Just moved in together, not doing well

[Rodders]

I met my gf 7 months ago, I quickly worked out that she has bpd from her intense emotional reactions and inability to self soothe, and it also makes sense from her abusive childhood. All the signs of bpd apply to her in some way.
We had an intense first few months, many downs but mostly ups and she is incredibly loving and doting when she is 'herself'. She lived alone and has moved in with me over the last few days. Since moving in she's extremely cold with me, barely talks or acknowledges me, seems angry at me all the time and makes me feel uncomfortable in my own house. I get that her routine and space at her home was very important, more so than for most people and her loss of that is affecting her.
But how do I react to this? Do I go along with it and avoid her and give her space to settle in, or do I pander to her and show her affection, even though she doesn't reciprocate if I do (often avoids me if I try) ?
Anyone have any advice? As it stands I can't continue like this for long as its driving me crazy!

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[once removed]

hi Rodders, and

make no mistake, moving in together is a big challenge for any couple. certainly it can be more so when it involves someone with BPD.

how to react? its hard to say; you mention its been a few days since she moved in, do i have that right?

have the two of you spoken about how things are strained at all?

[eastofeast]

Hi Mate  

I'm new here too, but I'm at the other end of the journey from where you are. I was with a very intense lady for two and a bit years, and we split up a few months ago, not really by my choice because I still wanted to try right up to the end. But I also have to admit that I was in a very very very bad state by the time it ended and that I am far more healthy now than I was half a year ago, albeit still battered by and very sad about the whole story.

Your post is not the only familiar story for me. Most of what I've read has been very familiar indeed, but I read what you wrote and my experience came right back to me, flashing before my eyes. I moved in with my ex after only two months, mainly because she was so enthusiastic about the idea (and I can see now that that is pretty typical behaviour). I had seen the early warning signs in those two months, but of course I was head over heels in love, and her love seemed so absolute that I had no doubt that I was doing the right thing in this case to follow my heart, even though of course some friends advised me to take a little more time before taking that rather monumental step. I also have to say that I was a bit influenced in my thinking by the fact that she's Italian, and that I thought this behaviour could to some extent be put down to cultural differences, which we would work out over time... In that sense I'm slightly envious of you in a way that you're not under any illusion about where it's coming from. I wish I'd been better prepared. If I had, maybe the story would have been different.

Anyway, reading what you wrote simply reminded of one afternoon/evening, only three days after we started living together, when she came back home from work in a very good mood at first, but then after about half an hour suddenly switched state (inexplicably for me at the time) into a foul rage from hell, which lasted on and off for the rest of the night. She actually apologised for it at one point in the evening, but then switched back into the incoherent angry state one more time before it was all over. Of course I didn't understand. I couldn't see anything at all that I had done wrong. Of course I can think of some occasions when I did say or do something, but not that evening, for sure.

And that really was only the beginning. Within another two months I was out of the house staying with a friend (who subsequently stopped talking to me when I went back to her - watch out for that!). My stuff was locked up in the room of the flatmate at the place where she and I were living. Then I went back after a few days, and it was alright for a bit, but that pattern went on for two years. I've had my stuff outside the house several times, waiting for Ubers to take me to the nearest storage place, have had quite a few possessions lost or broken in the chaos, and have also become an expert on London's AirBnBs! Ask me any time if you're looking for travel advice

My conclusion from it all is that although it's great that you yourself have recognised what you're dealing with from the beginning (and I really wish that I had had the clarity that you already do), it's not going to be any good without her also recognising what it is. My ex knows very well that she's not OK, and more than once she broke down in tears telling me this. We tried many things - meditation and couple counselling being the two most notable things that we actually did together. I did a load of therapy for myself, but I do have to say that she didn't do as much as me (and I'm not being judgmental about that any more, because I know that she's got demons of abuse and neglect that she is simply terrified to face properly). She generally projected the "madness" onto me. "Madness": I know it's probably not politically correct to use that word, hence the ironic quotation marks, but what else can you really call it? By the end, that projection had worked, and I certainly was feeling more than a little bit mad sometimes, unable to interact socially and unsure any more about who I actually was.

I came to this forum because I was looking for books that would help me to understand what has happened to me in the last two years, and maybe to understand what needy gap in my psychology it was that I thought she was somehow completing. I'd say that you need to do the same, before things get out of hand. Get hold of some books about it. Check out this list which I was pointed to on my arrival:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?board=33.0

And look... Be careful about talking to her directly about this stuff. You don't want it blowing up in your face. Read a bit. Think about what's going on. All the best, and please take care!

[Rodders]

Wow thank you @eastofeast and @once removed... really appreciate your replies.

One thing I've learned from past experience with my gf is when she is distancing herself, which she did over xmas, she almost has to hit rock bottom before she can start climbing up again - and inevitably she did this a few days ago where she basically ended it all and said she can't go on, told me she's booking a flight to Oz and this is it, then slowly she starts to come out of it and starts to return again. It's like she falls down a well and has to hit the bottom before bouncing up. Since that happened she's been really good, positive, happy, we've been a great team and getting her settled into the house and all seems OK.

