BPD partner needs constant attention and reassurance

[SchrödingerCat]

My gf and I(M) had been spending 3-4 days together, out of which we spent most of the weekend together, along with Friday and another weekday evening. I always go to her place because she is uncomfortable coming over since I have roommates. Quality time is really important to me, so I try to ensure we spend a few hours of quality time on the days we meet, along with an extended date night every week and an activity(s) on the weekend. But I started to notice that most of our time, especially on weekends, used to be spent either on her feelings or she tried to get my attention through a variety of methods. She wants to do everything together and continuously interact. I definitely would like to do some activities together on the weekend (maybe a hike, shopping, meals, walks), but also explore our own interests and fulfill our personal weekend commitments i.e. catch up with family/friends and chores. I would like to often just be together quietly but do our own activities: I can read, learn something or write my blog (she doesn't enjoy my hobbies) while she can watch a movie or do whatever else she wants, like hike or go outside but I don't need to join her. Because I am not able to quietly read or pursue my hobbies or fulfill my commitments without being asked for attention, I am forced to spend time at my own place away from her to get my hobbies and commitments done. And this time away from her causes more conflict between us, which also makes it hard for me to get anything else important to me done.

How do I set boundaries with her about spending quality time when we meet, but also pursue our own interests and hobbies or just be quiet together without needing constant interaction? How do I not let the attention seeking and her feelings become the predominant method we spend time together? I tried communicating this with her, but in vain.

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PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Cat Familiar]

How to set boundaries about your need for personal time?

Boundaries are for you. They’re not about getting agreement or permission from your partner. Very simply, you just do what you need to do for yourself.
https://bpdfamily.com/content/setting-boundaries

I know that sounds simplistic, but asking her to not be the person she is, is violating her boundaries. She obviously wants and in her mind, needs, a lot of attention and validation. That is characteristic of BPD.
https://bpdfamily.com/content/what-does-it-take-be-relationship

Perhaps when you’re spending time together, you can try to validate her by active listening.  

https://bpdfamily.com/content/listen-with-empathy

[SchrödingerCat]

I guess how do I just do?
As you said, it seems simplistic to do so, and I wanted to look at simple steps to implement this simplistic idea.

My concern is the constant turmoil and arguments when I ask for personal time to do things I need to do, and how to reassure her that it does not mean I want to be alone or I want space from her.
Especially since I visit her on weekends and that is the only way we meet, it is hard to be at her place and still have personal time without turmoil

[Cat Familiar]

You are asking her for time to do chores, catch up with friends and family, read, or write your blog?

Why not say, “I’m going to do X for a few hours. I’ll catch up with you at _____ o’clock.”?

Your reassurances aren’t working; they’re probably adding to the problem. And they’re not truthful anyway. You do want space from her.

People with BPD are good at spotting inconsistencies and deception.

Much better to be upfront and say you need to do something and you look forward to getting together with her later.

And you probably will be much more eager to get together with her if you have time to take care of your own needs.

[SchrödingerCat]

Your reassurances aren’t working; they’re probably adding to the problem. And they’re not truthful anyway. You do want space from her.

I apologize if I sound naive, but I don't seem to have a good sense of a normal or healthy relationship since this is my first.
To understand this and myself better, how am I not being truthful? In my mind, I would be very happy if she wanted to be next to me or even join me while I do any of the things I listed, but obviously she does not have to at all. So in that sense, I am not wanting space from her, but I am sure I am not seeing the complete picture or from her perspective.

Much better to be upfront and say you need to do something and you look forward to getting together with her later.
And you probably will be much more eager to get together with her if you have time to take care of your own needs.

Completely agree with this.
Because of my inexperience and lack of perspective, I am not sure how much time together is enough time for doing things together. Is there a good way to think about this? I often feel bad when I do something for myself and am told that I am not spending enough time on her and the relationship, when I feel I am (but we just end up spending significant part of the time validating her emotions when together rather than bonding, so it probably doesn't feel like we spent enough time together). I want to take into account her needs and requests too, but it never seems to suffice and so I need to draw a "reasonable" boundary.

