Discussing Therapy Sessions w BPD SO

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Hello all...

After a biblical breakdown that was a longtime coming, my fiancé and I finally split up for good; my doing. He still thinks we are getting back together sometime in the future. Not happening. Like negative happening. He has started therapy, bc the next option was hospitalization, which I really wanted for him, but therapy was the most he'd do, and the most his family could handle arranging for him. He currently went from living with me and our two children, to living with his mother, to living in a rented room in a shared house somewhere. He has no car (he crashed and totaled the two that I gave or paid for for him), and his license record is destroyed from a DWI he never paid the fines for, and his current car crash where he left the scene and hid nearby.  *

He ubers to therapy, and he has always fought the BPD diagnosis, as did his family. After just one session she told him he just has depression and put him on Prozac.   ?  But okay.   Id say he's been on it for about a week so far. I do not know if he goes multiple times a week, or just once. I hope its more than that.

But anyway... the point of my post is that we recently had a 5 hours back and forth over the course of the day, where we toggle between berating each other, apologizing for past transgressions, and coming up with some kind of solution. At one point he mentioned one of his sessions how the therapist had asked if he'd ever get back together, and when he said of course (in his mind it is of course), she said REALLY? So I was glad she replied that way, but the way he explained it was as if she was like why would yogurt back with THAT person? I get the feeling he is spending his time talking about me, and not himself. To the point where he told me she says it is possible I have post partum depression.  Thanks. I told him his sessions should foci on his own diagnoses and his own issues, not mine. I also said and what if I did have PPD? Did you create any shred of an environment where I might be able to even remotely explore that or take care of it? Did you mention that to this effing therapist of yours? Or do you just sit there for an hour at a time talking about me and how horrible I was to deflect and avoid talking about yourself. I said I hope this lady is smart enough to see through all that.

I told therapy for me is about ME. Coping skills to minimize problems I seem to have a pattern of not coping with. Making realizations. Connecting dots. Empowering myself to know that codependency is a thing and that I contributed to it in my own ways. Not to sit and discuss the varying diagnoses of YOU. You got enough attention from me, therapy is not even more time for you. He sits around all day doing nothing. He doesnt work. Literally the only thing he does is go to therapy or court. I have two babies under 2, work 6 hours a day, drive kids around, pick up/ drop off, coordinate everything, cook meals, rent my own house for us, etc.  He posts picture online of his bloody hands from playing his piano so much with things like "dedicated!" as teh caption. Like. And you have nothing else to discuss at your therapy sessions (that youve been begging for for 6 years), but me and my maybe post partum depression.

My question really is this discussion of therapy content. I believe it shouldn't really be talked about. I believe he shouldn't have disclosed what he talks about with her. It is sensitive information and can be very triggering. I believe I need to create a boundary there that I dont want to hear about therapy discussions. I want to know if any of you have experienced that rabbit hole, and how you handled it? He is very manipulative and I know threw that out there as a zinger. He pretended he wasn't, but I called him out on it.

Am I wrong to create the boundary? Or should I let him continue to tell me so I have inside shot at what he's doing with that person. I otherwise have no idea about any progress. I generally only hear negatives, or stagnation.  We share two kids who he wants to visit with, and I dont want him doing that unless I know there is progress being made. I feel like I might be closing a window of information. But I also feel like there are other options for updates than hearing what he's talking about in therapy. I feel like it's supposed to be private, not used as a weapon in later conversations.

[Duped_312]

Hello all...

After a biblical breakdown that was a longtime coming, my fiancé and I finally split up for good; my doing. He still thinks we are getting back together sometime in the future. Not happening. Like negative happening. He has started therapy, bc the next option was hospitalization, which I really wanted for him, but therapy was the most he'd do, and the most his family could handle arranging for him. He currently went from living with me and our two children, to living with his mother, to living in a rented room in a shared house somewhere. He has no car (he crashed and totaled the two that I gave or paid for for him), and his license record is destroyed from a DWI he never paid the fines for, and his current car crash where he left the scene and hid nearby.  *

He ubers to therapy, and he has always fought the BPD diagnosis, as did his family. After just one session she told him he just has depression and put him on Prozac.   ?  But okay.   Id say he's been on it for about a week so far. I do not know if he goes multiple times a week, or just once. I hope its more than that.