However this morning my ex (I'm still married, going through divorce) came round to drop off my son, and my gf started to distance again. She has the typical BPD black and white thinking and to her my ex is evil and any interaction with her puts her in an emotional state (she says my ex reminds her of her Mother who is the figure in her life that caused the abuse that I suspect led to her BPD). She's again saying she can't handle it all and is talking of booking flights to Oz. It's the up and down that is so hard to handle - literally a few hours ago things were great and now she's retreating again.

I understand from reading about BPD roughly what is happening, but like you say @eastofeast, I need to get her to acknowledge and own this before she can start to deal with it. When I've mentioned counselling before she's just said "why would I pay someone to sit there and cry for hours". She's definitely avoiding confronting her issues. I got her to do meditation for a while, it's hard to tell if that helped but it can't have made things worse.

It's just so hard - here I've found someone who is truly amazing when she's "herself" and we make a great team, my boy loves her to bits, we have so much in common etc... but when she's not herself, which is quite frequent, things are just so hard to deal with, and the main thing is I can't let my little boy be affected by her and her moods.
I really hope I can get through this and get her the help she needs and we can carry on happily, but having read around a lot I realise this is probably a slim chance.
Be good to hear if anyone has been where I am and pushed through and come out the other side? Is it worth sticking with? Right now I am not planning to give up.
I'll read those books @eastofeast, thank you for the suggestions.. and appreciate your support again guys, helps to know it's not just me going through this!

[Rodders]

Just a little update, she has been blanking me again all morning, and I just tried to have a conversation with her. I tried to explain to her that I feel that her hatred for my ex goes beyond just that - I think there is something deeper going on (i.e. I think she is projecting anger and other emotions from years of abuse by her mother onto my ex), and that her black and white attitude is very difficult for me as one minute I'm loved and held to high regard, the next I'm the problem (because I bring my ex and a few other issues to the table, she brings BPD which in itself is a massive problem! I didn't say that though!) ... As you warned @eastofeast it is rocky ground - she accused me of calling her crazy, and none of it seemed to hit home.
I know from reading around that there is no point debating and trying to be logical with a BPD in full flow, so I now have to go back to just existing, with my son who I currently have (I share him 50/50 with my ex) and focusing on him until she maybe comes round in a day or two. As it stands she's booking flights to Oz and is leaving in a few weeks (she isn't, she's used this many times before and it's never happened).
And to think just yesterday we were the best team, working together on plans for the house, totally in sync, happy, having fun, and in a split second it all turns around. How do people cope with the flip flopping (splitting is the term I think?)?

[eastofeast]

I can't believe that you're ahead of me even in reading those books! I've just got one of them, but not going to start reading it with the mild New Year hangover still on me. I can only wonder what might have been if I'd looked into this stuff properly while I was with her. I really hope that you can make it work, and prove to the rest of us that it is possible. Partly inspired by you, and completely in the face of everything I said in my previous post, I actually sent a few messages to my ex over the last few days. Christmas was so miserable that I felt I had to take at least some small action over New Year. We all know that distancing from it is much easier said than done. I don't think that I poured my heart out too much. I simply said that I wish I had known a few things that I understand now (without saying exactly what that is, of course), plus a few other things. Her reply was pretty frigid - "Happy New Year", and that was it. But I'm not upset by that now in the way that I would have been even one week ago, because I do have more confidence now that something in what I said will have got through to her, even if she's not showing it.

It's much easier to speculate about what's going on in her mind from where I am than from where you are, because I've got the distance, whether or not that's what I really wanted. Where you are, you're going to be buffeted by the ever-changing winds of her mood, with little time to think about what's going on, and to know how to react. So ultimately only you know the answer to how much of it all you can absorb and stay sane and in one piece.

Like I said already, really wishing you the best of luck, and if anything happens over here I'll report back (but I'm really not expecting anything much any time soon, or even ever!)

[eastofeast]

I should just say, by the way, with reference to your gf's attitude to your ex, that of course my ex was not especially receptive to me telling her stories about my exes (not that any of them were actually around, or any kind of threat). Certainly not stories about the exes for whom I still have some fondness ("feelings" would be too strong a word, as all of the stories are old ones). This was not really consistent with her telling me many many stories about her ex-bfs. I wouldn't say that she continuously demonised them, but there are some things she said which of course I am forced to doubt a little bit now (not that I will ever know, I guess). Obviously it was not amazing for me to have to listen to her stories, without very often getting the chance to talk about my past. I do remember trying to talk to her once about one of my more fondly remembered exes, and picking up a lot of hostility. Of course it makes sense that when they are splitting (yes, correct term, I believe), because it's presumably very difficult for the BP mind to conceive of a previous gf being a normal human being with some good points (obviously, because otherwise you would never have been with her) and equally obviously some bad points. Clearly it all has to be in black and white, and that basic pragmatism that we might take for granted does not necessarily hold for them

[eastofeast]

Sorry, last thing that I thought relevant... Your gf's attitude to your ex sounds pretty consistent with the condition. Obviously your ex is the ultimate threat to her (perceived) insecure/fragile hold on you, even if the idea of that is absurd to you. I don't have a direct comparison to make, other than that I ended up being distanced from one female friend that I had been very close with, and I haven't reconciled with her yet. Maybe in time...

