Help me stay grounded in sanity over filing.

[Wilkinson]

Quick Background:

• Married 17 years to uBPDw
• Things were fine for most of it but last two years took a steep dive and I was living in an emotionally/verbally abusive relationship that created a toxic environment in our house
• I have four kids under 15
• I moved out recently with the intent to file for divorce to get a custody plan in place and then I was willing to put the divorce on hold to see if healing could occur

Right now she is constantly begging me to withdraw the petition.  She is saying that she wants to work on the relationship.  She will work out with me custody two weeks at a time with the kids.  Two weeks ago, she kicked me out of the house and wouldn't let me see the kids.  Now that I moved out and filed, she has changed her tune.  I'm very skeptical.  She has been very accommodating to let me see the kids in the past week.  She says, if I can withdraw the petition, we can work on our relationship and try to save our marriage.  Personally I'm afraid to be divorced, and put my kids through a divorce and raised them in a divorced lifestyle.  However, the constant berating and angry aggressive attitude my wife had around me was too much for all of them.

She keeps on telling me what her lawyer says and what her friends say to try and convince me that it's no big deal to withdraw the petition.  All it costs is another couple hundred if I decide I want to get back into it.  She says she cannot work on the relationship while the threat of divorce is hanging over her head.  It just causes her to panic.  My problem is that we are beyond just a relationship problem.  I'm just a layman who read books, so maybe it's not BPD, but there was clearly verbal/emotional abuse that I don't feel like she's taken responsibility for.  Like I feel that there needs to be some acceptance on that, before we can work on the relationship.  

I want to do everything I can to give her a chance to choose to change her behavior and save the marriage. If that means we need to be separated for years, I can do that. However, I want to have some legal plan in place with shared custody.  Not just verbal agreements between the two of us.  I realize with four kids, my job that travels once a month, and activities, that it would be difficult to have a rigid plan and doing some two week planning horizon might be something that works.  I'm just nervous to not have something that has an official record.

I know nothing of the divorce process during or after.  I just feel like me withdrawing the petition is just manipulation.  Please feel me in on anything even if it's just other's thoughts on the situation because I feel so lost on this.

[worriedStepmom]

I was once a member of a support group for people going through a divorce.  Many of us were people whose partners had filed, so we didn't necessarily want a divorce.

Someone told me once that a divorce is the end to the marriage you had.  There's no reason you can't get married to that same person again and start over with a new and improved marriage.

Why are you afraid to be divorced and what are you afraid of about "raising your kids in a divorced lifestyle"?  Sometimes it helps to detail out your fears and see whether your emotional response is proportional to them.

[Wilkinson]

Why are you afraid to be divorced and what are you afraid of about "raising your kids in a divorced lifestyle"?  Sometimes it helps to detail out your fears and see whether your emotional response is proportional to them.

I guess the main thing is the feeling of failure.  I had to choose her over my family.  I worked hard to provide for my wife and kids.  I always dreamed of my kids growing up in a stable home with a nuclear family.  I don't want to have to negotiate holidays and time with the kids.  I truly enjoyed planing for their future, our family's future with my wife.  Being a provider was something I did with pride.  It feels like giving up.  I always believed that marriage was a choice.  You chose to love and forgive, even when you sometimes didn't feel like it. 

I guess my other fear is that I am giving up when I need to just stick with it.  Right now my wife wants me to talk with some friends we lost contact with.  He started drinking too much and maybe had an affair.  They also had four kids.  She stuck it out and he eventually got better, got his life under control.  My fear is that is just what I need to do.

However, I'm nervous to let my guard down.  I feel like if I give in to what she wants, withdraw the petition, she'll go back to her old behavior once she does't have the fear of divorce.  Then I'll get fed up and file, and she will behave again.  The cycle will just continue. 

[MeandThee29]

One regret I have is taking mine back after a previous separation and behavioral health stay without written expectations and what would happen if he didn't work it through. There were lots of promises on his part, but none of it stuck.

Maybe because of all I experienced, I'd leave it on the table. Sorry to be rough that way, but if she won't work it you have to be clear on what is next. Either she's motivated by that, or she isn't.

[MeandThee29]

I guess the main thing is the feeling of failure.  I had to choose her over my family.  I worked hard to provide for my wife and kids.  I always dreamed of my kids growing up in a stable home with a nuclear family.  I don't want to have to negotiate holidays and time with the kids.  I truly enjoyed planing for their future, our family's future with my wife.  Being a provider was something I did with pride.  It feels like giving up.  I always believed that marriage was a choice.  You chose to love and forgive, even when you sometimes didn't feel like it. 

