I wouldn’t want my daughter married to an adulterer

[Enabler]

This is a continuation of a previous thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=339747.30

I’ve seen this question posed many times and it’s tricky, well it’s not tricky in many respects, it’s simple, I wouldn’t want my daughter married to a man who was an adulterer. But at the same time I would want my daughters to have the insight and judgement to make the best possible choices at the time given the context of their individual situations. I would teach my children that life isn’t simple and chocolate box, relationships can be complicated and not pan out like our blueprints. What I might want for my kids might be my blueprint, but it’s what they want which is important. I would support my kids in the choices they make.

[formflier]

I would want my daughters to keep their vows and continue to take action to preserve their marriage.  Said another way I would not want them to initiate the divorce, I would want them to continue taking action to expose wrong doing and "force a choice". 

They wouldn't control whether their spouse choose the marriage or not.  They only control their choices.

That's very different that "sitting and taking it".

Best,

FF

[ct21218]

What if the choice is for the spouse to have their cake and eat it too?  Stay in the home and continue the affair for years?  That's putting someone else in charge of ones own happiness.   I know I wouldn't tolerate that.  There is bound to be major tension and the kids grow up in a totally dysfunctional atmosphere.  They see normal as a couple that lives together and mom goes out and does her own thing.  There's no unity in the relationship.

[Enabler]

FF... that’s what I wanted to write.

CT, you asked what I wanted for my daughters not what I would support. I would support (different to endorse) my daughter no matter what. That support might not come in the form she might want, it could come in the form of educating her about the choice she has made and how to improve the situation she is in given the choice she has made.

Just because I stay and stand, does not mean that I condone or endorse. My happiness is not in the hands of my W, that would be foolish. I can and in fact am happy all by myself. I would like to see my wife happy, happy with me, happy with the kids, however I don’t derive my sole source of life satisfaction from my wife’s acknowledgement of my attempts to make her happy.

[Gemsforeyes]

Hi Enabler-

You’re not likely to appreciate what I’m about to say.  Sorry about that, but my exH was a serial cheater, only I didn’t know because I didn’t “snoop”.  I only knew about the time shortly before we married and he was so racked with guilt, I thought he’d never do that again.  The joke was on me.  I married a man I didn’t trust, so I basically became aloof... tho’ I defined myself as trusting.  He had NPD (I recently learned).  I knew I could not and would not try to control an adult man’s behavior.

So for 19 years I allowed myself to be emotionally abused.  I didn’t know that either because he didn’t yell.  He had a big voice; he didn’t need to yell.  And he was unfaithful.  And I was loyal to my vows and he and all his friends described me as the “perfect” wife. 

Then one night  I guess he decided he wanted to start bringing his women into our marriage home so he threw me across the room and into a door.  That night he did YELL at me when he screamed “YOU BETTER NOT BE CALLING THE COPS”.  I quickly hung up the phone, but they came anyway and arrested him.  My marriage ended that night.

My opinion (from experience, mine and 2 friends) is that often when men cheat, there’s a whole lot more abuse happening than the cheating.  A whole lot more cruelty.  I never told a soul the words he said to me during the years I was with him. 

And now, 8 years later, my nightmares have returned again.  I hear echoes of his voice in my head again... following me around my house across the country with his big voice demanding “when are you going to do THIS?”... waking me from a Sunday nap telling me “you’re not being productive, get UP!”... hundreds of demands and lies.  Too much to explain here.

So when you state in no uncertain terms that you’d encourage your daughters to “keep their vows”, you may be helping to  kill their souls in the process. 

And having a wife you cannot hug because an embrace could be dangerous, isn’t such a great thing to model either.