[Turkish]

Your son's mother is a convenient avatar for projection.  The fact is that given your son, his mother will forever be a part of your lives, especially until he's out of high school.  Even if you were to minimize interactions at exchanges, there are still school events, birthdays and extra curricula.

Obviously, that's an invalidating way of saying it.  Have you seen the articles in the pull-down menu at the very top of the board under Tools? These are great articles with links to member discussions at the ends. 

It sounds like your gf might have Depression as well.  A person with BPD feels that their feelings are inherently worthless and don't matter; therefore, they are inherently worthless and don't matter (i.e., unworthy of being loved). Living with this core inner shame, it's easy to be triggered by external circumstances, or those thoughts in her mind which torture her. 

What validation approaches have you tried? It's easy to be unintentionally invalidating. 

[strugglingBF]

I can identify with multiple parts of this post.  First and foremost, my uBPDgf and I tried blending our families about 1 year into dating.  She has a 20 year old daughter and a 18 year old son (I highly suspect her daughter is BPD and most definitely narcissistic).  I have a 12 year old daughter and a 14 year old son.  They were all 4 years younger when we merged households.  I discovered very painfully, with many police calls to my house, and with quite a few therapy appointments, that I was living with two people (my BPDgf and her daughter) that most definitely both have some kind of personality disorder.  I am still dating my GF, but she lives in her old house that she rented out while we attempted blending our houses.  We had a very ugly ending to our blended house project.  I will not live with her, or her daughter, until both of them get help.  I have made this clear to my GF.  They were a team that constantly had each others backs.  GF's daughter was very disrespectful to me on a daily basis for 3 years straight, and my GF did nothing to correct her (EVER).  She actually would justify her daughter's disrespect by saying I was too hard on her.  All because I cut her no slack as she would constantly sneak random thug boys she met online into my house in the middle of the night, constantly had drugs coming in and out of my house, repeatedly told me to "F" off any time I asked her to clean up after herself or if I asked her to do anything for that matter.  She ended her time in my house by assaulting my son (yes, I pressed charges on her) when I asked her to please show more respect around the house.  My GF will defend her assault on my son to this day saying it was my fault for being so hard on her.  It is insane how neither of them (my GF or her daughter) own anything. 

My GF also hates my ex-wife.  Really has no reason to other than the fact my ex is not fond of her and some of the experiences our children have witnessed in my house due to my GF and her daughter's instability. Also, my relationship with GF started and was kind of the catalyst for my divorce.  So my ex does not care for GF and probably never will.  I can't really blame her.  But my GF holds it against me and wants me to shun my ex in her honor.  I do not have a close relationship with my ex.  We co-parent and that it is.  That is still too much for my GF most of the time.  She literally wants to know whenever I have communication with my ex, and she needs to see the exact texts or emails so she can see for herself.  If I ever has to bring my ex up for some reason (plans with kids, events, etc.), she immediately puts her appearance or clothes down.  Uses very harsh words like slut, whore, skank, etc.  I have told my GF a number of times if she talks about my kids mom like that in their presence we are going to have a problem.  I will not allow it.  So far she has respected that.  My GF has no filter or care for anyone or anything but herself when in the midst of a BPD episode, and it is frankly quite scary because ANYTHING can set it off. 

[Rodders]

Your son's mother is a convenient avatar for projection.  The fact is that given your son, his mother will forever be a part of your lives, especially until he's out of high school.  Even if you were to minimize interactions at exchanges, there are still school events, birthdays and extra curricula.

Obviously, that's an invalidating way of saying it.  Have you seen the articles in the pull-down menu at the very top of the board under Tools? These are great articles with links to member discussions at the ends. 

It sounds like your gf might have Depression as well.  A person with BPD feels that their feelings are inherently worthless and don't matter; therefore, they are inherently worthless and don't matter (i.e., unworthy of being loved). Living with this core inner shame, it's easy to be triggered by external circumstances, or those thoughts in her mind which torture her. 

What validation approaches have you tried? It's easy to be unintentionally invalidating. 

Thank you Turkish, those links are very useful, I will be reading and watching the videos this morning.

Almost all the problems we have and have had arise from my son's Mother, and my gf's inability to deal with her.