But anyway... the point of my post is that we recently had a 5 hours back and forth over the course of the day, where we toggle between berating each other, apologizing for past transgressions, and coming up with some kind of solution. At one point he mentioned one of his sessions how the therapist had asked if he'd ever get back together, and when he said of course (in his mind it is of course), she said REALLY? So I was glad she replied that way, but the way he explained it was as if she was like why would yogurt back with THAT person? I get the feeling he is spending his time talking about me, and not himself. To the point where he told me she says it is possible I have post partum depression.  Thanks. I told him his sessions should foci on his own diagnoses and his own issues, not mine. I also said and what if I did have PPD? Did you create any shred of an environment where I might be able to even remotely explore that or take care of it? Did you mention that to this effing therapist of yours? Or do you just sit there for an hour at a time talking about me and how horrible I was to deflect and avoid talking about yourself. I said I hope this lady is smart enough to see through all that.

I told therapy for me is about ME. Coping skills to minimize problems I seem to have a pattern of not coping with. Making realizations. Connecting dots. Empowering myself to know that codependency is a thing and that I contributed to it in my own ways. Not to sit and discuss the varying diagnoses of YOU. You got enough attention from me, therapy is not even more time for you. He sits around all day doing nothing. He doesnt work. Literally the only thing he does is go to therapy or court. I have two babies under 2, work 6 hours a day, drive kids around, pick up/ drop off, coordinate everything, cook meals, rent my own house for us, etc.  He posts picture online of his bloody hands from playing his piano so much with things like "dedicated!" as teh caption. Like. And you have nothing else to discuss at your therapy sessions (that youve been begging for for 6 years), but me and my maybe post partum depression.

My question really is this discussion of therapy content. I believe it shouldn't really be talked about. I believe he shouldn't have disclosed what he talks about with her. It is sensitive information and can be very triggering. I believe I need to create a boundary there that I dont want to hear about therapy discussions. I want to know if any of you have experienced that rabbit hole, and how you handled it? He is very manipulative and I know threw that out there as a zinger. He pretended he wasn't, but I called him out on it.

Am I wrong to create the boundary? Or should I let him continue to tell me so I have inside shot at what he's doing with that person. I otherwise have no idea about any progress. I generally only hear negatives, or stagnation.  We share two kids who he wants to visit with, and I dont want him doing that unless I know there is progress being made. I feel like I might be closing a window of information. But I also feel like there are other options for updates than hearing what he's talking about in therapy. I feel like it's supposed to be private, not used as a weapon in later conversations.

[worriedStepmom]

That all sounds really familiar.

My H and his UBPDex have been divorced for 12 years.  She *still* spends a lot of her therapy sessions complaining about how he treated her during their marriage.  Most of it is stuff she made up (remember, to them, feelings=facts, so if she felt scared or angry, it must be because of something he did).  She has convinced several therapists he was abusive and had them working on how she can "heal" from that trauma ...the trauma that never took place. 

Therapists only go on what the patient tells them, and if the patient is giving them just a tiny piece of the picture, it gets hard.  Also, BPD sufferers tend to "listen" through a filter - they only hear what they want to hear.  So it is likely that anything he tells you is skewed anyway.

It is okay for you to set a hard boundary that you are not going to listen to him talk about his therapy (and then hang up when he tries).  It's okay for you to set a hard boundary that you are not going to talk about anything except the kids.

[kells76]

So it is likely that anything he tells you is skewed anyway.

Firstly, yes, do keep this in mind -- sure, he's saying that the therapist says it's your fault. But notice... he's telling you what someone else said

Any chance it might not be, um, accurate?

I run into that with my stepkids' mom and stepdad. We're wired to believe what people say. Sad but true, we may need to wire ourselves opposite-ly for people with PD's.

...

It is okay for you to set a hard boundary that you are not going to listen to him talk about his therapy (and then hang up when he tries).  It's okay for you to set a hard boundary that you are not going to talk about anything except the kids.

And here's something interesting about boundaries.