Warmly,
Gems

[Enabler]

Wow, that sound pretty damn heinous. I can very much see the similarities and you're right, the entitlement to have an affair and act inappropriately with other men is just the tip of the iceberg with regards to the abuse. EnablerW used to be quite handy when we first met and probably I'd say for the first couple of years... then lets just say I stood up for myself and it stopped. Of course the physical stuff stopped, but her inner anger didn't go away, she just upped her other modes of getting at me... more covert ways, more deniable ways. I am in no way doubting or minimising what she has done and is doing (or minimising what an affair in my daughters marriage) would mean and likely result in. I'm in no way suggesting that someone (myself included) should stay in a situation which is dangerous physically or mentally. Taking action to place physical or emotional boundaries to prevent physical or mental abuse is of course absolutely necessary and imperative, and I would of course advise my daughter to do the same. However, you can do all of these things without dissolving the marriage. I currently do not fear for my safety (I have toyed with the thought of being bludgeoned in the middle of the night with a candlestick holder by her) and emotionally I am shielding my heart and head with knowledge (about BPD) and confirmation of my own reality (to dispell the fantasy I now know I was living in).

My W has the opportunity open to her to change should she choose to. Currently she is choosing not to. That doesn't mean that I should remove that choice for her. My duty to my marriage is to not allow her back into the intimate marriage until she has chosen to change. If my W was male and I was likely to get custody of the kids, would I have asked her to leave the family home by now? Very much so... but would I be petitioning for a divorce? No.

Enabler

[formflier]

With regards to "having your cake and eating it too".  I would want my daughter to "remove the cake" or "set higher standards" to get the cake.

One of those standards would be  "not eating it to".

If there is no "verifiable repentance", no "cake" from my daughter.

Said another way, there should be no way for the "cheating spouse" to have both.

That can be done without divorce.

Best,

FF

[ct21218]

FF, I didn't necessarily mean sex from both.  I meant staying in the marital home and having financial stability and having the affair. 

[ct21218]

And as far as your happiness enabler, I agree that you are responsible for your own happiness, but your behavior belies this.  You are scrutinizing her WhatsApp activity, worried about what your friends are hearing, etc.  You certainly seem on edge about what she is doing and may underestimate how it's affecting you.

[Enabler]

Fair point CT, my existence could be happier for sure, hence why I'm not apprehensive at all about a life post EnablerW, but I wouldn't say it's currently detrimental to me existence. As much as I was eroded by other things which have now stopped eroding me (because I now understand them), I am now being eroded by the compunction to verify my own reality which feels like an unnecessary chore. Life could be considerably simpler for sure... but how many people do we see on the legal or recovering boards, post their big divorce finale, struggling with co-parenting issues or ongoing drama from their ex. To suggest I will live an infinitely happier existence out is like suggesting you'll be safe from a tornado if you can just find an RV to hide in.   

[formflier]

FF, I didn't necessarily mean sex from both.  I meant staying in the marital home and having financial stability and having the affair. 

Nor did I.

I would hope my daughter would not in any way fund or "enable" a cheating spouse's activities or living arrangements.

That can all be done without divorce and with an "open door" for reconciliation, should this notional spouse choose to walk a different path.

Best,

FF

[formflier]

To suggest I will live an infinitely happier existence out is like suggesting you'll be safe from a tornado if you can just find an RV to hide in.   

Nice analogy. 

I'm totally stealing this and going to use it in the future. 

Best,

FF

[Enabler]

Copyright granted for life

[empath]

I understand the desire to avoid the emotion-laden drama of pushing toward divorce and the reticence to do anything to rock the boat. The primary reason that my h decided to move out was because I continued to have boundaries that reminded him that he had done wrong. He would run up against those daily. There was also the church issues that would remind him, and we would talk about those regularly. I saw my role as just to hold the boundaries to keep myself peaceful and engage as much as I could. I couldn't pretend like things were okay or normal.

Because we are still married, I'm not required to communicate with him about our d15 and her therapy, and she doesn't have to have any unsupervised time with him. Those were her worries.

[Notwendy]

There are other ways besides divorce to not enable her lifestyle- affair and husband who takes care of all the home duties.

How about you go out sometimes? I don't mean an affair but just do something for yourself? She can watch the kids. Go to the gym, or a movie, or out with some buddies. I know you are dedicated to the kids, but you aren't her nanny while she dates. She can also do the dishes too. Maybe it's time to say - OK, Thursday is your night out, but Wednesday is mine.

You can make her responsible for the divorce proceedings, but she can also  be responsible for her affair. Parents just can't run out and have a date- they have to find a reliable sitter. You don't have to be her convenient sitter.

[Notwendy]

I grew up with this kind of "uneven" responsibilities. Basically- Dad= 100%, BPD mom = 0%.