I guess my other fear is that I am giving up when I need to just stick with it.  Right now my wife wants me to talk with some friends we lost contact with.  He started drinking too much and maybe had an affair.  They also had four kids.  She stuck it out and he eventually got better, got his life under control.  My fear is that is just what I need to do.

However, I'm nervous to let my guard down.  I feel like if I give in to what she wants, withdraw the petition, she'll go back to her old behavior once she does't have the fear of divorce.  Then I'll get fed up and file, and she will behave again.  The cycle will just continue. 

I listened to a podcast not long ago that cited a study that 40% of divorces involved addiction, mental health issues, and/or multiple affairs that destabilized the marriage. She called such situations a "rescuing divorce." I'm not sure that I would call that a failure if there was a good amount of effort to turn it around. Turning a marriage in those situations isn't going to happen easily. And in cases where the home life is chaotic because of what was going on in the home, the children do amazingly well afterwards if there is a divorce. It's totally different from where the divorce happened because of boredom, falling out of love, etc.

I get that it's hard to face. I had a chaotic, abusive childhood. I thought I had found the relationship that was going to heal all that and more. It did for quite awhile, but then my marriage became eerily like my childhood. My mother told me at one point in adulthood that she was praying that God would kill me. My husband told me at times that I was such a bad wife, that God might kill me one day on the road. I have friends that call that a "word curse." Bad, very bad.

[Wilkinson]

Thank you, MeandThee29, that helps.  If I can restate what you just said because it helps me, if I were to withdraw the petition, I should have something official, like in writing or something, not necessarily through the courts of what I expect.  If she doesn't follow through with it, we continue on with the divorce?

That makes sense.  

Right now I'm afraid to withdraw because my fear is she will go back to the same old patterns.  Does having the petition in place mean that we can't still give things time?  I had one lawyer who said he never does separation agreements.  He felt they are a waste of time.  If you end up getting a divorce, you start the whole process over again.  He said file the petition, get to a stable point and then put it on hold.  My wife is saying that it will cost so much money to file a reply to my petition and go through the process and we could just save time and money by withdrawing the petition, work it out on our own and then if it doesn't work, refile.  That just sounds like I need to have more trust that what I have any more.  But I can't seem to make sense of anything any more.

[maxsterling]

Right now I'm afraid to withdraw because my fear is she will go back to the same old patterns.  

I'm no expert, but I see her current behavior as part of the same pattern, that hasn't changed.  It's all manipulation. 

[MeandThee29]

Thank you, MeandThee29, that helps.  If I can restate what you just said because it helps me, if I were to withdraw the petition, I should have something official, like in writing or something, not necessarily through the courts of what I expect.  If she doesn't follow through with it, we continue on with the divorce?

After mine left the second time and went far away, I saw a life coach who had helped put quite a few marriages back together working with a male coach in the same office. She said that that when a couple came to them either separated or preparing to separate, they drew up a list of goals and expectations leading to a final meeting of both coaches and the couple after ninety days or less. They scheduled weekly separate sessions initially and then joint. I didn't ask the particulars because I was in an entirely different situation, so I don't know how it all worked. Most reconciled, and a handful did not.

I don't know though. Mine had a behavior contract that he showed me after the suicide attempt that gave me a lot of hope, but of course nothing negative goes into something  like that. I found it not long ago in a box of papers. It was fine while it lasted, but he violated nearly all of it in the end. I shredded it. So sad.

[MeandThee29]

I'm no expert, but I see her current behavior as part of the same pattern, that hasn't changed.  It's all manipulation. 

A friend once commented that people who have a pattern of manipulation are very broken. Until you fix the individual brokenness, you cannot expect the manipulation to end. When it's a pattern, they aren't necessarily aware of it themselves and will promise to change without digging deep into the brokenness. 

[Wilkinson]

I was talking to an older trusted friend who had a suggestion for me.  Don't withdraw the petition.  I agree with that.  I'll keep it in place.  I don't want to shut the door on a restoration of our marriage, but I need to no allow myself to be run over.  My lawyer did put a parenting plan together that was going to be submitted to her lawyer to work out.  Before I do that, he said to consider holding off on the legal parenting plan. In stead lay out my own (perhaps the same plan) in writing to her.  If she truly does want to restore our marriage and not just going through a cycle of abuse, than she would be willing to follow a plan that we both agree with before hand.  Of course none of us our perfect she might be late with drop off or something.   Things will come up and we'll want to switch and so on.  However, if she starts to get angry with me and retaliate by not letting me see my kids when we agreed I could, it's further evidence that she really isn't into reconciliation and I go forward with the legal parenting plan. 

