. I know she's elderly and alone and it a sad situation. It also feels like there is not way to resolve this with any sense of comfort on my part. On one hand, I keep boundaries and some distance and it feels cruel on my part. On the other hand, I completely give in to filling her emotional needs like my father did, and have no boundaries with her. She doesn't "get " middle ground- it's a constant push on her part when it comes to boundaries and she's really good at doing that.

This isn't what I wanted for an elderly mother. If it were possible, I would have helped move her near me and would include her in our family holidays and other aspects of our lives. But I know that to do this would bring conflict and drama.

I can handle it  better when she is dysregulated and verbally abusive. Then I don't feel bad having boundaries. But when she's being sweet ( and I know it's manipulative) it's much harder. Especially since she is elderly and it feels so cruel to not be attentive to an elderly parent.

I am not mean to her and I am nice when she calls- usually because she wants something from me but I also stay medium chill and don't share too much personal information. It's hard when she's being nice but I don't trust it is sincere.

[Woolspinner2000]

Hi Notwendy,

This is a tough place for you to be in, for any of us really. It is painful because we can see what will work and what won't work, but neither option is a reality for the pwBPD. How often I have wished for that middle ground you spoke of! The FOG is pretty awful, yet the price of the drama to go back and be pulled in is just as bad, sometimes worse. I'm so sorry for this place which seems to have no options. 

I think that what you are doing is caring for yourself in this situation. You have the freedom to put your needs first, but I know it feels so wrong. Totally agree with you that the dysregulation is easier to know how to handle than the sweetness! Is it possible for you to just let the sweetness be what it is and enjoy it without being sucked into it? I don't know that answer, it's just a thought I had. The sweetness seems to offer hope to a heart that would love to hope.

 
Wools

[Turkish]

Is it really consciously manipulative,  or just how she operates since she is unaware how hurtful she can be otherwise, given how she operates has "worked" for her in life?

[Notwendy]

Turkish - my best answer from observing how she interacts with me and others is that it is consciously manipulative. She has even admitted to me (about others ) that she “butters them up “ ( her words) to get what she wants. I’ve seen her turn on her “nice act” and it has worked for her.

I also think the other is partially true. When someone is painted white she forgets. When she’s dysregulated she’s in an altered state. Those episodes are actually easier for me to understand.

Manipulating me is harder for me to deal with because she’s skilled at it and has duped me many times. She also lies frequently to me so I don’t know if she’s telling the truth or not. This has been more destructive to a possible relationship than dysregulations. I know she can’t help those. The lying and manipulating is deliberate. But it’s still tough to be the recipient of her “butter up” because it’s not my nature to resist her needs.

[snowglobe]

Hi Wendy,
It’s a difficult balance you are trying to hold on to, and from what I gather from your posts you are feeling the obligation and guilt of your mother’s manipulation and old age. My situation is frighteningly similar with my own mother and mother in law. When my own mother is probably easier to deal with, because she is in a close proximity, my BPD mother in law lived an hour away and is now moving close to us. She also doesn’t understand the concept of happy medium and uses any chance she can get to see how far she can push and enmesh into our family. With that she brings drama and tribulation. I have been struggling lately myself and want to pick your brain regarding that. I have set a rule of communication with her, non explicit one- I call her once a week to check in, she calls me and she needs my help; e.g. cable, broken appliances. Etc. She seemed pretty good with this boundary for about 2 years now. Now, that she is moving close (about 25 min by drive) she started calling me constantly. Her list of demands is growing proportionally and from some of the phrases she had dropped here and there I imagine this grand gesture at her arrival histrionic “ya da... I have arrived, now love me and take care of me, I’m old, I have raised my son, you owe me, if you won’t do it now, I will die and you will forever regret that”. My uBPDh isn’t able to enforce the boundaries so it’s likely me who will have to do that. What it leaves me with, is I’m likely going to have to block her off on our main line. I will leave one way (an app) open for her to reach me in case of emergency or a dire need. For the remaining of the time I will keep the initial schedule of calling once a week. I’m meeting with a psychologist today to discuss this, I also understand that it’s easier for me because I don’t have a personal investment into those relationships. With my mother, however, I would probably struggle with such a firm boundary. I would appreciate your thoughts...