Sometimes people think that they have to announce or describe their boundary to other people, in order for it to "work" or "be a boundary" or "be effective". Like, if my boundary is that I don't drink alcohol socially, a perception that can happen is that I need to announce or explain it to people -- I'm out at a party, someone offers me a beer, and in order for it to be a boundary, I have to justify it: "No, I don't drink socially, because it's a boundary of mine, and it's one of my values, and I do it because I have relatives who are addicts, and it's healthier for me to say No".

Interestingly, no announcement, justification, or explanation is needed for something to be a boundary.

It can be something you just do.

It can be tempting to try to explain a new limit on our lives to others. Sometimes there's a subconscious thought that "if I could just explain it to them, then they'd... respect my boundary (by not doing the thing any more)".

But boundaries are things we do that don't need explanation. We just do them. It doesn't depend on whether the other person respects them, agrees with them, or understand them, intriguingly.

In your case, as WSM mentioned, you don't have to tell your kids' dad "So now, going forward, I am only going to talk about the kids with you, and you have to respect that, and it's so we can coparent better" (as true as that all may be).

The boundary can look like:

He starts talking to you about how his therapist says you're the problem.

So, you say "I'm not interested in hearing that. Goodbye." (or whatever is most natural for you)

and that's it!

You're done. You did your boundary.

Notice that it didn't depend on... him understanding it, agreeing with it, respecting it, anything like that?

It's 100% under your control. When you decide on some boundaries for your life, they'll be things that don't need agreement or buy-in from anyone else. It'll be stuff like "I walk away when people do X", or "I politely and firmly hang up when people talk about Y", or "I don't respond to texts that blame me for Z".

...

My husband's kids' mom has many BPD traits, and interestingly, life goes a little smoother when I don't explain to her or justify to her why I do what I do... or why she needs to do certain things. I just do whatever seems best for the kids, and if she needs to be informed logistically, I send info. No amount of justification, arguing, defending myself, or explaining things to her would make it go better. If a value I have in my life is "I am not OK with the kids not doing math HW", then I can make personally controllable choices surrounding that. If she gets on board, that is awesome, and if she doesn't, I continue on my path.

...

It's so frustrating when there are people closely intertwined in our lives who are blamers, and who "interpret"  things to be never their fault but always our problem. This is a place where members really get how exhausting that can be. Feel free to post, vent, problemsolve, anything you need. Looking forward to hearing more from you.

[formflier]

I think your head is in the right place.

Don't talk about therapy...outside of a "therapeutic environment".  Basically..that means with a therapist present.

There very well may be a time when a therapist needs to "objectively" know if something is true or not...or if there are only "subjective" recollections.  If that needs to happen...you or anyone else can be part of that session...as needed.

If a therapist believes you should know that "it's all your fault"...they can ask you to come in for a session, instead of sending their patient as a messenger.

So..it's safe to say that if a patient of a therapist is acting as a messenger...it's likely NOT being done with the blessing of the therapist.


Switching gears...

If you are not getting back together..isn't all this moot?

Best,

FF

[ForeverDad]

Most of us have had a hard time with boundaries, especially before we came here for peer support and education on relationship tools and skills.  Follow the link for a variety of threads on effective boundaries and so much more.

Here's what happened about 15 years ago once I was separated but was not yet in divorce.  My then-stbEx was raging on the phone and I told her I was hanging up.  And I did.  A new boundary.  She called right back screaming that I can't hang up first.  For years I had appeased by letting her go on and on until she finished her venting and hung up on me in a huff.  That's when I realized this was a boundary I could enforce.  Blame or scream at me and I had the power to hang up.  Good start to belated boundaries.

[Duped_312]

This excerpt about skewed information.  Definitely. He has already done things like this for as long as I’ve known him.  You couldn’t rely on this man to tell you the weather with both of you standing outside in it. Even with this particular example w the therapist, he initially worded it as “she asked if I would take you back, and I said of course”… and I was like——hold your whole sh^t up. Did you just say take ME back?  And eventually he said oh see I worded it wrong as usual she said would I GETBACK with you….  I was like…………….  So yeah believe I’m aware. And I’ve even asked his mother to call me or text me if she hears something from him that doesn’t sound right. Something happened recently that warranted such a call. So yes this was a great reminder that I can’t allow his words to live rent free in my brain and then actually really take them to heart bc they are almost entirely likely to not be accurate in the first place.