I'm sure there are some people who read this and think, "given your history, why do you think she would go forward with this?"  I'd say that's not a bad argument.  I guess, it's still hard to put my myself and my family through a divorce.  This is one step that gives her a chance to improve things and if she blows it, it makes the decision easier for me to move forward.  I don't know.  Feel free to challenge this as I try to navigate though this hazy situation that I don't want to be in.

[MeandThee29]

Yes, boundaries can be very healthy. If you are reasonable in your demands at this point, and she runs over them...well, you can in good faith know that you tried.

If you choose to proceed with the divorce process, keep this in mind. My attorney told me jokingly that the law actually is intended to protect people like me who want to give away too much. You sound like that type too. I'm obviously being obscure for a reason, but there were some things I wanted to give that were not mine to give, and others that would have been overturned immediately if it was challenged later because of existing laws. You want none of that in your agreement. It is a legal and financial transaction, and you have to approach it that way.

[ForeverDad]

I guess the main thing is the feeling of failure.  I had to choose her over my family.  (Isolation is a known trait of controlling spouses.)  I worked hard to provide for my wife and kids.  I always dreamed of my kids growing up in a stable home with a nuclear family.  (We all had dreams, sadly they weren't our reality.)  I don't want to have to negotiate holidays and time with the kids.  (That's life for us.  It is what it is.)

I guess my other fear is that I am giving up when I need to just stick with it.  (When I made my police report about now-ex's Threat of DV, the officer warned me, he had seen this before, that dropping the matter would not make things better.)

However, I'm nervous to let my guard down.  I feel like if I give in to what she wants, withdraw the petition, she'll go back to her old behavior once she doesn't have the fear of divorce.  Then I'll get fed up and file, and she will behave again.  The cycle will just continue.

Do you see this as being "guilted", your proactive choice is being cast as a problem and not a path to a solution?  Another thought, why would taking the step toward divorce cause her to promise to improve her behavior?  Why hadn't she improved her behaviors long before now?

Right now I'm afraid to withdraw because my fear is she will go back to the same old patterns... I had one lawyer who said he never does separation agreements.  He felt they are a waste of time.  If you end up getting a divorce, you start the whole process over again.  He said file the petition, get to a stable point and then put it on hold.

Promises are easy, the hard part is getting real improvements in actions.

My lawyer had told me he'd been in practice for 17 years.  Probably he's up to nearly 30 years by now.  He said he had done only 2 Legal Separations.  The relationships had ended, they chose LS so the spouse could keep health insurance, there was no major conflict between the spouses.

He warned me that the risk was going though the process once, ex learning which behaviors were sabotaging and then the second time around the ex would know what to avoid so that then we were at a greater disadvantage than before.

I guess, it's still hard to put my myself and my family through a divorce.  This is one step that gives her a chance to improve things and if she blows it, it makes the decision easier for me to move forward.

It is just as valid to flip that reasoning.  Isn't it also hard NOT to resolve things with a divorce?  I mean, married for 17 years, last two years getting worse, things aren't improving, she claims it will be better IF you pull back from the legal process.

[formflier]

Right now I'm afraid to withdraw because my fear is she will go back to the same old patterns.  

Hey Wilkinson 

I think it's important to discuss patterns.

How many times have you filed for divorce, she begged you to return, you dropped the petition and she "backslid" into old habits? 

I've been around this stuff or a while now and I can't imagine a scenario where your wife doesn't backslide to some extent (even if she agrees to therapy and does all kinds of stuff).  That's just human nature..made worse to an extent by mental health issues.

I would encourage you to try to develop the long view so you can evaluate (in a rather detached way)...the "net" progress over time. 

Said another way, instead of focusing on the "two steps back" that happened yesterday...try to realize that over the past (period of time) you are "net" 10 steps forward or "net" (x) steps back.

Here is why I would nudge you towards giving your marriage relationship every reasonable chance that you can.

If I understand your story right you roughly have 15 years "find" and 2 years "bad".

I would hope that means there is more hope that you could get back to "fine".

Note..my relationship has played out similarly.  15ish years of fine to really good.  Natural disaster.  Several years of really really bad and then net improvement over the past 3-4 years.

Are we back to the way things were in the first 15...nope, but we are a lot closer to that than we were even 3 years ago.

I would sing a different tune to you if "she had always been this way". 