[Cat Familiar]

It’s good that you are asking questions. Most of us here,who became involved with a BPD partner, had no understanding of a healthy relationship either. Here’s a good overview:  https://bpdfamily.com/content/characteristics-healthy-relationships

How are you not being truthful?
You’d love for her to have a desire to participate in things you enjoy. She doesn’t want to. You still want to do these things. (Totally understandable.) In order to do chores, catch up with friends and family, write your blog, etc. it seems obvious that you’ll have to do that on your own, because apparently she wants your attention constantly to talk about her emotions, which frankly sounds exhausting to listen to.

You still have a need and desire to do some of these very normal things that most people would understand. Because she is unwilling to be quiet and pursue her own interests while you’re together, it’s forced you to go home to get things done.

Yet...you want to reassure her that you don’t want to be alone or you don’t want space from her, when this is exactly what you want, because you need to do things that she’s unwilling to participate in or be quiet so you can accomplish them in her presence.

Can you see how that comes across as if not untruthful, at least misleading? People with BPD spot these inconsistencies quickly and it makes them feel suspicious that you aren’t honest about other things too.

Everyone has different needs for together time as opposed to alone time. This can be a big conflict in relationships. There is no set ratio of what is right. Only you and her know what feels right to each of you as individuals, and it’s obvious that she needs far more of your attention than you’d rather provide.

That also gets into another area. It sounds like it’s not a reciprocal relationship. You are trying to fill an endless need for her. How is she providing for your needs?

[SchrödingerCat]

You’d love for her to have a desire to participate in things you enjoy. She doesn’t want to. You still want to do these things. (Totally understandable.) In order to do chores, catch up with friends and family, write your blog, etc. it seems obvious that you’ll have to do that on your own, because apparently she wants your attention constantly to talk about her emotions, which frankly sounds exhausting to listen to.

You still have a need and desire to do some of these very normal things that most people would understand. Because she is unwilling to be quiet and pursue her own interests while you’re together, it’s forced you to go home to get things done.

Yet...you want to reassure her that you don’t want to be alone or you don’t want space from her, when this is exactly what you want, because you need to do things that she’s unwilling to participate in or be quiet so you can accomplish them in her presence.

Can you see how that comes across as if not untruthful, at least misleading? People with BPD spot these inconsistencies quickly and it makes them feel suspicious that you aren’t honest about other things too.

This was a lovely response and put so much into perspective. Thank you! Yes, I can completely see that, and it did take me a little bit of thinking after reading your response to wrap my head around why I have been untruthful, if not at least misleading. I now feel bad for being untruthful (I really value honesty and directness in myself and others), so trying to process that ...

That also gets into another area. It sounds like it’s not a reciprocal relationship. You are trying to fill an endless need for her. How is she providing for your needs?
I try to make myself independent so that any need she provides is more of an "abundance" rather than a need. IMO, she spends some quality time with me and we have regular date nights, which is important for me. Other than that, she thinks she is providing for my needs by allowing(she thinks supporting) me to do my chores and allowing/supporting me to spend sometime on weekends satisfying my own needs. I do not know what to make of her perspective, especially when me satisfying my own needs often creates conflict between us because it often requires space as you suggested.

[JadedEmpath]

I try to make myself independent so that any need she provides is more of an "abundance" rather than a need.

I can relate to this so much . I don't know how long you have been in this relationship, but from the perspective of someone in a very similar mindset and situation for 9 years now, you may eventually feel some real resentment about giving so much without ever having needs met in return---even if you are very independent & very good with emotional regulation.

Don't spend time explaining or justifying why you are taking time for yourself, because her upset isn't logical to begin with, its emotional. State what you plan to do, maybe briefly why it is important to you that you do it, and then firmly refuse to elaborate or argue. Any guilt or hesitation you show in making these plans for yourself will fuel the anxieties and emotions and insecurities that cause her "neediness" (for lack of a better term) to begin with.