It would not have worked with 50-50, as she was too disordered. But her position in the family was more like spoiled teen than adult. She did what she wanted.

The topic of divorce came up often, as she made threats. Even as a kid, I asked Dad why he didn't divorce her. He replied that she'd get custody- in his time he was correct.

I agree with him staying when we were small and unable to take care of ourselves. She's too disordered to have that responsibility. By my teen years, I wished they would. I had no clue about adult relationships or the difficulty with divorce. It was teen age thinking- not a thought out wish. I just didn't want to live with her and the drama. Had they divorced, I would have spoken up to the judge.

We kids grew up, my parents stayed together.

My father was a good, solid, moral man. I know he felt obligated to take care of her. He truly feared what would happen to her if she was on her own. I think he loved her too,  but it was a difficult marriage and I know he also suffered in it. Had he divorced her, I would not have blamed him.

I learned that one doesn't discard a marriage where there are difficulties, but there's a wide range between marital difficulties and abuse. My mother is abusive. I don't expect anyone to tolerate that level of abuse. However, I understood his concern about what would happen to her if he left. We worried too when he passed away but she's grown into her disorder. As an elderly person, she has constant help. It's "normal" at her age.

My father did all he possibly could to make her happy. He wanted her to be carefree and she was and still is. He left her enough money to not be needing anything. He was not a wealthy man. He achieved this by doing without himself and so did we. We didn't lack for the main things, but he wasn't able to help me with college much as her wishes came first.

I grew up with a low self esteem and co-dependent traits. My self worth was based on (futile) attempts to make my mother happy, please others and not think of myself. The focus of my family was on my mother. I wasn't supposed to have needs, just to take care of hers. I wanted my father to love me ( he was the only parent capable of that) and this is what I thought I had to do to be loved.
 

By neglecting your own self and enabling your wife to basically have fun, you are also demonstrating this to your kids.

I hope you will do things for yourself too.

[formflier]

  The primary reason that my h decided to move out was because I continued to have boundaries that reminded him that he had done wrong. 

Perfect example of what I'm suggesting I would want a daughter to do in such a situation. 

Best,

FF

[Cat Familiar]

I grew up with a low self esteem and co-dependent traits. My self worth was based on (futile) attempts to make my mother happy, please others and not think of myself...

I wasn't supposed to have needs

Me too.

My dad was much like Notwendy’s father, though my mother was more self sufficient than her’s.

Dad persisted in carrying on his responsibilities with a good attitude, asking for next to nothing in return.

Like you, Enabler, he would get brutally shoved aside if he tried to give my mom a hug.

This was really heartbreaking for me to see as a young child. My dad was a good, kind guy. This is what I learned about marriage and it didn’t look nice.
 

By neglecting your own self and enabling your wife to basically have fun, you are also demonstrating this to your kids.

I hope you will do things for yourself too.

I suspect that you are trying desperately to not be seen as “controlling” so you just go along with taking all the burden of responsibilities that she dumps upon you without complaint. In that way, she’s got you over a barrel and is able to pursue her pleasures without consequence.

Like Notwendy has suggested, what about you taking an evening to hang out with friends or leaving the dishes for her to clean?

[formflier]

I suspect that you are trying desperately to not be seen as “controlling”

or "abusive"

[Red5]

I suspect that you are trying desperately to not be seen as “controlling”...

...or "abusive"

I’ve read, that when the non goes about the process of erecting boundaries, and as well attempting accountability with the borderline, that the borderline interprets these two elements as follows;

*boundry = control

*accountability = abuse

Perhaps the two could even be interchangeable depending on the dysreglative mood of the borderline at the moment.

Of course, the borderline has extremely ridged boundaries and accountability “control measures” of their own towards the non.

Ebabler, I think you know the story of my own first marriage, spanning twenty one years, three children, to a disordered woman... multiple affairs, a couple of abandonment episodes... extreme emotional betrayal... lots of hurt, spanning about an eleven year period of time.

I stayed in the marriage not only because I valued the vows, the responsibility, and the extreme desire to “stick in there”, and not give up, but most importantly to me, were my three children,  ... I was NOT going to walk away from this dysfunctional marriage, and leave these three children with her, and thusly whom ever ne'er-do-well persona she may have “hooked” her life to, after me... no!

