March

[kells76]

We were able to take a mini vacation with the kids the other weekend. Had some resources & ideas up our sleeve and got out of town -- don't ask how 

DH & SD14 took a hike together, and SD14 opened up about some stuff she was dealing with. She feels like there are two aspects of her personality, the "introvert reading girl" and "outgoing adventure boy". That sometimes one part gets more "fed" than the other; so now, with the quarantine, she's doing more of the "inside reading introvert" stuff. She said she feels like she has to censor herself when she's with us, so she doesn't say something that might offend us. DH asked if she does that in order to make sure he doesn't feel bad, and she said yes. DH asked if she thinks that's her job, and she said no, so she knows (intellectually) that she doesn't need to emotionally caretake, but she feels like she has to. She wants both parts to be more integrated.

She also said that it's been hard lately because SD11 is having a hard time. SD11, according to SD14, doesn't want to come over or spend time with DH (but still does, just with more "I don't know if I want to go on the trip if my friends can't go with us" type stuff). SD14 said she heard SD11 say that SD11 thinks of Stepdad as her real dad, and DH as her stepdad. SD14 said that there is more going on with SD11 but that SD11 could bring it up if she wants.

SD14 also said that their brother at Mom's house (who is about 7) completely loses it when they come over to our place.

...

A day or two after that on vacation, somehow the topic of camping came up. DH and I are pretty outdoorsy. On weekends when we don't have the kids with us, we sometimes just take off and camp wherever -- rain, cold, anything. The kids know we do this, and we've done this since before DH and I got married. Lots of camping gear/backpacks/tents at the house.

Both kids INSISTED that DH used to hate camping. DH said "that's not true". Kids: Yes it is. DH: no, it isn't. Kids: It totally is. DH: Where are you getting your info? Kids: From Mom. She said that when you guys were married, you never went camping. DH: well, that's not how I remember it. Kids: you hated camping then. DH: we were pretty busy with other things, like working and going to school. It's true we didn't go very much. I remember as a kid going to Yellowstone and loving it, and it was a huge camping trip. I love camping now, too, so does it make sense that I wouldn't love it in the middle? Kids: it doesn't matter.

It's BS like that, coming from Mom/Stepdad, that drives me crazy still. I mean... who is stopping her from camping now? (She has gone once in the last 9 years).

It's tricky because I can easily (now) put together an analogy like: What's your favorite movie? When did you last watch it? Oh, 6 months ago? Well, you definitely hate it. Oh, that's not true, and you've been busy? Well, you haven't watched it in months, so I'm sure you hate it.

IDK, though, because that starts to put their mom in a position of being very wrong, and I don't think SD11 can handle that at all right now. It's hard to find ways to say what's true and shut down stuff that's so obviously false, without pushing into territory that the kids might not be able to process emotionally.

...

A few weeks ago, we were all having dinner, and SD11 said she and her friends had played with a ouija board (note, DH and I come from a Christian background). I think we were both caught off guard and instead of listening to SD11 and validating what we could, we both reacted, and I think it was clear to SD11 from our tone and body language that we did not approve.

Every time since then that DH has picked up the kids, if Stepdad is there, he has been wearing a shirt with a picture of a ouija board on it.

...

Overall March has been more of the covert conflict BS.

It's kind of like both Mom and Stepdad have "given up" on trying to convince SD14 not to spend time with us, and have pivoted all their attention to SD11, who I suspect was starved for attention for many years while the focus was on "golden child" SD14. So now SD11 is eating up all this "We're your advocates, we're your family, we have your back, we support you and truly listen and understand" stuff, that she never really got before. It requires her to "not like" to be with DH and to share that with Mom and Stepdad.

I worry about SD11 and I wish I had the power to get the kids (and us) into family therapy. But I don't, and feeling powerless while watching SD11 get "brainwashed" is really, really hard.

I'm so tired of the PERPETUAL covert conflict about "who is the REAL family, who is the REAL dad, who is the REAL mom, we know you better than you know yourself"  .

I'm tired of Mom's digs about petty  . I'm tired of Stepdad inducing the kids into telling him he's the real dad.

It feels like nothing I would do would make a difference in helping especially SD11 see reality.

All I can think of is to try really hard to actually listen to SD11 and actively solicit her thoughts on the things she likes to do with friends, and then to listen nonjudgmentally. But even that seems like "not enough" to counteract the stupid covert manipulation.

[Radcliff]

Hi kells,

Wow, that sounds tough.  It's clear that you care deeply for SD14 and SD11, and for your DH's relationship with them.  It's hard to see unhealthy behavior going on in another household, and frustrating when those folks are running counter to our values and in a way we feel harms the kids.  You're right that conflict with the kids or trying to convince them of something (even that your DH has always liked camping) is best avoided.  