[Notwendy]

Snowglobe- the difficulty for you is that - it is your H's mother. Each of us brings out family issues into a marriage. Your H and his mother have their family dynamics. When you step into this, it becomes a Karpman triangle- with all three of you in this mix. His issues with his mother, the issues between you and your H, and your issues with his mother. Yikes.

We are fortunate in that neither of us wants to be too close geographically to either of our families. My H's family has its issues but his parents were not as dysfunctional as my mother. I would call his mother co-dependent- but she was a loving and caring mother to her children and they feel bonded to her. There would be FOG if they lived closer to me, but not BPD issues.

There are rarely boundary issues with my H's family but when there are, he doesn't stand up to them in general. If I say something - he tends to side with them ( rescuer) and turn on me. He's the golden child in his family and will take their side. Since his family issues have thankfully not been a major issue, I have left him to deal with his family and let him feel the brunt of any drama. It is better to do that than to get involved.

Likewise he is passive with my mother. I'm the one who sets the boundaries. I think it shocks him sometimes. He would not be like this with his mother, but he doesn't need to.

I don't really have good advice to you except to beware the triangle. Have the boundaries you need with your mother, but also know that this will likely rock the family boat. It did for me and continues to do so. When my father was alive, this became a Karpman triangle between the three of us. BPD mother also enlists her relatives who come to her defense. IMHO, the best we can do in this situation is to try to maintain our own sanity and sense of self through it.  For me this includes letting my H deal with his own family. I agree your job isn't to be his mother's caretaker. I understand the cultural pull to help with elderly parents- I have this too. I have helped some with my H's mother and she's easier to be with than my own mother. However, we don't need to endure abuse, and that's why I have to have boundaries with mine while still trying to help when I can manage it.

[snowglobe]

Thank you for your reply Wendy.
What would happen if your husband would start helping his foo at the expense of your children. For instance, BPD mother calls and cries (victim) that she needs money, he, tries to be a hero (rescuer) gives a large amount which comes at the expanse of kids extracurricular, me being mad about it (punisher) the fight explodes. Only to find out that she had sent this money to a distant third degree relative, that faked cancer diagnosis (4 years later still well and alive after being deemed as 3rd stage brain cancer).
What I want to enforce is just because they have moved geographically, doesn’t mean they are welcome any time they please.
Back to you- what is the format of your communication with your mother. Do you call to listen to her talk about herself (my mother as well as mother in law), or does she actually show interest in you? What kind of relationships does she have with your kids?
How often do you see her?

[Notwendy]

There have been times my H has sent his parents money- where I don't think it was needed, but he has not compromised the needs of the children. I think we all have our bottom line deal breakers. The kids are mine. I had to deal with how my mother treated me and I'm a momma bear when it comes to kids. I am glad I have not faced a situation where my kids were compromised in my marriage and I know I can't say what someone else should do, but personally, I would not stay married to someone who hurt my kids due to how I was raised.

I think that pwBPD instinctively know our bottom line deal breakers and will push us right to the edge but not farther if they have any investment in the relationship. This is a bottom line for me- my kids. I think we have issues when our boundaries are not clear. Not all are "deal breakers" but if we waver on them, then we get them pushed.

For my mother, I call her about once a week and listen to her talk. She may sometimes feign interest in me but she mainly wants information to talk to other people about. If I begin to ask about her, she then will talk about herself.

My kids are polite to her but don't spend a lot of time talking to her. They are older now. She does sometimes call or text them. They have seen how she treated my father and also me, so they are pretty much on to her and also see my struggle to balance thing, not always well.

I don't see her that often- a couple of times a year. She doesn't seem to care or miss me. I am basically useful to her- and so fine with her if I come but I don't think she really cares much about me as a person. She'd love to have me do things for her if I was willing. I was more involved when my father was alive.  I would do almost anything for him. But that meant whatever BPD mother wants. She wants my kids to be her emotional caretakers. I drew the line at that and it was one factor that caused the loss of my relationship with my father.

