Help with not JADEing

[ThanksForPlaying]

I've been getting this "setup" a lot lately and I keep falling for it:

pwBPD: You're a terrible person.

Response 1-
me: I'm not a terrible person.
pwBPD: you ARE and you can't even admit that you aren't perfect! You don't give a s*** about me!
me: I do care about you.
pwBPD: you don't!
... and this goes on for hours...

Response 2-
me: I'm sorry for being terrible.
pwBPD: See, you're admitting you're terrible and you're not going to do anything about it! You don't give a s*** about me!
me: I do care about you.
pwBPD: you don't!
... and this goes on for hours...

I can see this coming from a mile away but I don't know how to avoid the endless loop of arguing. It can happen out if nowhere when I'm perfectly happy just watching TV or enjoying my dinner. It usually starts with an unfounded vague accusation and away we go. It's exhausting. She seems to enjoy it, or somehow it makes her feel loved to argue.

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PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[kells76]

While this isn't for every couple, some find success with (tongue in cheek) "agreeing" with the accusation:

pwBPD: You're a terrible person, blah blah blah

You: I am... terribly in love with you!

or

You: I AM the absolute worst! Can't believe I'm not on America's Most Wanted yet.

It really depends on your pwBPD, but the gist is to not provide anything for them to argue against -- to take the fun out of engaging in "no I'm not, yes you are, no I'm not".

Once you immediately "agree" (in a way that you can do with integrity or at least humor), it can (for some) take the wind out of their sails.

Interested in your thoughts...

[thankful person]

I have this same issue with my wife, but her favourite line is, “you never support me..” When I’ve asked for suggestions as to better ways to support her, “you should know how to support me, you shouldn’t have to ask that..” I’m finally realising after all this time what I have long suspected.. that there really is no “right” answer. It’s all smoke and mirrors as they say, with bpd. I used to think there was some magic thing I could discover to make her happy. But I really don’t think there is.

[babyducks]

hello ThanksForPlaying,

let's look at what's really going on when your pwBPD says something like:

pwBPD: You're a terrible person.

what's this really about?    what's really driving her to say this?    This is from the LESSONS board:

For a person with the disorder, understand the reasoning behind the actions. The pwBPD is not reacting to the situation at hand - to what's happening then and there and now - but to either something that had happened in the past, or to a kind of ready-reference list of beliefs about the world, which was usually learned in childhood.

one of our very smart members said this in another thread, I am going to borrow it.   "if you choose to continue trying to get past her deeply ingrained psychological patterns of interpreting data from her social environment, you will get nothing but frustration and upset." 

here is what I think this means.   pwBPD process the events and emotions of life differently than you or I.   They have this 'ready reference list' of how they believe things work, and why things feel they way they do.    something provokes her, it may not even be something happening currently, its uncomfortable, upsetting and because pwBPD have trouble coping with negative emotions she has to project it, to lash out, to dump the negative emotion on you.   

Response 1-
me: I'm not a terrible person.
pwBPD: you ARE and you can't even admit that you aren't perfect! You don't give a s*** about me!
me: I do care about you.
pwBPD: you don't!
... and this goes on for hours...

and in this response you believe that the topic is 'you being terrible', like this is about you, something you've done or not done when in reality its more probably the second line 'you don't care about me'.    its more about how she is feeling,... than about you.    I know its hard to not take this personally but really its not about you.   

when she finally gets to expressing her fear 'you don't care about me'   and granted she expresses this poorly... you invalidate her.    "I do care about you."    this might in fact be very true.    you do care about her, however in the moment she's afraid of not being cared for, her fear makes her angry and she lashes out, and you inadvertently tell her 'boy have you gotten this all wrong'.   

     

She seems to enjoy it, or somehow it makes her feel loved to argue.

she is getting something out of this,  first she is getting your attention, second she is getting a place to dump her negative emotions,  third she is getting you to say you care without being vulnerable herself and asking for reassurance.

I would really encourage you to not hang in these arguments for hours at a time, because in the long run they are damaging to you.

'ducks

[AlwaysMean]

*HUGS*
This was the conversation all the time. I thought validating my partner once and walking away would fix things. I was wrong. It only shifted the course of this behavior.  While it's less damaging me for being away from the presence of the behavior, he was found another way to be antagonizing about it.

I used to have the same problem with the circle song and dance of "your don't care" constantly. Removing myself didn't fix it. Now, my partner messages me everywhere and randomly says, "I thought you loved me".

I just wanted to say I feel you and understand your struggle. Not sure how to get by this either. I do understand that the BPD are talking about another time in their life but its tough having to grow a skin to deal with this.

