Here to do some work/journaling about FOO

[kells76]

Hi there, I'm over here from Family Law. I've dropped in before -- it's been a while -- and I need to come back to do more processing.

Through years of therapy, it's become more clear to me that the structure of my parents' marriage is not healthy.

Briefly, my mom survived a lot of severe childhood abuse. I suspect that my dad has always taken the role of "protector" with her. Mom has been in counseling for ~25 years or so. As far as I know, Dad has never gone on his own. When I was at an eating disorder clinic, he would come to the family therapy sessions sometimes, but mostly it was my mom taking me.

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The most recent instance of dysfunctional dynamics happened a month or so ago.

More brief backstory: in early college I had a friend move in with me and my family in my family's home. This was a friend from HS who, the way she told me, had been kicked out by her mom and went to live with Dad during HS. We went to the same college. Early on, Friend needed ED treatment as well. With her mom out of the picture, my parents took her to treatment. She got well and ultimately moved out on her own to finish college, and is now doing great/super stable.

Soon after that, my friend's mom also got herself admitted to the hospital... for an ED. Then, she (the adult mom) asked my parents to move in with them. I can't remember how long she stayed, but it was longer than she'd said. I remember a sense of horror/disbelief, and it was very hard for me to go over there. I remember crying as I tried "explaining" (before I knew about JADE) to my dad that this woman wouldn't respect their boundaries if they didn't give her a deadline to move out.

Anyway, long story short, I suspect that my friend's mom told my parents stories about being abused, and that those stories resonated especially with my mom. I also suspect that my friend's mom is strongly BPD.

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A month or so ago, my DH and I were discussing a possible trip to another city, and my mom suggested that we stay with my friend's mom there. I told my mom I could feel my heart rate rising and I needed to take a break from the conversation. I don't remember very well what happened, but I think my mom kept trying to suggest it. I said I was going to get a drink of water, and when I came back, what I'd be up for was talking about Christmas plans instead. I said I knew my mom was offering because she cared, and (I can't remember exactly) something like "and it's not something I'm able to do". Mom said something like "Well, just remember you can't trust anything your friend says about her mom".

A couple of days later, my dad called me. He said that my mom had been having a hard time. (A year or so ago, she had sent us 3 kids letters saying she was sorry for not being as good a mom as she'd wanted when we were kids, and she was open to talking. I did a couple of times with her, once last year and once earlier this year. Nothing super deep, but I at least had thought it was a good start, and I was able to share with my mom that I took a caretaker role in the family and didn't want to upset people, but that was very hard for me. I thought it went well and she was empathetic.) Dad went on to say that she was sad that none of us had really taken her up on her offer, and that if we didn't take the initiative, she would just "wait and not do it on her own".

To shorten it, I shared with my dad that I thought we had the same goal in mind -- healthy family communication -- though with different rates of getting there, that he wanted us to get there really quickly, and I had a different pace. He didn't blow up or anything. He did end the conversation by saying that "Mom said that she shouldn't have said that you can't trust anything Friend says about her mom; Mom would rather have said "some things" instead of "anything" ". I couldn't keep going after that and just didn't respond.

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So... when my mom is "having a hard time" emotionally (crying easily, depressed, etc), my dad wants to "fix it" -- probably because it's hard for him too. He believes that my mom can't "get better" on her own (even though I see my mom owning more of her "stuff" now versus in the past). This may be because he is married to her and thinks that if after 25 years of counseling she still "has hard times" emotionally, then nothing is ever going to change for her (and thereby him).

Instead of letting my mom have her relationships with us, and try to reach out to us instead of us reaching out to her, I think my dad manages his anxiety and discomfort by trying to get us kids to "tell her she wasn't a bad mom". My dad has even acknowledged that when he was a kid, his dad would tell him to apologize to his mom, if earlier he had "made her upset" or something. So, my dad is doing what he knows.

It also seems like maybe my mom isn't talking to my dad about how the talks with me are going? I thought it was a good start, but my dad's impression seemed to be that "it was practice" or not that deep.

My dad has kept the role of "protecting" my mom and "managing" how she feels. So, she has not really had to do the work herself. I feel dragged into the middle when my dad calls to tell me to talk to my mom and tell her she was a good mom.