If I’d done that, the curse of her own generational abusive Foo would have continued through our children, and this was unfathomable to me.

So I stayed, it was very costly to me emotionally, mentally... even though I thought I understood what I “thought” was happening.

She finally was overcome with her own “needs”, perhaps selfishness... whatever... and she just walked away one day, she walked away from being a wife, a mother, she just “broke” from the whole “program”, and in doing so, she gave in, finally to the ghosts, the curse, the generational predestined path of her own mother, grandmother, several of her aunts, her half sister, female cousins et-all’... she was following the same script as did all the women in her Foo...

She not only left me, but our three kids, the home we had at the time, the investments of twenty one years of marriage...she went “rouge”... left me for a man whom she better identified with, whom enabled her destructive behaviors, a devil, a destroyer, and I think it was an overpowering self soothing thing to her... she sought a new personal soothing element, it is called, known as meth, and he could provide her with this, so she made her choice,

... as Lot’s wife, she couldn’t resist to “look back”, and she turned into a pilar of salt, all was lost, because her own desires overpowered her...

We sure tried, both of us did, but her inner demons were just too powerful.

Yeah : (

It was tough, and it was a repeat performance from her, it had happened before at year ten of the marriage... she had left, told me “the kids are better off with you”... “I don’t deserve you”... wow,

But she backtracked, and via a suicide attamept, we reconciled... only to repeat the entire scenario all over again eleven years downrange, this time to its destructive finality.

Resulting in me being a single father for almost five years.

I’d do it all over again, my two youngest were spared the generational curse of her Foo, and it wasn’t pretty the “curse”... and my oldest whom is autistic... would have been totally vulnerable, again, unfathomable to even have considered walking away.

You hang in there Enabler, the Good Lord has a plan for you and your family, I believe this includes your wife as well, to what ever ends we don’t know right now.

Stay resolute in your faith and your conviction, and protect those daughters of yours.

I’ll be a bit blunt, your daughters are your responsibility... NOT the “OM”, or whomever stray cat or dog character your wife may drag home one day if you weren’t present... in a post divorce scenario.

Keep posting Enabler, prayers, blessings and strength for you, breast plate, shield, helmet, and sword of knowledge... you will persevere.

Red5

[Notwendy]

Regardless of all my father did to make my mother comfortable and happy- she still sees herself as a victim and how unfair he and all of us have been to her.

This isn't how I saw it, but it is how she sees it.  She got the most of his resources, his time, his attention. She had literally zero responsibilities and accountability.  She could spend her days shopping or doing whatever she liked. She didn't take care of kids, or the house or anything else.


She'd fly into rages and trash the house. We cleaned it up. By my teen years, I was an adult in the house, she got to act like a spoiled teen age girl. Still, she was the center of my father's attention.

Still she believes he wasn't good to her, she's a victim, it's unfair.

I've done plenty of nice things for her, but if I say no to anything, I've never done anything nice from her. I'm  a horrible daughter.

She presents herself to all her friends as a mistreated victim of her horrible daughter. She says I'm abusive. I haven't ever been abusive to her. She's abused me.

Red has it right- boundary= control, accountability =abuse.

Enabler, if you think niceness is going to change how she perceives you - I don't think it's going to work. This is because its impossible to change someone's thinking.

 You know the difference between standing up for yourself and being abusive. You can have boundaries.

[Enabler]

or "abusive"

Yes

[Enabler]

Red... you as ever make some incredibly touching points, you are a special special human being.

Cat and Notwendy, your experiences as kids is invaluable and I’m trying to work out how I can avoid that experience as much as possible for my kids. Your wealth of wisdom and experience is a treasure and I feel so blessed that I have this forum with which you can take your precious time to share them with me. My kids say almost nightly “ are you going out again mummy?” That said, I feel blessed that I’m able to sit here with my kids watching strictly come dancing and have little chats with them whilst mummy goes out and does her thing (58.7% of the nights).

Thank you all for your help xxxxxxxxxxxxx

[Skip]

My opinion (from experience, mine and 2 friends) is that often when men cheat, there’s a whole lot more abuse happening than the cheating.  A whole lot more cruelty.  