This set up a conflict- allow mother to use my kids and make her happy, or he'd step in and be angry at me. I loved my father. It was an awful choice but it pushed me to what is a deal breaker for me. This is how I know I could not stay married to someone who compromised my kids.

[snowglobe]

Wendy,
Thank you for sharing your journey. I choose not to be in a relationships with my bio dad who is npd for ten years now. The only times he wanted to speak to me is either to enlist me to do something for him, or, to lecture me on how to live my life. His grandiosity overshadowed his common sense to the point that it became toxic for me. Interestingly, my unpdh stepped aside and said he didn’t want to hear about it. Which in teen lead me to see the relationships for what they were- one sided demand for attention and resources. My BPD mother on the other hand, when things are stable and calm brings a great value to our family. She helps tremendously with the kids and household chores. It would be a lot more difficult without my parents helping. It’s difficult for me to think of my uBPDh’s involvement with his parents after almost 18 years of being together. My mother in law likes to twist things around to serve my husband the victim more and make me a villain. Something else within me also changed after therapy, I no longer believe that if things didn’t work out with my uBPDh a catastrophe would strike. I hope, pray that we can stay together and make it work. However, if things ever didn’t work out, it would not be the end of my life. In some respect things would change, but I’m no longer opposed of the change. Many years ago he made that choice of being with me. Along the years, somehow, I wanted him to stick to the promise, I still do. Yet, if he would decide to leave, I no longer will stop him, I now see that I don’t have that power. Wendy, thank you for showing me, through your advises, CA suggestions, your own personal examples. I pray to change the things I can (my reactions, my sense of entitlement, my education, my job prospects, my relationships with the kids), accept things I can’t change (my uBPDh’s moods, what he does, his relationships with his foo) and for wisdom to know the difference.

[zachira]

Notwendy,
The pain of having a mother with BPD who mistreats us by cycling between being exaggeratedly nice and then just plain cruel is such a heavy cross to bear; it is a lifelong burden and sorrow. We know that the niceness won't last and the mean cycle can strike at any time. Yet, she is our mother, and we would like to have a loving relationship with her and can't. Like you, I feel terribly sad about how I can't really help my mother much in her old age because of how she behaves. I also see my mother a couple of times of year and would go more often and call more often if we had a better relationship. My mother is at the very end of her life age wise and could die any time. She seems to want to make peace with her children, yet continues with the same behaviors. I know I will cry when she dies, because of the sadness I feel about having such a mother, and also the sadness I feel for my mother who so badly wanted to be loved by her children. What is exceptional about us, is we feel sorry for our mothers and how badly they behave, which shows how far we have come. We have compassion for others, even when they behave badly which means we are able to have compassion for ourselves. The only thing we can really do is keep our boundaries and express our feelings about how hard it is to have a mother like this when we need to.

[I am scared]

“This isn't what I wanted for an elderly mother. If it were possible, I would have helped move her near me and would include her in our family holidays and other aspects of our lives. But I know that to do this would bring conflict and drama”

Hi NotWendy,

Yes. I relate to what you are describing 100%. I also relate very much to your description that you can’t trust that the nice behavior is sincere.

It is so so painful. As mothers, as caregivers, it is so painful for me to not be the caring thoughtful person I naturally am - and the pain is amplified because I can’t be my natural self with my own mother. It’s horrible for me. Time has taught me that the alternative, allowing her in, imagining she will behave, is even worse. The lingering trauma I have is too great. Knowing this in my head does not make the feelings any easier though.

[Notwendy]

I think a pw BPD can want what everyone wants, but how they get it involves behaving badly to the people they most want it from. My mother's peers talk about their children and grandchildren, and of course want to "brag" about their grandkids.

It's different with my mother, she "needs" something or someone to fulfill her emotional needs. My father met a lot of this for her, and so did her kids. One difference between NPD/BPD parents and  nons is that NPD/BPD parents see their kids as extensions of themselves, and their purpose to meet the parent's need. Emotionally healthy parents recognize that our kids are their own person and during their childhood- meet their needs.