Yesterday my ex came to the house to pick up my son. Before she came my gf asked if I could ask her to take my dog for a few days (my gf doesn't cope well with my dog, she claims it is another reminder of my ex, and makes no attempt to bond with it. I have no formal arrangement of sharing dog care with my ex, her house doesn't allow dogs so she only does it on an informal basis). When my ex arrived she actually offered to take the dog this weekend, which I accepted, but when I told my gf she was angry/upset because she'd asked me to get her to take the dog for a few days starting from then, not the weekend. She saw this as me not prioritising her needs and not challenging my ex, and ultimately putting my ex's needs above hers. I guess this all boils down to insecurity and the perceived threat of my ex. She also claims she smiled at my ex as she was at the front door and my ex blanked her, which infuriated her further.

What would be the validating/non-invalidating way to cope with this? I would need to acknowledge her feelings, but I also wouldn't want to accept that what she is suggesting is true - it would make no sense to put my ex's feelings before hers as the last thing I want to do is upset her and cause her pain. Also, things my ex does like not smiling back at her, I have no control over.

[Rodders]

Eastofeast, thank you for your replies, what you say makes a lot of sense to me.

I'm glad I inspired you to reach out to your ex, I hope the outcome of it is what you want, please keep us posted!

You can see what happened yesterday in my previous reply to Turkish. The outcome of that was a day of blanking and pushing me away, and as we lay in bed last night, my gf was on her laptop booking flights to Oz again, actually asking me for tips on airlines and routes etc. to which I replied saying I didn't want her to go and didn't think it was the right choice, so I didn't want to help her - to which she came back that I was being nasty (?) and that I helped my ex wife when we separated a few years ago by buying her things for her house (yes, that's another story) so why wouldn't I help her... again the ex wife comparison. Anyway the gf had no intention of actually booking flights I suspect, but was testing and testing me to see my reaction.

With my validating/non-invalidating hat on, I can see that my gf feels intense emotion around my ex, and finds it so hard to deal with that when she "pretends" to search and book flights to Oz it gives her some relief perhaps because for that short time she has taken the pressure off herself by finding a way out of the situation, even though she has no intention of actually following through with it.

So maybe me being more validating would help here. I'm going to try and steer us towards couples counselling when I talk to her later, with the hope that may lead her into some 1-1 counselling. eastofeast you said you'd already been this route though and it didn't work out - any tips/lessons from that you can give?

[Rodders]

I can identify with multiple parts of this post.  First and foremost, my uBPDgf and I tried blending our families about 1 year into dating.  She has a 20 year old daughter and a 18 year old son (I highly suspect her daughter is BPD and most definitely narcissistic).  I have a 12 year old daughter and a 14 year old son.  They were all 4 years younger when we merged households.  I discovered very painfully, with many police calls to my house, and with quite a few therapy appointments, that I was living with two people (my BPDgf and her daughter) that most definitely both have some kind of personality disorder.  I am still dating my GF, but she lives in her old house that she rented out while we attempted blending our houses.  We had a very ugly ending to our blended house project.  I will not live with her, or her daughter, until both of them get help.  I have made this clear to my GF.  They were a team that constantly had each others backs.  GF's daughter was very disrespectful to me on a daily basis for 3 years straight, and my GF did nothing to correct her (EVER).  She actually would justify her daughter's disrespect by saying I was too hard on her.  All because I cut her no slack as she would constantly sneak random thug boys she met online into my house in the middle of the night, constantly had drugs coming in and out of my house, repeatedly told me to "F" off any time I asked her to clean up after herself or if I asked her to do anything for that matter.  She ended her time in my house by assaulting my son (yes, I pressed charges on her) when I asked her to please show more respect around the house.  My GF will defend her assault on my son to this day saying it was my fault for being so hard on her.  It is insane how neither of them (my GF or her daughter) own anything. 

My GF also hates my ex-wife.  Really has no reason to other than the fact my ex is not fond of her and some of the experiences our children have witnessed in my house due to my GF and her daughter's instability. Also, my relationship with GF started and was kind of the catalyst for my divorce.  So my ex does not care for GF and probably never will.  I can't really blame her.  But my GF holds it against me and wants me to shun my ex in her honor.  I do not have a close relationship with my ex.  We co-parent and that it is.  That is still too much for my GF most of the time.  She literally wants to know whenever I have communication with my ex, and she needs to see the exact texts or emails so she can see for herself.  If I ever has to bring my ex up for some reason (plans with kids, events, etc.), she immediately puts her appearance or clothes down.  Uses very harsh words like slut, whore, skank, etc.  I have told my GF a number of times if she talks about my kids mom like that in their presence we are going to have a problem.  I will not allow it.  So far she has respected that.  My GF has no filter or care for anyone or anything but herself when in the midst of a BPD episode, and it is frankly quite scary because ANYTHING can set it off. 

Your last sentence hits home hard strugglingBF - my gf is on the face of it compassionate, caring, kind, thoughtful, but when she is in an episode that all goes out of the window and she can be mean, spiteful, hateful and VERY un-empathic to my feelings/needs.
It seems that ex wives/gfs are a common issue in BPD relationships - is there any way that this can NOT be a problem I wonder. Me and my ex wife have 17 years of history and a shared beloved son - yes she wronged me in many ways and she herself has narcissistic traits, but after being close to someone that long there is still a fondness there that will never go away. Besides I'm not the kind of person to hate anyone else, as my gf wishes I hated my ex. And for the sake of my son I want that relationship to be positive, but that itself will cause controversy with my BPD gf. It's an absolute minefield.