Concentrate on the things that you can control.  You and DH can model healthy behavior and a healthy relationship.  You can selflessly support the girls and create joyful times.  If you want to go a level deeper and use your relationship superpowers, think about any distortions that the folks in the other household might be putting forth about your DH, and help him demonstrate behaviors with his daughters that are the positive opposite.  For example, my xBPDw's talk track is that I'm controlling.  So whenever I interact with my daughters, particularly when they have decisions to make, I tell them I'm confident they'll make the best decisions for them, it sounds like they've really thought things through well, etc. -- the total opposite of controlling.  It's a "show me don't tell me" thing, though -- it doesn't work to talk about these things usually, you just have to show them.  Doing this helps me invest my energy in a positive direction and feel independent, less preoccupied with my ex's behaviors, because if I think about that, it drives me nuts ;)

RC

[kells76]

Hi Radcliff;

Thanks for your thoughts.

Concentrate on the things that you can control.  You and DH can model healthy behavior and a healthy relationship.

It's funny... intellectually, I know this is true. It's not confusing or surprising or whatnot. Emotionally, though, I must not really believe it? Because I find myself really torn up, wondering if what I'm doing is enough to stop SD11 from going down a road of believing what isn't true and being totally taken in by Mom and Stepdad's "love bombing".

If you want to go a level deeper and use your relationship superpowers, think about any distortions that the folks in the other household might be putting forth about your DH, and help him demonstrate behaviors with his daughters that are the positive opposite.

OK, in this example, the distortion would be that if DH disagrees with an interest of SD11's, or doesn't think it's something healthy, then he is definitely rejecting her as a person, and doesn't really accept her the way that Mom and Stepdad accept her. I think another facet to this that has come up before is that DH "doesn't really listen to their voices" and is "emotionally unsafe/abusive".

We were with just SD11 the other day. We did try asking her about the witches' coven that she had started with a friend, and how that was going, and if they were able to keep it up during the quarantine. SD11 definitely had only one-two word answers and didn't really keep the subject going. I guess that is not surprising given how DH and I have reacted in the past. It may be a slow turnaround.

I think my worry is that "it's too late" and "I missed the boat" on listening to SD11.

it's a "show me don't tell me" thing, though -- it doesn't work to talk about these things usually, you just have to show them.

My mind knows this, and my emotions tell me "it's not enough". I am struggling with feeling powerless and like I contributed to something unhealthy.

[livednlearned]

It sounds like deep-seated triangulation patterns.

Do you see the triangulation in the camping example? H walked right into it and lost.

Ex and step dad are experts at this, it sounds like. They're teaching the kids, who are practicing on you (unconsciously, most likely) and the kids are probably doing this with some success in other relationships too. H seems to be trained to engage in the triangle too, which isn't surprising. I think a lot of us in BPD relationships experienced some familiarity with high and chronic conflict type dynamics. Triangulation is pretty typical of our families of origin.

If you were to take away the words or the topic, there is a transaction happening. The words and the topic hardly matter. It's the transaction or formula or pattern that is toxic. And the pattern is triangulation. I used to think the drama triangle was only for more severe conflict but I think it's for just about any kind of conflict, even if it's seemingly low stakes (dad hates camping).

I think you might see some relief when you and H begin to spot the moves. The girls are learning from mom, trying things out on you and H.

Most of this stuff is unconscious so shining light on it will make them uncomfortable, altho given the dynamics of playing you off each other, they may develop greater respect for you and H when they begin to see that kells76 and dad repeatedly remove themselves from the triangle.

To me, the camping comment is a way for the girls to say, "Mom says you're weak (you camp because kells76 makes you camp). We're wondering the same thing."

H responds, "I've always been a tough guy. Except when I couldn't be. Now I'm a tough guy."

And the girls are like, "Doesn't matter. You just proved mom's point."

I have to work hard on these moments and phrases because SD23 does this to me, too. So take these as jumping off points for suggested ways to reorient the girls away from the triangle.

"Huh. I'm trying to understand why your mom cares about this."

"Seems awkward that mom talks about what I do and don't like."

"That's an odd thing to say. Huh. Wonder why she says stuff like that to you."

Less is more.

For me the key is to bat things away, to use less words, to not allow resentment to build, to not feel emotionally activated, to look for the stinger and step away.

With SD23, I assume that everything she does and says is a function of triangulation. I don't think your girls are like that, but they are learning from a pro how to do this.

SD23 has full-blown BPD traits so she is more chronic with this stuff, and seems to only speaks conflictese. She either feels one-up or one-down and maybe this is an exaggeration but I see her working on being one-up chronically. Causing irritation or resentment or any kind of negative emotion is one-up for her and I was easy bait for most of our relationship. Now that I see the underlying triangulation patterns it's much easier (tho not easy) to remove myself from the game. She is thoroughly confused at the moment because without the game she isn't sure how to interact. Your girls will likely respond better because they are not distressed by the additional challenges of other BPD traits.

If I play the one up/one down game with SD23 then it's over for me because she gets satisfaction just from playing the game. I end up feeling resentment, and my emotional distress is the pay off for her. Just like mom and step dad are going for the same thing (H hates to camp, ouiji board t shirt). They know it irritates you and the girls probably confirm this for them. Mom and dad are predicting your reactions and so far they are batting a thousand.

I imagine it's awful to witness SD11 being influenced by the other parents but I genuinely believe that having no boundaries with adults (which is what it sounds like, and probably gets confused with affection, attention, validation, intimacy, closeness for SD11) is something she senses is ultimately icky and can't be trusted.