And lastly, for what its worth, in your own mind, do the best that you can to completely ignore the manipulative words or arguments she makes altogether. Not easy, but these behaviors really are just automatic responses that BPD brains have unconsciously developed to protect themselves. They really don't mean anything. The less their intended response is elicited from you, the quicker these unhealthy thought patterns will go away. New attention seeking behaviors will emerge when the old ones no longer work, so stay vigilant. If ever possible, encourage her to seek help to develop healthy ways of thinking, like DBTherapy, so that she can heal rather than finding new attention seeking behaviors over and over.

[SchrödingerCat]

JadedEmpath and Cat Familiar, thank you for sharing your thoughts and experiences.

So it seems that I should just do what I need to do for myself with little or no explanation.
Given that I like to keep myself busy during the weekend and often needs some kind of planning, how do I not make sure that the weekend is not based mostly on her emotions and constant negotiation? What should I think about the fact she thinks she is supporting me to do things important to me by being ok with me taking time to do so?
Additionally, if we end up spending less time together because I do my own things but she doesn't want to join and then she complains about it, how do I handle that? In other words, what should I negotiate and what should I not?

I am sorry for so many questions, but just don't know how to navigate this with so much turmoil and conflict and me feeling guilty and bad.

[Cat Familiar]

If you are changing a long-standing pattern of being with her nearly every waking moment on the weekends, then you’ll need to give her a very brief explanation. For example: “I’m getting behind in my tasks at home and I need to spend Saturday afternoon from noon to five, finishing some projects.”

You can add some affirmative words: “I want to be able to be totally present when I’m with you and it will be good for me to get done with this work.”

People with BPD like to know timeframes, when you will leave and when you will return. You can add something about the future. “Saturday night I’ll pick you up at six and we can go to that restaurant you’ve been curious about.”

If she complains about less time together, don’t JADE about it. Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain—Don’t JADE

You might say something like, “Maybe in the future I can get you to join me in some of my activities.”

It’s on her if she doesn’t want to do things with you. Look at it this way: she’s pressuring you to be a different person than you are. (A very common tendency with people with BPD.)

So many members end up in marriages years later realizing how much they’ve given up of themselves for their partners and feeling like they’ve lost out on years of their lives.

It started very insidiously. “OK, I won’t watch the game with my pals because you don’t like me being away from you and you hate football.” And little by little, their lives, over time, had become completely revolving around their partner’s whims and desires.

Don’t let this happen to you.

[SchrödingerCat]

Thank you!
I will try using these strategies if and when I get a chance

[JadedEmpath]

Yes! I love Cat Familiar's reply. I just also want to add, since it sounds like you are just beginning this journey.

You are probably going to feel like resentful, and like you are missing something. You ask about how you should feel when she thinks she is doing you a favor and supporting you by "letting" you do what you need to do. If I am hearing you correctly, I can really relate to the twinge of irritation and the desire to argue that irrational logic in my stomach when my s/o says something dumb like that. You wont win. Esp. when you are having to first set the boundaries Cat Familiar is describing. There is no logic. You must always resist the urge to argue or help her see reason. Always be very specific and intentional with your words when you have to set a boundary or say something triggering.

 I like to argue, like I intentionally get into debates with others over politics and philosophy etc., so it was a real struggle for me personally to learn not to argue logic with my s/o. I am hoping if you are like me this might save you some time

[SchrödingerCat]

JadedEmpath, oh yes arguing logic with SO never seems like a good idea and I did have to learn that.

What exhausts me is the constant validation and agreement I have to have with my SO on what I think are really minor things. And if I do get frustrated and do not want to validate it at least immediately, it doesn't end well. And it is the getting drained and exhausted that worries me. She is able to reset after an episode of validation, but it has made me "jaded", as your name suggests.
And being specific and intentional with language consistently is hard, and it becomes like walking on eggshells then.

Yes, I like debates too, but as you can see, by SO hates them.

I am sorry, I might just be ranting/venting at this point ...