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My HW from my counselor, that I skipped last time but need to face sooner or later, is to think about what I want my dad to know about me.

I want my dad to know that I don't think it would be healthy for me, the kid, to try to make my mom feel better -- that I think that I could tell her over and over that she was a great mom, but if it doesn't come from inside, that it will never be enough.

I want my dad to know that I want him and my mom to work with each other, and not bring me -- even though I am an adult -- in to managing their feelings.

I want my dad to know that it was really hard for me when he told me "I'm not going to tell Mom that we had this conversation", because even though he never explicitly asked me to keep it a secret, there was something untruthful going on. I felt really sad that as a kid I thought my dad would never tell a lie or be dishonest, but now it seems like he is OK with being not straightforward if it's "for a good cause".

I want my dad to understand that I am not just being immature about having a hard time with how my friend's mom keeps being involved in their lives, that the whole conflict between me and my mom "about" my friend's mom was probably about something deeper for my mom.

I want my dad to know that I wish he and Mom could grow to be healthier together and change their relationship structure to be better. I wish my dad would be open to going to counseling himself; he was supportive of my mom, me, DH, everyone else in the family doing so.

I would want my parents to know that I kind of resent being "put" in the position of having to be the one to use healthy communication skills with them -- they're the parents and I'm the kid, and I still have that feeling of deep sadness and grief that I have to "be the adult" when we talk.

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I think there is probably more that I would want my parents to know, but that would be really painful to tell them. This is all I can get out for now, so thanks for reading, and I would be open to keep discussing here with you guys.

[formflier]

Kells76,

I see lots of insight and searching your feelings. 

Couple things to clarify.

Do you want to understand your Dad better or do you want him to understand you better?

Does your Dad's reaction matter or is it more important that you get these words out there for him to hear?

When all this talking is said and done, what do you expect to be different?  What do you expect to be the same?

Best,

FF

[kells76]

Hi FF, thanks for stopping by.

Ideally, I would like

(1) for my dad to understand me better -- I would like (in a perfect world) to have experiences with him where he is empathetic: "It really makes sense that you feel that way kells76; I can see how when I ask you to talk to Mom it would make you feel X".

That is closely related to (2) I would like my dad to understand himself better.

Then I would rank at (3) me understanding my dad better. This is likely at (3) because I notice myself feeling resentful when I believe I as the kid "must" use healthy mature communication skills to manage conversations with my dad. I.e., when I perceive that I "have to be the adult" when talking with either parent, I feel angry at the role reversal. So, I feel that when facing the question "Do you want to understand your dad better" -- the kid in me says "Well, what about ME?"

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My dad's reaction matters to me insofar as it's related to his ability to hear me. I think I'm not just in this for catharsis or to "let him have it". I would like communication in our family to be healthier, and I recognize that that goal could mean this is a longer process with progress and falling back. So, if he gets angry because of something I say, on the one hand I know that (assuming I wasn't adding gas to the fire) it isn't my responsibility. At the same time, big reactions can inhibit being heard. Overall, it's 50/50 on "does my dad's reaction matter". I'm not at the side of "write a letter to him and burn it instead of sending it" -- I do want to try in person -- and I'm not at the side of "get it all out verbally to him, come what may". Something middling would be nice.

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It would depend on what it means for all the talking to be done. If I'm realistic, our family structure has been this way for decades. It would/will take a long time for things to change, if they do.

I expect that if I shared with my dad that: I can see he cares about my mom, and that is why I think he asks me to reassure her; that being said, it doesn't work for my relationship with her when he asks me to talk to her. That it would mean a lot to me if he... (here's where I'm not sure of the specifics) didn't remind me to talk with her.
I expect if I shared that with my dad, that he would intellectually understand if I tied it in to our conversation about wanting the same thing (healthy family communication) at different rates. I don't think he would understand why it is healthier emotionally.
I expect that it would feel uncomfortable to him, and that when we all got together, there would be a feeling of tension and discomfort. This would be similar to how things are now.
I expect that I would feel pressure to still meet up with my mom and talk, though that might becoming from inside me (guilt). This also would be similar to now.