Because within that no boundaries relationship, SD11 can't be herself.

That's why validating her is so important. That's one half the battle. The other is making sure that you call the game the way it's being played so that you don't become suckers and lose the respect of the girls.

Also, the game can't be explained to them. It also can't be complained openly about. If you talk about it, they will level up, most likely 

Better to just recognize it and have stock responses for when it's happening.

[kells76]

I've been thinking more about identifying triangles more quickly (and, of course, exiting them).

I think I mentioned in the "virus fear PT denial" thread that I had an insight the other day. Whenever a situation seems to funnel me towards a JADE response, that should be a clue that there's a triangle going on. And/or, if my impulse is to react ("I've got to cut this off now... this demands a response... I can't slow down or let this slide... this needs to get shut down..."), then as well it's probably a triangle.

Couple of questions, as I've been thinking about triangle-exiting responses.

I wonder if saying something like "What would you do if someone made assertions about what you used to like or dislike" would be a triangle-exiting move? I could see it going either way.

Staying in T: it still deals with the content, vs the structure, of what's going on
Exiting T: it does reverse/shake up roles, and isn't necessarily a JADE response

Different scenario, wondering if saying something like "You're triangulating me... please don't" is an entering T or exiting T statement. My gut feeling is that it is an "entering the triangle" statement, though I'm open to discussion.

Staying in T: identifies structure of what's going on
Exiting T: if it's in front of someone else, does seem to "stage the drama" in such a way as to bring others into it.

[I'm finally reading that Lynne Forrest article (https://www.lynneforrest.com/articles/2008/06/the-faces-of-victim/) for the first time. I think panda39 posted a link to it recently -- so good, and the challenge is always for me to stop saying "oh, this person in my life is the persecutor, and that person is the rescuer", and to start taking responsibility for how I embody those roles in my own life.]

[livednlearned]

Whenever a situation seems to funnel me towards a JADE response, that should be a clue that there's a triangle going on.

I read your comment in the other thread about that and it's been super helpful thinking about this for me, too. Thank you!

I wonder if saying something like "What would you do if someone made assertions about what you used to like or dislike" would be a triangle-exiting move? I could see it going either way.

I would strengthen your response, especially at the beginning of changing behavior: "Only I get to know how I feel or don't feel."

Then don't take any new bait that will likely come out, to counter your statement. I had to do this with my son when he was younger and now he uses it. After H told S18, "You'll feel better if you xyz," S18 came to me and said, "Only I know how I'll feel."

Son: Dad says you love the dog more than us.
Me: Only I know how I feel.
Son: You love the dog more than me.
Me: Like I said, only I know how I feel. Please don't tell me how I feel or don't feel.
Son: Well that's what dad says.
Me: What do you feel? What do you believe? Let's start with that.

wondering if saying something like "You're triangulating me... please don't" is an entering T or exiting T statement. My gut feeling is that it is an "entering the triangle" statement, though I'm open to discussion.

My guts says it won't help to draw attention to a word like triangulation. They're kids so they might just hear, "Don't argue with me." They'll feel a door swing shut but that won't help them get to the other side, with you.

What I did, with the help of my T, was to pinpoint the repeating scenarios in which I felt I was allowing myself to be one-downed. Then we worked through the best way to nip that stuff in the bud.

You may have some triangles that you and H have to be on the same page about. I had a few triangle situations that involved me stepping out of the H-SD23-LnL triangle. Whereas I get the sense that you and H are more in a D11/D13-kells76/H-stepdad/biomom triangle.
It could be that whenever the kids start a sentence with, "mom says you" or "step dad says you" that the two of you -- H and kells -- just shrug or laugh or move on. Tough stuff! Or, depending on how important it is, "how did it feel when mom/step dad said that" "I wonder why mom/step dad would say that"

For me there's definitely a "huh, shrug" aspect to a lot of triangle maneuvers and exiting them. I make the decision to not go down a rabbit hole that is not of my choosing. Usually I say how I feel about something and make the sentence short with a hard period at the end. Or I put the question back on the other person, so that they are in the position of taking responsibility for whatever it is that just got started. SD23 is more disordered than your kids so I try to have zero room for error if I can help it.

There are some good tips about in the book In Sheep's Clothing, which is about covert aggression. I don't think the author talks about triangles? I could be wrong. But he does help identify the ways that people prone to chronic conflict work, and I wouldn't be surprised if your step kids are trying out some of that stuff, if only because they're seeing it modeled. There is a bit of a mini-me aspect to having stepkids with a disordered parent. Even SD26, my oldest SD, has some of those moves, and she's wonderful. I just figure she is doing what she saw modeled, and when it happens I handle it. With her, it's much easier.

the challenge is always for me to stop saying "oh, this person in my life is the persecutor, and that person is the rescuer", and to start taking responsibility for how I embody those roles in my own life.

That's how I felt too. Understanding the triangles and learning about covert aggression has made me feel so much more calm and skilled in my relationships with difficult people. The tricky part is when step kids have access to the aggression weapons chest so they will show up armed from time to time.