[Methuen]

I'm normally on the PSI board, but this thread caught my eye because not JADEing has been something I've been working on for a long time.  Like you, I figured out the trap, and decided I needed to step off the JADE gerbil wheel permanently.

pwBPD: You're a terrible person.

pwBPD: you ARE and you can't even admit that you aren't perfect! You don't give a s*** about me!

This is rough. Since we have to be the adult in the relationship, it is incumbent on us to find the exit to the situation you are describing.

I love kells76 ideas .  Both those ideas take away all the power in her words.  I'm actually putting those ideas into my phone...

Not as good as either of those is an alternate approach of using a SET statement (which focuses on the second accusation since it tells you the most about what might really be behind her emotion):
Response: Huh.  It sounds like you might be feeling like nobody cares.  
Her: blah blah blah
Response: Tell me more.  
Her: blah blah blah
Response: What would be the most helpful right now for you to feel better?

It validates her feeling, and then guides her towards thinking about a solution...

But honestly, kells76 suggestions are quicker and easier, with less effort and less risk too probably.

Then there's this:

Response 2-
me: I'm sorry for being terrible.
pwBPD: See, you're admitting you're terrible and you're not going to do anything about it! You don't give a s*** about me!
me: I do care about you.
pwBPD: you don't!

I have to ask, did you say sorry in the hopes the problem would go away?  How has that worked out?  Has she stopped this pattern?

Never say sorry unless your personal value system is guiding you to take accountability for something you know and believe you did wrong.  The way I am seeing this, what she is doing to you, is about making herself feel better by controlling you with those toxic feelings of hers.  But in healthy relationships, one person doesn't control another in any way.  The only way for her behavior to stop, is for you to disengage from the game.  For starters, don't validate the invalid.  You are not a terrible person, so why apologize to her for being terrible?  In what world does that make any sense?

I can see this coming from a mile away but I don't know how to avoid the endless loop of arguing. It can happen out if nowhere when I'm perfectly happy just watching TV or enjoying my dinner. It usually starts with an unfounded vague accusation and away we go. It's exhausting. She seems to enjoy it

Don't engage.  Go for a walk. Leave the situation.  Set a boundary:  "mom, if you are in a mood to argue or fight, I am going to leave".  Then leave.

After the first time setting a boundary, it gets easier.  I used this line once (If you____, then I will leave), and left without putting my shoes on (I picked them up and carried them) so I wouldn't have to listen to another second of her toxic waste.  (My pwBPD is my mother). Without a boundary, and as long as you keep taking the bait on the end of her fishing line, she is going to keep reeling you in.

I used to be one of those fish that got reeled in. Not saying setting boundaries is easy.  There's going to be setbacks.  But these strategies do work, and using them does get easier with practice.  The relationship is never going to be "typical" because of the BPD.  But it can get better than it is now.

Just a few of my thoughts.  Maybe they aren't helpful.  Kells76 two ideas are in my phone.

[Chosen]

pwBPD: You're a terrible person.

Response 1-
me: I'm not a terrible person.
pwBPD: you ARE and you can't even admit that you aren't perfect! You don't give a s*** about me!
me: I do care about you.
pwBPD: you don't!
... and this goes on for hours...

Response 2-
me: I'm sorry for being terrible.
pwBPD: See, you're admitting you're terrible and you're not going to do anything about it! You don't give a s*** about me!
me: I do care about you.
pwBPD: you don't!
... and this goes on for hours...

I have similar conversations a lot too.  A bit less now, when I'm more conscious of what my pwBPD is trying to convey.

I think "you're a terrible person" (phrased as a personal attack) is not something to be agreed on.  It's too generalised.  It could mean you have done something which is not to pwBPD's liking (such as, they want validation but you invalidated them), therefore they will say you're a terrible person, or it's simply a projection of them feeling terrible about themselves.

So I think the best way is to address why they feel that way, which neither agrees or disagrees with this statement.  Do you think saying something like "Oh... was it something I did that makes you feel this way?  Can you let me know?" would help? 

[Cat Familiar]

At this point, I’m pretty secure in who I am and if accused of being a “terrible person” I’d just laugh and say, “Yeah, I’m probably the worst person you’ve ever met.” If that wasn’t enough to change the direction of the conversation, I’d add, “I frighten children and terrify sensitive people. I’m just the worst! And yet you love me. You must be a saint!”

You’ve got to be completely committed to do this.

[once removed]

lets start with the beginning, for some context. responding, or not responding, or being artful about it, largely depends on that.

what is the context? what led her to call you a terrible person? was it out of nowhere?

[WhatToDo47]

This is so incredibly helpful and relevant to ongoing issues I have with my BPD wife. Thank you truly!