What form of help would you need your gf + her daughter to get before you tried blending families again? How far along are you with getting them towards that help?

[strugglingBF]

Rodders, pretty much everything you have posted about you GF and her dealing with your ex is SPOT ON with my experience.  My GF will even call me 3 minutes after I pick my kids up from my EX's house to make sure I am not conversing with her, or that I wasn't invited inside (I have never been invited inside, I sit in the car and let me kids come to the car, I don't even walk up to her door).  Regardless, she can't handle it.  If I attend a doctors or dentist appointment for my kids with my ex, my GF has to text me the entire time...are you sitting next to her in the waiting room?  are you talking to her?  what about?  If the appointment takes too long (in my GF's opinion), she will get angry and ask me why the appointment isn't done.  Quite honestly, I think my ex is partially uncomfortable around my GF since I cheated on my ex with her.  I'm sure my ex is a little embarrased, angry, awkward, etc. for a reason.  But it is all evil in my GF's eyes.  Even a neutral facial expression from my ex is considered bitchy.  There is absolutely no winning for me, and my GF absolutely doesn't care about how this affects me at all...the balance of being a good parent, a good co-parent, and a good BF.  I am literally put in no-win situations with my ex all the time.  My anxiety level goes through the roof anytime an event is coming that I know I have to deal with my Ex. 

With regards to living with my GF's daughter, I have made it clear actually that will never happen.  I refuse to live with her daughter ever again.  Her daughter is much worse that my GF, because I believe she has multiple personality disorders.  She is an absolute nightmare to deal with.  She stresses my GF out daily, so my GF is always a hair away from an explosion on me.  That is not a good dynamic when already dating someone with BPD.  That part is entirely out of my control.  Her daughter is 20, and should be eventually getting a place of her own.  My fear, and what is almost an absolute, is that her daughter will fail on her own and need to move back in with mom.  She can't hold a job because she doesn't get along with people very long, she has dropped out of school, dropped out of nursing program, she spends her money as quick as she makes it, she has totaled 3 vehicles the last of which was a DUI related incident (still waiting for her court date), she has very unstable relationships with everyone she is close to...I could go on and on.  I will not risk moving in with my GF until she shows some stability on her own.  Hell, her car insurance payment alone is about to go up to $400 per month.  That is almost a rent payment.  How is someone with that kind of situation, and who may never carry a steady job or a professional job, ever going to make it on their own.  So that is the situation with GF's daughter.  She also needs professional help from a behavioral therapist, so that would need to be active with some kind of results I can observe.  GF's daughter is a danger and has physically attacked me, her mom, her father, and now my 13 year old son.  Police were involved with 2 of the 4 incidents. 

With regards to my GF...realistically, if she doesn't agree to go to therapy at some point (with me or by herself) and work on her internal problems and troubles, I most likely will not share a house with her again. The negative side of her splitting is most frequently directed at my son, who is about as friendly and easy going as they come.  She constantly calls him a nerd and a wuss (he likes video games and is in band) to me, she doesn't say that to him.  He is not a sports kids, and that bothers her because she was a star athlete (in high school) and she connect physical or sports achievements to worth as a person (maybe because her biggest accomplishments in life were in high school sports...idk).  Toward the end of her time in the house with me, she targeted my son almost daily with something ridiculous and made him feel uncomfortable in his own home.  Couple examples...if he wore the same sweatshirt 2 days in a row she would be all over him (what 11 year old boy doesn't wear things more than once?).  She also once told him to stop coming downstairs to get milk or water, and to take a large cup up to his room so he doesn't have to keep coming down (this one actually caused a HUGE fight because I snapped on her.  She was mean and made him feel like he wasn't welcome on the 1st floor.  I have zero patience for that kind of behavior from her and will not tolerate it.  I have story after story of her singling out my son.  I could write all day. 

I could be fighting a losing battle her, but I do love my GF very much so it is hard to just call it quits.  I do realize it may come to that if for no other reason than me just wanting a healthy relationship where I feel loved, heard, cherished.  Who wants to live a life of tip-toeing forever?  I wonder what long term effects the anxiety of dating someone with BPD will have on my health.  The tips and tools on this website are helpful and do work in many cases.  But when you are dating a BP it is like you always have to be "on".  It can be very hard to let go and relax because you constantly have to scheme for what may come up out of nowhere.  I also worry about what kind of relationship example I am setting for my kids.  They witness her behavior all the time.  Am I teaching them that this is what you should put up with from your future spouse?  All kinds of worries in my head constantly.