This difference isn't always visible. We were dressed nicely as kids, because kids need clothes but to BPD mom we were accessories and we reflected her. We did well in school- and this gave her bragging rights. We didn't appear to have any issues at home to those who didn't know. We also were enlisted at an early age to be her emotional caretakers along with my father. Her needs were the center of the family- there were no other needs acknowledged.

As my kids got older, my mother ( who has NPD traits as well as BPD) recognized their potential value to her as narcissistic supply and as emotional caretakers. She began to set up situations where she could be alone with them and tell them her personal feelings, as well as enlist them to "her side" against me- basically badmouth me to them. This alarmed me as she did this with me to get me on her side against my father and tell me "TMI". I got to hear all about their sex issues in their marriage when I was a young teen and I had no idea what she'd tell my kids and I wasn't about to let that happen.

She also would lavish money and expensive gifts on them, and she still does. When she is soliciting someone to her side, she doesn't stop with them, she also engages their friends. When she has tried to solicit me, she has sent gifts to my friends, babysitters, to have a one on one relationship with them. Then the triangulation with them against me starts.

She's shown an unusual attention to my children's friends and other family members on my H's side. She's trying to get herself "in" to my circle. Her main wish would be to bypass me and just get to the kids. She tried this when my father died. She basically disowned me. She has now realized it doesn't work, so now she is trying to be very solicitous with me, while also texting the kids on their phones.

I'm not worried about her succeeding with the kids. The kids know about BPD and are on to her behavior. I'm just so uncomfortable when she is being overly nice to me, perhaps because I wonder what she is up to and it is hard for me to be firm with her when she is being soo nice. I do fear it might be working with my H as he told me he feels sorry for her. Her niceness makes me look like the bad guy, the unreasonable one.

I understand your fear of losing your H and am also glad you are working on that. If someone wants to leave, we really can't stop them, even if we don't wish for it. I had that fear. There was one relationship with a man I was afraid of losing and I was willing to endure emotional abuse for the relationship. That was my father. All I wanted was his love and approval and I did what he wanted me to for BPD mom for any amount he might give me.

I lost the relationship with my father when I had boundaries with my mother. I didn't understand BPD or the dynamics of a BPD relationship at the time. I was devastated. He died shortly after that. I admit that I didn't stop trying for the relationship until it was impossible. I was inconsolable for months, but I got through it, learned a lot. I still miss my father, always will, but I am not willing to endure emotional abuse for any relationship. I understand your wish to keep your marriage, but if it even gets to where you are pushed to your deal breaker line- whatever that is, I trust you will get through it, in time. You don't need to go that far.

[Notwendy]

Zachira and I am scared - thanks for your understanding. My H has a loving mother so he can't really get it. I think this is the continuation of the cycle of losses that we had at different stages. We didn't have a typical mother when we were infants to meet our infant needs. As adolescents our roles were to meet our mother's needs and in my case, this was a way to get approval from my father. As kids, we seek love and approval from parents first.

This has been my role with her ever since. But now I have my own family and then there is also me. Yet, under a typical situation, my mother would be included as a loving grandmother. Ironically she has grown into her role- elderly parent with adult children as helpers, which is how society sees us and also what we would want as well- if things were different.

[madeline7]

NotWendy,

You replied to someone else's post something about setting boundaries and then dealing with you guilt, because you are an empathetic person. This really resonated with me. In fact, most things you say resonate with me. It truly is a double edged sword. We must set healthy boundaries in order to take care of ourselves, and in doing so we still feel badly. But the frustration of being sucked into the vortex of the BPD's manipulation and web of toxicity is so hard for me, yet at least I don't feel "guilty". And then it all implodes anyway, falling for the game, and being used and duped. Fool me once, shame of you, fool me twice, shame on me. BPD fool me a thousand times...this is so hard.