[once removed]

people with bpd, in general, are very needy.

so needing constant attention and reassurance is very much a given 

its a tricky balance. a person that needs attention and reassurance on that level is inherently an insecure person, and there isnt a level of attention or reassurance that will satisfy or erase that insecurity - its also not sustainable to try. at the same time, yeah, extra reassurance is sort of a "need" of your partner. its sort of like if you preferred detailed planning, and everything scheduled to a t, and your partner prefers total spontaneity, changing plans on a whim. its a balance.

what people with bpd need, in general, is overall relationship security. im talking about the environment you build your relationship in, and building trust.

because youll still have a person that needs reassurance and attention. but there are ways to give it that dont reinforce bad behavior, dont exhaust you, and dont slowly build resentment between the two of you.

i had a very clingy girlfriend who wanted to spend wayyyy more time together than i did. we spent days on end together, and i resented it. yet wed have fights where shed proclaim that we dont spend enough time together. and id argue, id calculate how much time we spent together, id lecture her about what a "normal" amount of time to spend with a partner is, etc. i was missing the point. what my partner was saying was highly exaggerated (as someone with bpd will tend to do) but reading between the lines, it was her neediness, her need for reassurance and attention that was manifesting. she wanted to feel desired, and that i wanted to spend time with her. maybe she wanted to go on a fancy date! maybe it was her (not especially constructive) way of saying she wanted to feel closer to me! people with bpd are not only needy, they are bad at communicating their needs, and they tend to choose alienating ways of trying to have them met. when you listen, really listen, to the need thats behind the words or the acting out, there are a number of ways to address it that dont involve driving yourself crazy.

used to be spent either on her feelings or she tried to get my attention through a variety of methods.

can you tell us more about this.

[SchrödingerCat]

I guess because of my narrow background and inexperience, I might not be able to relate to what the need might be if it is not communicated but instead comes out as exaggerated statements.
It almost seems like a chicken and egg problem: We spend time validating and hearing emotions, which makes at least me exhausted and reduces time spent otherwise, so we spend less time bonding and connecting. This obviously feeds into the reassurance and attention seeking cycle. And getting out of it without having a solution seems impossible.

used to be spent either on her feelings or she tried to get my attention through a variety of methods.

can you tell us more about this

As I mentioned above, we spend significant part of our time on how our relationship has stagnated, how we can't do many things, how she feels about the relationship etc. and if we have a normal conversation for a bit, I might say something is perceived by her as a slight, and we end up spending time now validating that or I might do an action (like taking a time out etc.) that might escalate it. I try to hear her when any of this is brought up and not offer solutions, but if this is the recurring theme most times we see each other, then that comes frustrating.
Another way is since the current week has been tumultuous, I have been feeling depressed and putting off office and personal work, and now I kind of need to complete them this weekend to get rid of the backlog. When I mentioned this to her, I get a response (quoting her): " I hope you know that you also did not spend time with me since you were drained/triggered, so I expect that to also be a priority this weekend. If that’s not the case, I do not want to continue this" . I personally see this as a cry for attention, and I am not able to communicate how stressful and hard it has been on me recently and that I just need to get my life in order.
Yet another way is if I am on the couch reading or working on something, or at the table doing something, she might ask me or try conversing with constantly. I might ask her for sometime to finish what I am doing, but she might keep asking me to do things and wanting me to respond. Then when I get back to her, we seem to have a circular argument out of nowhere IMO. Later on when we are calm, she often admits that she is trying to get an emotional reaction out of me after the quiet. And the cycle I mentioned earlier perpetuates ... In fact, if we are together and quiet, it will most likely be followed by some emotionally charged discussion about her feelings or the relationship.

[Cat Familiar]

You say “lack of experience” keeps you from knowing how to respond.

Welcome to the club. No matter how many relationships someone has been in, they will not be prepared for the ever changing rules that a BPD relationship offers.

It seems like everything is on her terms. What are you getting out of this relationship?

[once removed]

When I mentioned this to her, I get a response (quoting her): " I hope you know that you also did not spend time with me since you were drained/triggered, so I expect that to also be a priority this weekend. If that’s not the case, I do not want to continue this" .

how did you respond to this?