Discovering the reality of my GF having BPD almost makes it harder to call it quits.  It makes me cut her more slack because i know some of it is out of her control.  She was dealt a crappy hand both in her brainworks and in her childhood.  Her dad and her were very close and her dad wanted nothing to do with her when she got her first boyfriend.  Her mom and dad did not attend most of her sports games either.  Her dad also made a very powerful comment to her when she was a teenager that she will recount to me all the time to this day.  They were on the beach one day and her dad asked her why her chest is not developing like her cousins.  Her cousin must have been well-endowed.  Her dad was also an alcoholic and dragged her along to the bar throughout her childhood, so she witnessed very young grew to think going to the bar and getting drunk is how you have fun as an adult.  I would not classify my GF as an alcoholic, but once she starts she typically doesn't stop when we do go out.  An alcohol has a explosive effect on BPD behaviors she is already susceptible to. 

Sorry, that is long winded.

[eastofeast]

Well, we certainly are all in the same boat, aren't we? Although I suppose that my place on the boat is a little bit different from the rest of you, now that I'm looking at it all from a different viewpoint (maybe that of the lookout guy up the mast, seeing a bit further over the horizon!)

So, about the counselling...

Firstly, let's just stand back for a moment and make the rather harsh but also necessary observation of how incongruous it is that you've just moved in together and that in what should be the honeymoon period you are already talking about seeking arbitration. I'm only wise after the fact. Within the first few months I had friends telling me that it made no sense to be dealing with such things so early on, but of course I persisted, because of my feelings. So of course I have to respect your reasons for wanting to persist, because those familiar feelings are still with me even now.

Secondly, I have to point out that we were quite a long way into the relationship when we started with the counselling, and that we had already had enough crises to provide years' worth of plot-lines for a soap opera. We started in September/October last year, a couple of months or so after one of the most dramatic periods. I had been out of the flat for four weeks during July, had gone back for one week, after which the controlling behaviour started again, and within another week I was out again (this time for just another week or so). At that point (which would have been mid-to-late August) we agreed that there was no way to make the thing work without some kind of outside help. But as I mentioned earlier, I had already been doing some individual counselling, while she had done nothing to follow up on an arrangement to start some therapy of her own after having taken sick leave from her job. Bad signs there already that she didn't have the will or the courage to face her demons, and that it was all going to be about projecting them onto me.

The first two or three sessions seemed to go quite well. She talked about her childhood, cried and showed her vulnerability, and I was reasonably optimistic that it was going in the right direction. But then as we got further in, the sessions very often degenerated into slanging matches, with petty accusations being thrown around the room. I'm certainly not claiming to be completely blameless in that, because obviously I'm human and have my own sensitivities and we all now how the situation starts to make even the most rational person crazy. So, yes, I probably did end up behaving irrationally sometimes. Just the provocation of the groundless accusations. I also, in all honesty, got quite angry with the counsellor sometimes, because I was sure (without knowing all the "technical" details that I do now) that it was so blatantly obvious that she (my ex) was the one who really needed the help. I felt that it took far too long for the counsellor to realise that she was being manipulated into taking my ex's position. I understand about the transference and all the rest, but I really did end up feeling sorely misunderstood a lot of the time. It didn't help that the counsellor was a woman, and I did feel sometimes like they were ganging up on me, the perfidious male. I know that sounds a bit babyish, but unfortunately that's just how it was for me sometimes.

I personally think that the counsellor should have been far more forceful about telling her to own up to what it was that was wrecking the relationship, and that she should have been pointing me in the right direction (for instance to this group, obviously). Look, my ex spent five years (or so she told me) doing therapy in the past, long before meeting me, still occasionally consults the same therapist, and she's still going through the same distrustful and manipulative behaviour in a relationship. That says to me that none of it has really got to "the bottom" of anything, and that she either needs to do some very specifically targeted "hard" therapy, DBT or whatever, or... she needs to be honest with herself and everyone else and stop trying to have "serious" relationships with men, because like that it's never ever going to work. Gotta agree with @strugglingBF that there's a point where you just have to draw the line. Deep inside me I feel quite cheated in that sense, but at least I'm not as angry now as I previously was about it.

My final observation (and I will probably never know whether I'm right in believing this) is that my ex pulled the plug on the counselling at the point when the counsellor was starting to understand what was really going on. I went to see the counsellor two (or maybe three) times on my own at the end, and it was only at that point that she said to me that she thought we were looking at BPD. I hadn't heard anything about BPD up until that point. Too little too late, in my opinion.

I think that I already knew more than enough about BPD by the end, but just didn't know the name of it, or that so many other people were on the receiving end of it, beside me. So don't assume that couple counselling is going to sort it out. Don't even assume that your counsellor is going to recognise what it is immediately. That was certainly very frustrating for me.

I suppose that it's a problem of awareness to a great extent. The more that this condition gets talked about, and the less stigmatising it is to admit to it, the easier it will be for those of us on the other side to help our loved ones to build the connections and strategies that they need to get over/through/past this thing. There's so much talk about bipolar disorder, autism and Asberger's, but far from enough about this one.