Do you see the difference?

Best,

FF

[Quicksylver]

I'm really sorry that you're going through this. My partner and I recently went through a custody battle of our own with her ex (BPD) so I can relate to what you're describing.

While I don't have experience with trying to salvage a relationship with a BPD, I did want to write you about the similarities I noticed. The power that BPD folks have has a lot to do with how isolated they make you feel, like the "mistakes" and "flaws" they point out in you are the sole issues in your relationship. My partner waited for years to pursue getting full custody of her daughter because, like you, she also did not understand the court system and truly believed she would risk losing everything she cared about.

My first recommendation is for you to start tracking everything you can (saving texts, journalling about interactions, tracking her moods, etc.). This will prove beneficial for you regardless if you decide to stay with her or pursue the divorce. I'd also gather any important documents as well to help safeguard yourself. I found that the easiest way to keep everything in an inconsipuous place was to create a gmail account dedicated to this documentation. Their free drive is huge and easy to use. You can scan in documents, create trackers, etc. My partner's main weakness was her ex's constant gaslighting -which is easy to disprove once you have the actual, cold / hard facts lying in front of you. I think this could help you with making your decision overall as well. My partner kept telling me that she had this terrible memory, when in actuality the constant gaslighting had created an incredible amount of self doubt.

(if you do separate, track the parenting times you have with your kids -especially if it fluctuates (my partner's ex liked to change the schedule almost daily and then claim she wasn't getting enough time with our daughter). Your lawyer can use it to file a Status Quo and lock the schedule in place if necessary down the road. You'll want to do this tracking consistently as a judge will require at least 90 days of documentation to implement it)

My second recommendation (if you haven't already) is to sit down with your lawyer and ask any questions you might have. Knowledge is power and frankly, the court system is very mysterious and frightening from the outside. Everyone fears the worst going in, but you do have rights. A concrete action plan will help give you confidence and will take the bite out of your wife's threats (if she's anything like my partner's ex -the vast majority of times, she does not know what she's talking about when it comes to legal matters).

As for the similarities I picked up in your post, my partner's ex threatened her with legal action several times a year. She was constantly stating that her bond with their daughter was stronger/more valuable because she was the biological mom -a fact that she constantly threatened my partner with, claiming she had more legal rights to their daughter because of that fact (completely untrue). She would make up things their daughter said, claiming that she was asking for more time with her. She would recruit family and friends to approach my partner -both to talk her into staying and to reprimand her for being abusive to the Ex (again, completely untrue). Distortion campaigns were pretty frequent on social media and my partner felt targeted almost constantly. Meanwhile the Ex would also pepper in eloquent apologies for her actions and pleas for parenting help (providing last minute child care, help dealing with their daughter's temper tantrums, etc.). If any of this rings true for you, I encourage you to read "Stop Walking On Eggshells" if you haven't already. It really helped my family and I deal with this.

Reach out if you need documentation help. I'd be happy to share what we have in place.

[JNChell]

Hi, Wilkinson. This stood out.

I guess the main thing is the feeling of failure.

This is why I fought so hard to keep things together. The harder I fought, the worse I felt. I eventually came to realize that feeling bad didn’t benefit my Son. Moving forward has. When we realize that it isn’t possible to work with the disordered other, and realize how trying will affect the kids, it becomes fairly easy to readjust. Once you make it about the kids, you’ll see how much your ex makes it about her. Always keep in mind that everything is about her in her mind. Go from there.

[once removed]

That just sounds like I need to have more trust that what I have any more.

distrust is the real gulf between the two of you. each of you is waiting for the other party to demonstrate trust.

youre waiting for her to show signs before you withdraw the petition. shes waiting for you to withdraw the petition as a sign.

its not that either of you are right or wrong. its just that thats the conflict between the two of you. youre at a stalemate. can it be resolved? limbo is just creating more distrust and pain.

what would working on the relationship look like between the two of you? what would she need to do from your perspective to gain trust?

[Wilkinson]

Once you make it about the kids, you’ll see how much your ex makes it about her. Always keep in mind that everything is about her in her mind. Go from there.

This is what I’ve been trying. It’s hard. The kids don’t want to see the dissolution of our marriage, but I also know I can’t teach my sons that this is how you get treated as a husband. I know her fighting affects them too.

[Wilkinson]

what would working on the relationship look like between the two of you? what would she need to do from your perspective to gain trust?

There were times I felt I offered her my trust first before I filed. I can think of some times since where I did and got burned. I keep trying to think what would she need to do to regain my trust? I guess I’d love to hear from others how they made the decision to go back to an abuse is spouse.