[zachira]

Madeleine7,
It is so hard. We can't help but be duped by the BPD maliciousness and manipulative tactics from time to time. We will never be as evil as they are and would lose our integrity if we did the things the BPD in our lives do. Yes at the same time, we will never get over the hurt of the latest mean act of the BPD in our lives or the surprise, simply because we are not like them. In my experience, they get meaner with time and more expert at hitting below the belt. It is so hard and painful because the abuse never ends, yet we have our reasons for continuing to be in contact with them, as going no contact can mean many more losses like losing contact with other family members, friends, the community we were raised in. Not easy to deal with yet, some day our BPD will have likely have less influence, as with time a lot of people start to get it as the BPD is less able to cover up who he/she really is.

[Notwendy]

would lose our integrity if we did the things the BPD in our lives do.

That's part of the struggle. To keep my privacy boundaries, I have to with hold information from her and even flat out lie ( which I try really hard not to do) to keep them. The Golden Rule is part of my ethical system. I strive to treat others as I would want to be treated and I strive for that with my mother but if I'm being honest and she's lying and manipulating me, then I am being a doormat to her.

But I have to add myself to the equation. Would I suggest someone else allow others to abuse them, to use them, to dupe them? No? The few people who know the situation say they don't blame me - that if anything- I am nicer to her than they would be. It's hard though as I don't want to retaliate- and I don't want to cause any hurt for anyone. I know at some level she is hurt that she doesn't have what her other grandma friends have- grown children and grandchildren who include them in their lives.

Yet, when we do include her, it's a difficult situation for me. She makes the event about her, she can cause a scene, she lies and manipulates me. I'm stressed at my own family celebrations, it changes them for me. I think I deserve some sanity.

This last situation involved us leaving her out of a family event. My H asked " what will you do if she finds out?" Until recently, she would not find out. However she has her FOO all over Facebook and other social media. If anyone posts anything, they download it and send it to her. She's convinced them that "her daughter is keeping her from her grandchildren". Even with privacy settings, her family, their kids- my kids' cousins and friends of their cousins- they all know each other and are "friends" on social media even if they don't socialize together outside of that. It takes one post, one picture to go through her family fast. They correspond by group emails to each other. Sometimes I plan to send her pictures but they get downloaded immediately and sent to her before I get a chance to. Nobody posts anything really private, but anything- a graduation, a birthday party, even a conversation between them and one of my kids gets e mailed to her about it right away.

I also mentioned that one way she gets information is to become friends with our friends and then correspond with them and get them into her circle and then calling them.

So, to have any privacy, I feel I need to lie or omit information, which goes against my own integrity.

[snowglobe]

would lose our integrity if we did the things the BPD in our lives do.

That's part of the struggle. To keep my privacy boundaries, I have to with hold information from her and even flat out lie ( which I try really hard not to do) to keep them. The Golden Rule is part of my ethical system. I strive to treat others as I would want to be treated and I strive for that with my mother but if I'm being honest and she's lying and manipulating me, then I am being a doormat to her.

But I have to add myself to the equation. Would I suggest someone else allow others to abuse them, to use them, to dupe them? No? The few people who know the situation say they don't blame me - that if anything- I am nicer to her than they would be. It's hard though as I don't want to retaliate- and I don't want to cause any hurt for anyone. I know at some level she is hurt that she doesn't have what her other grandma friends have- grown children and grandchildren who include them in their lives.

Yet, when we do include her, it's a difficult situation for me. She makes the event about her, she can cause a scene, she lies and manipulates me. I'm stressed at my own family celebrations, it changes them for me. I think I deserve some sanity.

This last situation involved us leaving her out of a family event. My H asked " what will you do if she finds out?" Until recently, she would not find out. However she has her FOO all over Facebook and other social media. If anyone posts anything, they download it and send it to her. She's convinced them that "her daughter is keeping her from her grandchildren". Even with privacy settings, her family, their kids- my kids' cousins and friends of their cousins- they all know each other and are "friends" on social media even if they don't socialize together outside of that. It takes one post, one picture to go through her family fast. They correspond by group emails to each other. Sometimes I plan to send her pictures but they get downloaded immediately and sent to her before I get a chance to. Nobody posts anything really private, but anything- a graduation, a birthday party, even a conversation between them and one of my kids gets e mailed to her about it right away.

I also mentioned that one way she gets information is to become friends with our friends and then correspond with them and get them into her circle and then calling them.