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So, if I met with my dad (either phone call or in person), to share with him what I want him to know about me -- that what works for my relationship with my mom is that he not remind me to talk with her -- I expect that he might logically understand my request and try to do it (which would be different from now), but there would still be a heavy sense of "unspoken, unresolved tension" when we're together (which would be the same).

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Ideally I want him and my mom to work on their own relationship with each other.

[formflier]

Lots to think about there.

What if there was a "boundaried" point of view to all this?  Not really a suggestion, but let's just "suppose" a few things and see how it fits/feels.

What if...

"Hey Dad, let's have lunch and talk about us.   I know we both care a lot about Mom, yet somehow our relationship seems to be getting lost."  Then talk about stuff in your world (except Mom) and his world (except Mom).

If he has things to discuss with Mom...he should do that.

If you have things to discuss with Mom...you should do that.

His relationship and your relationship with Mom are going to be vastly different and that's ok. 

If you guys are together as a group, then talk away about anything.  (the whole secret conversation thing seems odd).

I'm sure you Dad means well and wants people to get along, yet once we all realize we only have "half a vote" in our own relationships and then realize we have "no vote" in others relationships, well...it kinda looks futile.

There is an alternative that I'm still trying to put together.  It goes something like this.

"Dad, it sounds like you want healthier communication in our family.  Wouldn't it be best to start with us?  Can we do that?"
 
Last:  I'm very curious about why you and Mom seem ok with going to a T and he doesn't.  That's an interesting dynamic.  Yet he is trying to "get people healthier".   (Do I have this right?)

 

Best,

FF

[kells76]

It is intriguing that when it's just me and my dad out for dinner, or me and DH with my dad, and no "reason" to get together -- just the usual weekly thing or whatever -- then the conversation stays "on the rails". We talk about the kids, my dad's parents & them aging, work, all that stuff that is about me and/or my dad.

A couple months ago DH and I had dinner with just my dad, and he described how his mom (Grandma) has a rigid "I'm right and was wronged by her" view about Grandma's sister. My dad described wanting to have some boundaries about not hearing any more about that conflict, because it wasn't going anywhere and there was nothing new to hear. I mentioned to Dad that sometimes we "do" boundaries (like leaving to get a drink) versus "announce" boundaries, and that maybe that would work for him.

So, we seem to have good enough conversations when there isn't an agenda -- conversations where I end up thinking "hey, that's positive, Dad has some insight about boundaries" or whatnot.

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I suspect that if I don't want my dad to tell me to talk to my mom and make her feel better, then I will need to do it, versus announce it. Maybe one "light" announcement: "Actually, Dad, when you and I talk, I just want to talk about us".

Our T brought up the secrecy thing too, and talked about ways to "un-secret" stuff / shine a light. One, tell my mom in front of my dad that I see the work she's done in counseling and appreciate it; two, just tell my mom that Dad talked to me and wants me to talk to her. Just ideas on how to step out of the "I'm not telling Mom we had this conversation" stickiness.

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I think my dad says (and believes) he wants healthier family communication. I wonder if to him that means that nobody (Mom)  is sad or feeling down. Results-based: if Mom is doing OK, then the communication is healthy. If Mom is sad/depressed, by definition communication must be not going well/unhealthy. Just speculation at this point.

Good point about "if you want healthy communication, let's start with us" idea.

I think there is a difference between "wanting people healthier" and "wanting stable family". I think my dad may want stability.

He and I are similar in that we both have a sense of "if I don't do X, it just won't get done, so I'll do it". I get this more with chores/household stuff. He seems to get that sense when Mom sends the letter to us kids, but "nobody is talking to her", so because he believes Mom cannot follow up and ask, he "must" get us to talk, "or it'll never happen".

I also share a value with my dad of "it's important to do the right thing". My dad may see himself as "the guy who really thinks about it and does what is right". He is not super emotional -- pretty steady -- and because Mom is more volatile, he may not see himself as someone who "needs to work on his emotions".

It is interesting that he may see counseling as "not the wrong thing to do", even good and helpful for marriages (because staying married long term is "the right thing to do"), but maybe because he has somehow figured out how to stay married to Mom for this long, he's got it sorted and doesn't need to go? It's probably a more complicated mindset than at first glance.