For me, I’d like to see a through acknowledgement of the abusive behavior. Like can she tell most of things she’s done and take responsibility for it. And understand that it will take a long time to fix

[formflier]

There is little chance she will "acknowledge" abuse without intensive therapy.

Here is the thing.  What do you have to loose by working on the relationship (going to counseling?)  Seriously?

I'm not suggesting you withdraw the filing.  If she sticks on that...the offer to withdraw in exchange for a post-nuptial agreement.

Either way you have established a better legal framework (divorce or some other agreement)

Best,

FF

[Wilkinson]

  What do you have to loose by working on the relationship (going to counseling?)  Seriously?

I don't know if I made it clear earlier, but a year ago we started counseling for several months.  We went from counseling from August to January before she stopped.  We then tried again in May and June which seemed to make it worse.

[formflier]

I don't know if I made it clear earlier, but a year ago we started counseling for several months.  We went from counseling from August to January before she stopped.  We then tried again in May and June which seemed to make it worse.

So..again..what is the downside "right now"?

Best,

FF

[JNChell]

Hi again, Wilkinson. You’ve gotten some sound advice here. Albeit, mixed, but solid things to think about. Your children obviously want mom and dad to stay together. I sense that you would like to find a way to work things out as well. formflier makes very solid points. There has been more good than bad. Is that enough for you to consider staying? There are tools that you can implement to help. It’s possible, but you should realize that you’ll be doing the work and making adjustments. She won’t. With the work that you put in, you may see some profound improvements. What would you really like to see happen?

[ForeverDad]

I sometimes state it pragmatically this way...

It is what it is.  Your spouse will do - or not do - whatever she decides. Do what you feel you need to do - or not do.

But beware, if you find yourself appeasing or backtracking or dismantling good boundaries, then things will go downhill.  You know that from past experience.  For example, you've tried joint sessions before.  A couple times.  If you have serious misgivings about a third try, then listen to your gut.

The benefit now is that you've tapped into the collective experiences of many people in peer support.  We've been there, done that.  Even if we can't give specific advice for your specific circumstances, we generally can vouch for what usually works and what usually doesn't work.

As for your children not wanting you to end the marriage... They're children.  They see things from their limited perspective.  Yes, you can listen to them but they're still just children.  Would you let them decide not to attend school?  Would you let them decide when their bedtime is on school nights?  You of course listen but then proceed with what you determine, especially now that you are more informed than before, is the "less bad" course.  Their experience is limited and quite likely it is that they'd rather not have "what they have now" changed to something unfamiliar.  Understandable but not something to risk sabotaging their futures over.

[formflier]

Thinking about FD said..I would encourage you to think about if YOU can do joint sessions differently this time.  That's the only consideration.  The only way to know/find out if your wife can..is to try and see.  We know not to put too much stock in her promises (at least at this point).

Perhaps you only go to one session and you, the T, your wife...or everyone decides that your new boundaries aren't going to fit well with your wife.  Again..only one way to find out.


Isn't there a way to leave a door open, without dismantling boundaries that appear to be working for you.  I 100% agree with not "going backwards" (at least not without very careful thought)

Best,

FF

[once removed]

For me, I’d like to see a through acknowledgement of the abusive behavior. Like can she tell most of things she’s done and take responsibility for it. And understand that it will take a long time to fix

i agree with formflier that this could take a very long time to occur, if ever.

i guess the question is, are you willing to stay in this position until that happens?

it seems to me that the limbo is hurting both of you more than helping. trust is only further dissolving, resentment only growing.

[mart555]

I'll chime in on a few things:
- Sure, kids will want parents to stay together but it doesn't mean that it's best for them.
- What you currently see as 15 years of "good" and 3 years of "bad" you may see it way differently once you're out of the fog.

7 months after separation the kids and I are still realizing things now that we're out of the FOG: how we weren't a happy family although at the time it felt like we were.

[formflier]

What if I gave you a truly dichotomous choice.

1.  She admitted what she has done and said she is sorry, but her behavior remained bad (perhaps somewhat better)..but generally bad.

or

2.  You and her share different memories of the past, yet her behavior going forward is remarkably better.


I get it that you want her to admit, agree with your version and all that...and get better. 

Is that reasonable?

What "hallmark" of BPD makes it hard for them to "look at themselves" and "admit wrong"?

Best,

FF   

[I Am Redeemed]

This thread has reached the posting limit and has been locked. Part 2 is here:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=338809.0