So, to have any privacy, I feel I need to lie or omit information, which goes against my own integrity.

Wow, Wendy, you are describing our situation with my mil. We too are forced to lie and keep our circle of friends as small as we can to keep it from leaking. When something gets out, it circulated and eventually she makes it all about her. E.g. my s11 bday, my brother in law’s kids don’t get the invite since bil is heavy into drug paraphernalia and does it in a day light since it’s legal in our country. It’s never going to be a part of my kids reality and for that reason his kids don’t have access to my kids (eldest nephew is already using the same drug at 16). When my mil finds out about the celebration she uses fog to shame me for not having the cousins to socialize. I feel dear that she will recruit my uBPDh against me. However I know better then allow my kids to be surrounded by that. Or... she would call my d15 and ask her personal questions about her life and our life, assure her that she will give her money if she “escaped” to her for a bit, and then asks her “ to keep it a secret from mom”(me). Part of me wants to immediately lash out and call her, but I realize that is what she wants,, to stir the trouble. So I just ask my d15 to block her on her phone and now she doesn’t have an access to her.

[Notwendy]

That's one of my mother's maneuvers: "this is our little secret, don't tell Notwendy". She's done it with her family, my father ( of course- they had all kinds of confidences) and has tried it with my children and even my husband. They all learned not to go off with her alone. For a while, I kept their phone #s from her but she called her resources- friends, family, friends of family to get them. I would get an email from a cousin ( on her side ) who hasn't spoken to me in years " hey, send me the kids' phone #'s " and I know she put them up to it.

Unless we went NC with my mother and everyone connected to my mother, ( and that's almost impossible and impractical since there are some mutual contacts ) she has her way of finding out things. She actually enjoys it when she finds something out, kinda like " I gotcha!". Some of it I don't even care if she knows but she thinks I do and enjoys that she found out anyway". I have seen her smile when she knows she did this.

I don't fear it with the kids now that they are older. We've had the BPD talk and they've seen enough of her behavior to not feel much FOG towards her. They still are polite to her, I want them to be ethical, but also they know they have my permission to not return her calls or answer her questions. She tends to ask really nosy questions- who are you dating, do you like anyone? She wants to be their peer, but they can't visualize grandma as a peer so it doesn't work well. Your D is 15 and I still feared this at 15 and tried to block her direct contact with them as much as possible. Once off to college, I couldn't do that as well- so they know it is OK with me for them to have boundaries with her. They are better at it than I am.

However I know I would have a harder time with this if this were my MIL. Fortunately she is caring and does not have BPD. Having a BPD mother who is difficult, I can understand how hard it is for your H to have boundaries with her. Children have an attachment to their parents, even parents who were not good parents. Few people are all good or all bad. Surely your MIL and H had some good times together. I did too, with my mother, but there were bad times too. I think all kids have a longing for those good times, maybe we always will, even if we make the choice to have boundaries.

[Shona]

Can I ask how long between the cycles of being nice and then abusive?
For me sister it is around a year.

[Notwendy]

I can vary but it is usually short. My mother is severely dysregulated frequently. I've seen her cycle within minutes. Leave a series of horrible phone messages on moment, then a sweet one later.

BPD can exist on a spectrum so I think a person's ability to stay stable can vary. My mother is relatively skilled at appearing intact in public, but can only maintain it for a few hours. Behind her appearance of high functioning are several people who do things for her, and she takes, or people assume, credit for it.

Among her immediate family, she's low functioning and is not able to do very much. One example is a community pot luck dinner. She will show up with a lovely home cooked dish, but she had to have someone help her make it.

Ironically she has grown into this in terms of normal because it is normal for an elderly person to need assistance, but she's been like this for about as long as I can recall.

Dysregulations were daily and frequent. We didn't know what we'd see when we came home from school every day. A mother who would greet us with a smile or one screaming at us. We can change from being the worse kids on the planet or good kids a few times a day.

The exception is when she wants something from me now and she will keep up the nice persona until she either gets it or realizes she isn't going to get it. This can last a couple of weeks.