This is a really valuable quote.

[Enabler]

Or women, but you’re right, it’s just the tip of the iceberg as to what they believe they are entitled to.

[Notwendy]

Enabler, Red, FF-
You guys are good guys. Like my father. God bless him for all he did and you guys for being dedicated to your kids' welfare. I am way better off because of my father,  and if he left a legacy of co-dependency it is far outweighed by the goodness, values and care he gave me- even with his focus mainly on my mother. He did the best he knew to do at the time with a difficult situation.

You know you are leaving that legacy to your kids too.

However, as an adult, I didn't think he deserved to be treated like he did. I hope that somehow he managed to find some happiness for himself when he could. I don't mean an affair- I'm sure he didn't do that, but he did have colleagues and enjoyed his time with them when he could. He had some hobbies and interests. Once we were grown I think I would have understood if he didn't want to continue being married to her, but I think he was sincerely worried about what would happen to her if he did.

Does one ever really know what goes on between two married people? No. I only saw things from the outside of their relationship.

I think your kids will wish for that you are able to find some happiness too- and I hope you show them that it's OK to take care of yourself- and that they can too. You can have some hobbies, or go out, and do things for yourself sometimes.

[AskingWhy]

Adultery is painful.  Period.  It's a form of relationship abuse, just as emotional and physical abuse.

My uBPD H was married to a uNPD W who left him for a lover after 10 years of marriage.  She took all the children to another state clear across the country and then abused him for CS and visitation.  Everything was on her terms.  She love to see him in pain when she jerked him about on CS and having the children.

All of the children, how adults near 30, are in some form of the NPD or BPD spectrum.  They abuse their father and emotionally blackmail him for favors, expensive gifts and money.

It all started when their mother cheated on their father.  When H married me, I was unaware of his subconscious plan to use me as a punching bag for what his X W did to him.  His adult children are emotionally messes due to this, too.

H's son is mostly homeless due to drug and alcohol addiction; one D is likely uBPD as her R/S are very unstable, and her current BF is a target of bickering and emotional abuse; one D is likely NPD like their M, and has married a passive, kind and gentle codependent man, and has two small children.

Adultery has the result of damaging across generations, taking its toll on the spouse and the children, and then grand children.  That is why FOO are so important in understanding mental illness.

[Red5]

AskingWhy writes...Adultery has the result of damaging across generations, taking its toll on the spouse and the children, and then grand children.

This is very true... the aftershock ramifications of adultery will reach very far, decades even.

Many times when there is a resultant divorce... the perpatrators side... this persons Foo will cease, over time to have anything to do with the biological children... even grandchildren.

This in effect robs these children of a normal familial... legacy type connection... which in itself will cause its own damaging dichotomy.

Children may be subsequently cut off, ostracized from grandparents... aunts - uncles and their cousins...

And over what... one persons selfish act, “me first”, not thinking that by carrying through with such a destructive act, what the far reaching cancerous effects are going to be to their own family, the symbiotic marriage bond agreement, commitment, life long responsibility.

Some personalities are incapable of “putting themselves last”, even for the sake of their own children’s emotional - mental - physical well-being and development...

I seen it happen all the time... even in my own family, and also my ubpd wife’s family.

The biggest life responsibility a man and a woman can undertake is that of conceiving and having a child, children... there is no greater in my mind.

Children are the golden eggs in the basket of our culture... our civilization... our future... but a lot of “people” have no comprehension or even a inkling of understanding of how bloody important rearing children really is.

Quite “frankly” it pisses me off the things so called adults will do for their own selfish conveinence and short term “thrill”... casting aside their parental responsibility.

Kids need security, a safe home, free of danger... a “warm safe bed”... no threat of abuse... food, clothing... a roof that doesn’t leak, structure... and most important a Mom and a Dad, fully functional... aware, and both being morally adept, and as well committed 100% to this family dynamic... this contstruct seems to be more and more a rarity in today’s society.

Maybe I’m just an old school fool, a dinosaur... but I don’t think so.

You only get one shot at raising a child, one chance, then the iron of their character is set, for the rest of their lives.

... and this will be your legacy as their parent, parents.

Hang in there Enabler!

Red5