Soo... Be firm, everyone, in your understanding of what it is. YOU are not wrong!

I could write more and more and more about the counselling and everything else, but I am getting thrown out of the office by the cleaners

[eastofeast]

I just want to row back a little bit from a couple of things that I said, and state that I don't for one minute think that our counselor was being unprofessional in any way. She probably did recognise BPD quite early on and was well aware of the abusive behaviour from talking to me individually in one of the early sessions, but I do think that she could have been more explicit, certainly with me at least, about what it was.

Also, the "two females ganging up" feeling is no doubt wrong in principle, but it was a real thing that I felt at times. I guess that that is perhaps a feeling that comes along quite inevitably sometimes, and presumably just as likely to happen in a context with two men and one woman.

[strugglingBF]

Funny, my joint therapy appointment never mentioned BPD.  I don't think they can mention it in couples counseling even if they suspect it.  Or maybe they know it would not be wise.  Or both maybe.  Seems to me like that kind of discussion would take place only with the person suffering from it in a controlled environment (solo therapy).  I also don't know how early on a therapist would tip the person off to the suspicion unless they were absolutely sure.  Even then, when do they pull that trigger knowing that the workability of the client may total change after broaching the subject.  This is all speculation.  I do know that the moment my (used to be our) therapist knew that my GF was not coming in for the appointment, she immediately started giving me tools and books on the subject.  And a good part of our sessions moving forward were centered around it.  I didn't need a formal diagnosis, I could take the hint.  Nor did she ever officially diagnose her.  Again, not needed.  Coincidentally, our therapist's specialty is behavior therapy and she has a ton of experience working with BPD.  From my understanding, not all therapists know it well.  And the moment I started reading Stop Walking on Eggshells I did not feel alone anymore, or crazy, or lost.  My world started to get a little more grounded.  Even with the tools, my experience hasn't changes.  BPD episodes are thrown at me with such frequency it is hard to handle them all.  The last couple months have been the worst of the past 5 years with her.  I told my therapist once that I feel like the only firefighter in a town of houses constructed of gasoline soaked houses where everyone walks around with matches on the bottom of their shoes.  Kind of strange, I know.  But it is like there is alarm after alarm, fire after fire, and only one of me because we all know that fighting this battle is a one person job.  Family, friends, they don't really understand unless they have dealt with someone themselves.  And they certainly don't want to put the time and effort into understanding this sickness in order to relate to you.  All they think is...what the hell is he doing, why is he putting up with that, why isn't he pulling the plug.  This board helps tremendously, but I cannot bring this website up when the $h!t hits the fan. 

[eastofeast]

Funny, my joint therapy appointment never mentioned BPD.  I don't think they can mention it in couples counseling even if they suspect it.  Or maybe they know it would not be wise.  Or both maybe.

I guess that's probably true enough, but I suppose that what I'm thinking by now is that there is some kind of duty of care to point the person on the receiving end in the direction of something that will help.

Seems to me like that kind of discussion would take place only with the person suffering from it in a controlled environment (solo therapy).  I also don't know how early on a therapist would tip the person off to the suspicion unless they were absolutely sure.  Even then, when do they pull that trigger knowing that the workability of the client may total change after broaching the subject.  This is all speculation.  I do know that the moment my (used to be our) therapist knew that my GF was not coming in for the appointment, she immediately started giving me tools and books on the subject.

Fair comment, again. What you say makes perfect sense. Getting fixated on BPD could freeze the dialogue completely. Anyway...

The bottom line is that I'm just feeling very relieved, guys, to be on the outside of it all. Very very sorry to have lost her, sorry that she's probably going around demonising me, but at the same time I just don't think that what I thought I had at the very start was ever really "there". I recently got back in touch with one of the friends that I semi-lost over the last year and a bit, and she described my feelings about getting back together as a mirage. Yes, of course that's true.

And lastly...

Family, friends, they don't really understand unless they have dealt with someone themselves.  And they certainly don't want to put the time and effort into understanding this sickness in order to relate to you.  All they think is...what the hell is he doing, why is he putting up with that, why isn't he pulling the plug.

True, but what is a friend if they don't try to understand you, even without having their own personal experience? One important thing that living with this condition does for you is that it really does teach you who your true friends are. I've got a handful of people who stood by me, and a couple who have become good friends in the aftermath, but some people disappointed me a great deal. The people in the former category are GOLD, and I hope that I will be able to stand by them whenever they need me.

[Reggie55]

This sounds too familiar to me...

I have no real answer to offer unfortunately.  I went through the same situation. 

In terms of giving space, I tried a bunch of approaches and nothing worked.

As for affection, if I made the first step it would freak her out.  If I didn't make the first step it would freak her out as well.  And if she told me to leave and I'd actually leave, she'd blame me for leaving.

I like to think I'm a reasonably smart guy but this was in a different league.