My quoting and excerpts are having a rough go of it for some reason so I’ll just reference generally going forward:

About the therapist inviting me into a session if need be, I’d love that but I’d also fear it as wel. Therapists tend to get protective of their clients and my experiences and observations of opportunities for inclusion do not go well. They appear to be a set up of sorts. A chance for the other to say, “see?” To their therapist. If I did go in there it would have to be fairly deadpanned and limited to only whatever she wanted to know. I’d be happy to do that but I also feel like sometimes the things he did sound utterly bafoonish when I speak them. Particularly to someone who may be trying to defend him or protect him. Does that make sense? Has anyone experienced that before? This really weird feeling that these things you internalized so deeply sound so dumb when you try to articulate it?

About boundaries not having to be announced. Yes I get this. I think you have a point about the inclination to explain a boundary, or introduce it, disclaim it…. And I think this brings up a big problem of mine which is having to have him KNOW everything. He needs to KNOW how much he hurt me, he needs to KNOW how PLEASE READty he is, he needs to KNOW this or that. Like he’d be getting away with something otherwise. Bc they do need to be told. They can’t deduce anything humane on their own. And to me that’s a cop out. I feel compelled to make sure I’ve done my part to ensure that he does not get away with feeling nothing. And I guess that sort of ties into the boundary thing of feeling the need to “explain” the boundary so he knows what he did to get me at that place. Bc the second I do something, a “why” shows up right after. But I don’t understand why, why can’t I do that, what’s wrong with that, “I didn’t think it would be such a big deal”  that was his favorite. And I’d say “YOU didn’t think? That’s a shocker.” And we’d go back and forth. It was just all so terribly toxic. Ok both ends. But anyway, yes boundaries are a personal experience and I don’t need him to know my boundaries for them to be boundaries. He does best when I acknowledge quickly but change the direction just as quickly. His ADD doesn’t allow him to consider more than one concept at once so if I want to avoid something all I usually have to do is redirect. And he will just respond to the last thing that was brought up. . If he says something about the therapist and I’m wanting to enforce my boundary, I will just say “cool story, so today when you’re mom and the baby try to do face time could you please answer? He won’t even consider the therapist statement and will move right into the face time and talking about the kids. So I will try to do that if it comes up again.

I agree that I can behave in ways the control the situation and prevent things from even getting to that point, instead of relying on him to follow any request or preference I have on his down accord. Bc it won’t happen.

Thank you so much for these responses. They really make me reflect more and every day I feel like I realize something new and milestone-y. Some are good things and some are harsh truths about myself. But either way it feel healthy.  Thank you.

[formflier]

So...going forward...is there any situation...ANY...where you believe it wise to discuss what happens in someone else's therapy...outside of that therapy?


Best,


FF

[Duped_312]

So...going forward...is there any situation...ANY...where you believe it wise to discuss what happens in someone else's therapy...outside of that therapy?


Best,


FF

The only time I can think of would be if it was part of an exercise given by the therapist. And perhaps this doesn't only involve my ex. Perhaps if my therapist gives me an exercise to present, say, my mom... with something she did to drive me into a defensive underground bunker when it came to my exes behaviors, I might explain that the conversation is part of a healing and coping process and has been given to me as an exercise by my therapist. I may expect to have something similar happen from my ex, perhaps his therapist gives human exercise to confront me about something I did to that triggered him or made him worse (such as my toxic comments to him), and would need to understand its context so I would expect him to say I need to talk about this bc my therapist has given me this task.  Im trying to think of any other reason ... I think I am "ok" with talking bout therapy, or at least referencing it, if it him talking about himself, or it is me talking about me. I have done this before. I have said something like "my therapist is helping me understand what happened", or something like that. Right like its me talking about me. His reference was not so. So I think that is where the line is for me, generally. Bc at the core of it all what else is there really to bring about outside of therapy other than yourself, someone else, and/or an exercise your therapist may have given you try? I guess it's not so much the talking about therapy outside of it, its WHAT is talked about. Does that make any sense. I feel like sometimes I dont make sense   But I think that is more what I am realizing. But Im not sure he can handle those parameters, nor is it his job to handle them, I can just choose no therapy talk, or therapy talk. Not only THIS kind of therapy talk.