[eastofeast]

As for affection, if I made the first step it would freak her out.  If I didn't make the first step it would freak her out as well.  And if she told me to leave and I'd actually leave, she'd blame me for leaving.

Very true. Damned if you do, and damned if you don't. Damned if you stay, and damned if you leave.

I'm pretty sure that I need to read up a LOT on co-dependency :~/

[strugglingBF]

What you two are describing is "no-win" situations.  Lord help me I have dealt with so many no-win situations.  My GF will give me two options to various things all the time.  One which will make her happy (but compromises what she knows I want to do, or I should do) and another that will make her angry and probably come with other painful consequences.  Both result in my hating my life and situation in different ways.  So you choose the lesser of two evils.  I have compromised who I am and my happiness so many times in order to keep the peace or not push her further.  I am just now starting to set healthy boundaries.  Funny thing is she constantly calls me selfish and says I put myself above her.  Meanwhile, I have thousands in credit card debit due to her "trying out careers" while I paid for everything for her and her kids because their father is a deadbeat and doesn't pay child support.  I literally put myself in $20k of credit card debt just to make ends meet while she was not bringing in any income, and it is not like we were living large.  Now she is doing well in her career and making a good income.  Do you think she circles back and helps me with all the debt I have?  Nope, and I am not the kind of person to ask for it.  No, I get told almost daily how I only care about myself and am stingy with money (which I am right now because I am working to get out of debt).   

[strugglingBF]

It sucks because you love them, but in order to do so you have to feel like crap in the process.  Then when you discover it is BPD, it makes it even harder to pull the plug.  I know life goes on, but if I quit on my GF I will forever wonder what will happen to her.  I know she will go back to her self-destructive ways.  She is terrible with money, she makes poor decisions with men when single, she will drink a ton which negatively enhances everything.  You feel almost a sense of duty after discovering BPD.  Like having a spouse with a terminal illness.  Sure, life would be easier to move on without them...but you love and care for that person.  My GF would be a mess without me (not trying to toot my own horn).  I just have some strengths that she doesn't have.  Quite frankly she was a mess when I met her.

At the same time, I dream about having a GF that actually thinks about me.  I don't mean all the time, I am just talking thinking about me in general.  Looks for ways to lift me up and improve my day, Compliments me, Initiates physical intimacy, etc.  Life is short.  Why do I want to spend it with someone that doesn't appreciate me?  Someone who blames all their problems on me.  Someone who accepts no responsibility for who they are, their actions, or where they are at in life. 

It is an emotional sea-saw dating a BPD.

[Turkish]

  I know life goes on, but if I quit on my GF I will forever wonder what will happen to her.  I know she will go back to her self-destructive ways.  She is terrible with money, she makes poor decisions with men when single, she will drink a ton which negatively enhances everything.  You feel almost a sense of duty after discovering BPD.  Like having a spouse with a terminal illness.  Sure, life would be easier to move on without them...but you love and care for that person.  My GF would be a mess without me (not trying to toot my own horn).  I just have some strengths that she doesn't have.  Quite frankly she was a mess when I met her.

Is this the dynamic of a healthy r/s though, or one that is more "daddy- daughter" in nature? As my T told me, "there's nothing wrong with being a Rescuer." It does, however, have a price.

[once removed]

validating is really only one part of the equation. it has a time and place.

the most important skill when dealing with a partner with BPD traits is listening with empathy: https://bpdfamily.com/content/listen-with-empathy

validating the valid actually becomes much easier when we are able to do this.

simply, your partner makes dramatic bids for your attention. gets mad if she doesnt get the response she likes.

trying just to validate that can be inherently invalidating, because its a little like trying to make the problem go away, when the point is more about your attention, her needs, which she sucks at communicating, and the point may about feeling heard and seen and cared for.

have you ever asked her what her beef is with your ex (preferably in a time of calm, and when she brings it up) and just listened?

[strugglingBF]

I have asked her what her beef is.  She says she doesn't like that my ex doesn't look at her when they do cross paths at my kids functions.  She doesn't look to talk to her either.  She is distant and will not make eye contact.  I know my ex doesn't like her, not only for me cheating on her with my GF but also for the instability she has brought to our kids' lives.  My GF has reached out to her via text a few times with nice gestures (inviting her to our kids first 5k run which took place on my parenting time, offering to help her get a good deal on a new furnace because my GF has connections in that field).  She doesn't respond to my GF's texts.  That bothers her as well.  I know my ex...she doesn't move on or forgive easy when people wrong her.  She will probably never like my GF, and I am not sure I can blame her.  It is tough because I cannot make my ex acknowledge my GF's existence or respond to her texts.  I have not control over it.  But my GF wants to hold me accountable for my ex's actions and wants me to take harsh action against the mother of my kids in her honor.  Is it not a comfortable place to be.  And I frankly think my GF needs to grow up and get over the fact my ex doesn't like her.  Neither of us has control over it, and it is immature to hold me accountable and ask me to take negative actions against the mother of my children.